What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE - Religion (6) - Nairaland
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| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 1:05pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
I was busy and away from here. But I did try to respond to all your posts on Wednesday and the robot wouldn't let me. I have written out all my posts and will now try to break them into small bits so the robot might let them through. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 1:07pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
BARRISTERS: @Myjoe You did not previously address it, since I was not disputing the fact that people joined freely and willingly. Your baptismal point addresses a different issue, one that did not even arise. And I did not suggest that people should raise their “new opinions” and try to force them on the church or rebel in the manner of Korah. I will get to that presently. But you have addressed the point in this post by citing what can appear to be Bible parallels. Thank you for addressing the issue frontally. However, relying on the Old Testament, particularly the Moses case, in this matter, is thoroughly misguided. I will develop that point presently, but first let me digress to make an observation that a lot in religion is based on assumptions. People assume to know what God wants. A Christian typically believes that what God wants can be ascertained from the Bible, but then he still makes assumptions that are not contained in the Bible. For example, it is said that polygamy should not be practiced. There is no single place polygamy is condemned in the Bible. Monogamy is clearly encouraged and given preference in the New Testament, but that is how far it went. Another case is “fornication” which is commonly used interchangeably with “premarital sex” or “sex outside marriage”. Nowhere in the Bible is fornication (porneia: sexual immorality or sex sin or illicit sex or prostitution) defined as “premarital sex”, but this assumption has completely gained ground. (I am not saying that churches should not preach against premarital sex, or offer their own subjective definition of “fornication”. I am just making an observation about misplaced assumptions, in this case, a definitional assumption.) Back to the subject. We cannot simply assume that just because Moses lead a religious group, and the leadership of your church leads a religious group, therefore there is a parallel. Otherwise, we would be according godly authority to knaves who do bad things in the name of religion, such as those who lead their followers to mass murder, suicide or extortion. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 1:07pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
There are two reasons we cannot compare Watchtower’s leadership with that of Moses. (1) Moses was anointed to lead the Israelites, Watchtower is not anointed to lead anyone. (2) Moses was consistent; that is, he was not in the habit of giving conflicting instructions – the same cannot be said of the Watchtower. But number two follows from number one. Moses heard from God directly and God specifically, you can say personally, anointed him for the task of leading the nation of Israel. Korah, Datam, Abiram, the 250, and Mariam knew this. They were there when fire came down from heaven and the gathering asked to be excused. The wilderness murmurers saw the miracles in Egypt and the consequences that came to pass when golden calves were made. Therefore you can say (1) God personally told Moses he had appointed him leader, (2) God also told the Israelites he had appointed Moses their leader. Any member of that lot who rebelled was, therefore, challenging God. But let’s look at Watchtower. I am aware the elders talked about earlier are referred to as “anointed”. While some very fundamental issues can be raised about that, this is not the time for that. I just want you to know that when I say Watchtower is not anointed like Moses, I simply mean it in the sense that they are “not inspired” – that is how they put it. Yes, they themselves have stated this in fairly clear terms, so I am not making assumptions here. So we all know God has never personally told the JW leadership that he has picked them as his channel of truth. And he has not told me, either. I am trying to maintain an even tone, so I will refrain from mentioning names that can cause distractions. But at the starting of the church in the 1870’s, no such claim was made. The present Body which leads the church by the authority it inherited from the 1870’s pastor has also never made any claims to inspiration. The claim, conclusion, or assumption that the JW is the true church is made solely on the basis that they study the Bible a lot and in their own opinion they follow it more than anyone else. That is, the claim, conclusion or assumption is not based on revelation. It does not sound logical or right for the leadership of your church to inform us they are not inspired when they err and then seek to claim protection from scrutiny under the anointing of Moses. There is a tired line about eating cakes and having them. Are they inspired so we may hold them up to the standard of Moses and Isaiah, or not inspired so we may have realistic expectations and let our own enlightenment and understanding of God’s word guide us, while assisting, supporting and respecting them as leaders? |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 2:12pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
This robot s[i]ha[/i]. Continuing now... |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 2:12pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
There are two reasons we cannot compare Watchtower’s leadership with that of Moses. (1) Moses was anointed to lead the Israelites, Watchtower is not anointed to lead anyone. (2) Moses was consistent; that is, he was not in the habit of giving conflicting instructions – the same cannot be said of the Watchtower. But number two follows from number one. Moses heard from God directly and God specifically, you can say personally, anointed him for the task of leading the nation of Israel. Korah, Datam, Abiram, the 250, and Mariam knew this. They were there when fire came down from heaven and the gathering asked to be excused. The wilderness murmurers saw the miracles in Egypt and the consequences that came to pass when golden calves were made. Therefore you can say (1) God personally told Moses he had appointed him leader, (2) God also told the Israelites he had appointed Moses their leader. Any member of that lot who rebelled was, therefore, challenging God. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 3:14pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
There are two reasons we cannot compare Watchtower’s leadership with that of Moses. (1) Moses was anointed to lead the Israelites, Watchtower is not anointed to lead anyone. (2) Moses was consistent; that is, he was not in the habit of giving conflicting instructions – the same cannot be said of the Watchtower. But number two follows from number one. Moses heard from God directly and God specifically, you can say personally, anointed him for the task of leading the nation of Israel. Korah, Datam, Abiram, the 250, and Mariam knew this. They were there when fire came down from heaven and the gathering asked to be excused. The wilderness murmurers saw the miracles in Egypt and the consequences that came to pass when golden calves were made. Therefore you can say (1) God personally told Moses he had appointed him leader, (2) God also told the Israelites he had appointed Moses their leader. Any member of that lot who rebelled was, therefore, challenging God. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:17pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Anyone knows how to handle pyguru when he or she's on your case and won't let you post? |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:29pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
[size=4pt]Lost post. Darn the robot![/size] There are two reasons we cannot compare Watchtower’s leadership with that of Moses. (1) Moses was anointed to lead the Israelites, Watchtower is not anointed to lead anyone. (2) Moses was consistent; that is, he was not in the habit of giving conflicting instructions – the same cannot be said of the Watchtower. But number two follows from number one. Moses heard from God directly and God specifically, you can say personally, anointed him for the task of leading the nation of Israel. Korah, Datam, Abiram, the 250, and Mariam knew this. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:30pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Repeated |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:31pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Repeated |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:35pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
According to the Bible, God led people directly in the past through prophets, kings, priests and judges who personally heard from him. Today, we are not under that dispensation – that is what Watchtower teaches and they are probably right since I have never heard God speaking to anyone the way people heard him speak to Moses in the Bible. In the Old Testament, it was Moses alone at first. In the New Testament, we saw a whole 120 people picked at once. Subsequently, the Bible tells us that the spirit of God is for everyone who believes and so desires. This is in Romans 5:5  NKJV)5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Romans 7:6 (NWT) But now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code. 1 Corinthians 2:11-13(NKJV) 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[a] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Is this spirit given to a select group of Christians or all believe? 1 Corinthians 12:3 (NKJV) 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. More: John the Beloved agrees in the book attributed to him: 1 John 3:24(NKJV) 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. You no longer have to look up to a Moses, except Jesus Christ, “the greater Moses” -Watchtower.Christians are to be taught and guided by the holy spirit. Paul knew this and made maximum use of it, as he was not in the habit of making constant reference to the elders in Jerusalem. 1 Like |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:37pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
BARRISTERS: This is what you seem not to have understood in thinking that I want people to raise their “new opinions”, after having joined freely and willingly, and foist them on the church. I am simply reiterating the biblical position which is that God enlightens individual Christians. That is, Barristers does not have to wait for anyone to know what to do. His own maturity, understanding and God’s spirit, are to guide him on areas he has doubts, that is, matters on which the Bible is not clear to him. This is not the same thing as suggesting that Barristers should foist his views on MyJoe or that Ijawkid should challenge some elders. Christians are to support each other in these matters but they are not to dictate to each other. As I showed you in my other post, Paul made this point strongly, using the examples of eating and drinking. Anyone Christian who fails to ask questions, take herself through the rigours of finding out what the Bible actually says, and be guided them that and by reason, rather than men opens herself up to being duped by pastors who levy tithes and first fruit offerings, prophets who take away life savings, and elders who impose whimsical restrictions on medical treatment. (“Whimsical” because they themselves are not sure of the policies and make changes to them every other day). People have become Witnesses because they questioned their previous beliefs or certain things done by their leaders. People have renounced membership of the JW because they questioned certain beliefs or actions taken by the leadership. Nothing I have said above should not be construed to mean that I support coup making or rebellion, the manner adopted by Korah and co, against the Watchtower or any similar leadership. What Korahand co did was wrong and motivated purely by selfishness, as everyone cannot lead at the same time. I will explain. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:39pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
jhju |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:41pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
You get me wrong. I am not clamouring that everyone gets involved in decision making, as that is not feasible. Nowhere have I said so during this discussion. Some people are bound to lead and others have a duty to follow. My point, which is simple, really, is that the leadership does not have to micro-legislate on small matters, such as those bordering on health decisions, especially where the Bible is not clear on the matter. That is different from saying that everyone should be involved in decision making or that those who have been selected to lead should not be respected. On the first point you raised, let me quickly say that discussion did not build up to the matter of blood fractions. I raised it as an example of something the Bible is not clear on which the JW church has gone ahead to legislate on even without being sure about the rightness of their own position. Your statement that my “assumption on the JW leadership can only be reduced to mere thinking” does not disclose anything, much less encapsulate my position. My point is that… well, you know it. Thinking is fundamental to making decisions for yourself. If you are not allowed to decide for yourself in matters you ought to be allowed, it follows that you are not allowed to think for yourself. I am not mindlessly or willy-nilly reducing anyone to thinking. And I am not making any assumptions, as you yourself have not denied that the JW leadership does what I have said they do in the matter of legislating. You are merely seeking to justify it. That is not the same thing as demonstrating that I have made an assumption. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:45pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
BERNIMOORE: @MyjoeThis got me to laugh. While I’d be loth to use the term “failed prophecy”, the prophecy in that verse did not come to pass.I have not said Jesus made a prophecy that did not come to pass or a failed prophecy, whichever we want to put it. Well, there are several possibilities here. (1) Jesus did not say that but someone put it in the Bible. (2) Jesus did say something but someone heard him wrongly. (3) Jesus did say something and someone did hear him right but transmitted it wrongly. (4) It was actually written right but some copyist got things mixed up – you will recall Xerox hadn’t started out in business in those days. Whatever it is, we are not sure. What we are sure of is that according to that verse, Jesus said the generation alive then would not all die before events finished unfolding. This did not happen because that generation has died and events have not all unfolded. That is a prophecy that apparently did not come to pass. Our best possible recourse is to admit that we do not understand the verse and focus on other things – like the love of God. The way many Christians simply leave the book of Revelation and portions of Daniel alone and focus what they consider more important to their Christian lives. Nothing I have written above should be construed to mean that I am not open to an explanation of the verse. I was above talking in apparent terms only. If some enlightened person shows up tomorrow and offers an explanation of the verse I will listen to him dispassionately. The Watchtower told us we can make sense of the verse and proceeded to come up with an explanation. Multitudes believed it and stakes their lives on it. Then Watchtower changed it. Then it changed it. Then it changed.Again, again and, yet, again.My opinion on Luke 21:32, therefore, is an informed one because all efforts to explain it so far – the ones I am aware of – have failed. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:48pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
I don’t buy any of this. In fact, you are muddling things up. There is an angle I should like to tackle it from but there is no way of doing that without widening this discussion into an area I would rather leave for later since it’s a topic that should require a whole new thread. Maybe in the future after the current matter. So I will just tap it by giving this brief explanation as to why I don’t buy your submission: Jonah was sent with a message to Nineveh. Nineveh repented and the One that sent him called off the punishment. Later they went back to badness and another warning was issued because the situation that made a destruction necessary had come into being once again.There were no ambiguities here. Jonah heard clearly from God – “I will destroy”. And then God changed his mind: “I have noted their repentance and will not execute judgment anymore.” Jonah 3:10 10 And the [true] God got to see their works, that they had turned back from their bad way; and so the [true] God felt regret over the calamity that he had spoken of causing to them; and he did not cause [it]. *** In shifting the date of the fulfillment of Luke 21:32, Watchtower has never told us it was because God changed his mind like he did with the case of Jonah’s prophecy. Whenever your church comes up with a new explanation, we are told that that was the meaning Jesus had in mind when he spoke those words at the mountain, not that God had changed his mind. So I don’t know how you can compare these two situations. The facts do not allow such comparison. If Jonah was Watchtower, something else would have happened. He would have prophesied that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days. As 40 days are approaching, or on the 40th day, or shortly after it, Jonah would declare that the punishment had been shifted due to “new light” shining forth from God. It would be because he got the prophecy wrong although he would not say it like that. (Many Witnesses I have spoken to admit these “errors” so you can’t call italics an assumption as you are wont to) He would then pronounce that the prophecy was still extant, but that it was never intended to be fulfilled in the 40 days but during the lifetime of the serving king. He would make references to justify this. As the king ages and approaches his death, Jonah would make a volte-face. He would say the prophecy applied to anyone who was alive when the prophecy was made… and it would go on and people would get confused. At a point he would have altered the prophecy beyond what it was originally and he would cite those he labels “false prophets” while doing so. (In making recent changes to its explanation of this matter, the JW made references to materials written by those it terms “the scholars of the false churches of Christendom” to support latest position.) That is what Watchtower would do. (I am not speculating. Evidence abounds of everything I have said.) But that is not what Jonah did – because he actually heard from God. To summarise: Jonah would relay what God says and leave matters at that. Watchtower would relay [(a) God’s inspired prophecy (b) its understanding of God’s prophecy (c) its calculations based on an unhistorical date and several unrelated scriptures and measurements of pyramids] and when this does not come to pass, it would relay something else, and something else, and… |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:54pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Jonah’s is not magic. Watchtower’s is. Pure magic. I have reviewed the matter objectively and that is the conclusion I came to, like many others. In any case, the Watchtower Society say they are not inspired and so can be off which does not apply to Jonah so you comparing them to Jonah is also off on that point. There is nothing wrong with taking a literal approach. In fact, that is where you start from. But, please, explain why the surrounding verses – earthquakes, wars, false prophets, diseases, etc. – are literal but verse 32 is not. Or is there any rule of interpretation you know that permits you to cut and slash like in the manner you are suggesting?In any case, if someone comes and says it’s not literal, we are to listen with an open and see if he makes a good argument. Have those who say the Luke verse is not literal made a convincing argument? See above. And why you do say I have an “an unyielding stand”? Might it be because it is the case that you do have “a yielding stand”? I have responded to every point you have raised logically and scripturally. If you think you have “the truth” which “every honest-hearted person” must agree to once you lay it out, I am not responsible for your thinking. In the real world you have to make a good argument for what you are canvassing. Truth has to connect with facts. It must stand the demands of evidence as well as the rigours of logic. Like I told you, I am not here to defend any religion. You convince me and I am with you. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:56pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
This conversation can be pleasant, respectful and interesting if you didn’t go on in this manner. I raised that issue, not as a strategy, but because it helped to convey my point the same way you have brought in Jonah and then heaven/earth/hell/purgatory to help convey your point. The manner you have brought heaven/earth/hell/purgatory into the discussion is similar to the way I brought in Luke 21:32. I even put it in a different post to separate it from the main point being discussed, even though I conceived it as another example of “where the Bible is not clear”. Although by hindsight I would not have raised this issue since (1) it has already taken us to an area I had no wish to go at this point and (2) it has given rise to wholly unnecessary suspicions on your part which is not good for the discussion. To be sure, I did not raise it as a strategy to diffuse anything since I want the issue on ground treated. Anyway, I have addressed every single point you have raised. I have not shied away from any point or dodged anything and I have kept redirecting you to the initial topic when I believed you went off tangent to address another point. So it’s hard to understand why you came to the conclusion that I have an interest in seeing the topic go nowhere. I guess deploying strategies and looking for your opponent’s is just lawyerly fine. I can live with that. You lost me where you talked of “watering down any form of spirituality”.  And when you said the Witnesses do not do human ideas or philosophy, there is a very fundamental point contained in that opinion that I ought to respond to. There was no strategy there and it is not my desire to pursue it on this thread although I would be prepared touch on it by giving you the “sources of JW” – you know, like “sources of Nigerian law”. That’s fine. We can agree to talk about that as the next subject matter after the present one, that is, “…where the Bible is not clear”. Almost all I have heard already concerning that verse appear like pure magic to me. “Pure magic” applies to previous explanations given to that verse by the JW – that is why I said “if you ask him in the 1870’s…” These explanations are all down in writing and open to anyone to read and make up their minds. Whatever explanations the church might come up with tomorrow for that verse, I have not made up my mind it will be magic. You see we can’t really get away from opinions – from the informed to the purely emotional to the highly prejudiced. You are making the damning judgment that the people in a whole group don’t know why they serve God, something I have not said about the JW on this thread yet you hound me endlessly. That aside, how does the fact someone expresses his true feelings on a particular verse, which is that he does not know the meaning, amount to the fact he does not know why he serves God? The JW doctrine on heaven, repeated by you above, is not biblically sound. I am not going into it unless you want us to do so later. But let me quickly observe, as an aside, that I doubt you are aware that Heaven is the second single most controversial issue the JW church has had to deal with to date. I think it’s second only to the 607/1914 debacle. Anyone who, like me, has devoted considerable time to study the history of the JW is aware. On my comments about the controversy it has generated, I can give you some hints to pursue. Research the remote and immediate causes of the great purge at Brooklyn in 1980 and then try to figure out why the number of memorial partakers is increasing every year. That should explain why I am not “assuming” things or doing “hearsay” in terming “heaven” the second most controversial issues the church has had to deal with. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 4:59pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Wrong analogy. Being on BB is a failure on the part of that Christian. Whereas not knowing what to make of Luke 21:32 is not, since, on the surface of it, at least, the message does seem to add. I will give a similar example just to help convey what I mean here. When I asked a Christian colleague of mine why a whole God would slit the throats of forty-two children , Al Qaeda-style, for simply being children by making fun of a bald old man, she said she had no clue why God would do that, but it did not affect her faith. That is honesty and throwing your BB analogy at it doesn’t sound good. Now if I asked you about this Elisha business outside of the Bible setting, how would you answer? That is, if I someone, say bin Ladin or Bokassa slit the throats of 41 children. Like all right-thinking people, you would condemn it. If you were not a JW or defending their ideology and I asked you about Elisha you probably answer that it wasn’t right (like our logicboy would) or simply say you can’t explain it. But as a JW or a JW advocate, what would you do if I ask you? You would seek to justify it. Why would you be standing reason on its head and doing that? Is it because you lost your ability to think right and recognise pure evil or something you can’t understand? Is it because you meditated and understood the verse? Is it because you had a revelation about the verse? Is it because you paid so much attention unlike the Christian in your BB analogy? No. It would be because you have an existing commitment to repeat what has been cooked and dished out to you. I am not assuming. I have asked these questions. Omg! What is derogatory? I have already explained the “wholesale” matter or are you denying that point now? Maybe you don’t like the choice of words “dished out” but I think is an effective manner of putting it. When they finish cooking the food at your place they dish it out. When Watchtower’s leadership finishes cooking “spiritual food”, it dishes it out. I have instructions dished out to me every other day and I dish out instructions every other day. There is nothing derogatory about that. I understand how protective people can get of their groups, especially a minority group that has come in for a lot of censure, a significant proportion of it misguided and unjustified. But I think you are taking things to the point of tantrums. Anyway, I did not mean it to be derogatory but I will try to take your prickliness into consideration when choosing my words. Ok. Let’s skip that one. Maybe I will have course to raise it.
Referring to you as a JW in the course of this discussion is in order. In the debate there are two sides. You are representing the Witness viewpoint and defending the faith. Since you are on the Witness’ side in the debate, I think grouping you along with the Witnesses for the purpose of the discussion is proper. However, since you have issues with being bracketed along with the JW, I will try to bear that in mind although I can’t promise that while framing sentences I won’t sometimes refer to you and the group you are speaking for together. One must say, though, that for someone who finds fault so easily, your response is ambiguous. Anyway, nothing I have written should be construed to mean that I am questioning your prerogative to choose what you claim membership of on a public forum. There is nothing sarcastic in that portion you highlighted. As for being the only organization that suffers so much persecution, that is a highly misguided conclusion. I needn’t give you the examples. But, yes, the Witnesses have suffered a lot of persecution. And what do you mean by I “couldn’t bear it anymore?” That sort of triumphalism, besides being wholly unfounded, was impolite and fit for a children discussion, perhaps an adolescent chit chat. But more importantly, there is no grain of truth in it. Please read the discussion again and try to find where I have been on the backfoot. Wrong. You can expect me to learn. If you bring to my attention anything I was not previously aware of, I would acknowledge it, since I am not defending any creed on this thread. I am only questioning yours. I mean the one you are defending. When you made a point about agreeing and turning around to challenge what you agreed to, I reiterated the point and acknowledged its validity, while pointing out that it was beside the point. Elsewhere you have made one or two points, I have acknowledged them. But I see that just because the thread has led me to make deep interrogations of your belief you have bought the erroneous view that I am against your religion. Actually, I have appeared to defend it on this forum where people say things that are not true about it. I have never set myself up for or against any religion in Nairaland. I prefer and do enjoy sticking with objectivity within the limit that I am able to see. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 5:02pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
I asked a specific question and that was as a result of an assertion of yours. You have not specifically addressed it since you have not shown from the Bible that Christians in the first century abhorred political participation. Or have you? Let me give you instances. We know that people with more than one wife were not allowed to hold important position in the first century church. We know they frowned at the idea of women holding position in the church. If I asked about these, you would show me from the Bible. Once, I told one of your members that the Bible did not forbid eating of meat from strangled animals – I had a momentary lapse in memory. She calmly showed me from the Bible and that was that. I agreed with her and we moved on to other matters. These natters can be shown from the Bible. But what about the assertion that they shunned political participation? You have only given Bible verses which show that God’s kingdom is different from the world’s. I think that is different from saying that while still in the world Christians should show no active interest in how things are run. Unfortunately, you have hardly raised anything that was not previously raised on the thread and which I have not already addressed. Matthew 21:43 has no bearing on the matter. You have demonstrated that the Bible condemns acts of the flesh and think Christians should shun politics since it has led some people to these acts. I already asked another poster if that point was not negated by the fact some politicians do good things – and live moral lives. Oh, yes, I agree it wasn’t just because of time that Jesus stayed away from politics. The only new point you made is that he was concerned about the dangers posed by works of the flesh. Now, that is too farfetched.Talking to a woman alone have made some fall into the works of the flesh, hasn’t it? I don’t seriously believe Jesus had issues with the flesh. As for the portion you wrote on “political participation”, it has not contributed much to this discussion, even after being repeated. It simply defines the term and tells us that “the Witnesses choose not to get involved”. Yeah, that’s the matter. So I’m still wondering why you repeated it. Well, these are your views on the matter. Mine are well stated on the thread. I will leave that matter there. Now, this is really something. You are anxious to accuse of me of deviousness while getting into it by the minute. If you read that question again, you will see I meant it to apply to all the scriptures I was going to cite, so “their” oughtn’t to be in the sentence. The governor verse talks about submission to authority and I was about to compare it with the one you cited to show that submission does not mean absolute obedience to man, as a Christian is not required to surrender to man in the manner you are prescribing. You need to consider what people say deeply and in context when responding to them. But I grant you permission to read it as “What does submission to their authority mean” if that is what you want, as it takes nothing away. Coming from you… Well, I just read the questions again. They are perfectly in order in the context they were asked. There is nothing wrong with opening up with questions used as tools. You, too, have asked questions armed with answers and I have not accused you of anything. And most of my posts have used statements, not questions, so I do not think it is appropriate for you to attack me because I chose to use questions in that place. Moreover, your mindgames and attacks are taking the discussion to undesirable lows. They are degrading the conversation. Even Jesus asked rhetorical questions. My questions are not meant to hamstring you but to get my point across. They were not meant to put your brain on a short circuit and stop you from asking questions of your own like some we are familiar with. Now, you can’t compare these to stuff like “Every honest-hearted person will agree that…” or your own “Do you agree that it takes more than just mere thinking like others to be involved in managing God’s people”, with the fiat, “Answer yes or no”. I answered calmly and as directed, even though I was within my bounds in a discussion like this not to. I did not stall, quibble or prevaricate. Neither did I start a quarrel about the use of “God’s people”, a well-known hot button phrase of the JW I had earlier identified – not least because I was careful and patient enough to note that you were not necessarily referring to the JW and the phrase was properly used. When you bring analogies or situations like the Jonah one below, I calmly distinguish them for you (like they say in your profession) without accusing you of diversion. I did not expect you to answer those questions one by one, but to simply respond to the point they raise – whether or not Christians must rely wholly on instructions from the pulpit or may be guided by conscience, spiritual enlightenment and personal understanding of the Bible.
Lol. Divert nothing. Make your point. I can’t see how “God-given conscience” is now a “concocted phrase”. Recall that is the point I made from the beginning – Christians being allowed to be guided by their conscience…. That is the point, not a diversion from it. In any case, you can remove “God-given” and the meaning I intended to convey is retained.
There is no disagree over the fact that authority is vested on church leaders. I did not impose governors on verse 17. I said the same primary commandment to submit was issued. But let’s see where you are taking this. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 5:07pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Huh?
So Paul was writing from prison. Yes…. You are not clear about your point here, at all. Please explain. Oh, you expounded on it in the next post. But whatever you mean, I was not doing any diversion. One scripture says submit to your leaders (church). Another says submit to governors. I ask if submission to one does not mean absolute submission even to the point of disobeying God how come the other would. Now you say I was doing diversion and that Paul was writing from prison! I will hold off any comment till you explain what you mean.
There’s a guy in the politics section you remind me of here. See, you have not made any point, Barristers. But you want to take a moment to give yourself a pat in the back because it feels good? Go ahead. Maybe when you explain the point you were making above, I will see the “error” you speak of and understand your triumphalism since I can’t read your mind and you are yet to put it down. Thank you. Of course, I can quote the Bible. So you read it with God’s spirit? Now, that’s interesting and certainly one of the most contradictory statements I ever read on this forum. And when you say you read with “meditation”, do you mean you read verses, meditate on them and come up with your own understanding of them to guide your Christian life or that the governing council of the JW reads and meditates on them and then tell you what the verses say? Of course. But you do know the various contexts in which the word “poor” can be used, don’t you? Oh, yes, she can label me “poor boy that is supposed…” Maybe you took or take offence when they said or say that to you. It would not cross my mind to take offence if she addresses me that way. I had no malice in writing what I did and I wasn’t “branding” her, but I’m used to that from you by now. Let’s get to the point now, shall we?
Your point here as it relates to the matter under consideration is not clear. I wasn’t even talking about circumcision but about the fact Christians are not to be enslaved by men handing down such “details”. What was that about “mediator” and “approaching God directly”? Here, Barristers: Questioning the Watchtower’s authority or modus operandi in the light of scripture, reason or in any form at all does not amount to challenging Christ’s mediatorship or questioning God. It does not. Equating the Group with God is common with many religious folk, I know. It’s why I employed the word psychology earlier. It is wrong. You were meant to read it along with preceding text. Christians are to act as free men and not let anyone rule their religious lives as they flee from that which is evil. Besides your view that JWs don’t worship angels but Catholics do, do have a reason as to why emphasis should be on the portion that talks about that? What I mean is, you have not explained why we should stress that portion over the preceding text. Besides, when I quote a verse, I am allowed to highlight the portion that is relevant to the message I trying to convey. “Judging” in that verse is exactly what I term “burdening”. Here’s why. A Christian ought to be guided by his God-given conscience where clear instructions are not to be found in the Bible. Someone comes along with details of his own and tells you that if you don’t do things this way, you go against God. That is judging and that is burdening if the person was already excused by his own conscience. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 5:16pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
BARRISTERS: @Myjoe So you seriously believe I was unaware or not averting my mind to the biblical injunction to obey God as rulers rather than humans! You believe I forgot or don’t know that the injunction to obey the authorities is followed by the injunction to give absolute obedience to only God? And that you have “helped” me unearth these verses such that you go screamingin bold and italics and large prints jumping up and clapping for yourself all over thread! “Does this mean a Christian is to go against his conscience on the orders of his governor” was a rhetorical question. I’m quite flummoxed you would understand it to mean an enquiry into whether a ruler should be obeyed absolutely or not such that you would offer to help me find it’s “answers” in the verses 21 and 22! *Sighs* Ok, let me try to explain things to you, because you clearly do not get it: God told you to submit to your church leaders God told you to submit to your governor You following? Now, does the command to submit to your governor mean you should obey them even if your conscience is to be violated? No. How do we know this? Because God said we should obey him rather than men. This was so important the apostles were prepared to go to jail for it. I think that is clear but let me reiterate, Barristers, in case you still don’t get the juxtaposition of the two commandments. Now, if God says we should submit to governors, but went ahead to say we should submit to him first and more, it follows from that that we should obey church leaders, but we should submit to God first and more. Absolute obedience belongs only to God. It does not belong to the governor. It does not belong to the church leader.That was the point of the verses I quoted. Do you get it? Thank you. It seems you are so anxious to declare victory and gloat that when you see an “opening” you dive in with both hands and feet. As you are a lawyer, I believe, a young one, this is dangerous. I mean, lawyers exploit openings but experienced ones do it with caution. What you do is to try to get into the other person’s mind. That helps you to see why he said what he did. Whereas if you jump without doing that what you thought was an opening might be a bait and you will swallow it. Not that that is what happened here – there was no bait. What I meant should have been clear to any objective minded person of average intelligence. And I hope you tone down your attacks after this post. Speculate all you like about imaginary motives I have to denigrate your wonderful religion and de-convert you and your co-travellers, but if you come back at me in that manner I will assume a change of tone is in order. Have a nice day.
Now, this is a good point you have made – the fact that the apostles answered together, which suggests group work. But, no, I am not wondering why the apostles used the collective “we”. And, no, I have not labeled the apostles decision as shifting of anything – you are ascribing to me what I have not said, and that is wrong. The apostles were not taking directives from anyone the way you take from the GB. Here we have their collective decision, hence the use of “we”. That is, the decision belonged to each one of them, the ones saying “we must obey God as ruler rather than human beings”. Or can you tell me who among them was the leader who took the decision on behalf of the others the way it happens among the JW? But, still, you have a good point, especially if we assume that the decision of the apostles may have been adopted by the Christiansin the area. But I think you are losing track of the subject. I have been consistent about the fact Christians should be allowed to decide for themselves where the Bible is not clear. Not that there should be no leadership and collective worship.Can we say the matter of obeying God over men was a subjective one the way blood fractions is a subjective matter on which the Bible is not clear? We cannot say that because God in the Bible always insisted on exclusive devotion and that has never changed. That is, the injunction to obey God is clear and unchangeable. Whereas the understanding on blood fractions has changed from time to time, which means it is highly subjective. You cannot, therefore, compare a collective decision to say “we will obey God” to a collective decision to say “we will do so-and- so on medical treatment such as blood transfusion, vaccinations, and organ transplants.” |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 7:48pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
The portion following the first portion of my response is missing; that is, immediately following the word extortion. I will post it when I find the time and means to get it through the robot. Darn the robot! |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 10:29pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Thank you, manmustwac. The post, third one on this page, is fine now. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by truthislight: 2:31am On Aug 04, 2012 |
@majoe It is interesting to see how this your passing interest on this Thread with Dehomer is turning out. First you had started by using a religion catholic as a reference for comparing with the JW, but since u notice that none of those religion can withstand the comparism with the JW you have abandon that rational method that can help other readers on the thread and said you are of no religion, then what is you interest? What standard are you using to judge the JW? None: you are grabbing anything that come your way. Started by saying that they dont use there brain, later you stated that their prophesie are false or that they will defend Elijah. I had wish your argument had been on their doctrine being wrong or that there are better options in the practice of christian religion, it will have benefited us cus then we will have come to know how to worship God. Unfortunately that is not the reason you are here, but rather the following are the virtues i have come to learn from you. 1. The JW should be allowed to decide on if they should have abortion or not base on individual basis not minding what the bible says at Ex21;23 and psalm 139;16 about the unborn child, that if a pregnant woman be hit it should be soul for soul. 2.that the JW should be allowed to eat blood or take blood not minding what the bible says at Acts 15;29 as though it is not blood fractions that made up the blood mention in acts. 3. that the witnesses be allowed to have more than one wife not minding what the bible says, at Mark 10;8 that the two will become one flesh man and wife, not three becoming one flesh. (Solomon desires) 4.that marriages should not be registered not minding what the bible says giving certificate at mark at 10;2 to 5 5.That the JW are not preaching all the time as such they should be involve in politics, that it is right. John 17:14 when Xtian are suppose to b seperat that fornication is not a sin, not minding what the bible says, Acts 15:29 and 1thess 4;3, 1cor10;8, Galatians 5;19. and befor now all none virgin were commanded to be pelted with stone in israel . that they will not inherite God's kingdom. this are some of the things mention by myjoe that the JW do not do that are bad. He said that the fact that the JW elders makes mistake disqualified them from being acceptable by God and man, that moses never made a mistake. Please lets read where moses made several mistakes both in words and in actions. Numbers 20;7 to 12. meaning that true servant of God do make mistakes but should be. On this same thread he then accuses that because the JW taught what is contain in Jesus prophesie at luke 21;32, matthew24,34 that to him or them has not yet fulfill that it makes the JW false prophet . please, for you with your wrong bible knowledge this is what the JW belief and what the bible say a generation is = Exodus 1:5,6, means people of varying ages whose life span overlap with the young ones that they can relate to. So, your lack of basic bible knowledge is very Dangerous couple with the fact you claim superior intelligence. Dont you know that half knowledge is dengerouse? Just like the JW the apostles wanted to know what God's plans for the future is, Thats why they went asking Jesus are you restoring the kingdom to Real at this time? Acts 1:6 JW simply believe 100% that the bible is God's word and they teach all that is in it, including the prophesies that give so much faith. Faith that you dont have. They are interested in what the future holds as Jesus apostles did. You are a corning deceitful man. If you are honest why will you answer a question or a statement that you were asked or was told about people using BB this way? "most people dont know the bible because they go to church with blackberry and instead of listening they are pigging" but you answered with a statment that "the JW will defend Jehovah for slitting the throat of 21 children that laugh at Elijah" why? Is that the answer for that obvious misplacement of priority by the people using BB in church? Is it good to be texting in church or to listen? Was that statement of Elijah not made to lead the unwarry readers on the wrong direction? If the JW dont defend the word of God whose name they bear who then will Defend Jehovah? Satan or you? Is it that when Jesus was on earth he did not know that his father killed those number of kids for Elijah that you are now a better judge than Jesus! Your Interest so far shows the kind of person you are made of, your argument here is even worst than what the atheist do since they dont claim to believe in god. But you, you say you believe in God but you dont even stand for the truth, u will condemn Jesus prophesy saying it was not well copied or it was added or it was change just to build your claims that are base on false hood. In doing that any that ride on your back is surely heading to the pit because you are blind to what the bible says. Your kind are the type they send out from JW but there rage will lead them to embark on a damage and revenge mission. with all the lie you have posted so far and will still post what is the gain you intend to have? Afterall you dont belong to any religious group that you will say you want to direct people to, meaning that you are on a damage mission. Any way, from what i know from the JW they dont west time on people like you but use there time to help honest hearted people to know the bible. No peace |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by BARRISTERS: 3:35am On Aug 04, 2012 |
@Myjoe i still wonder why you quote bibles and think it will partly surport your appologetics only to leave you with plenty holes to fill,see below; 1 Peter 2:16-19 Act as free men, in what areas and why? verses 5-9 explained the transformation from the old law to faith in christ, while the old law required circumcision to be called among the 'sons of God' christ sacrifice has opened the door to 12,the gentiles who were formerly required to circumcise before now were declared to have freedom from the requirements of old law. and that is still the same thing that paul was also emphasizing below in your quote; Colossians 2:16-19 just as the isrealites of old celebrates 'new moon'and 'sabbath'etc.... 1 Chronicles 23:31 1 Chronicles 23 1 Chronicles 23:30-32 and whenever burnt offerings were presented to the LORD[color=#000099] on Sabbaths and at New Moon festivals and at appointed feasts. They were to serve before the LORD regularly in the proper number and in the way prescribed for them.[/color] your bible quote below does not even support your point; 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. you should have even given some thought into the directions given through paul earlier in the book of 1 corinthians 14:34-37 In eating or drinking, who do you follow? Your conscience or those who insist in burdening you with their own details? Should Christians create burdens for themselves or try to follow Jesus who said his yoke is light? Should they allow anyone to rule their religious lives or cherish the freedom procured for them by Jesus Christ? if you compare your statement with the other direction given through paul below; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37 34 [size=14pt]Let your[a] women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive[/size], as the law also says. [size=14pt]35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. [/size] [b]now, has paul burdened down the church members,isn'nt it? or even deprived the women of their right? or maybe paul has assumed the 'centre brain' for women knowing fully well that 'he will instruct them not to allow theirself to be judged or determined by leaders including paul himself, is that not how you understood it? I am saying that your church is denying Christians, many of whom are very sincere, their God-given freedom to think and choose for themselves, even in matters the Bible is not clear on which ought to be left to the individual. This freedom can be determined from reason. Many of them are also coded in the Bible, which is the constitution in this case. Even if we suspend reason and go by the Bible alone, your church would still be found culpable. Maybe you will get to address this issue now it has popped up once again due to your analogy. To satisfy your requirements, I will be specific.[size=14pt] Why does the church’s leadership not allow Christians to decide for themselves in matters of medical treatment when the Bible is not clear on the matter? For example, blood transfusion, vaccines and organ transplant.[/size]can you see parallels with paul's case below; 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive[/size], as the law also says. [size=14pt]35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. you would have asked same question from paul,questioning his authority,and accusing him of ''assuming the centre brain''brand. not so? |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by kokolet007(f): 5:49am On Aug 04, 2012 |
BARRISTERS: @Myjoe |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by kokolet007(f): 6:02am On Aug 04, 2012 |
Personally I use to tink d̶̲̥̅̊ά̲̣̣̣̥t JW r nt mindful of der tinkin ß̍̍̊ůh̶̲̥̅̊ d day I take my time to check nd study the bible den I knw d̶̲̥̅̊ά̲̣̣̣̥t TRUTH is a very bitter tin to do....I was on a public transport wen sumone was prayin nd sumone ask jokinly d̶̲̥̅̊ά̲̣̣̣̥t wat God is she prayin to nd she z God,d maker of heaven nd earth,so d person z allah or obatala or oda gods,she was jes blahbing den I nao ask my self how can u be zerving a master or God wifout knwing d name! U knw since den I take my time to study wif dem is nt an easy tin but I must tel u is d WAY! U wil get to knw God personally nd is a gud xperience knwing God is love nd he luvs me muc cos d bible z draw close to him nd he wil draw close...how can u draw close to God wifout knwing him nd obey his teachings |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 8:46pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
truthislight: @major. @all This post is made only to clear up things wrongly said about me for the benefit of the person reading this thread. The above post by Mr truthislight is a false representation of what I have said in this thread and the way events have transpired. Anyone who wants to know what I have said should read my posts. Mr truthislight’s post is a piece of jaundice, lies, and distortions. Many things he has accused me of saying in this thread are directly contrary to my views. I have argued the case against abortion on this forum and nowhere have I said anything at all about it on this thread, for or against. I have not said anything about my intelligence, inferior or superior in this thread. Nowhere have I said “fornication” is not a sin or that that anyone should marry more than one wife or that people should not register their marriages or that anyone should go play politics. Nowhere did I disqualify anyone by their mistakes or qualify Moses by his non-mistakes or stated that people should use their BB in church. And I have never claimed to be a better human person or to have a better argument than atheists to warrant a comparison with them. Apart from these, all the other things contained in the post are a complete misrepresentation of my views, stated on this tread and otherwise. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by MyJoe: 8:46pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
@BARRISTERS I hope to read and comment on your post during the week. |
| Re: What Does The Jehovah Witness & Watchtower Magazine Teach That Is Wrong ? BEWARE by Ubenedictus(m): 5:32pm On Aug 08, 2012 |
It seem d aim of this thread is to find fault, after looking critically, i dont think it is a thread worth reading. If d op really wants to point out something he should take one topic for one thread. Peace |
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