PhysicsQED:

With these titles one can usually find a root meaning that explains it though.

In the case of Edo you have ogie which means prominent/exalted/honored and it comes to designate a chief, acquiring a second important meaning.

In the case of Oba for Yoruba the root meaning is possibly father or it's something similar to the case above.

Why do you think that Yorubas have other titles like alaafin, ooni and Olu?

Arosa:

Nice one, But seriously the implication of this is that, at the reign of Oghene, the Isokos, Urhobos and edos where one people.

Practically all Urhobo and Isoko groups have Edo ancestry. Up till today, practically all Delta state ethnic groups maintain royal ties with Benin.
Isoko and Urhobo are classed as Edoid languages.

PhysicsQED:

With these titles one can usually find a root meaning that explains it though.

In the case of Edo you have ogie which means prominent/exalted/honored and it comes to designate a chief, acquiring a second important meaning.

In the case of Oba for Yoruba the root meaning is possibly father or it's something similar to the case above.

You could be right in that case. Perhaps Eweka brought it with him. But have you cleared that with people who a deeply steeped in ancient spoken Yoruba?
There is always the possibility that the name is neither of Edo nor Yoruba origins. It could even be Nupe or something.

shymmex:

He's just being ignorant, and I doubt Jason123 is Itsekiri - he's from his alter ego, Alh_harem's tribe (all tribes in Nigeria).

No sane person will ever accept the Oba of Benin's story - it has more to do with politics than the real history... If Ibini begot Oyo, then Oyo must have been a badazz not to pay tributaries to Ibini. History showed us that, it was the other way round.

Oba of ibini's assertion is the same as the Awujale's assertion that: 'Ijebus are not Yorubas' - pure fallacies..

The Oba of Benin's story doesn't achieve an aim of placing his throne on a higher position or in a more important place in a hierarchy than others though - if that were ever even an aim/intention. So I don't see how it can be read as indicating who pays tribute to who.

Beaf:

Practically all Urhobo and Isoko groups have Edo ancestry. Up till today, [s]practically all Delta state ethnic groups maintain royal ties with Benin[/s].
Isoko and Urhobo are classed as Edoid languages.

Not all the tribes there, stop making things up.

The Itsekiris, Ilajes, and olukunmi are YORUBOID!!

Arosa:

Why do you think that Yorubas have other titles like alaafin, ooni and Olu?

The word for king in Igala is onu, but the king of the Igala is called Attah , meaning father. That's an example of the same thing among a neighboring ethnic group.

I'll have to bow out of this thread and get some sleep. Later, guys.

Beaf:

You could be right in that case. Perhaps Eweka brought it with him. But have you cleared that with people who a deeply steeped in ancient spoken Yoruba?
There is always the possibility that the name is neither of Edo nor Yoruba origins. It could even be Nupe or something.

The interesting thing about the word Oba in Benin is that, almost every word has Oba in it.
Opkioba=man
ohuoba=women

Obowie= good morning
Obavan= good afternoon

etc.

PhysicsQED:

The Oba of Benin's story doesn't achieve an aim of placing his throne on a higher position or in a more important place in a hierarchy than others though - if that were ever even an aim/intention. So I don't see how it can be read as indicating who pays tribute to who.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make.. It's clear that the Oba of Ibini is trying to claim Ibini's superiority over Yorubas - by insinuating that Ibini brought monarchy to Yorubaland (which wasn't the case)... Isn't the Olu of Warri denying Ibini's claims on Warri, and Itsekiri as well??

FYI, Oyo monarchy was far more sophisticated, advanced, and superior to the Ibini system IMO!

shymmex:

Not all the tribes there, stop making things up.

The Itsekiris, Ilajes, and olukunmi are YORUBOID!!

Please, try to avoid me when you make your stup!d comments. Ok?
The Olu is a direct descendant of the Benin royal family. I hate loud, ignorant people.

shymmex:

Not all the tribes there, stop making things up.

The Itsekiris, Ilajes, and olukunmi are YORUBOID!!

Remove Itsekiris from that list. they may speak yoruba but they have edo blood in their veins. another edo tribe that speak yoruba are the Usen peeps.

Beaf:

Please, try to avoid me when you make your stup!d comments. Ok?
The Olu is a direct descendant of the Benin royal family. I hate loud, ignorant people.

Are the Itsekiris, Ilajes, and olukunmis are YORUBOID - or EDOID??

Why can't you answer that?

^
Stop being stup!d. You asked which Delta state groups pay homage to the Oba of Benin and the Itsekiri's do.
Please, sod off.

Arosa:

Remove Itsekiris from that list. they may speak yoruba but they have edo blood in their veins. another edo tribe that speak yoruba are the Usen peeps.

Itsekiri's don't even speak Yoruba. Just like German and English, they share 30% of their words, which will be similar to Isoko/Urhobo and Bini.
If an Itsekiri man speaks, Shymmex (who most likely cannot even speak a word of Yoruba) will be lost. He will at best strain to count a word or two, just as a German would strain to count a word or two of English.

Arosa:
Remove Itsekiris from that list. they may speak yoruba but they have edo blood in their veins. another edo tribe that speak yoruba are the Usen peeps.

That's an ignorant crap.

Itsekiris are of very mixed ethnic origins (primarily of Yoruba (Ijebu, Ilaje,Ondo and Owo), Edo, Urhobo, Ijo and Anglo-Scottish and Portuguese descent) and are today mainly Christian (Protestant and Roman Catholic) by religion.

In the fifteenth century, the early Itsekiris (a Yoruba group) adopted a prince (Ginuwa) from the Kingdom of Benin as a monarch, and quickly coalesced into a kingdom under his rule. Traditionally fishermen and traders, the Itsekiri were among the first in the region to make contact with Portuguese traders.

History reveals that in several waves of migration before the 15th Century, and some a little later, groups from Igala in Nupe country came in through the creeks; Yoruba from ljebu-Ode, Akure and Owo found their way into parts of the Kingdom and a group from Aboh also came in.
http://www.itsekiri.org/files/history/history.php

^
This is from your own post:

Itsekiris are of very mixed ethnic origins (primarily of Yoruba (Ijebu, Ilaje,Ondo and Owo), Edo, Urhobo, Ijo and Anglo-Scottish and Portuguese descent) and are today mainly Christian (Protestant and Roman Catholic) by religion.

Now, sod off. You are irritatingly ignorant and loud.

Beaf: ^
This is from your own post:
Now, sod off. You are irritatingly ignorant and loud.

Why did you ignore the 'PRIMARILY YORUBAS' bit?

You like shying away from the truth..

PS: I'm not loud!

^
If you are not rude and loud, then what are you?
I have better things to do than engage ignorant rants.

Bye.

shymmex:

That wasn't the point I was trying to make.. It's clear that the Oba of Ibini is trying to claim Ibini's superiority over Yorubas - by insinuating that Ibini brought monarchy to Yorubaland (which wasn't the case)... Isn't the Olu of Warri denying Ibini's claims on Warri, and Itsekiri as well??

FYI, Oyo monarchy was far more sophisticated, advanced, and superior to the Ibini system IMO!

Oba of Benin wasn't/isn't trying trying to claim superiority over Yoruba or that Bini instituted monarchy in Yoruba land. Before Oduduwa, the kings at Ife were called Orelu Ore.

I have the utmost respect for Professor Ade-Ajayi but I reached my own conclusions based on logic.

If Bini did not conquer Ife and Ife did not conquer Bini, how did Oranmiyan end up in Bini?

How is it that the son of a Yoruba king ended up king of the Binis?

Why would the Binis reject Irebor but accept a foreigner if the foreigner didn't have some divine right to the throne?

The only way I can accept that Oduduwa was not Ekaladerhan is if someone can prove that Oranmiyan was not the father of Eweka and that Oranmiyan, didn't in fact set foot in Ighodomigodo.

Yes there is some embellishment in the Bini tale but there is in most cultures.

Negro_Ntns:

Well, you are committing the same error you fault Lange for.

From your Setilu account I must ask, is Ifa a person, when was he born and when was his father Orunmila born? You speak of them authoritatively as if you are the custodian of these oral histories. There are thousands of correct and logical trace. . . why pick Lange's fantastico story for validity test on the Yoruba account.

I love oral history and I love written history but I am totally Afrocentric in both. A foreigner cannot tell my origin and beginning better than my own fore fathers and their ancestors can relate their own experience down the line. The first question I will ask the foreigner is where did he/she get the first account of the story? It had to be from oral source and from the native of course. So how accurate is the foreigner if his written story is factored and subsisted on a supposedly false oral account told to him?

In fact, this is not the best place to talk about Oduduwa myth of coming down the chain or sending a rooster to scratch the earth's surface. We have to do it on a separate topic dedicated for that.

I challenge you to the task, go for it when you are ready.

No I am not; the basis of my opinion is the oral traditions which you mention.

Yes, Ifa was a person just as Shango, Ogun, Oya, Orunmila were all people. The Yoruba deify people just as the greeks, romans did and as the Catholics do.

You state that you can't accept the account of a foreigner but you want to accept the account of Sultan Bello. Isn't he also a foreigner?

Well here is an oral source, try and finish it

Orunmila baba ifa
Ifa baba Agboniregun
...............

There is no oral tale in Yoruba about a migration from Mesopotamia, Medina or any other far eastern society. According to oral traditions, Olodumare created Orunmila and that creation was at Ife. The fallacy about migration was started by Muslim scholars, for reasons which I touched upon earlier, and latched onto by Europeans. If Sargon fled Mesopotamia in 605 BC, why did it take him almost 1800 years to reach Ife if Oduduwa was the father/son/grandson of Sargon?

Katsumoto:

No I am not; the basis of my opinion is the oral traditions which you mention.

Yes, Ifa was a person just as Shango, Ogun, Oya, Orunmila were all people. The Yoruba deify people just as the greeks, romans did and as the Catholics do.

You state that you can't accept the account of a foreigner but you want to accept the account of Sultan Bello. Isn't he also a foreigner?

Well here is an oral source, try and finish it

Orunmila baba ifa
Ifa baba Agboniregun
...............

There is no oral tale in Yoruba about a migration from Mesopotamia, Medina or any other far eastern society. According to oral traditions, Olodumare created Orunmila and that creation was at Ife. The fallacy about migration was started by Muslim scholars, for reasons which I touched upon earlier, and latched onto by Europeans. If Sargon fled Mesopotamia in 605 BC, why did it take him almost 1800 years to reach Ife if Oduduwa was the father/son/grandson of Sargon?

Ifa is a sacred manuscript of nature, it is not a person. Orunmila is a divine head, it is not a person. Yes, Yoruba deify people but we know which people those are, Ifa and Orunmila are not people.

My use of foreigner is along the Euro/Afro divide. From that angle, Bello is not a foreigner to me, whereas Clapperton is. Many people dismiss oral accounts as conjectures, but they believe steadfastly in the virtue of written accounts not bothering to critique it for gaps and omissions. I have little patience for idiots that beg for evidence out of oral accounts or for fools that flash written references as evidence of validity to claims.

To say there is no oral history in Yoruba about a migration from AfroAsia is to say we have exhausted all researches on Yoruba athropology and found no evidence. You know that is not the case. Johnson's work and trace of Yoruba roots was taken from oral accounts and its publication was supressed. Edited copies were published. The controversy on Yoruba roots is a challenge that cry for a thorough research.

The oral phrase you challenged me to finish is literal. There are many phrases and idioms in Yoruba language that are best left alone in their original and not translated to English. Translating them reduces their meaning and function in our cosmoloical understanding. Yoruba accounts like the one you quoted is spoken as a wisdom, not as a jingo. I will give you an example.

Oduduwa was said to have descended on a chain from heaven. Many people, literate in English but illiterate in Yoruba mystery, think this to mean that he climbed down physically from heaven to earth, realizing that such action is counter-logical and impossible then conclude it to be a myth and a falsehood. The meaning behind that oral tradition is veiled and for good reason. If Ife was the origin of man and the first man came down on a chain into a realm filled with water where he was aided by a rooster to turn up solid earth for his feet to stand on, then where did he get the chain from? Chain is made of iron, which is fabricated from ores mined out of the earth. If water existed before him and he and the rooster existed before earth, then who made this chain and what is it made out of?

Look, I dont want to derail this thread on Edo. . . .the Oba and Osahon and his mumu followers got their own problem to sort out. If you are interested in learning these things, then do me a favor and open a topic for that purpose.

Negro_Ntns:

the Oba and Osahon and his mumu followers got their own problem to sort out.

wtf is that sh1t? are u mad?

ezotik:

wtf is that sh1t? are u mad?

dude,. . . if it upsets you go sit yo a.s.s on a hot stove and cool off!

Negro_Ntns:

dude,. . . if it upsets you go sit yo a.s.s on a hot stove and cool off!

shut the fvck up, idi0t.
if u are upset that oduduwa is not from afro-asia or some other silly location u can conjure in ur coconut head, why don’t u drink otapiapia and die?

why must oduduwa be the one who came down from heaven with a chain? why not the eleko? an idi0t like u should even be more worried about the eleko because of the importance of lagos to present day nigeria. ife is dead and gone and holds no importance in present day nigeria. so start making up stories of how eleko fell from heaven if u know whats good for u because considerin the way nigeria is going, u will be in for a rude shock the number of people who will lay claim to ur beloved lagos when that disintegration finally happens.

ezotik:

shut the fvck up, idi0t.
if u are upset that oduduwa is not from afro-asia or some other silly location u can conjure in ur coconut head, why don’t u drink otapiapia and die?

why must oduduwa be the one who came down from heaven with a chain? why not the eleko? an idi0t like u should even be more worried about the eleko because of the importance of lagos to present day nigeria. ife is dead and gone and holds no importance in present day nigeria. so start making up stories of how eleko fell from heaven if u know whats good for u because considerin the way nigeria is going, u will be in for a rude shock the number of people who will lay claim to ur beloved lagos when that disintegration finally happens.

I am proud of my origins, Eko, Ife, AfroAsia. . . wherever else you want to add. Let's hear where you are from. Where are you from, I love telling people the part of their history thats never been told to them.

stu pid fvcker!

I believe there is element of Igbo and Igala in Itsekiri based on when I've heard them speak and the names they bear.

NB. This is not authoritative but just my mare personal observation.

Negro_Ntns:

I am proud of my origins, Eko, Ife, AfroAsia. . . wherever else you want to add. Let's hear where you are from. Where are you from, I love telling people the part of their history thats never been told to them.

stu pid fvcker!

im an ovbiedo kpataki. and edo people are ivbiotor meaning children of the spoil. i was born in benin and immiediately after my birth, my grandpa gave me my first bath with the benin spoil that i came out from and when i die, my body will be flown from wherever it is in the world and buried in that same benin spoil while my soul take its eternal rest in ehivbin.

ezotik:

im an ovbiedo kpataki. and edo people are ivbiotor meaning children of the spoil. i was born in benin and immiediately after my birth, my grandpa gave me my first bath with the benin spoil that i came out from and when i die, my body will be flown from wherever it is in the world and buried in that same benin spoil while my soul take its eternal rest in ehivbin.

. . . .shutup! mumu!! who gives a fvck what spoil you were bathed in? Get bathed in petrol if you want, thats yo headache.

tell me how your ovbiedo connects with Osahon's Egypt or shut the h.el.l up!

Negro_Ntns:

. . . .shutup! mumu!! who gives a fvck what spoil you were bathed? Get bathed in petrol if you want, thats you headache.

tell me how your ovbiedo connects with Osahon's Egypt or shut the h.el.l up!

u nor see this fool? u wanted to know where im from, and i've told u. now u say u dont give a fvck? why did u ask, if u didnt care to know? or u thought i would say i fell from the sky like u have been made to believe about oduduwa... sorry to disappoint u then.

now, u are looking for our footprints from egpyt to our present location? we didnt walk, we flew! now die.

ezotik:

u nor see this fool? u wanted to know where im from, and i've told u. now u say u dont give a fvck? why did u ask, if u didnt care to know? or u thought i would say i fell from the sky like u have been made to believe about oduduwa... sorry to disappoint u then.

now, u are looking for our footprints from egpyt to our present location? we didnt walk, we flew! now die.

. . . tell it to Osahon. He needs all the info he can collect and put together for his next edition of the almighty Bini throne.

^

noted.