^
RSA,
you are unfortunately not thinking fo yourself, you have simply adopted the opinion what CNN and BBC want you to adopt.

Do you know about the Lancaster House Agreement?

Did you know that for his first 20years that Mugabe was bound by that agreement.

Please go back and do more research.

@ andrewza,
Please confirm whether you are black or not as I find it difficult to believe that you would be criticising a black leader who took back his people's land from the racist whites who stole it.

First, please confirm whether you are black or not.

andrewza:


I care nothing for the western world. They betrayed us a left us to die. We went in to Angola on behalf of America who then left and removed all aid when it was no longer politically correct to be there.

The CIA gave south africa the location of nelson. Then later demanded his release.

There are many more betrayals committed by the west. So no it dose not bother me he is defying the west.


Has for prosper. What drugs are you on because the must be good.

Andre is a white man,he is at least honest,justwise is a viper,who hides under anonymous race to promote western policies in Africa,he is probably one of those white invaders that mugabe sent to where they belong...

justwise

South Africa went about their land-redistribution peacefully and with the interest of economy at heart hence the healthy state of their economy now.

@^^ where do you get your South African "land-redistribution peacefully" facts from? Have the full and complete "land redistribution" taken place in South Africa? Why do you think there is so much restiveness in South Africa but for Mandela's presence/intervention the place could have blown up. There are so much unfinished business in Africa especially in South Africa. Please do not mistake the relative "peace" as something to be proud of nor to rejoice in. Find out from the knowledgeable (Africans) indigenes, how they feel about the whole charade. Nigerians will never understand the impact of "apartheid" on the people hence they think about South Africa and the rest of Africa the way they do. Nigerians are inherently lazy, lacking in knowledge(politically) about other parts of Africa. Please, read up on the Lancaster House Agreement on Zimbabwe before making uninformed decision about Mugabe. Nigeria is no better either. South African economy has always been "healthy" since apartheid era so do not be fooled. Ask the Africans the owners of the land if the economy is "healthy" for them.

justwise

The west is NOT our problem, some African leaders if not all are far too corrupt, wicked and only care about their private bank accounts.

@^^ You may be right on the above statement but how many so called countries in Africa are truly "nations" after the demise of colonialism? Again, we have unfinished business. We are putting the cart before the horses. We assume that just because some "buffoons" have usurped power with their cohorts in tow, all will be well with us in Africa far from it. We have not built any "nation" beyond our ethnic nationalities hence corruption and ineptitude will reign supreme everywhere. I don't do blame the West or foreigners either .

andrewza

Another crack point.


No we would have had the land reform take place in a organized civilized process. Not kicking off experienced farmers and farm workers that where bring in foreign revenue due to trade and paying Tax. Who care where they spend there profits. And where is the source they did not invest in Africa.

The west was the causes of Africa's problems but it is all on Africa that it has continued for so long. Look at south America all so colonized but brazil is a modern country same for India Philippines extra all are better than most African states.

Stop blaming others for your faults and fix them.

@^^ The highlighted - Do you sincerely believe what you wrote above? Have you actually visited any of the countries you glibly mentioned above? Let me help you a little bit- Brazil is basically an European country just like old apartheid South Africa planted in the jungle of South America with a very large pool of "quasi slaves" Africans/blacks as cheap labour since slavery days. Nothing has changed for a majority of poor Brazilians who are not of European stock. Was apartheid South Africa any different? I am surprised that you even mentioned India and Philippines. Please enumerate how these countries are inherently better than African countries perhaps in the art of corruption and general poverty which both countries have in greater numbers than any African country. Please try to travel and stop swallowing every misinformation you hear on CNN, Fox News, and BBC et al. I write from first hand experience not from story books or pseudo-News networks. Also I don't do blaming the West or Europeans/Foreigners for our/my problems whatsoever. I know that we are at "WAR" or in "Competition" so I am not foolish to assume that your kith and kin will ever wish me well. I have perished/expunged that kind of thought from my system long time ago . I do not even believe in the acceptance of so called "AID" let alone advice from "enemies" .

cheikh: justwise


@^^ where do you get your South African "land-redistribution peacefully" facts from? Have the full and complete "land redistribution" taken place in South Africa? Why do you think there is so much restiveness in South Africa but for Mandela's presence/intervention the place could have blown up. There are so much unfinished business in Africa especially in South Africa. Please do not mistake the relative "peace" as something to be proud of nor to rejoice in. Find out from the knowledgeable (Africans) indigenes, how they feel about the whole charade. Nigerians will never understand the impact of "apartheid" on the people hence they think about South Africa and the rest of Africa the way they do. Nigerians are inherently lazy, lacking in knowledge(politically) about other parts of Africa. Please, read up on the Lancaster House Agreement on Zimbabwe before making uninformed decision about Mugabe. Nigeria is no better either. South African economy has always been "healthy" since apartheid era so do not be fooled. Ask the Africans the owners of the land if the economy is "healthy" for them.

You are the lazy and the uniformed one here, show me a country in the world with absolute peace, yes South Africa land redistribution is peaceful compared to the shamble going on in Zimbabwe. i'm supposed to encourage you to go and read Lancaster House Agreement with open mind and stop referring me to something you know little about.

Since the land is in the hands of Black Zimbabeweans now why are they still struggling? Why are they not producing enough to feed themselves let alot export.

Mugabe went into the madness of land re-distribution for political reasons, purely because the MDC is getting upper hands, since 1980 Mugabe was enjoying free ride in power without any serious opposition party until Morgan Tsvangirai formed MDC with majority of its members being white farmers.

Then the land and dual citizenship becomes the political weapon used to get rid of white farmers and stay in power.

justwise

i'm supposed to encourage you to go and read Lancaster House Agreement with open mind and stop referring me to something you know little about.

@^^ . I will not indulge you nor give my identity away on this forum about what I know, since you have already assumed that I know nothing about the Lancaster House Agreement. Ok Mr know it all and open mind so be it .

cheikh: justwise


@^^ . I will not indulge you nor give my identity away on this forum about what I know, since you have already assumed that I know nothing about the Lancaster House Agreement. Ok Mr know it all and open mind so be it .

I can assure you that i don't give a monkey about who you are or think you are.

Mugabe is a true African hero!!

cheikh: andrewza


@^^ The highlighted - Do you sincerely believe what you wrote above? Have you actually visited any of the countries you glibly mentioned above? Let me help you a little bit- Brazil is basically an European country just like old apartheid South Africa planted in the jungle of South America with a very large pool of "quasi slaves" Africans/blacks as cheap labour since slavery days. Nothing has changed for a majority of poor Brazilians who are not of European stock. Was apartheid South Africa any different? I am surprised that you even mentioned India and Philippines. Please enumerate how these countries are inherently better than African countries perhaps in the art of corruption and general poverty which both countries have in greater numbers than any African country. Please try to travel and stop swallowing every misinformation you hear on CNN, Fox News, and BBC et al. I write from first hand experience not from story books or pseudo-News networks. Also I don't do blaming the West or Europeans/Foreigners for our/my problems whatsoever. I know that we are at "WAR" or in "Competition" so I am not foolish to assume that your kith and kin will ever wish me well. I have perished/expunged that kind of thought from my system long time ago . I do not even believe in the acceptance of so called "AID" let alone advice from "enemies" .

I tried to mention countries close to the situation in Africa I could mention poland, japan, Australia extra but that would be stupid. I am know that south America and south east asia are all so full of poverty and there is massive corruption. But even so brazil is richer than most african countries same for india. Both nation slums are large than any thing you can imagine. But the nations (not the people per say) are rich.

cheikh: andrewza


@^^ The highlighted - Do you sincerely believe what you wrote above? Have you actually visited any of the countries you glibly mentioned above? Let me help you a little bit- Brazil is basically an European country just like old apartheid South Africa planted in the jungle of South America with a very large pool of "quasi slaves" Africans/blacks as cheap labour since slavery days. Nothing has changed for a majority of poor Brazilians who are not of European stock. Was apartheid South Africa any different? I am surprised that you even mentioned India and Philippines. Please enumerate how these countries are inherently better than African countries perhaps in the art of corruption and general poverty which both countries have in greater numbers than any African country. Please try to travel and stop swallowing every misinformation you hear on CNN, Fox News, and BBC et al. I write from first hand experience not from story books or pseudo-News networks. Also I don't do blaming the West or Europeans/Foreigners for our/my problems whatsoever. I know that we are at "WAR" or in "Competition" so I am not foolish to assume that your kith and kin will ever wish me well. I have perished/expunged that kind of thought from my system long time ago . I do not even believe in the acceptance of so called "AID" let alone advice from "enemies" .

I tried to mention countries close to the situation in Africa I could mention poland, japan, Australia extra but that would be stupid. I am know that south America and south east asia are all so full of poverty and there is massive corruption. But even so brazil is richer than most african countries same for india. Both nation slums are large than any thing you can imagine. But the nations (not the people per say) are rich.

@ andrewza,
Answer me this simple question do you think that white people are superior to blacks? (give me a yes or no answer) :

GenBuhari: @ andrewza,
Answer me this simple question do you think that white people are superior to blacks? (give me a yes or no answer) :

No.


Now answer this. Would you accepted that answer from a white man.

I work for the government in a department controlled by former rebels. Along side black people from all over south africa. If I did not feel that they where my equals I would not be in this job.

^ Good

Of course I would accept that answer from a white person. Why wouldn't I?

GenBuhari: ^ Good

Of course I would accept that answer from a white person. Why wouldn't I?

You get strange people that assume every body is lying to them.

andrewza

But even so brazil is richer than most african countries same for india. Both nation slums are large than any thing you can imagine. But the nations (not the people per say) are rich.

@^^ According to you they are rich nations but the people are not. So what's the point of coming from a so called very rich nation if the majority of the people are very poor ? Are you not contradicting yourself? That's certainly the mind set of an "apartheid" "successful" economy by "winners" who are on the other side of the fence. I do understand you. It's very difficult to eschew or banish such an age old mind set. It will take generations if not hundreds of years to eradicate. The mind set of the oppressed(slave) and the oppressor(master) are damaged and warped hence it is usually very difficult to reconcile both sides in the short term. That's partly the reason RSA is very restive and mindless crimes are pervasive. You obviously have a "good" heart but it's very difficult for you to empathise nor fully understand the enormity of the problems on our doorstep. it is not your fault. You are only human. De klerk finds it difficult too just like Malema will never be able to empathise with the White folks. Liberation fighters rarely make "fantastic" leadership, nevertheless, it does not mean their message is not on point or hearts are not in the right place at least for sometime . Mugabe is human and not perfect but struggle and oppression have shaped his world view/instincts given his age, quite unlike the very young Africans who probably never saw direct "colonial" UDI era oppression let alone participate in the war of liberation. Most of us especially most Nigerians and the rest of so called independent Africa will never understand/empathise with him because of general misinformation pervasive in our environment-(education) is no longer what it should be. We cannot deny the fact that he was good for most of his early years in power and to a large extent now . The MDC leadership are not exactly competent and savvy enough to take power. They are just like most inept African opposition parties seeking power in various parts of Africa including Nigeria, Liberia, Uganda, DRC Congo, Sudan(north&south), Angola and RSA. Africa is a very difficult political terrain. Our problems are not insurmountable if we change our personal values/attitudes and bad habits too .

the fact that the poor suffer in india and brazil so much is due to greed. You make a good point in comparing apartheid to those countries has there are similarities (replace skin color with class, tribe and social states) yet they are rich world players.

My problem with Mugaby is not what he is doing. He is no different to most African dictators he is not even the worst. My problem is that for a long time he ruled with peace and Zim prospered. Then he changed in to this. A man who destroyed his own country but made him and his friends rich. I don't care if people like him but to call him a African hero is a insult to all those he has killed. He is not a hero he has who has he saved. Yes he saved his people then ruined them for the sake of greed. Has I said there have, are and will be worse rulers than him around. But don't insult the dead by calling him there hero.



And yes Nelson is not a african hero he is a south african hero. I don't care if people from out side don't admire him why should they. I don't admire your national hero's.

White farmers who burnt crops and ruined farmlamd machinaery on farms they wer abandoning , together with international sanctions lead by the west, were responsible for the economic difficulties.

GenBuhari: White farmers who burnt crops and ruined farmlamd machinaery on farms they wer abandoning , together with international sanctions lead by the west, were responsible for the economic difficulties.

There crops and machinery where being stolen (they did not get any payment) by government thugs that would kill them. So yes they destroyed there own property there is no crime in what they did.


If zim had gone willing seller method there would be no problem. I have nothing against land reform but the method zim chose was what destroyed them.

^^What you are saying is not strictly true.

However you do agree that the economic sanctions against Zimbabwe, damaged its economy right?

andrewza:

There crops and machinery where being stolen (they did not get any payment) by government thugs that would kill them. So yes they destroyed there own property there is no crime in what they did.


If zim had gone willing seller method there would be no problem. I have nothing against land reform but the method zim chose was what destroyed them.

You are absolutely right, i know of a particular farm called Honeydew, along greendale avenue in Harare, its a big farm with supper market attached to it, when the war vets started the madness of invading farms, beating up or kill white farmers, the owner quickly sold the farm to a black Zimbabwean business man because the farm is being attacked.
The black Zimbabweans working there lost their jobs because the new owner got no clue how to run it.

That was when the staple food crisis started because the white farmer have stopped producing, the ZANUF top party officials who took over those farms got no interest in farming. The economy took a turntable, crime went up, power supply being rationed for the first time in Zimbabwe, queue for petrol gets longer and longer and Zimbabweans immigration to SA and Botswana becomes a major crisis.

GenBuhari: ^^What you are saying is not strictly true.

However you do agree that the economic sanctions against Zimbabwe, damaged its economy right?

To you a english saying "it was the final nail in the coffin". It did not alone destroy the economy (Apartheid SA had sanctions yet was not has poor has modern zim) but it is a major factor in the economy being so bad and one of the biggest obstacles in it recovering. Of course Mugabe was a fool to do what he did and say what he said and not expect a reaction. There is another saying. "Don't pull the tigers tail unless you prepared for the claw." Mugabe pulled the wests tail and they responded.

Do you think SA is nice to the west because we like them. Because you should now they have no friends here. But we know that with out them (and there trade) we would not survive.

UK blocked almost all attempts at sanctions on South Africa, so, there is no comparision.

I believe that 95% of the blame for Zimbabwe's economy is due to the sanctions.

I am proud that Mugabe decided to take a stance against the West and show them that African leaders are sometimes capable of defying them and charting their own course.

GenBuhari: UK blocked almost all attempts at sanctions on South Africa, so, there is no comparision.

I believe that 95% of the blame for Zimbabwe's economy is due to the sanctions.

I am proud that Mugabe decided to take a stance against the West and show them that African leaders are sometimes capable of defying them and charting their own course.

Yes SA had support from both the UK and USA but that dried up and we where left with out a friend in the word by the 80s

There are other problems.
Lake of foreign investors government polices
Poor image thanks to the land reform
Sudden loss of major trade (thanks to badly run land reform)
Loss of skilled works fleeing tough economic conditions
Massive corruption
Extra
Sanction are only one of many things causing the trouble but it is the biggest thing preventing recovery

Was it a brave thing to stand up to the west? Yes
Was it smart? No
Was it the right thing to do? Looking at the out come no. It was a stupid move that he knew would end badly for him.

Mugabe can not be called a african hero. Because he only cares about his tribe. The things he has done toblack Africans he worse than what he did to the whites.

GenBuhari: UK blocked almost all attempts at sanctions on South Africa, so, there is no comparision.

I believe that 95% of the blame for Zimbabwe's economy is due to the sanctions.

I am proud that Mugabe decided to take a stance against the West and show them that African leaders are sometimes capable of defying them and charting their own course.

Yes SA had support from both the UK and USA but that dried up and we where left with out a friend in the word by the 80s

There are other problems.
Lake of foreign investors government polices
Poor image thanks to the land reform
Sudden loss of major trade (thanks to badly run land reform)
Loss of skilled works fleeing tough economic conditions
Massive corruption
Extra
Sanction are only one of many things causing the trouble but it is the biggest thing preventing recovery

Was it a brave thing to stand up to the west? Yes
Was it smart? No
Was it the right thing to do? Looking at the out come no. It was a stupid move that he knew would end badly for him.

Mugabe can not be called a african hero. Because he only cares about his tribe. The things he has done toblack Africans he worse than what he did to the whites.

GenBuhari: UK blocked almost all attempts at sanctions on South Africa, so, there is no comparision.

I believe that 95% of the blame for Zimbabwe's economy is due to the sanctions.

I am proud that Mugabe decided to take a stance against the West and show them that African leaders are sometimes capable of defying them and charting their own course.

its nor due to sanctions but mismanagement

things in zim started to go down slowly from 1990 and mugabe hi jacked the idea to redistribute land from the war vets who were now threating to topple mugabe and his close friends, there were asking for the pieace of cake mugabe was eating saying during the war you promised us land and its only you mugabe and friends eating what about us. They started camping in white owned farms wanting to forced mugabe to deal with the issue. Mugabe was now in a tight position he knew that he was going to lose the election so he sort of gave a blind eye to the farms invision and killing up to now i have never heard anyone who was sent to prison for killing those people

zimbabweans hate mugabe becoz of the way he handled the land issue people were not supposed to be killed or displaced like the way it happened remember it affected both whites and blacks of which are zimbabweans

ZIM DRILL
All you have done is regurgitated the view that the Western media used to try and discredit Mugabe.

I am a little disappointed in you about that.

What hard evidence do you have to support your view?

andrewza:


Yes SA had support from both the UK and USA but that dried up and we where left with out a friend in the word by the 80s

There are other problems.
Lake of foreign investors government polices
Poor image thanks to the land reform
Sudden loss of major trade (thanks to badly run land reform)
Loss of skilled works fleeing tough economic conditions
Massive corruption
Extra
Sanction are only one of many things causing the trouble but it is the biggest thing preventing recovery

Was it a brave thing to stand up to the west? Yes
Was it smart? No
Was it the right thing to do? Looking at the out come no. It was a stupid move that he knew would end badly for him.

Mugabe can not be called a african hero. Because he only cares about his tribe. The things he has done toblack Africans he worse than what he did to the whites.

mugabe had the time to empower black people from 1980 - 1990 by setting funds for black people who wanted to venture into business with or without land being part of it, Government had more revenue to support such programs than now and now thats when he says indiginasation when people are earning $350 US its obvious the big wigs that have been stealing all these years will buy all the shares in these companies that are bing forced to sell shares

i support black empowerment but the way it is being implemented is wrong

GenBuhari: ZIM DRILL
All you have done is regurgitated the view that the Western media used to try and discredit Mugabe.

I am a little disappointed in you about that.

What hard evidence do you have to support your view?

pliz i am zimbabwean born and raised i saw it myself with my own eyes

mugabe's party is ruthless people are forced to mugabe rallies opposition members get killed

this is not from the media i saw myself and also i am a victim

^ That does not automatically mean you views about and understanding of the situation are correct.

Do not make allegations of Mugabe's motives or sincerity without hard evidence.

GenBuhari: ZIM DRILL
All you have done is regurgitated the view that the Western media used to try and discredit Mugabe.

I am a little disappointed in you about that.

What hard evidence do you have to support your view?

mugabe is a sweet talker but he doesnt emplement things very well no wonder the british supported him to win the elections,for your own infor the freedom fighter in the bush never liked mugabe and mugabe was pushed to be on top in doing so he killed a commader who was liked by the fighters

the british liked mugabe charisma they thought it was easy to deal with that the commander of the fighters hence all these eyes 1980 - 1994 mugabe and the brits were in good books remember they knighted him in 1994

mugabe killed the ndebele people while the british were watching becoz they trusted mugabe than nkomo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mugabe