Katsumoto:

All of the above.

There are many pieces from the far eastern flight to Africa that don't fit together.

No one is really sure where these men fled from precisely although the most vocal voices state the flight started from Mesopotamia. Dierk Lange is one of the leading historians of this flight tale.

He alleges that
1. Nabopolassar was Alaafin Abiodun. Nabopolassar was BC while Alaafin Abiodun lived in the 18th century
2. Oranyan was Jacob; if all Yoruba agree that Oranyan was the son of Oduduwa, then how can Oranyan be Jacob
3. The Mesopotamian Sargon was known in different West African regions by different names and yet he helped establish all these origins. He was Okanbi in Yoruba, Najib in Hausa, Qanda in Songhay.

My conclusion is that Oduduwa was Ekaladerhan, the Bini prince, who fled to Ife. When Oduduwa got to Ife, he met Setilu (Agboniregun) who was the son of Ifa as Ifa was the son of Orunmila. Oral traditions point to Orunmila as the progenitor of the Yoruba. I for one will not believe that Oduduwa was the progenitor of the Yoruba because Oduduwa met Yoruba people at Ife. The rulers of Ife who were deposed by the people of Ife for Oduduwa migrated south to present day Ugbo (Ilaje).

I can't discount the point that Sargon and his army may have fled into Africa but they are likely to have tried to blend into local populations rather than built new empires. I am not one of those who buys into African dynasties springing from Far eastern civilizations. Sorry I can't shed more light now.

Word.
Honesty is the crown of a worthy man.

Katsumoto:

All of the above.

There are many pieces from the far eastern flight to Africa that don't fit together.

No one is really sure where these men fled from precisely although the most vocal voices state the flight started from Mesopotamia. Dierk Lange is one of the leading historians of this flight tale.

He alleges that
1. Nabopolassar was Alaafin Abiodun. Nabopolassar was BC while Alaafin Abiodun lived in the 18th century
2. Oranyan was Jacob; if all Yoruba agree that Oranyan was the son of Oduduwa, then how can Oranyan be Jacob
3. The Mesopotamian Sargon was known in different West African regions by different names and yet he helped establish all these origins. He was Okanbi in Yoruba, Najib in Hausa, Qanda in Songhay.

My conclusion is that Oduduwa was Ekaladerhan, the Bini prince, who fled to Ife. When Oduduwa got to Ife, he met Setilu (Agboniregun) who was the son of Ifa as Ifa was the son of Orunmila. Oral traditions point to Orunmila as the progenitor of the Yoruba. I for one will not believe that Oduduwa was the progenitor of the Yoruba because Oduduwa met Yoruba people at Ife. The rulers of Ife who were deposed by the people of Ife for Oduduwa migrated south to present day Ugbo (Ilaje).

I can't discount the point that Sargon and his army may have fled into Africa but they are likely to have tried to blend into local populations rather than built new empires. I am not one of those who buys into African dynasties springing from Far eastern civilizations. Sorry I can't shed more light now.

Well, you are committing the same error you fault Lange for.

From your Setilu account I must ask, is Ifa a person, when was he born and when was his father Orunmila born? You speak of them authoritatively as if you are the custodian of these oral histories. There are thousands of correct and logical trace. . . why pick Lange's fantastico story for validity test on the Yoruba account.

I love oral history and I love written history but I am totally Afrocentric in both. A foreigner cannot tell my origin and beginning better than my own fore fathers and their ancestors can relate their own experience down the line. The first question I will ask the foreigner is where did he/she get the first account of the story? It had to be from oral source and from the native of course. So how accurate is the foreigner if his written story is factored and subsisted on a supposedly false oral account told to him?

In fact, this is not the best place to talk about Oduduwa myth of coming down the chain or sending a rooster to scratch the earth's surface. We have to do it on a separate topic dedicated for that.

I challenge you to the task, go for it when you are ready.

You think I care enough about Osahon's article to start discussing it? I've no interest in his article or his claims and as I've said before, had you not brought up this Yoruba-Kanuri imbroglio, I would not have bothered to respond to the thread. Since you brought up the Yoruba-Kanuri fiasco, you should elaborate on it.

By the way, I got the impression that the Oba of Lagos was your king. Since he agreed with the Oba of Benin, what does that mean? What are you going to label him?

PhysicsQED: You think I care enough about Osahon's article to start discussing it? I've no interest in his article or his claims and as I've said before, had you not brought up this Yoruba-Kanuri imbroglio, I would not have bothered to respond to the thread. Since you brought up the Yoruba-Kanuri fiasco, you should elaborate on it.

By the way, I got the impression that the Oba of Lagos was your king. Since he agreed with the Oba of Benin, what does that mean? What are you going to label him?

Akiolu did not agree with Benin on the account. You erroneously took my silence for agreement. You said you are aware of what Bello said, which is no different from what I said. What else is there to know?

Focus yourself to the task of repairing your Oba's image, and possibly Osahon's in the face of these published falsehoods. Yoruba-Kanuri link as a written and well discussed material has more legitimacy than your Bini-Egypt link.

I don't think any progress is being made and we seem to be talking past each other, so I'll just give up on getting an explanation of this Yoruba-Kanuri situation from you at this time. Another time, then.

Katsumoto:

All of the above.

There are many pieces from the far eastern flight to Africa that don't fit together.

No one is really sure where these men fled from precisely although the most vocal voices state the flight started from Mesopotamia. Dierk Lange is one of the leading historians of this flight tale.

He alleges that
1. Nabopolassar was Alaafin Abiodun. Nabopolassar was BC while Alaafin Abiodun lived in the 18th century
2. Oranyan was Jacob; if all Yoruba agree that Oranyan was the son of Oduduwa, then how can Oranyan be Jacob
3. The Mesopotamian Sargon was known in different West African regions by different names and yet he helped establish all these origins. He was Okanbi in Yoruba, Najib in Hausa, Qanda in Songhay.

My conclusion is that Oduduwa was Ekaladerhan, the Bini prince, who fled to Ife. When Oduduwa got to Ife, he met Setilu (Agboniregun) who was the son of Ifa as Ifa was the son of Orunmila. Oral traditions point to Orunmila as the progenitor of the Yoruba. I for one will not believe that Oduduwa was the progenitor of the Yoruba because Oduduwa met Yoruba people at Ife. The rulers of Ife who were deposed by the people of Ife for Oduduwa migrated south to present day Ugbo (Ilaje).

I can't discount the point that Sargon and his army may have fled into Africa but they are likely to have tried to blend into local populations rather than built new empires. I am not one of those who buys into African dynasties springing from Far eastern civilizations. Sorry I can't shed more light now.

Though there have been arguments and counter-arguments over this piece below, I would rather stick with it looking at the antecedents of Ade-Ajayi, who by the way, is regarded as an authority in oral history in Africa.

Yoruba origin controversy:You can’t just wake up and say Oduduwa was a Benin prince — Prof. Ade Ajayi
Sunday, May 16, 2004



“People don’t just wake up and say that Oduduwa must have been a Benin prince rather than an Ife king, that Ife took their kingship from Benin, that a Benin prince that they wanted to execute escaped and ran and ran to a village and you call Ife a village”. With these words, accomplished historian and former vice-chancellor of University of Lagos (UNILAG), faulted the claim by Oba of Benin, Omon’oba N’edo Uku Akpolopolor that Yoruba progenitor Oduduwa originated from Benin. Excerpts of interview:

There is this on-going controversy sparked off by different accounts of the Ooni of Ife and Oba of Benin on the origin of Yoruba progenitor Oduduwa. What is your position?

The thing is that none of us was present when the world was created, so we just accept story of creations and myths of origin as a matter of belief, we cannot as a matter of fact because none of us was present. So, we just believe what the ancestors handed over to us. We can ask questions to why the ancestors took a certain position. But if we are to find out what the Yoruba believe about the origin of the Yorubas, I don’t think we will go to Benin, we will go to Ife.

The Oba of Benin actually said that the controversy over the Yoruba progenitor was caused by historical experts in Ibadan. Do you share such a view?

I think what the Oba is trying to say is that a Bini historian, Jacob Egharevah, wrote a book and he says that the fourth edition of the book was edited in Ibadan. So, there is no contradiction between the first and the fourth editions of the book. But Oba of Benin says he is dismissing Egharevah because Akoko-Edo blood in him (Egharevah) made him favour the Yorubas.

He didn’t say that the man is a Yoruba man but that he has Akoko-Edo blood in him. Akoko-Edo people are no longer under Edo State. I think the Oba of Benin has been saying things like this before. He just wanted to use the opportunity of this book to provoke a controversy and I think he is getting that already.

He did not cite any evidence. At least those who said that Benin tradition agree with Ife tradition quote Egharevah who was a Benin chief, who actually did a lot of research not only on Benin but on Akure and surrounding areas, Urhobo and Itsekiri. He even wrote a book entitled a short history of Benin. And any day, I will rather follow that book than follow what an Oba who is not an expert in the field and whose only interest in the matter is to be able to assert his own opinion and everybody is entitled to his own opinion.

So what you are trying to tell us now is that the account of Oba of Benin as recorded in the book is not the correct position of things regarding Oduduwa?
Of course not, he himself knows that. The book is an auto-biography and about his experience as a civil servant. How did he suddenly drag in the question of Ife and Benin? He says this is because during his coronation rites, there is a point he had to take a name, every Yoruba Oba takes a name, and in every way, the monarchy in Benin is very similar to the monarchy in Ife. Now, from his own personal opinion, he wants to say that it is the Ife who took from Benin not Benin that took from Ife, that is just his own modern politics.

His own father used to attend and meet at the conference of Yoruba Obas regularly during the colonial rule. His own father did not object to this but he, from his own point of view of politics, thinks it is departure from his own status to say that Ife monarchy is derived from Benin monarchy.

Does it mean from all these, Oba of Benin is playing politics?
Of course he is playing politics. From where did he get his own information?
He said from his own studies?

What studies? What did he study that was not available to Egharevah? How can his own studies in Benin tell him more about Ife than Ife people themselves?
Omon’oba’s contention was that Oduduwa could not have been the father of Yoruba kings?

Yes, on what evidence, you don’t say something without evidence to back it up. The Yoruba say that Oduduwa came from somewhere in the far East, others say he descended from heaven like Johnson wrote. What did the Oba of Benin study? Did he study Johnson? Did he study Egharevah? Did he study the historians of Ife who had written about Ife, the cradle of Yoruba and so on? Although I say that myths of origin is a matter of belief and because none of us was present there, some beliefs are more credible than others, so you go by probability, there is no certainty in history, you go by probability and many people will say the story told about Ife in Benin is less likely to be credible than the story told about Ife in Ife.

The Oba of Benin went further in the book by saying that the modern historians tried to confuse Oduduwa with Orunmila?

On what basis did he say that because Orunmila used figures 16, the latest figure in Ifa? We have 16 Odu and people have pointed out that modern computer goes more by the figure 16 than the figure 10 or 12. In English, you will rather say ten or eleven. The Yorubas in anticipating computer science in their own mathematics, use 16. 16 is the figure that is 2x2x2x2.

What you are trying to tell us is that Oduduwa is not different from Orunmila?
Oduduwa is different from Orunmila. Orunmila founded Ifa and that is the religious basis of the Yoruba, but Oduduwa is reckoned with as introducing monarchical system, the obaship and the culture. You see, people don’t just wake up one day and say that Oduduwa must have been a Benin prince rather than an Ife king that Ife took their kingship from Benin, that a Benin prince that they wanted to execute escaped ran and ran to a village and you call Ife a village.

The thing is that people who studied languages say that Yoruba must have been spoken for about 4000 years in order to explain the similarity surrounding languages so the people who used to say that Yoruba people migrated from Middle East backed up their research work because the Yoruba people themselves who speak Yoruba language must have been here a long time ago, we have dug up a skeleton near Akure which was said to be the oldest skeleton that has been found, it s about a thousand and nine hundred years old.

So, we then conclude that the myths around Oduduwa must be myths about kingship. That is the tradition, they derive from Ife. If you go to Oyo, the people there believe they are from Ife. Only the Ijebus are disputing that they are from Ife. Again, that is probably because of the modern politics of the current Awujale who does not want to agree with other Yoruba obas, that they came from Ife.

Now, who is the Oba of Benin to come and tell the Yorubas what they should believe about themselves? I think it is very very wrong and impertinent to assume that you know more about the Yoruba people than the Yoruba know about themselves. On what basis? What information could he have? When he says from his studies, what did he study? What books? Is it in the colonial days or before then or is the books written by educated Yoruba people of the 19th century?

Another dimension was added to the controversy by the Oba of Lagos who said that he believes the story of Omon’oba of Benin?'

Yes, because Lagos itself used to be a Benin colony. If you go to Lagos, you have the evidence of the Benin connection, some of the places in Lagos, I mean the names of places, evidently shw the Benin connection. The Benin says that Eko means Oko, a farm and nobody is disputing that. So, nobody says that the monarchy in Lagos is derived from Ife even though there are other subordinate chiefs in the villages outside Lagos on the road to Badagry, as an example, who believe that their ancestors came from Ife. But we do know that the kingship of Lagos, the Oba of Lagos derives more from Benin than from Ife.

The Oba of Benin also said that Oduduwa could not have been the father of Yoruba nation because he said that before the arrival of Oduduwa in Ife, the Ifes had had five rulers?

This is also emphasising kingship, not the coming of the people. Oduduwa represents the coming of monarchy, and not the coming of the Yoruba people. We acknowledge this fact, but to say that Oduduwa has seven children, one was deformed, anther a cripple and so on, I don’t agree.

There are several traditions and what we need really is a more intensive and more extensive research so that we can collate all these stories and interprete them in the light of what we know, in the light of chronology, for example, in the light of what we know about slave trade. The trend is that there is enough evidence that Ife is the origin of Yoruba people.

If the Oyo people can say that their coronation rites will not be complete until they go to Ife to take certain paraphernalia to complete the coronation, they are not disputing the fact that Oranmiyan was the founder of Oyo, the same Oranmiyan the Yoruba people believe founded the Benin kingship and he started from Ife. We now have to interprete all these in the light of what we know about others, what we know about Benin and so on. So, what we need is more research and not political speculation such as the Oba of Benin is trying to provoke.

From your own research, is there any link between Ogiso dynasty in Benin and Oduduwa dynasty?

The Yoruba believe and I don’t think the Oba of Benin is in position to dispute that, that Oranmiyan was an Ife prince, the other people will say he is the eldest or the youngest of Oduduwa’s sons. This is immaterial but there is no doubt that Oranmiyan founded Oyo and he also founded Benin and later on he returned to Ile-Ife where “Opa Oranyan” (Oranya staff) is still located.

From what you have been saying, you believe the story as told by the Ooni of Ife?
Yes, I believe the story as told by the Ooni of Ife. It is better founded than what the Oba of Benin is trying to tell Nigerians. The Oba of Benin has no locus standi, as it were, to tell the story of Oranmiyan.

And what he is trying to deny, his own father accepted for many years and took his place among Yoruba obas without questioning and this is what Benin well known historians Egharevah told us. You cannot just come along with no evidence at all because you are an oba to say that your father was wrong, that Egharevah had Akoko-Edo blood in him and therefore was wrong and from your own studies, what did he study?

Was it in Cambridge that he studied and discovered this or from the two or three months coronation rites he underwent? Let him come out with the historian who taught him that during his coronation rites, he has been touting this for long, he just wants to provoke controversy, that is why he dragged in the story in the book about his life which is not relevant to the book. He is evidently playing politics.

I was pretty disappointed in Ade-Ajayi's response. He got several things wrong not just factually, but also logically. I also suspect that he's not familiar with the scholarship on Egharevba, what Egharevba actually wrote, and also didn't actually read what the Oba of Benin wrote.

PhysicsQED: I was pretty disappointed in Ade-Ajayi's response. He got several things wrong not just factually, but also logically. I also suspect that he's not familiar with the scholarship on Egharevba, what Egharevba actually wrote, and also didn't actually read what the Oba of Benin wrote.

Not Ade-Ajayi that I know. If he had not read Oba of Benin's book, he would not grant the interview. From the interview, he dismissed the book as an autobiography which was lacking in evidence as a historical piece. That at least showed he was familiar with the position of the Oba.

It would be highly unlikely that Ade-Ajayi was not familiar with Jacob Egharevba scholarship while at he same time making reference to his piece A short History of Benin.

bayooooooo:

Not Ade-Ajayi that I know. If he had not read Oba of Benin's book, he would not grant the interview. From the interview, he dismissed the book as an autobiography which was lacking in evidence as a historical piece. That at least showed he was familiar with the position of the Oba.

It would be highly unlikely that Ade-Ajayi was not familiar with Jacob Egharevba scholarship while at he same time making reference to his piece A short History of Benin.

The thing is he couldn't distinguish between Akoko-Edo and Edo-Akure, and actually seemed to think there was no difference between the 1st and 4th editions of Egharevba's book. I don't think he did his 'required reading' but I'll limit my criticism to just that, since I respect the man. Anyway, I get where he's coming from with his comments, but I don't really agree with his logic or the factual quality of some of his other statements (such as those about Oba Akenzua II).

I don't think I have much interest in this thread anymore though, so good night.

To claim that Egharevba was right to continuously revise his books was another gaffe .Ade-Ajayi did not explain the kind of revision and their basis expected of a professional. The revisions were not based on credible evidence and were largely introduction of materials that suited his fancy, pet theories and his mentors. All these are evident in his works. He was continuously challenged for his biases. Even in his later life, Egharevba stated that and I quote that "..Oduduwa was not a Yoruba man. Oduduwa found the yorubas already living in Ife when he arrived"(Text of interview 3rd May 1975). I am sure that if Ade-Ajayi (and the yorubas whose cause he is championing) were aware of this , he(they) will start having a second thought on calling him for evidence to support their case.

EWAEN EDOGHIMIOYA
B.A(Hons) & M.A.History
Member,Institute for Benin Studies,
18 Ezoti Street,
Benin City.

http://www.edo-nation.net/edoghimioya1.htm

Beaf:

EWAEN EDOGHIMIOYA
B.A(Hons) & M.A.History
Member,Institute for Benin Studies,
18 Ezoti Street,
Benin City.

http://www.edo-nation.net/edoghimioya1.htm

He may be right or wrong. Like I said, there have been arguments and counter-arguments, I am sticking with Ade-Ajayi based on his qualifications, scholarship and the fact he is well known for oral history, which if this issue will be resolved, is the centre piece of the controversy surrounding the obaship either in Ife or Benin.

One thing I know for sure, there must have been a somewhat cordial relationship between the Benin and Oyo Empires as I have not come across any material that document war between them.

^
During the time of Ekhaladeran (Izoduwa) and Ogiso Owodo, there was only an Edo Empire (which had been in existence for centuries. There was no Oyo Empire yet, so how could there have been war between them?

Beaf:

EWAEN EDOGHIMIOYA
B.A(Hons) & M.A.History
Member,Institute for Benin Studies,
18 Ezoti Street,
Benin City.

http://www.edo-nation.net/edoghimioya1.htm

I thought about posting that, but the author's tone/attitude is too disrespectful toward Egharevba, in all honesty. Egharevba is still rightly regarded highly by his people and is not just any other author.

PhysicsQED:

I thought about posting that, but the author's tone/attitude is too disrespectful toward Egharevba, in all honesty. Egharevba is still rightly regarded highly by his people and is not just any other author.

Dude, I still find it difficult to forgive you for telling that story against me. There is no pain worse than the pain felt when falsely accused.

That said, yes I agree that the authors tone is disrespectful and not very polished. However, he was able to quote an interview Egharevba had (as well as the date), for that one can overlook the authors manners (which are no better than Ade-Ajayi's, with his direspectful tirades against the Oba who is a cultural icon).

Beaf: ^
During the time of Ekhaladeran (Izoduwa) and Ogiso Owodo, there was only an Edo Empire (which had been in existence for centuries. There was no Oyo Empire yet, so how could there have been war between them?

Edo became an empire after Ewuare came to power.

Some written documents suggest that relations between Benin and Oyo, when communication was actually maintained between the two, were cordial. Egharevba states that there was one Benin-Oyo war which ended in stalemate and an agreement about territorial boundaries however. Interestingly enough there is written mention in an old document of Benin warring with a kingdom designated as 'Isago' which earlier scholars interpreted as meaning Shango which the Edo call Esago and therefore as a reference to Oyo, but which modern scholars (such as John K. Thornton) identify as one of multiple very similar names which refer to the Nupe kingdom. Robin Law's analysis of this claim (in his book on Oyo) by Egharevba in the context of other history makes me think that it was Oyo however.

Beaf:

Dude, I still find it difficult to forgive you for telling that story against me. There is no pain worse than the pain felt when falsely accused

I did go overboard in my accusations (of full blown ethnic bigotry) and should have just said that I didn't think the comment was appropriate, even if the guy you were arguing with was bigoted himself. I take back my accusation though.

PhysicsQED:

I did go overboard in my accusations (of full blown ethnic bigotry) and should have just said that I didn't think the comment was appropriate, even if the guy you were arguing with was bigoted himself. I take back my accusation though.

No qualms.
You should also know that there are a few copycat beafs around too that could be mistaken for me.
I consider myself an Edo man by ancestory, so it would be odd for me to say anything derogatory about Edo people. Anyways, let all that pass.

--Hugs PhysicsQED--

Beaf: ^
During the time of Ekhaladeran (Izoduwa) and Ogiso Owodo, there was only an Edo Empire (which had been in existence for centuries. There was no Oyo Empire yet, so how could there have been war between them?

Of course, if oral history claimed that Oduduwa children founded empires, I don't expect the empires to predate Oduduwa.
But my contention is that at a point in time, both empires existed side by side without documented hostilities or wars.

I personally believe the history of Ibini is filled with a lot of half-truths, and innuendos. I'd rather believe the assertion that Yorubas came from somewhere in the far east, than believe the Ibini version of history... If Ibini created the monarchy system in Ife - then, Ife should be the one paying tributaries to Ibini - and not the other way round (as Eko used to do). And the Oba of Lagos saying, he believes the Ibini story - shows why his Kingdom is only little Lagos Island, and probably other Aworilands in Lagos - we the Ijebus in Lagos, see Awujale as our King, and Ijebu Ode as our capital. The Obaship of Eko is just political - his control starts and ends on Lagos Island (no disrespect to the Oba).

The well respected professor emeritus, Prof. Ade Ajayi (arguably the greatest historian of Nigerian descent) already set the records straight - and the Oba of Benin should know better, rather than politicize everything.

I also think Ibini history is overrated!! How can you conquer Eko - yet went through Ijebu land, but never deem it right to conquer us along the way?? It shows that the story of Ibini conquering Eko has a lot of half-truths in the mix....

bayooooooo:

Of course, if oral history claimed that Oduduwa children founded empires, I don't expect the empires to predate Oduduwa.
But my contention is that at a point in time, both empires existed side by side without documented hostilities or wars.

Well Oyo empire rose when the Benin empire was falling. that hits at something don't you think.

shymmex:

I also think Ibini history is overrated!! How can you conquer Eko - yet went through Ijebu land, but never deem it right to conquer us along the way??..

And who says they didn't ?

There are books that have been written about this stuff you know. Books by Yoruba historians and oyibos too rather than the "Ibinis ". You can find out for yourself.

shymmex: I personally believe the history of Ibini is filled with a lot of half-truths, and innuendos. I'd rather believe the assertion that Yorubas came from somewhere in the far east, than believe the Ibini version of history... If Ibini created the monarchy system in Ife - then, Ife should be the one paying tributaries to Ibini - and not the other way round (as Eko used to do). And the Oba of Lagos saying, he believes the Ibini story - shows why his Kingdom is only little Lagos Island, and probably other Aworilands in Lagos - we the Ijebus in Lagos, see Awujale as our King, and Ijebu Ode as our capital. The Obaship of Eko is just political - his control starts and ends on Lagos Island (no disrespect to the Oba).

The well respected professor emeritus, Prof. Ade Ajayi (arguably the greatest historian of Nigerian descent) already set the records straight - and the Oba of Benin should know better, rather than politicize everything.

I also think Ibini history is overrated!! How can you conquer Eko - yet went through Ijebu land, but never deem it right to conquer us along the way?? It shows that the story of Ibini conquering Eko has a lot of half-truths in the mix....

The exact nature of the political and military engagements among these states is unclear; oral histories collected from the courts of Owo, Ijebu, and Benin provide divergent commentaries on this subject. While Benin claims to have placed Ijebu under its dominion during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, Ijebu's own traditions dispute this. By the seventeenth century, Benin controlled the coast from the southern Niger Delta to at least the eastern edge of Ijebu's territory, but it is unclear what political influence the Edo court had upon the Ijebu heartland in the interior. Owo, Benin's neighbor to the northwest, appears to have intermittently found itself under the suzerainty of the obas. Given the Edo origins of many aspects of Owo's courtly culture, it is clear that the diplomatic relationship between the two kingdoms was intimate, and not entirely equitable: royal Edo histories speak of Osogboye, the sixteenth-century ruler of Owo who visited the Benin court to adopt highly prestigious forms of Edo courtly culture. Not surprisingly, this version of events is contested by Owo historians, who assert that Osogboye traveled to Benin to learn military techniques that would better protect his kingdom from Edo aggression. Altogether, these conflicting historical perspectives suggest that the similarities which exist between the Yoruba states and their Edo counterpart can be attributed to a combination of factors: the forcible influence of Benin, the assertion of common origins at Ife, and the desire of less powerful kingdoms to strengthen themselves and enrich their status by incorporating the traditions of their adversary.

PhysicsQED:

And who says they didn't ?

There are books that have been written about this stuff you know. Books by Yoruba historians and oyibos too rather than the "Ibinis ". You can find out for yourself.

Can you back this up with academic proofs?? As far I know, there is no Ibini influence on the Ijebu culture - but there's Ijebu influence on Ibini culture (through the Itsekiris).

Arosa:
Well Oyo empire rose when the Benin empire was falling. that hits at something don't you think.

Who was the first Oba of Ibini?

Arosa:
The exact nature of the political and military engagements among these states is unclear; oral histories collected from the courts of Owo, Ijebu, and Benin provide divergent commentaries on this subject. While Benin claims to have placed Ijebu under its dominion during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, Ijebu's own traditions dispute this. By the seventeenth century, Benin controlled the coast from the southern Niger Delta to at least the eastern edge of Ijebu's territory, but it is unclear what political influence the Edo court had upon the Ijebu heartland in the interior. Owo, Benin's neighbor to the northwest, appears to have intermittently found itself under the suzerainty of the obas. Given the Edo origins of many aspects of Owo's courtly culture, it is clear that the diplomatic relationship between the two kingdoms was intimate, and not entirely equitable: royal Edo histories speak of Osogboye, the sixteenth-century ruler of Owo who visited the Benin court to adopt highly prestigious forms of Edo courtly culture. Not surprisingly, this version of events is contested by Owo historians, who assert that Osogboye traveled to Benin to learn military techniques that would better protect his kingdom from Edo aggression. Altogether, these conflicting historical perspectives suggest that the similarities which exist between the Yoruba states and their Edo counterpart can be attributed to a combination of factors: the forcible influence of Benin, the assertion of common origins at Ife, and the desire of less powerful kingdoms to strengthen themselves and enrich their status by incorporating the traditions of their adversary.

Ijebus are different from Owo, just saying.

The edo and Egyptian link,

God, Benin call their God Osa; There is an Egyptian God/pharaoh called Osiris

See the similarity between the Oba crown and Osiris crown.

I think we give this Odua story too much prominence that's why every iru and ogiri is latching unto it.

Maybe if Ubini/Ile-binu had been named Ife-te-EDO just like we hv Ijesha-te-EDO,MahintEDO,EpetEDo,EgbaTEDO there wouldn't be any argument.We should go further sef cos it seems Edo is even a Yoruba word or what does it mean in 'Edo' language.
Lol.

shymmex:

Can you back this up with academic proofs?? As far I know, there is no Ibini influence on the Ijebu culture - but there's Ijebu influence on Ibini culture (through the Itsekiris).

See pp. 178-181 of Benin: Kings and Rituals
See pp. 299-305 of Royal Art of Benin: the Perls Collection
See pp. 117-120 and p. 241 of Yoruba: Nine Centuries of Art and Thought


None of these books are written by the much castigated "Ibinis".

Arosa: The edo and Egyptian link,

God, Benin call their God Osa; There is an Egyptian God/pharaoh called Osiris

See the similarity between the Oba crown and Osiris crown.

You can't be serious.

The Edo are not any kind of Egyptian and the culture is not Egyptian.

When the Europeans came to Benin, in one of the descriptions they gave of Benin, they said they saw a mini pyramid with a snake on it. I am going to google it, to see if I can find the image.

PhysicsQED:

You can't be serious.

The Edo are not any kind of Egyptian and the culture is not Egyptian.

I'am just doing my own research, I may be wrong, who knows.

Arosa:
When the Europeans came to Benin, in one of the descriptions they gave of Benin, they said they saw a mini pyramid with a snake on it. I am going to google it, to see if I can find the image.

Thats a description of the Oba's palace the whites met (destroyed with the Benin massacre). It was a building with a tiled roof topped with a copper eagle. It also had a copper snake running down from the roof.