@ijawkid who is a person and who ia an individual?

@Ijawkid, sometimes I wonder what you believe when I read your posts. Yes we can hold to one verse and flog it for what its worth to reaffirm what your mindset already believes.

If the Bible says the Spirit spoke expressly, then literally it means exactly that. Now, does a force speak or guide? Spirit or Ghost, we know these are used interchangeably. Proper Christians have never had a problem with this. In German, we say Heilige Geist and not Heilige Seele. Likewise in yoruba, we say Emi Mimo and not Oku mimo. Some say Holy Ghost, some say Holy Spirit. He is the same person.

Haibe has given a few verses that tells you that the Spirit has these God-like attributes. So if the Spirit is referred to as a He, he belongs in the same place as the other 2 of the trinity.

1 John 5:7 says For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. The issue is you are trying to reduce the Holy Spirit as a bit player in the trinity. The verse above tells you they are one.

If the trinity were a pagan tradition, then it will not be in Christendom, there will be no reference of it in both the old and the new testaments verses.

John 16:5-11
5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

truthislight:
From the above i dont know what u want.
Peace though.

Maybe you have comprehension challenges - mind you, this is a mere suspicion arrising from your averment that you don't know what I want even though I spoke in simple terms. Or maybe it's a deep-seated confusion since you say you understand me, then say I want a fight, then say you don't know what I want. I suggest you re-read my posts. If you do find a single unfriendly post before you asked my to write letters to a branch office, I will apologise to you.

MyJoe:
Maybe you have comprehension challenges - mind you, this is a mere suspicion arrising from your averment that you don't know what I want even though I spoke in simple terms. Or maybe it's a deep-seated confusion since you say you understand me, then say I want a fight, then say you don't know what I want. I suggest you re-read my posts. If you do find a single unfriendly post before you asked my to write letters to a branch office, I will apologise to you.

@myjoe
pls, lets just try and not use foul language or cursing of persons, any that does i am gone since a cant be a party to it. Though one's dishonesty can be pointed out.
I will go through the post again, i supposs there is a place u said u dont need the witnesses to put u through.
Any how i shall be back, for that,
am busy trashing one dalafruita's issues on Jesus ancestry and his insenuation that Jesus never existed due to his suppose diff between matt and luke.
Shall be back. See thread(why even bother with this atheist?)
@Proo212
the holy spirit did come upon peter on pentecost 33CE and peter started speaking throuhg the help of the holy spirit.
I understand that to mean that God enpowered peter through his power the holy spirit.
It is obviouse that the spirit always go into someone and then enable the person, or God speak through the person.
Usually human are like a drain motor battery that cannot kick a car, but when the battery is then put on charge(enpowered) it can do things it can not do like kicking a car.
Dont 4get that it was this spirit that kickstartet Adam when he was just a mold on the ground, inanimate to animated person, Of couse God was the source of that power.
Consider a radio without battery or a light bulb, when energy goes into them ther come to life.
The Generator of this power or force his Jehovah and not Jesus, that his why Jehovah is call almighty(source of all power)
that explain why Jesus has to go to his father and ask for power, and latter said that all authority has been givern him(or all the power that he needs) in heaven and on earth. He letter use this power to drove away satan from heaven.
The holy spirit does not have an opinion of his own.
Any that have that power from God does things beyoun his abilities(samson)

sining against the holy spirit means a deliberately going against an obviouse knowledge of what one knows that it is God's doing. Or lying.
Like the pherisees denying and kiling Jesus irrespective of the reality befor them that Jesus was from God. But there fear of the Romans and wanting to keep their power made them to reject Jesus. For such sin there will be no 4giveness then nor in the world to come.= sining against the holy spirit.
Peace

proo212: @Ijawkid, sometimes I wonder what you believe when I read your posts. Yes we can hold to one verse and flog it for what its worth to reaffirm what your mindset already believes.

If the Bible says the Spirit spoke expressly, then literally it means exactly that. Now, does a force speak or guide? Spirit or Ghost, we know these are used interchangeably. Proper Christians have never had a problem with this. In German, we say Heilige Geist and not Heilige Seele. Likewise in yoruba, we say Emi Mimo and not Oku mimo. Some say Holy Ghost, some say Holy Spirit. He is the same person.

Haibe has given a few verses that tells you that the Spirit has these God-like attributes. So if the Spirit is referred to as a He, he belongs in the same place as the other 2 of the trinity.

1 John 5:7 says For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. The issue is you are trying to reduce the Holy Spirit as a bit player in the trinity. The verse above tells you they are one.

If the trinity were a pagan tradition, then it will not be in Christendom, there will be no reference of it in both the old and the new testaments verses.

John 16:5-11
5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

I think d hebrew words for for d holy spirit shuld help u understand that d holy spirit can't be a ghost and its not a person...

I want u to do a good research on the greek and hebrew words translated into d holy spirit..

If u want me to do that research for u from online I can....

But 1st check up the meaning of d greek word ""RUACH""....

I might not be getin d spelling right bt ofcus u know where I'm heading to...

How can Gods spirit be a ghost....??

Holy spirit and holy ghost can't and will never mean d same thing...

Like I said check up d greek and hebrew words which represents d holy spirit then u'll know what I'm talking about....

Even the meaning of both d hebrew and greek words denoting d holy spirit negates d possibility of the holy spirit being a person....

I gave u examples of how d holy spirit appeared or was felt when it fell on or was poured out on people...

A person doesn't behave that way.....

Ur guy quoted scriptures to show d holy spirit talked,guided and etc...

WISDOM which is abstract can do all that too.....

I want u to go do more research on this holy spirit issue and even d trinity dogma as a whole.....

I wuld also like to inform u that the 1john 5:7 u quoted is a verse that has long been debunked as a false text that was fixed into d new testament...u shuld know better.....
That verse was extracted from d latin vulgate......

Check up ur NIV's,NKJV,NEW english bible,GOODNEWS bible the 1 john 5:7 u quoted is totally different from the ones found in those other translations...

Thank you!!!!



Many claim the NWT has added to d bible.the KJV has even committed more blunders....

@Truthislight

When one begins to overanalyse that is when you get into these arguments....Yes the Spirit came upon Peter and emboldened him, there is not question about that.

In Acts 13, the Spirit spoke like the Bible said, separate Saul and Barnabas unto Me for the work which I have called them. The Spirit spoke and acted like a person. I don't see what the argument is. Even as they went about the work the Spirt had called them, the Spirit stopped them preaching in Asia (Acts 16:6)

That is why He is a Spirit. He can be with you and in you. You have not addressed 1 John 5:7. What is your take on it?

proo212: @Truthislight

When one begins to overanalyse that is when you get into these arguments....Yes the Spirit came upon Peter and emboldened him, there is not question about that.

In Acts 13, the Spirit spoke like the Bible said, separate Saul and Barnabas unto Me for the work which I have called them. The Spirit spoke and acted like a person. I don't see what the argument is. Even as they went about the work the Spirt had called them, the Spirit stopped them preaching in Asia (Acts 16:6)

That is why He is a Spirit. He can be with you and in you. You have not addressed 1 John 5:7. What is your take on it?

Please open up that 1john 5:7 from the NIV,NKJV,GOODNEWS bible,New english bible and tell me if its d same with what u read from the KINGJAMES version...

That's some quik assignment for u...:-)

You are clutching at straws my friend. Read the original greek manuscript of the new testament and the translation is what is quoted in KJV and Luther Bibel 1545, that is why those are authoritative translations. Do some more research and come back...

proo212: @Truthislight

When one begins to overanalyse that is when you get into these arguments....Yes the Spirit came upon Peter and emboldened him, there is not question about that.

In Acts 13, the Spirit spoke like the Bible said, separate Saul and Barnabas unto Me for the work which I have called them. The Spirit spoke and acted like a person. I don't see what the argument is. Even as they went about the work the Spirt had called them, the Spirit stopped them preaching in Asia (Acts 16:6)

That is why He is a Spirit. He can be with you and in you. You have not addressed 1 John 5:7. What is your take on it?

Guy. Concerning this 1 John 5;7.
it is found to be a new addition from about the 5th ce.
1. The context from vas 1 to 5 is on things that happened on earth during Jesus baptism and not in heaven, vas7 seems foreign.

If u should read from vas 1 to 9 as though 6,7,8, does not exist. The sense u will get is that of God talking to his son on the day of his baptism, this makes me wander if vas 6, 7, 8, Are all addition.
For me, God will not be afraid of any person or persons, we should try to make sure that we follow a teaching that will not contradict the bible from Genesis to Revelation.
That is if God is the one that will give the reward.
Peace

When we all get over our over-bloated sense of transcendental intelligence and conscious-awareness, we know deep down that We (Humans) are the problem, even the proverbial GOD had the same issues right from the get-go. Man is infinitely Wicked and his thoughts are Wickedness through and through. We are created imperfect (perhaps for a good reason) Even when a near perfect example of a clearly open-minded atheist (in the frame of Jesus Christ) comes and proves Religion for the Wicked Gargoyle that it truly is, We choose to ignore him choosing to nail him to the cross everyday by our clearly un-Christ-like actions, thoughts and beliefs. The most intolerant groups are the religious folks, always wearing Peace and Tolerance on their sleeves but will be the first to pull out a dagger in defense of God when he obviously has no qualms with it.

@largerwhenindoubt
Hey mate!
Ve any larger left? Its like am kind da in doubt here, need a bottle of larger.
Kind da good of u to drop in to see whatz up.
Never knew dat Jesus was an atheist.
Thanks for the insight.
Peace

proo212: @Ijawkid, sometimes I wonder what you believe when I read your posts. Yes we can hold to one verse and flog it for what its worth to reaffirm what your mindset already believes.

If the Bible says the Spirit spoke expressly, then literally it means exactly that. Now, does a force speak or guide? Spirit or Ghost, we know these are used interchangeably. Proper Christians have never had a problem with this. In German, we say Heilige Geist and not Heilige Seele. Likewise in yoruba, we say Emi Mimo and not Oku mimo. Some say Holy Ghost, some say Holy Spirit. He is the same person.

Haibe has given a few verses that tells you that the Spirit has these God-like attributes. So if the Spirit is referred to as a He, he belongs in the same place as the other 2 of the trinity.

1 John 5:7 says For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. The issue is you are trying to reduce the Holy Spirit as a bit player in the trinity. The verse above tells you they are one.

If the trinity were a pagan tradition, then it will not be in Christendom, there will be no reference of it in both the old and the new testaments verses.

John 16:5-11
5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

In the Scriptures it is not unusual for something to be personified. Consinder these few examplese:

"Wisdom calls out in the street, she shouts loudly in the plazas;..." Proverbs 1:20 (NET)

"Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,”and call understanding a close relative". proverbs 7:4(NET)

"Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice" proverbs 8:1(NET)

"I,wisdom, live with prudence, and find knowledge and discretion." proverbs 8:12

"Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor" proverbs 3:15

"Her ways are very pleasant, and all her paths are peaceful" proverbs 3:16

"She is like a tree of life to those who obtain her, and everyone who grasps hold of her will be blessed." proverb 3:17-18

Wisdom is said to have spirit and persons were filled with its spirit (Deuteronomy 34:9; Exodus 28:3)

Wisdom is proved righteous by work Matthew 11:19

Wisdom is said to have children. Is wisdom a person? (Luke 7:35)

"Wisdom has built her house; she has [b]carved ou[/b]t its seven pillars." proverbs 9:1

Sin and death are called kings. Are they persons? (Romans 5:14, 21)

At Genesis 4:7 The New English Bible (NE) says: "Sin is a demon crouching at the door," personifying sin as a wicked spirit crouching at Cain's door. But, of course, sin is not a spirit person; nor does personifying the holy spirit make it a spirit person.

Wisdom, understanding, sin and death, what are they? Persons?

Though the holy spirit is personified several times in the scripture, it has also be used severally in an impersonal term. Consider just few examples:

People are urged to become FILLED WITH holy spirit instead of with wine. (Ephesians 5:18)

People are also spoken of as being FILLED WITH holy spirit in the same way they are filled with such qualities as wisdom, faith, and joy. (Acts 6:3; 11:24; 13:52)

At 2 Corinthians 6:6 holy spirit is included among a number of qualities. Such expressions would not be so common if the holy spirit were actually a person.

When 70 capable men were appointed to help Moses, God said to him: "Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take part of the spirit that is on you, and will put it on them, and they will bear some of the burden of the people with you, so that you do not bear it all by yourself."—Numbers 11:17. New English Translation(NET)
Here, part of the holy spirit(one person of the three Godhead) is to be taken and distributed among 70 men. How

The first part of Acts 2:17 reads: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will POUR OUT of my Spirit upon all flesh...' KJV. Could God POUR out a portion of a coequal God?
Remember, the spirit is just one person, but would be poured out as if it were anointing oil, upon all flesh. How?

Can YAHWEH or Jesus be referred to as "the spirit of the truth"? No, it would look odd, for they are persons. But the holy spirit is referred to as such and it's fitting, since the holy spirit is not a person.

In view of the above, personification of the holy spirit in the bible cannot be used as proof of its Godship. It is not a God and will never be.

MyJoe:
Aha.

The programmed mind kicks in. A mere discussion scares him. He is only comfortable where he is the one talking away while the other listens quietly. Subject what he is preaching to serious questions and he simply can't handle the cognitive dissonance so he takes the easy way out. The alternative cannot be contemplated for one second. It's too much.

By the way, I don't need any clarifications. You are the one who does, but not the kind you think.

If i can see clearly and can read well i believe this is you saying u dont need any clearification

MyJoe:
Maybe you have comprehension challenges - mind you, this is a mere suspicion arrising from your averment that you don't know what I want even though I spoke in simple terms. Or maybe it's a deep-seated confusion since you say you understand me, then say I want a fight, then say you don't know what I want. I suggest you re-read my posts. If you do find a single unfriendly post before you asked my to write letters to a branch office, I will apologise to you.

men, ur choices of words are very interestingly diff.

And i concluded that u dont need clearifications.
U actually did say it is i that needs it.

U did sound as though u are angry.

And u seem to know the JW, all u know about them was it online?
Cus you did not welcome my suggestion to meet them in person.

Did u have any pros with them?

I for one, i talk to them a lot really.
peace though

@Fresky, Is God a Spirit or not?

proo212: @Fresky, Is God a Spirit or not?

Yes God is a spirit person.

His holy spirit is not a person, but a reference to his power that he use to do whatever.

When Jesus was baptise, God spoke from heaven, saying "this is my beloved son"
then the holy spirit like a dove decended upon him.

Are u saying that the Dove was the father of Jesus since God is a spirit?

Hmmmm!

proo212: @Fresky, Is God a Spirit or not?

God is a spirit as you have been told by truthislight.

My questions:

Are angels spirits?

Are obedient angels holy?

truthislight:
If i can see clearly and can read well i believe this is you saying u dont need any clearification

[/quote]
That was a response to your referral of me to a branch office. Got it? Everyone is airing their views... In fact, you were the one who came into my conversation, calling me dishonest while doing so. I asked you some questions to help make my point and show I am not dishonest and you responded. I asked questions again and suddenly you declared that I should go find your members or write letters to a branch office for clarification! Does that sound like proper conduct to you? Again, can you find any unfriendly post I made to you before this point? Even your brother, ijawkid; when he opened a thread and absent-mindedly claimed that Jesus preached from house to house, he did not behave in this manner when I asked him to support his claim with scripture. He hurled some abuses my way but when he realised that would not get him to base one, he simply folded his tail between his legs and bolted from the thread. I realise you had no response to those questions. Why didn't you simply say so instead of asking me to write to a branch? People have been talking about trinity and all else, did you ask them to write to a branch? You people don't seem to realise how ridiculous it makes you sound when you respond to things like a programmed computer.

truthislight:
men, ur choices of words are very interestingly diff.

Lol.

And i concluded that u dont need clearifications.
U actually did say it is i that needs it.

I don't see I need any clarification. But you may think otherwise and you could be right, too. Read my post again. Do I sound like I don't know what I am talking about? If so, please highlight the exact point where I erred or got things mixed up and need clarification. Thank you in anticipation of your cooperation.

U did sound as though u are angry.

Far from it. There wasn't anything to be angry about and I think you are a great guy who just happens to have a religion to defend. I just had to be firm in pointing out your improper conduct.

And u seem to know the JW, all u know about them was it online?
Cus you did not welcome my suggestion to meet them in person.

Everyone seeks information online these days, including you. If I got my info online, that would not on its own make it wrong, would it? I do understand that in using online information about a group one runs the risk of relying on third party stuff if he does not seek firsthand information or clarification from the concerned, in this case the JW.

To answer your question, No. I don't rely on online info. I have JWs around me. I speak to then. I have read tonnes on your literature. I have tonnes of them in my library. I even have more than those.

Did u have any pros with them?

Not with them as a people. In Nairaland, we all sometimes have to point out error whenever we can since we are all here to learn and catch some fun while doing so. I have pointed out errors when people lie against the Witnesses, like the thread where someone said the Witnesses don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, among others. Pointing out an error in a post made by a Witness does not mean I dislike them. They visit regularly at my place and we sometimes hold good conversations.

I for one, i talk to them a lot really.

Of course. If I belonged to a group that would be a given.

@myjoe
I dont like being personal on a forum.
If it is true that ur interest is on confirming info about the JW THE BEST option is a one on one discuss.
My interest on this forum is to defend the BIBLE.
Meanwhile, while i am on that if there are related issues that interest me i may attend to them.

On this note i suggest u bring up the point u needed comment on and let me and others see what can be done to them using the bible.
Thanks and peace.

truthislight: @myjoe
I dont like being personal on a forum.

Cool. It is not good to get personal on forums.

If it is true that ur interest is on confirming info about the JW THE BEST option is a one on one discuss.

Pal, this is another Pavlovian response - everyone has heard false things about the Witnesses and is eager to clear things up and learn "the truth". When did I insinuate that I want to "confirm info about the JW"? I already told you I do your "one on one" discussions with them. Why don't you let that remain what it is while our forum dialogue remains what it is? You yourself are involved in "one on one" discussions, why has that not stopped you from coming online to "defend the Bible"? Don't you think I am entitled to similar privileges as you?

My interest on this forum is to defend the BIBLE.

Carry go. Nothing do you. But like many others on the forum, I know a bit of Bible, too. So whenever you tell any barefaced lie, I may choose to intervene if I am reading the thread - ask ijawkid.

Meanwhile, while i am on that if there are related issues that interest me i may attend to them.

Cool.

On this note i suggest u bring up the point u needed comment on and let me and others see what can be done to them using the bible.

Please read post number 72. That was where we were before you distracted us with this branch office matter. Thank you.

MyJoe:
Yes. I was clear enough all along. The Witnesses boast about this fact (as you have done here) and won't ordinarily deny it. Maybe you were just too busy clapping for thehomer who was just doing "debate" to notice the point I was trying to clarify for him and his readers. The Witnesses emphasise how united they are and in their mistaken view, unity equals uniformity of worldview - which is achieved at the expense of freedom of thought, conscience and opinion.


You put it so well. Your statement would be perfect if we substitute "personal opinion" for "human opinion". Witnessing is a product of human opinions.


Wrong. If you were right, why are matters on which the Bible is not clear, such as (1) blood transfusion, management and related matters, and (2) the return of Jesus, not left to individual consciences or understanding? Why is participation in politics through voting or other means not left to individual consciences?


You cannot say no individual is a mouth piece since God does not speak to you. People do. Or the literature you read, are they printed from heaven? Remember that according to the Watchtower magazine, your FDS is represented by the GB, which is made up of about 12 people - all male, all elderly, nearly all white. These twelve or so people are your mouthpiece. What they say is all that matters to you. Nothing else does. Voicing out a dissent (not an enquiry) to anyone can lead to consequences.


There are many issues the Bible is not clear on and there are many others it is not very clear on. What people do is to use their own opinions to interprete it and then attribute that to the Holy Spirit. Deal with it.

Note: Your answers to my questions so far show clearly that you labelled me wrongly when you called me "dishonest". And I am certainly no "religiouse people (pentecostal/catholic)"

^^^i assume this are the issues u had raise earlier?

I will soon respond to them, though on the condition that we limit our discussion to the bible.
I hope this is well with you.
I hope to be back Soon.

@myjoe
Am actully taken aback by ur rationality.
U said that unity is equal uniformity of world view?
Are u saying the JW all beheave and think the same way all over the world? No personal idiosyncrasies?
Hmmmm. U mean that with following the bible as God's word the whole world will be united as such? Well, u said it.

I do know that, unity to them means that they all accept what the Bible says as final, and it creates this outstanding unity in them?

1. Concerning blood. Read Acts 15;29. It says u will prosper good health to u if u abstain from blood, furnication, idolatrouse sacrifices (things), and things strangle.

2. Politics, John 17;6, Jesus said this, that " they are no part of the world just as he is no part of the world"
one can only have one vote. They have voted for God's kingdom government that they honestly preach about and pray for Matt6;9,10.
Not withstandinding, they are law abiding citicens, they pay their taxes and obay all laws of the land that does not contradict bible priciples. And they love their neighbours.
When they wanted to make Jesus king he refuse and went to the mountain.
He Jesus said that his kingdom is no part of this world. John 18;36

3. Jesus says that the time and hour no body knows.
But Jesus also said that his disciples should be on the watch so as not to be taken un aware.
There are lots of bible prophercies given to christ disciple to help them know the situation they are in the scheme of things, so that they will not be caught sleeping.

As a watchman, that will be unfortunate, and meaning that they can not be able to warn others to awake for their lifes.

They have never said they know the day.
But they cant go to sleep rather they keep on preaching to people that God's kingdom is near, explaining bible prophercies to this effect.

4. They have elders that serve as a Governing body. Read Acts 15;1 to 11.

This is the example set out in the bible.
The number is of couse not fixed.

This dont pass out their personal opinion since they all recongnise that peoples lifes are at stake.

They are all humble men that go out to preach to others from house to house.

They dont take any credit for anything since they know that if they did not follow the bible they would not have taken the preaching work to the ends of the earth.
Peace

@myjoe
Am actully taken aback by ur rationality.
U said that unity is equal uniformity of world view?
Are u saying the JW all beheave and think the same way all over the world? No personal idiosyncrasies?
Hmmmm. U mean that with following the bible as God's word the whole world will be united as such? Well, u said it.

I do know that, unity to them means that they all accept what the Bible says as final, and it creates this outstanding unity in them?

1. Concerning blood. Read Acts 15;29. It says u will prosper good health to u if u abstain from blood, furnication, idolatrouse sacrifices (things), and things strangle.

2. Politic, John 17;6, Jesus said his that " they are no part of the world just as he is no part of the world"
one can only have one vote. They have voted for God's kingdom that they honest preach about and pray for Matt6;9,10.
Not withstandinding, they are law abiding citicens, they pay their taxes and obay all laws of the land that does not contradict bible priciples. And they love their neighbours.
When they wanted to make him king he refuse and went to the mountain.
He Jesus said that his kingdom is no part of this world. John 18;36

3. Jesus says that the time and hour no body know.
But Jesus also said that his disciples should be on the watch so as not to be taken un aware.
There are lots of bible prophercies given to christ disciple to help them know the situation they are in the schem of things, so that they will not be caught sleeping.

As a watchman, that will be unfortunate, and meaning that they can not be able to warn others to awake for their lifes.
They have never said they know the day.
But they cant go to sleep rather they keep on preaching to people that God's kingdom is near, explaining bible prophercies to this effect.

4. They have elders that serve as a Governing body. Read Acts 15;1 to 11.

This is the example set out in the bible.
The number is of couse not fixed.

They dont pass out their personal opinion since they all recongnise that peoples lifes are at stake.

They are all humble men that go out to preach to others from house to house.

They dont take any credit for anything since they know that if they did not follow the bible they would not have taken the preaching work to the ends of the earth.
Peace

@myjoe
Am actully taken aback by ur rationality.
U said that unity is equal uniformity of world view?
Are u saying the JW all beheave and think the same way all over the world? No personal idiosyncrasies?
Hmmmm. U mean that with following the bible as God's word the whole world will be united as such? Well, u said it.

I do know that, unity to them means that they all accept what the Bible says as final, and it creates this outstanding unity in them?

1. Concerning blood. Read Acts 15;29. It says u will prosper good health to u if u abstain from blood, furnication, idolatrouse sacrifices (things), and things strangle.

2. Politic, John 17;6, Jesus said his that " they are no part of the world just as he is no part of the world"
one can only have one vote. They have voted for God's kingdom that they honest preach about and pray for Matt6;9,10.
Not withstandinding, they are law abiding citicens, they pay their taxes and obay all laws of the land that does not contradict bible priciples. And they love their neighbours.
When they wanted to make him king he refuse and went to the mountain.
He Jesus said that his kingdom is no part of this world. John 18;36

3. Jesus says that the time and hour no body know.
But Jesus also said that his disciples should be on the watch so as not to be taken un aware.
There are lots of bible prophercies given to christ disciple to help them know the situation they are in the schem of things, so that they will not be caught sleeping.

As a watchman, that will be unfortunate, and meaning that they can not be able to warn others to awake for their lifes.
They have never said they know the day.
But they cant go to sleep rather they keep on preaching to people that God's kingdom is near, explaining bible prophercies to this effect.

4. They have elders that serve as a Governing body. Read Acts 15;1 to 11.

This is the example set out in the bible.
The number is of couse not fixed.

They dont pass out their personal opinion since they all recongnise that peoples lifes are at stake.

They are all humble men that go out to preach to others from house to house.

They dont take any credit for anything since they know that if they did not follow the bible they would not have taken the preaching work to the ends of the earth.
Peace

@myjoe
Am actully taken aback by ur rationality.
U said that unity is equal uniformity of world view?
Are u saying the JW all beheave and think the same way all over the world? No personal idiosyncrasies?
Hmmmm. U mean that with following the bible as God's word the whole world will be united as such? Well, u said it.

I do know that, unity to them means that they all accept what the Bible says as final, and it creates this outstanding unity in them?

1. Concerning blood. Read Acts 15;29. It says u will prosper good health to u if u abstain from blood, furnication, idolatrouse sacrifices (things), and things strangle.

2. Politic, John 17;6, Jesus said his that " they are no part of the world just as he is no part of the world"
one can only have one vote. They have voted for God's kingdom that they honest preach about and pray for Matt6;9,10.
Not withstandinding, they are law abiding citicens, they pay their taxes and obay all laws of the land that does not contradict bible priciples. And they love their neighbours.
When they wanted to make him king he refuse and went to the mountain.
He Jesus said that his kingdom is no part of this world. John 18;36

3. Jesus says that the time and hour no body know.
But Jesus also said that his disciples should be on the watch so as not to be taken un aware.
There are lots of bible prophercies given to christ disciple to help them know the situation they are in the schem of things, so that they will not be caught sleeping.

As a watchman, that will be unfortunate, and meaning that they can not be able to warn others to awake for their lifes.
They have never said they know the day.
But they cant go to sleep rather they keep on preaching to people that God's kingdom is near, explaining bible prophercies to this effect.

4. They have elders that serve as a Governing body. Read Acts 15;1 to 11.

This is the example set out in the bible.
The number is of couse not fixed.

They dont pass out their personal opinion since they all recongnise that peoples lifes are at stake.

They are all humble men that go out to preach to others from house to house.

They dont take any credit for anything since they know that if they did not follow the bible they would not have taken the preaching work to the ends of the earth.
Peace

@Fresky and Truthislight. I have not had time to read all your posts. Once I have the time I will come back to you. Do not think for once i accept your explanations or somersaultings.

^^^^ Its a free world.

truthislight: @myjoe
Am actully taken aback by ur rationality.

I’m sure you mean my thinking or reasoning. Let’s see what’s taking you aback.

U said that unity is equal uniformity of world view?
Are u saying the JW all beheave and think the same way all over the world? No personal idiosyncrasies?

Well, it’s not likely I would say that, is it? I mean, it will be quite devious on your part to take what I said to mean that there are no Witnesses who like to hammer beans and bread in the afternoon while others prefer hot Molete (Ibadan) amala with ewedu and gbegiri while for yet others it's chicken nuggets with fries and Syrian salad all washed down with soda or coke.

Hmmmm. U mean that with following the bible as God's word the whole world will be united as such? Well, u said it.

No. I neither said nor meant any such thing. I mean that due to the psychological methods used and the fact individuals and not permitted to think for themselves or disagree on anything, certain problems are created.

I do know that, unity to them means that they all accept what the Bible says as final, and it creates this outstanding unity in them?

Unity is good. But uniformity is not necessarily good or desirable. Groups function well when they are guided by principles which members do well to adhere to. Not when you create an artificially purified community where it is mandated that everyone thinks and sees things the same way and this is ruthlessly enforced. Such a group is sterile, not alive.

1. Concerning blood.

Yes, concerning blood.

Read Acts 15;29. It says u will prosper good health to u if u abstain from blood, furnication, idolatrouse sacrifices (things), and things strangle.

Ok. Let’s say that verse is clear on blood transfusion. (whether it is is a matter for another day.) How about the issue of blood fractions? You will agree with me it is not clear on that. Here is what I am getting at:
On Monday, the church says: blood fractions are okay.
On Tuesday: the Bible says they are wrong.
On Wednesday: they are okay.
On Thursday: the Bible says they are wrong.
On Friday: they are okay.
If the Bible were clear on the matter (blood fractions), there would be no changes and confusion. Since the Bible is not clear on the matter, yet your church insists on deciding for its members, on what basis do you claim that members are allowed to use their conscience or understanding? Why didn’t your church simply say: “the Bible says don’t take blood transfusion(!). But as for the smaller fractions, it’s not clear. Let your conscience guide you”?

2. Politic, John 17;6, Jesus said his that " they are no part of the world just as he is no part of the world"
one can only have one vote. They have voted for God's kingdom that they honest preach about and pray for Matt6;9,10.

Would you say that “no part of the world” is a CLEAR statement against all political participation? In all honestly, would you not admit that it takes quite some interpretation to move from "no part of the world" to "don't vote"? It does. Alternative interpretations are possible. Here is mine, and I think it's more probable:

Jesus wanted his followers to stay away from the sins of the world. That’s what he meant. On politics, of course, he and his desciples did not participate in it because they were called to missionary service and would have been distracted by politics. You see, it is impossible to stay completely out of politics. If you discuss politics with your workmates and influence their decisions, would you not call that participation. There are many rural parts of Nigeria where they still practice village democracies. I spent my preteen years in one of such villages - monarchy-gerontocracy-democracy. There was a king but he was far away and hardly relevant to us. There were titled elders whom matters were taken to for settlement but everyone was at liberty to participate at proceedings. When there was a dispute, everyone would gather at the house of the oldest titled man in the village and make their contributions. A concensus is somehow reached. Everyone participated, including those I knew to be Witnesses. Now, that is political participation at its best, yet it would be quite foolish for anyone to find problems with it.

Coming to the city and formal politics, the classical Witness approach to life - a childlike refusal to deal appropriately with the complexities of the world around him. Pain, disease and misgovernance being of Satan’s world, so no need to do anything since Armageddon, which is around the corner, will end it all. So everybody, forward march to God's Kingdom! – is neither sensible nor practical. Individual Christians should be allowed to decide if they want to vote and participate in politics or not. It is eggregiously wrong for this to be legislated on by a church.

You have read my own interpretation of "no part of the world". The question I am asking is: why do the the bosses of your church impose their own interpretation on everyone? Since the Bible is clearly not clear on the matter, if I decide to be become a Witness, why not allow me to pray and be led to my own interpretation or away from it? Why does your church insist that God does not illuminate individuals contrary to what the Bible says? Why are Witnesses encouraged to pray daily yet they are told God cannot illuminate them individually? What exactly do you pray for when you close your eyes? I know - that God should help you see it the way Watchtower sees it! Don't you find any problem with this kind of life?

Not withstandinding, they are law abiding citicens, they pay their taxes and obay all laws of the land that does not contradict bible priciples. And they love their neighbours.

Yes, they preach to their members to pay their taxes. As for loving their neighbour, I will pass that one for now.

When they wanted to make him king he refuse and went to the mountain.
He Jesus said that his kingdom is no part of this world. John 18;36

Yes. He couldn't have had time for that. He was a very busy man, that Jesus of Nazareth. That in no way precludes Christians from choosing to participate in politics. It's like marriage. The Bible says it's better if you stay single so as to have more time for the work of God, but marriage is fine.

3. Jesus says that the time and hour no body know.

Then why has your church, throughout its history, behaved as if it knew, even asking people to ignore Jesus' message that nobody knows the day? Why has it been setting dates for the world to end - 187-something, 1914, 1975?

But Jesus also said that his disciples should be on the watch so as not to be taken un aware.
There are lots of bible prophercies given to christ disciple to help them know the situation they are in the schem of things, so that they will not be caught sleeping.

[quote]
As a watchman, that will be unfortunate, and meaning that they can not be able to warn others to awake for their lifes.

The watchdogs of your church have certainly been on the watch. Jesus can't charge them for not being on the watch. But there's something I once read in an Awake or Watchtower article, "working hard is not always a virtue", or something like that. Keeping on the watch is not always a virtue.

They have never said they know the day.

They have. Repeatedly, too. Want references?

But they cant go to sleep rather they keep on preaching to people that God's kingdom is near, explaining bible prophercies to this effect.

They have certainly been doing a lot of explaining. But that's when they've created the most confusion - while explaining. Why can't people be allowed to read the Bible and take it for what it says? What is wrong with admitting that the Bible is not clear when it isn't instead of creating confusion and causing problems for individuals, families and communities?

4. They have elders that serve as a Governing body. Read Acts 15;1 to 11.

This is the example set out in the bible.
The number is of couse not fixed.

They’re currently seven – all male, all elderly, nearly all white. Slight contradiction - the Bible number is fixed at 12 and that is the example they follow at the Latter Day Saints church. No big deal, I would think, but you're the one emphasising how it's the “example set the in the Bible”.

They dont pass out their personal opinion since they all recongnise that peoples lifes are at stake.

I do not agree with this line at all. Tell you why. Much of your doctrine is about the personal opinion of the leaders of the church. Once the Bible is not clear on a matter and you stretch it, twisting and turning in doing so, that is your personal opinion. Once you make policies that lead to deaths such as banning vacinations or blood transfusion, including fractions, you are not recognising that lives are at stake, materially speaking. And when inconsistency is your style and you are never sure of what you are preaching yet you go on dishing it out, at a time you claim is crucial in the scheme of things, you are not recognising that lives are at stake, spiritually speaking.

Peace to you, too.

frosbel:

Did I call you a JW or JW Brothers ?

But you have answered my question with 2 more questions

My brother, you guys should read the bible again or use a bible search tool on-line , then come back with the answers and we will continue.

Don't ask me questions when you cannot provide feedback to 2 simple questions.

forsbel you shouldnt argue these issues with them because i just found out that you believe almost dsame thing d Jw believe.

Well, it is either following the bible has help them as a group or it has not.
Are u saying that this unity is as a result of human philosophy? Well, that will be a great monumental achievement for humans...

And, by the way, that seems to be ur personal opinion, that they dont follow the bible.

However. Lying is bad.
1. U said that the witnesses dont accept vaccinations.
Yes, they do, but blood? No they dont.

Hmmm!
Ur desperation to paint them bad is so high.

U did say that Jesus and his followers could not be involve in politics cus they were missionaries.
Well, on that same ground, what do u think?
the witness are all missionaries too, too busy to be involve in politics.
They are too busy preaching from house to house to have time for politics.

About the 1975 issue.
The magazine said that after the sixth(6) day of creation God rested.
It then said that 1975 will mark the sixth thousand years of human history, then it asked.
What next?
The magazine never said that the world will end that year.
People understanding defer,
So, if u had understood that to mean that the world is coming to an end, that was ur personal ideas.

The unity that exist amongst them is a very big testament to what christianity would have been if all others that claim christianity had followed the bible and not human philosophy like urs.

Just see the mess religion in politics has created.
Case study, Nigeria.

Christians and muslims.
Fortunately, the witness stay clear from politics and war.

Did u ever imagine when two nation goes to war who kills the other at both ends.
Eg.
Catholics in Nigeria kills catholics in Cameroon during war and catholics in cameroon kills catholics in Nigeria in same war. Where then is the love?
This is impossible among the witnesses since they are always neutral, and would not support war. = Love among themselves.

Peace.

truthislight: Well, it is either following the bible has help them as a group or it has not.
Are u saying that this unity is as a result of human philosophy? Well, that will be a great monumental achievement for humans...

Have you seen any of the movies made on Jim Jones and the Guyana business? If you see “Eaten Alive” (don’t go near it if you don’t fancy cannibal movies) you will note the level of discipline and organisation at the camp. It does not take any serious thinking to know that a group will be highly organized when either physical violence or coercive persuasion techniques are used to enforce discipline. At Jones’ camp it was a combination of both. At your church and some other new age movements, it is only the latter. There is more discipline and law and order in North Korea than the United States, but which would you rather live in? I’m not saying that God is not in your church or that he is. I am saying that the fact that you are organized does not on its own prove that he is. Humans can do that on their own.

The JW humans achieved their high level or organisation and “unity” by easily identifiable methods. You tow the line or you are kicked out. You serve or you die. Everything is black and white, no gray areas. Once you show signs of weakness you are deemed “spiritually weak”, and the judging takes place faster than you can say “weak”. No mercy. No genuine love. It’s the organisation (which is mistaken for God) first, and anything else hardly matters. Yes, I'm speaking in parables.

Groups like the JW that define themselves by their separateness tend to be ordered and highly organised. That is to be expected. Once you become a Witness, a feeling of being in a specially chosen group is created in your mind. You don’t want to leave the group and go “out there”. Hot button phrases like “God’s people”, “the truth”, “Jehovah’s organisation”, “Babylon the Great”, “Satan’s world”, etc, have been deployed with remarkable success over years to put brains on a short circuit and reinforce the feeling of us (the chosen) versus them (the rest).

And, by the way, that seems to be ur personal opinion, that they dont follow the bible.

Please show me where I have made this specific claim. It may be that I have forgotten.

However. Lying is bad.
1. U said that the witnesses dont accept vaccinations.

You are calling me a liar for saying what I did about the Witnesses and vaccination? Well, you can be pardoned. I am aware that 99.something % of Witnesses don’t know their church’s history. Please read what I wrote again. I did not say “the Witnesses don’t accept vaccinations”. I know what I was talking about so I could not have written that. Yes, Witnesses accept vaccination today. But there was a time they did not. To show you I am not a liar, I will give you references to show you that the Witnesses once made a policy of banning vaccinations, probably leading to countless deaths.

This is from the Awake of 1929, pages 106-7: "Avoid serum inoculations and vaccinations as they pollute the blood stream with their filthy pus."
This was the official position of your church until the 50’s when it was revoked; that is, when Watchtower said the Bible said vaccines were okay. Or when Watchtower said the Bible does not say the vaccines are bad. You can confirm this from a Witness who was alive in 1950 if you know of any.

Back then there were countries where your child could not go to school without having been vaccinated. A European woman recounted how she bribed a doctor to produce a scar on her child’s arm that resembled the scar left by smallpox vaccination and then signed a certificate of vaccination. According to her, it was a common practice among the Witnesses in those days to enable their children register in school. How many Witness kids suffered from smallpox until the time this policy was revoked and vaccines pronounced okay?

So, to remind you, why rush to issue a ban in such a serious matter since the biblical direction was not clear on it? Do policies on blood, vaccinations and organ transplants not show that the Witnesses are not allowed to go by the dictates of their own conscience and understanding of the Bible even in private matters that the Bible is either silent on or not clear about? Are the leaders of your church not bloodguilty in having rushed ahead of the Bible to ban blood transfusion, vaccinations and organ transplants?

You did not comment on what I wrote about blood fractions. I take it then that you admit that the GB, the ruling council of your church, overreached itself on this matter by condemning what the Bible has not. This is poignant when one considers how they have swung back and forth like a pendulum on the matter – go right, go left, go right, go left… I was hoping you would get the point when I made use of examples of things you have changed doctrine back and forth on to show you the Bible is indeed not clear on many issues yet your church would not let individuals make their own decisions.

Yes, they do, but blood? No they dont.

Actually, they do. Sausage is pork. Smokeless cigarette is cigarette. Skimmed milk is milk. Decafenated tea is tea. And blood fraction is blood. I understand the differences, of course. Personally, I don’t consume whole milk, but I take skimmed milk. Because they are different. However, I will not tell someone that I don’t take milk the way you said “they don’t” take blood. I will say “I don’t take whole milk.” Or “I take skimmed milk.” If I wanted to abstain from milk altogether I would not take skimmed milk. Just as you Witnesses are fond of saying, abstaining from alcohol means not drinking it or taking it through your veins. But it also means not taking it in diluted form. For example, Image123 abstains from alcohol and will not be caught dead drinking beer which contains about 5% alcohol or even O’Douls which contains about 0.4% alcohol. According to The Watchtower of June 1, 1961, “abstaining from blood means not taking it into our bodies at all.”

And remember that your church bans blood donations while permitting blood fractions and some other medical preparations which come from donated blood. Besides, if blood fractions were bad yesterday but are good today, who’s to say whole blood won’t be okay tomorrow? And when that change is made (I look forward to it for the sake of those who die needlessly) you will come here and defend the new policy. In fact, you kid will come here and tell Nairalanders that the Witnesses have never forbidden blood, as the Witnesses appear to be very clever at hiding their history.

You see, whichever way one looks at your policy on blood, the inescapable conclusion is that it does not even begin to make biblical, scientific, or common sense. Whether it’s the banning of all transfusions or the acceptance of parts. A kid of six can see this.

Hmmm!
Ur desperation to paint them bad is so high.

No. I am not desperate to paint them bad. I am merely responding to you, as I have to prove that I am not dishonest and certainly not a liar. I have merely touched on most of the issues here and gone into little details about few, with everything coming off the top of my head. I could bombard you with truckloads of materials to shut you up for good and that would still not be desperation. Desperation would be if I start gathering anti-Witness material and then add my own embellishments. I can assure you I would never do that. Not that there would be need for it.

Besides, I don’t think the Witnesses are bad. Sometimes obnoxious, particularly with the blood stance, but still generally not bad people. I think they are just like other religions – a group of people, many of them sincere, looking for the truth and believing they have it. The aggressive efforts to recruit me and my family and the constant emphasis on the differences between them and other groups, in a bid to accentuate their imaginary superiority, can cause irritation. But these are just slight irritants. I think you Witnesses are cool on the whole.

U did say that Jesus and his followers could not be involve in politics cus they were missionaries.
Well, on that same ground, what do u think?
the witness are all missionaries too, too busy to be involve in politics.
They are too busy preaching from house to house to have time for politics.

Obviously, you didn’t get it, so I will try again. Jesus and his apostles were in missionary service and so they could not have found time for such mundane things as politics. That was for the same reasons that they could not engage in secular work. According to the story, Jesus gave up his carpentry profession. John and James gave up fishing and Matthew gave up tax collecting. However, there were lay disciples who continued with their secular normal lives – such as Lazarus and his sisters, and the chap who came to take Jesus’ body for burial and many others. There is no reason to believe that these lay followers who were not in full time service refused to make input into how they were governed or repudiated opportunities to serve in government. Not reason whatsoever. If you have any scripture citations to show that first century Christians who were not holding leadership positions in the church turned their backs on politics, please share them with me.

Coming to our day, there are people in your church who, like Jesus and his apostles, are in leading positions and missionary service and can clearly not find time for such mundane things as politics. That is for the same reasons they do not engage in secular work. This would apply to the governing elders of your printing corporation and those in missionary service. But what about other Witnesses? Do they stay away from secular work like Jesus and the apostles did? No, since there is no need for them to, as they have not been called out like the governing elders and missionaries have been. On your assertion that the Witnesses are missionaries, remember you said lying is bad. I am aware that every Witness is deemed a minister. This does not apply to “missionary”. You have a missionary class, people who are specially trained and then sent to other countries and, like Jesus and the apostles, will clearly not be able to hold government positions. This does not apply to every Witness. Anyone who intends to vote will surely have time to vote and the vast majority of Witnesses can hold public office if they intend to. Remember "lying is bad".

About the 1975 issue.
The magazine said that after the sixth(6) day of creation God rested.
It then said that 1975 will mark the sixth thousand years of human history, then it asked.
What next?
The magazine never said that the world will end that year.
People understanding defer,
So, if u had understood that to mean that the world is coming to an end, that was ur personal ideas.

Someone has not been honest with you. Let me assure you I have a far better understanding of that matter and its tangents than you do. Why don’t you read up on the issue to find out all that was actually said? If after reading up on the subject you still think your church said something about 1975 being the 6,000th year and it ended there, come back and say so and I will give you references.

The unity that exist amongst them is a very big testament to what christianity would have been if all others that claim christianity had followed the bible and not human philosophy like urs.

Another hot button phrase. What is my “human philosophy”, please? That water is good for fish, but not boiling water? That “gather together” is different from “pack together”? That groups normally aim for unity not uniformity? Anyway, like I have explained above, the fact you are “united” doesn’t prove anything.

And what is godly philosophy or wisdom in your book? All that we have talked about here?

Just see the mess religion in politics has created.
Case study, Nigeria.

Christians and muslims.
Fortunately, the witness stay clear from politics and war.

Did u ever imagine when two nation goes to war who kills the other at both ends.
Eg.
Catholics in Nigeria kills catholics in Cameroon during war and catholics in cameroon kills catholics in Nigeria in same war. Where then is the love?
This is impossible among the witnesses since they are always neutral, and would not support war. = Love among themselves.

Peace.

Yes, it’s bad for Catholics to kill to Catholics. And wars are bad. In fact, it is hard to think of anything that is worse than war. But it is very typical of the Governing Body of your church, and beyond shallow of anyone, to reduce war to “Catholics killing Catholics”. “Catholics kill Catholics in war, therefore, there is no love in the Catholic Church.” “Witnesses don’t go to war because they practice love.”

Don’t you think what you have written above is oversimplifying war, a very complex issue? Don’t you think that your church’s teaching on love vis-à-vis war is another childlike response to a situation that has no easy answers and demands critical thought? I mean, have you ever tried to drop your Watchtower goggles and think critically about what it means to abstain from war? If you wake up around midnight, open your eyes and see someone with a Dracula dagger trying to sneak into your kids’ bedroom, would you abstain from fighting and call it love? Has it ever occurred to you that that is what war often comes down to – people trying to invade your community and kill, plunder and enslave people and you defending your life, freedom and dignity and those of your family against them? In the light of the above, is it not more sensible and practical for the leadership of your church to let rank and file JW Christians decide individually which war it is okay to fight in and which not to, while applying the biblical injunctions on love?

And I wasn't saying you should bring religion into politics. You people are fund of lumping things together to obfuscate issues. How does a lay Christian voting or holding public office amount to bringing religion into politics? I am only asking why individual Witnesses are not allowed to decide for themselves whether to vote and hold public office or not since the Bible does not clearly forbid it and since you claim the Witnesses are allowed to use their conscience.

@myjoe
hmmm!
Men, it is very interesting, i mean the passion in you to show that "the governing elders" of theJW are not following the scriptures when you youself did not not quote any scriptures to show ur facts
. Because i notice that u deliberately seperated them from the other witnesses.

One thing that struct me though is this, its like u may have been one of them that was kicked out and you took offence or something of that sort.
Or, are you saying that all your info about them however it is, is as a result of your being a passive observer?

Am aware that war report are best told by former soldiers.

If that is the case i may have reasons to understand why u are going round on all info that you have and twisting things.

Meanwhile, am wandering what the spiritual benefit of my discussion with you will be?
U hadly quote any scriptures to prove ur point as we had agreed that we will(basing all our discuss on the bible)
is it that u dont like, trust/read the bible anymore, or u want me to tag with u on words without using the bible?

How spiritual will this our friendship becomes, (note bad friends spoils useful harbits)

note; the litle bible i know now is as a result of there "bad" effort (the witness) according to you

i agree with u that religion in politics will make the world a better place as we can see in Nigeria, or is it the involvement of the JW that will fixe the world? Irrespective of the effort of all the well meaning people?

It is possible that all witnesses all over the world are suffering from brain drain or brain wash according to u, and none of them can see what u are saying, is it that u could not see what they are seeing?

Whatever the case, ur effort since the 1950's in politics (after leaving or refusing to join them) have fixed the world of its problems, is it that u need only the remaining witnesses to join you in politics to succeed?

Is it a grudge for their governing elders that are not interested in the good life that politics offer that you hate?
So u want them to mix religion and politics?

I know that all the war that have been fouth in the 20century is all about someone entering someone childrens room with a dagger, but if it is not, may this show to what level and capacity you have in bending and twisting issues, and expecially in showing the real person you are.

Thank you for justifying all the religious wars.
Thanks for justifying the dead of all innocent people as a result of religious conflicts.

To you it is the group that has always remain neutral that is the problem here.

To u there none involvement in war is bad for not killing innocent people that die as a result of war.

There obedience to the bible injunction "that they will not learn war anymore" is the instruction from there governing elders that is not base on the scriptures.

Why wont you say such? Afterall you dont read the bible it seems, so, how would you know?
that explain the reason for ur unjustified accusations here.
If you do read and cant quote the bible on a religious thread where then will you do it? That is if you are religious.

May be, ur thrust is not the bible, if so, why do you think u stand a chance of knowing the sense of an issue in the bible Genesis to Revelation to make an inform decission?

The stand of JW is the bible, so, if u wish to fouther this issue, come forward with the scriptures u think they are defaulting, then you will get a reply.

Meanwhile, i have a coppy of the 1975 issue of the magazine in question and i did not get the sense u got.

People like you made me to look for it.
Peace