cheikh: andrewza


@^^(1) I never said/implied that UK leads the EU let alone have the kind of influence Germany and France wields amongst the EU members.

(2) Of course there were guns in SA but in whose hands were the serious guns/ammo? whites/settlers of course!. The so called armed MK guys cannot be taken seriously . How many settlers did they harm let alone kill? I don't want to denigrate their struggle/valour etc but sincerely I don't take the so called freedom fighters of South Africa that seriouly compared to the Mocambiqans, Angolans, Namibians and of course the Zimbabweans where some 13yearl olds were actually fighting/dying.Your MK guys were into "grandiose" targets which they never managed to disable. SA was better policed(borders) and ruthless in every sense of the word hence the lower incidences of damage/fights if any. SA may have many soldiers but that does not explain away the general incompetence/ineptitude of the so called freedom fighters of SA. SA freedom protesters/fighters had a lot of goodwill/attention from the rest of the world hence the inevitable favourable "headlines". Sincerely many were indisciplined/drunk lacking any sense of purpose hence the school kids revolted against the "adults"/parents and took certain unsavoury actions against what they saw as decadence, cowardice and blatant indiscipline amongst the "adults" which still pervades the place.
As you put it there was "lots of blood on the streets and a number of state of emergencies due to them". My friend, as a former SADF veteran, did you sincerely feel threatened [/b]or was your [b]safety ever in doubt? You can't equate street disorders and occasional brou ha ha as serious armed struggle. Do you? May I ask a personal question? Why did you not take the option of "a conscientious objector" if you cared about the "injustice" meted out to the "owners" of the land(Africans). You "gladly" enlisted or got conscripted without any qualms . Well, I do not blame you but somehow I cannot prevent myself from thinking that it would have been better for everyone in SA to feel the pain equally in order to appreciate/respect each other. As it is now, nothing really have "changed" as to make the Afrikaaners to be a little contrite, less pompous, aggressive and inherently contemptuous of other people to the extent that some of them wanting a separate nation of their own . I do not know how I'll feel if I was a South African(African) given the experience. I know of a blue eyed Aussie who confessed to me that your settlers(Afrikaaner) are despicable and horrible indeed. That's coming from an "Aussie" after his visit to SA. The settlers in Zimbabwe are far more "sensible" and less "confrontational" nowadays, perhaps they have learnt a lesson or two or maybe they are a better "breed" of human beings than their SA cousins .
andrewza, let's say goodbye and thanks for sharing your views/conversation. I appreciate your insight/views no matter how disagreeable it may sound. Have a good day.

firstly i am not a Afrikaner i dislike them actually, i find them rude and they blame every body but themselves for all the mistakes. Where the zim settlers where mostly english speaking.Hence the big deiffrense.

Has i said before i joined the navy after all the bad stuff but i can give my thought on the matter. The youth uprising where never a real threat

All so yes they where youth uprising and had next to nothing with the MK

Has for a Australian talking about how we treated the locals he should look at his home first to see how we could have done it even worse..

^How did you come to be on a Nigerian forum?

Just wondering

It is amazing how white people suddenly have concerns for Africans' plight and lives when it suits them, to use it to demonise an African hero.

andrewza:

Even though he killed Africans.

GenBuhari: ^How did you come to be on a Nigerian forum?

Just wondering

Why you talking about my country on your forum. I came here because there are a threads about south africa I generally stay out of your threads that are dealing with internal matters.

^ Ok. I was just wondering.

GenBuhari:
It is amazing how white people suddenly have concerns for Africans' plight and lives when it suits them, to use it to demonise an African hero.

I did not demonise a african hero a showed you the true nature of a man. And it has nothing to with skin color and more to do with distance and geopolitics. Most whites don't care about Africa because it dose not effect them. Since I am a south african what happens in Africa effects me a great deal.

Nwa_Nimo: . . . I think Mugabe is ten times Mandela.

What about you?

Mugabe is definitely greater..Mandela was hijacked by the West and they made a hero out of him as long as he gave them what they wanted...if you haven't seen, whites(within and without South Africa) worship Mandela and they do it for a reason..give me Mugabe any time.

But I must add that Mandela could not have played another role other than that of a puppet to South Africa's real masters...at the time of his release, white South Africans controlled pretty much everything and had the best intelligence and military in Africa....I think radically removing white South Africans from their iron grip of South African economy is impossible. Black economic empowerment is also one of the most stupid policies ever conceived...South African economy can be won back through state control and entrepreneurship...the government needs to take over keys sectors like mining, and then they need to invite entrepreneurs from Kenya and Nigeria to help them wrestle the economy back from white grip...just my 2 cents

Mugabe introduced an 'indigenization' policy. No mining company can operate without 51% of the company owned by indigenous people.

You will never see police mowing down miners in Zimbsbwe - becuase the people own shares in the companies they work for.

Compared to South Africa - where after apathied the 'whites' were left with everything they had stolen - including the best lands and mines.

Mandela helped cause these prooblems for his people - they are still treated as second class citizens on their land.

Kenyaphilia:
Mugabe is definitely greater..Mandela was hijacked by the West and they made a hero out of him as long as he gave them what they wanted...if you haven't seen, whites(within and without South Africa) worship Mandela and they do it for a reason..give me Mugabe any time.

But I must add that Mandela could not have played another role other than that of a puppet to South Africa's real masters...at the time of his release, white South Africans controlled pretty much everything and had the best intelligence and military in Africa....I think radically removing white South Africans from their iron grip of South African economy is impossible. Black economic empowerment is also one of the most stupid policies ever conceived...South African economy can be won back through state control and entrepreneurship...the government needs to take over keys sectors like mining, and then they need to invite entrepreneurs from Kenya and Nigeria to help them wrestle the economy back from white grip...just my 2 cents

Very correct,

I started losing respect for Mandela when he divorced his wife within months of his release from prison. A woman who waited 27 years for him.

secondly when I realised his personal assisstant was white

GenBuhari: I started losing respect for Mandela when he divorced his wife within months of his release from prison. A woman who waited 27 years for him.

secondly when I realised his personal assisstant was white

I dont think it was within months of his release - because I met both of them when they came to Nigeria after he was released.

I actually shook both their hands and exchanged some words with them when they visited - Anambra.(before the state was divided into Anambra and Enugu states)

I think they divorced because 'Winnie' was still a radical and 'Nelson' had turned soft.

I'd suspect his personal assistant was/is a spy assigned to keep an eye on him and report to his 'masters' on his utterances.

Kenyaphilia:
Mugabe is definitely greater..Mandela was hijacked by the West and they made a hero out of him as long as he gave them what they wanted...if you haven't seen, whites(within and without South Africa) worship Mandela and they do it for a reason..give me Mugabe any time.

But I must add that Mandela could not have played another role other than that of a puppet to South Africa's real masters...at the time of his release, white South Africans controlled pretty much everything and had the best intelligence and military in Africa....I think radically removing white South Africans from their iron grip of South African economy is impossible. Black economic empowerment is also one of the most stupid policies ever conceived...South African economy can be won back through state control and entrepreneurship...the government needs to take over keys sectors like mining, and then they need to invite entrepreneurs from Kenya and Nigeria to help them wrestle the economy back from white grip...just my 2 cents

Apartheid still affects the Sblack south Africans. The Bantu education act only lets blacks finish primary school. So Nigerians and Kenyans coming would be good. But they cannot compare with white South Africans because we lack TECHNOLOGY!! Africans are smart but we are lacking technology that whites have had for hundreds of years. I have yet to see a train, plane, heavy load boat and other things with high technology made in black Africa (If you can prove me wrong please tell me). YES Nigeria makes buses and cars from Innoson but we need more than that.

We need to trade technology with other countries so we can learn how to make our own things.

We have great entrepreneurs but we need TECHNOLOGY! Do we even make our own weapons? If America stops giving us guns how would we protect ourselves? Do we make body armor? Do we need helmets? We need to invest in research and development so we can innovate!!

You are right, he separated from his wife after just 2 years of being released, but divorce was finalised 4 years later. A wife that waited and fought for his release for 27 years, she even suffered all the arrest, harrassment brutality and hardship meted out on her for being his wife over those 27years.

That was first thing that disppointed me about Mandela.

However having said that, I still think he was played a big role in his peoples freedom from apartheid - nobody can take that away from him.

Sun of god:

I dont think it was within months of his release - because I met both of them when they came to Nigeria after he was released.

I actually shook both their hands and exchanged some words with them when they visited - Anambra.(before the state was divided into Anambra and Enugu states)

I think they divorced because 'Winnie' was still a radical and 'Nelson' had turned soft.

I'd suspect his personal assistant was/is a spy assigned to keep an eye on him and report to his 'masters' on his utterances.

nku5:
Very poor comparison in my opinion. Mugabe has hounded, murdered and victimised his own people in the name of dictatorship. The man evicted white farmers and gave his people land but a loaf of bread costs something like 1 million zimbabwe pounds or something like that. I had a zimbabwean chick years back in the UK who lost her father to mugabe's hit squads. Now compare that to a mandela who left his country after a term in office and bequeathed a legacy of unity and prosperity (even if zuma is messing up)

u idiot , u're such a fool n empty bucket.. Abi...

GenBuhari: I started losing respect for Mandela when he divorced his wife within months of his release from prison. A woman who waited 27 years for him.

secondly when I realised his personal assisstant was white

Apart from the fact it was over 2 years after his release, what about the affairs Winnie was having openly and the violence and murder her football supporters club was perpetrating against other black youth?

GenBuhari: I started losing respect for Mandela when he divorced his wife within months of his release from prison. A woman who waited 27 years for him.

secondly when I realised his personal assisstant was white

! where are u from ?
If you want to forcibly find reasons to hate Mandela do it openly. As a singer from Cameroon sang
" if you have horns bear them openly ( in daylight,not at nightfall) ".
[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTxN3M8hrCwSr5NzGCgY5jno7TM4QWe8jufgRg0PnbyxLydW3HbsA[/img]
This being said, one knows many people are upset for Mandela still being alive. U bunch of losers !

Mugabe for showing that Africans will fight back and are not always
to be toyed with but that is only physically.

Mandela was greater because he conquered the masses mentally. His philosophy was more geared at 'this is south africa, love it or leave it - but we will do this the right way which is stress the importance of equal rights and justice'...

Sure, Zimbabwe "was won" and Rhodesia fell but what is the end result? Because of his tactics, Mugabe's country is in shambles and many of his own people are risking their lives and would rather suffer xenophobic attacks in South African slums than Zim suburbs.

But I still respect Mugabe for basically saying 'we won't take this sh--t anymore on our own soil'

...I'm just rambling really lol.

*Kails*:
Mugabe for showing that Africans will fight back and are not always
to be toyed with but that is only physically.

Mandela was greater because he conquered the masses mentally. His philosophy was more geared at 'this is south africa, love it or leave it - but we will do this the right way which is stress the importance of equal rights and justice'... Sure, Zimbabwe "was won" and Rhodesia fell but what is the end result? Because of his tactics, his country is shambles and many of his own people are risking their lives and would rather suffer xenophobic attacks in South African slums than Zim suburbs.

But I still respect Mugabe for basically saying 'we won't take this sh--t anymore on our own soil'

...I'm just rambling really lol.

Where are u rambling my dear, in the jungle

snydergp:

Where are u rambling my dear, in the jungle

Lol...I was sleep typing.

If I was in prison for 27 years , I would probably forgive my wife if she had an affair.

In any case it was not proven and there was a lot of malicious propaganda to discredit her.

faithin9ja:

Apart from the fact it was over 2 years after his release, what about the affairs Winnie was having openly and the violence and murder her football supporters club was perpetrating against other black youth?

First of all, I respect Mandela as a humane, wise African leader. Reminder: for over 3 decades he was branded a 'terrorist' by the racist Apartheid regime (27 years in jail, 5+ years as a black activist in Soweto). Only when he said 'forgive them' was he branded 'hero'.

Yet Mugabe, for me, is the greater leader coz the needs of the disempowered/victimised majority were met under his rule/leadership. Before land reforms he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth as one of Africa's greatest leaders. After land seizure he is now branded 'villain/dictator' etc. To be loved by the West a leader must put the colonisers b4 his own ppl, when he/she puts Africans first, automatically they're labelled 'irresponsible/vile'.

Mugabe addressed social imbalances perpetrated by a racist colonial gvt which systematically empowered Europeans by impovereshing black folks. Only farmers who are white need complain bcoz those not farming are still welcome in Zim. Why shld poor blacks buy their stolen inheritence from descendents of plunderers who fraudulently acquired wealth from under their noses bcoz they held guns to a ppl who still used spears/bow/arrows? Now blacks in Zim can leave an inheritence for their children, a priviledge denied them by unjust policies n action done against them by colonists.

During the 1900s both Mandela n Mugabe spoke, fought, lobbied and were imprisoned bcoz they fought for justice which the black majority were being denied. 27 yrs imprisonment for the Mandela & 10 years for Mugabe. 1980 Mugabe says
"lets reconcile.. beat guns into ploughshears..let the white folks alone" so became a 'hero'. 1994 Mandela does the same and recieves same adoration.

Come 2000 Mugabe says "until resources are controlled/co-owned by the black majority, liberation will not be complete..we fought for land yet the UK gvt defaulted in paying off white farmers, thus we will take back our land by force if need be.. 2 decades is long enough a waiting period to see the double standards of the West..etc" now the 'Knight' was relabelled 'Dictator'. To me Mandela is an icon of tolerance/humanity/ubuntu, Mugabe is an icon of justice/black liberation/black emancipation.

The generations to come will speak highly of both, yet blacks in SA will stay poor in a rich country, while their agemates in Zim will inherit wealth so as to wax forward and be great. African resources abound, yet are in the hands of a few blue-eyed elite. We WANT leaders like Mandela, but we NEED leaders like Mugabe if Africa and Africans intend to be financially , psychologically and socially empowered and self-reliant. Political power alone is not enough. Whites run Europe/N America, Asians run Asia; why shouldn't Africans run Zim/Africa?

In his song against Apartheid the ex-Wailer Peter Tosh sang "Africa is for black-munn, REMEMBER". until Africans rid ourselves of inferiority complex we can never stand with other races as EQUALS. Until resources in Africa benefit Africans liberation is incomplete, until the injustices of colonialism and slavery of Africans are addressed they will always be unrest in our motherland. Until Africa has 15 or 25 Mugabe's my people will stay underfed, poor, in civil wars, dependent and semi-literate while EU nations line their pockets with the wealth of Africa. Wake up my ppl and see the light. if we dont stand for something we will fall for anything.

To conclude.. be humane but grow some balls, get a spine. Peace shouldnt be at any cost, justice is needed. Remember that black slaves remained peacefull in the West and were inhumanely and unjustly mistreated for 400yrs. Why cryout for peace/'stability' when justice is ignored. When the West sang praises for Mugabe we sang along; now they sing hate songs against him but i refuse to sing along. Don't let them fool us, nor 'school us' we have a functional mind of our own and we will use it.{Bob Marley - Could you be loved}. I respect and honour Mandela, but I would choose Mugabe over him anyday. 2 generations from now the truth will be plain for all to see.

odumorun 1: Interesting question from an enquiring mind that has refused to be colonised by the western media's love in with Nelson Mandela.

Let us be clear, Mandela's greatness as a person must remain beyond dispute. His immense personal sacrifice, 27 years of his life in a racist jail, choosing to remain there rather than renounce his people's right to resist their dehumanisation has to be recognised. However his popularity with the west is not down to what he did for the blacks - helping them win freedom, it is down to what he did for their white oppressors - forgiving them their crimes and allowing them keep their stolen wealth after they lost formal political power

As for Mugabe, personally he can be cruel and vindictive, but his courage, personal (like Mandela) and political (unlike Mandela) cannot be denied. He fought in the bush for 11 years against Rhodesia's vicious racist regime and has had the guts to seize the land they stole from the original inhabitants. Mandela great man that he is, sometimes comes across as being a bit more concerned about what is said about him in the editorial columns of the world's great newspapers than the genuine interests of the shanty town dwellers whose blood, sweat and struggles brought him and the ANC to power.

Mandela's greatness they say is down to his lack of 'bitterness' against his enemies, inspite of the terrible crimes they committed agsint his person and above all, his people. In that case since imitation is the sincerest form of flaterry, why don't the west also show the same forgiveness to their own enemies.

Look through history and point out just one instance when any Asian, Arab or African who harmed white people has been treated with anything but the most ferocious brutality. The Nazi's (white caucasians) kiled 6 million European jews, none of their leaders were tortured by the victorious allies. Al Quaeda killed 3000 Americans, they put so much electricity up their backsides, the Iraqi national grid is still to recover its electrical capacity

When a dark skinned person harms white people - they always call for justice

But when a White skinned person harms dark skinned people the call changes to the need for 'truth and reconciliation'

Mugabe refuses to play that game, that's why they hate him

Mandela plays it brilliantly, that's why they love him

God bless you a million times over.

Kenyaphilia:
Mugabe is definitely greater..Mandela was hijacked by the West and they made a hero out of him as long as he gave them what they wanted...if you haven't seen, whites(within and without South Africa) worship Mandela and they do it for a reason..give me Mugabe any time.

But I must add that Mandela could not have played another role other than that of a puppet to South Africa's real masters...at the time of his release, white South Africans controlled pretty much everything and had the best intelligence and military in Africa....I think radically removing white South Africans from their iron grip of South African economy is impossible. Black economic empowerment is also one of the most stupid policies ever conceived...South African economy can be won back through state control and entrepreneurship...the government needs to take over keys sectors like mining, and then they need to invite entrepreneurs from Kenya and Nigeria to help them wrestle the economy back from white grip...just my 2 cents

Kenya and Nigeria... Ha ha ha, deluded muds, how about helping yourselves first, Both Nigeria and Kenya has foreigners helping them develop their economies, atleast white South Africans invest their money in SA.

After killing the white farmers it didn't take long for Mugabe to beg for food from the west, zimbabwe should be left to it's own demise.

TheTruthHurts: After killing the white farmers it didn't take long for Mugabe to beg for food from the west, zimbabwe should be left to it's own demise.

Mugabe begged for which food? You must be watching too much BBC.

FYI, The land reforms have SUCCEEDED. Blacks are no longer slaves on their land. If you want to dash YOUR land in your village to a white guy, you're free to do so. Zimbabweans say NO.

Mugabe lead the way!

I'd say Mugabe(before he screwed his economy into dust) did more than Mandela did. Mugabe fought in a war while Mandela sat in a prison for three decades.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajPJ9OD7OfQ


If you still Support Mugabe after watching this, Then you're an INHUMAN BAST@RD!!!

Mugabe is filth.

I can't wait for him to Die. We'll dance till the Sun comes up!

Mugabe's Thugs attacked and hurt the innocent Farmers. The Man in the Video had to take a Loan to buy his Farm. A Loan that took him 20 years to pay!!! At the end, Mugabe's ZANU PF Thugs burnt down his Farm and also beat him, his Wife and his Son. Who beats up an elderly Man?! Savages! Savages! Savages! Savages!

What is better than the other, day or night, salt or sugar, water or food? The Mugabe vs Mandela debate whilst it is insightful, may also turn out to be inciteful. Bith men a humongous political players, and like others before them, divide opinion. People point to the land reclamation as a land grab. If what Mugabe did was a land grab, what then did the europeans do to africa, asia and America? Land manufacture? They scrambled for africa, divided it, plundered it and pillaged at will, and men with courage to reverse that are labeled 'Savages'. Mugabe is no saint, but then who is? Obama? Clinton? The Bushes? Blair? Merkel? Mandela? Mandela was a great man, but so are many others before him and among his contemporaries

Kalvan: Mugabe's Thugs attacked and hurt the innocent Farmers. The Man in the Video had to take a Loan to buy his Farm. A Loan that took him 20 years to pay!!! At the end, Mugabe's ZANU PF Thugs burnt down his Farm and also beat him, his Wife and his Son. Who beats up an elderly Man?! Savages! Savages! Savages! Savages!

who steals land from its rightful owners,murders and rap.es them when they protest and perpetuates themselves in power to rule over these same people in their own land - savages! savages! savages!

Kalvan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajPJ9OD7OfQ


If you still Support Mugabe after watching this, Then you're an INHUMAN BAST@RD!!!

Mugabe is filth.

I can't wait for him to Die. We'll dance till the Sun comes up!

and you are filth for supporting the very people who enslaved your ancestors and continue to perpetrate mass genocide against africans.