some-girl:



coincidence in my opinion.

We'd have to examine a fair amount of words to establish a relationship between west african ethnic groups and bantu speaking groups.

This is no coincidence, ma. There is a very strong connection among the various language groups in Africa, though they may have lived in isolation for several years. Obviously, there are some basic words that are recycled from generation to generation; however, some of them have remained unchanged over the years. The ancient Egyptian word for Man, MTU, is no doubt the pilot word that gave birth to the several derivates in different African language subgroups and even English. Once again, the correlation is strong!

Tony Spike:

This is no coincidence, ma. There is a very strong connection among the various language groups in Africa, though they may have lived in isolation for several years. Obviously, there are some basic words that are recycled from generation to generation; however, some of them have remained unchanged over the years. The ancient Egyptian word for Man, MTU, is no doubt the pilot word that gave birth to the several derivates in different African language subgroups and even English. Once again, the correlation is strong!

Interesting...will do some research on this.

shymexx: Everyone is mixed and most west Africans migrated from East/North East Africa, anyway...

Basically. Lolz.

I just wanted to keep this thread alive.

Well I don't know I've always been thaught. That we bantu people migrated from chad and sudan and egypt area so this nigerian origin u guyz ar talkin about is new to me tho I have to admit that the similarity in the word for person is too much to be a coincidence.
In my language which is fang the word for person is very similar to the ones mentioned previously
Moto
Mbote= plural form

Bantu is only a language group people...

Bazil: Well I don't know I've always been thaught. That we bantu people migrated from chad and sudan and egypt area so this nigerian origin u guyz ar talkin about is new to me tho I have to admit that the similarity in the word for person is too much to be a coincidence.
In my language which is fang the word for person is very similar to the ones mentioned previously
Moto
Mbote= plural form

Modern research say they passed through Eastern Nigeria/Western Cameroun while migrating southwards of Africa. However, I don't believe all Bantu groups took this migration path. My believe is that Lake Chad, which was about 300-400 times its size of today in 2500BC, provided the means of water transportation for the Bantus into EN/WC in ancient times.

Of course, the Bantus were once a powerful group occupying the Upper Nile (Southern Egypt) before the migration. Somehow, the recurrent war situations at that time (Hyksos war, I think) may have led them to flee from their original homeland. In their Southwards migration, they first settled in large numbers around Eastern Nigeria/Western Cameroun for a certain period of time. Perhaps, as a result of insufficient land and hostile territory, they started migrating southwards until they arrived South Africa about 3000 years later. Hence, the last known migration occured with the Zulus of South Africa. While migrating, the Bantus left some of their kindred on the lands they passed through. This is the most natural form of colonisation in Africa, perhaps the greatest ever known. This colonisation may explain the seemingly homogeneity in the language spectrum from Central Africa to Southern Africa.

By the way, are you Ugandan? That "Mbote" name reminds me of General Idi-Amin...lol

PhysicsQED: I don't think they were "influenced" at all, because the way I see it, diversification/differentiation of languages was the reason for the split of Bantu from non-Bantu and the Bantu languages are just a more recent unique subgroup of "Niger Congo" that attained a very large size/population of speakers.

Looking at the specific languages you mentioned (Yoruba, Edo, and Igbo), when either read or pronounced, they seem very different from (many) Bantu languages, and this difference (which is apparent not just for Yoruba, Edo, and Igbo, but for other West African languages) is probably why there was some initial resistance on the part of professional linguists to claiming that there was some sort of deep relationship between West African languages and Bantu languages, before they finally joined them. I believe there is a relationship, as attested to by the shared roots of several words, but this relationship doesn't mean that words shared between Bantu languages and non-Bantu West African languages are due to influence of one upon the other, but just that, sharing a recent origin in the same place, they diverged from a common root. However, some other language groups came from the same relatively recent common root as well.

A good example is the word you brought up in your original post, the word "omo/umu" meaning "people" or "children". Far from being a Bantu or Proto Bantu remnant/aspect of Niger-Congo languages that was derived in non-Bantu West African languages from "muntu" or variations on "muntu", I would actually see it as a remnant of an even older original language from which Niger Congo languages and Afroasiatic languages emerged. Look at the word and compare it with Hebrew and Arabic (Afroasiatic languages):


Yoruba:

omo - child (omo is also child for Edo and umu is child for Igbo)

Edo:

omwan - person

emwan - people

Igbo:

umunna - children/descendants (umu) of the same father (nna)

Arabic:

ummah - commmunity or nation

Hebrew:

ummah - nation




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah


There are other examples, of course. Another one: iya (Yoruba) - mother, nwanyi (Igbo) - woman/female, iye (Edo) - mother, eym (Hebrew) - mother

And there are others, though it would take quite a while to dig them all up.


There is a very fierce (kind of) debate I've come across that is still ongoing where some anthropologists and linguists are trying desperately to "separate" Afroasiatic from other African language groups and group Proto-Afroasiatic with proto-Indo-European or just consider Afroasiatic an isolated language family separate from other African language groups - and part of this debate revolves around (not always explicitly, but it's a relevant factor) whether one specific group, the Egyptians, are to be seen as some unique East African group with Western Asiatic influence or as some kind of "racially" Middle Eastern/Semitic/Western Asiatic group with East African influence - an argument which I don't think that those trying to change/distort the existing classification will win in the end. You can't just have Yorubas, Edos, and Igbos, totally and undoubtedly black African groups, sharing some roots for very fundamental words (not obtainable through trade) with some Semitic languages without Proto-Afroasiatic sharing the same ultimate origin with Proto-Niger-Congo. The weird thing about the debate is that it is rarely acknowledged that human languages are not discrete, but form a kind of continuum with languages in between different extremes or endpoints with respect to different aspects/features and words, so classifying a language as being closer to one group than another does not really cordon off that group into a "separate" branch of humanity like some people involved in that debate are making it seem. At the end of the day, every group is just a subgroup of an older original group until you go back to the very start of humanity.

Physics, i like your analysis in this particular response and if it would help along with Tony's initiative I'd like to add, going by your reference to "start of humanity", that the word "omo", "umu", "ummah", ....all derive from OM. The Oriental mystics got it right by invoking OM chant in prayers. Mystically, it represents the infinite energy O, bringing dynamic life to the finite energy M.

Western language and thought view the world through the mind (abstracts and concepts). African tongues and thought view the world through the senses (function and concrete).

OM is an energy which changes state. In its original it exists as water element. It has equivalents in the air, earth and fire qualities as well.

From my intimate study of Yoruba language and its esoterics, here is what OM translates to in the different elements:

omo, omi (child, water) - water
emi/emyi (breath or life) - air
ami/amyi (manifest) - earth
imo (light, enlighten) - fire

Likewise, words associated with the heaven tend to have "r" sound in Yoruba.

It would be helpful to trace the commonality of the languages by analysing their sensuality to a concrete function and thus connect the dots for their historic crossroads.

Tony,

Good thing you brought this back up. I

I dont know if this helps, in Hausa language

"Mutum" - man
"Mutane" - men
"Mace" - woman
"Mata" - women

Tony Spike:

Modern research say they passed through Eastern Nigeria/Western Cameroun while migrating southwards of Africa. However, I don't believe all Bantu groups took this migration path. My believe is that Lake Chad, which was about 300-400 times its size of today in 2500BC, provided the means of water transportation for the Bantus into EN/WC in ancient times.

Of course, the Bantus were once a powerful group occupying the Upper Nile (Southern Egypt) before the migration. Somehow, the recurrent war situations at that time (Hyksos war, I think) may have led them to flee from their original homeland. In their Southwards migration, they first settled in large numbers around Eastern Nigeria/Western Cameroun for a certain period of time. Perhaps, as a result of insufficient land and hostile territory, they started migrating southwards until they arrived South Africa about 3000 years later. Hence, the last known migration occured with the Zulus of South Africa. While migrating, the Bantus left some of their kindred on the lands they passed through. This is the most natural form of colonisation in Africa, perhaps the greatest ever known. This colonisation may explain the seemingly homogeneity in the language spectrum from Central Africa to Southern Africa.

By the way, are you Ugandan? That "Mbote" name reminds me of General Idi-Amin...lol

Lol Nah iam from Gabon

Wow nice topic.... proud of my forefathers.

Okay I don't think the climate was the real reason because till date Central Africa and Cameroon is particular in one of the most rainy region in the world.

I do have a question, how come their land was overpopulated but Central Africa is clearly underpopulated. Gabon, Cameroon, congo , CAR, etc.thanks

Tony Spike: Here are the details according to Alain Delvilani's website: http://www.everything-zulu.com/bantu-migration.html

WHO ARE THE BANTUS?
300 to 600 ethnic groups of black people in Africa speak related languages which form the Bantu language group.

These groups are distributed from east to west from Cameroon to central and east Africa and expand south to Southern Africa.

Zulu belongs to the Bantu group of languages.

Bantu means “The people”.

They originated near the south western boundary of Nigeria and Cameroon where they were settled around 2000 B.C.


CAUSES OF BANTU MIGRATION
Obviously, the exact reasons are not known but some factors may have played a role.

1. climate change: The climate may have changed and made the rain unreliable in their territories and they had to move to keep their cattle healthy and avoid famine.

2. Overpopulation occurred: Grazing land became scarcer and they had to move. Land scarcity led to war and conflicts.The pressure from the Arabs increased.

In any case, they followed different routes and the migration took centuries to reach the south of the continent. Most probably a group left an area to establish itself a little bit further and so on, in a continent which was mainly empty of human life except the pygmies in the rain forest and Khoisan groups in the east and south.

It was not a fast moving horde but more a gentle flow of newcomers.

They were not colonizers too or at least did not have that in mind.

When they met with settled group it is admitted that absorption took place by intermarriage but they could also displace them to less favorable grounds due to their higher physical force and their weapon’s superiority.


Then about 1500 B.C, the Bantu began to move westwards and then south.

TIMELINE OF THE BANTU MIGRATION
By 1500 B.C, they had reached the rain forest and by 500 B.C small groups emerged from it in the savannahs of the south where the Democratic Republic of Congo, Angola and Zambia are actually situated.

By 1000 B.C, some other groups went east and reached the great lakes of east Africa where they could flourish in a better environment.

Then they went south east following the coast and establishing themselves next to rivers.

They finally reached Kwazulu by 300 A.D and the northern province of South Africa by 500 A.D

THE CONSEQUENCES OF BANTU MIGRATION
The Bantu migration brought:

1. The use of iron smelting which was a huge technological step: Tools like hoes to till the land or machetes to clear it, were manufactured which increased the food production.

2. The way of living changed and permanent dwellings were built. New staple foods were introduced like bananas, yams and millet. The excess crop could be bartered or sold which led to the development of trade.

3. They introduced the concept of a ruling authority (the King) with an embryo of administration (councillors) running a centralised state.

On the negative side:

1. They destroyed other groups and their culture even if some intermarriage occurred.

2. They brought war and insecurity in previously peaceful areas.

In any case and as a result black people were present in Kwazulu as early as 300 A.D.

Bazil: Well I don't know I've always been thaught. That we bantu people migrated from chad and sudan and egypt area so this nigerian origin u guyz ar talkin about is new to me tho I have to admit that the similarity in the word for person is too much to be a coincidence.
In my language which is fang the word for person is very similar to the ones mentioned previously
Moto
Mbote= plural form

exactly, it is said that the Fang Beti come from Egypt, however my ethnic group which is BETI lived in North Cameroon till usman Dan fodio jihad.
@ topic,I also think, we are talking about the first recorded migrations, maybe they used to travel before but it wasn't recorded, just thinking

However, I don't think we come from Nigeria, I read about Igbo and Yoruba culture, the attire are different, the dances, the diet(food)..

We most likely come from Sudan , because like I said prior the jihad of Dan fodio we lived in Far north/North Cameroon and this is well documented.

Or maybe we lived across both countries, North Nigeria is not different from North Cameroon? .

Dudu_Negro: Tony,

Good thing you brought this back up. I

I dont know if this helps, in Hausa language

"Mutum" - man
"Mutane" - men
"Mace" - woman
"Mata" - women

Thanks, Alagba Negro. Your input has only pointed out that there was a time in history when peoples around the Nile spoke very similar (if not the same) language. Any updates on our Yoruba research so far, sir? You can update the existing thread on the Yoruba-Canaanite origin where you, Amor4ce and I usually contribute. Ese gann.

Having said that if we have to come from a part of Nigeria It's definitely North Nigeria and not Eastern Nigeria.

[size=22pt]. The Fang (Pangwe) Tribe[/size]
The territory covered by the Fang ethnic group, formerly called the Pahuins, is vast: it extends from the region of Yaounde in Cameroon to the Ogoou6 River in Gabon and includes equatorial Guinea. Since the seventeenth century, these tribes have traveled hundreds of kilometers through the heart of the forest, moving southwest.


Among the Fang eighty clans have been counted; there has never been political unity. Cohesion was maintained through the intermediary of judiciary and religious associations such as the so and the ngil. In the patrilinear Fang society, authority was in the hands of the oldest man of the family. In every village the men's house played an important role: it was the place for meetings and visitors. The men took their meals there, young bachelors lived there, and blacksmiths and sculptors worked there, enjoying general respect. From birth to death, a inale Fang was integrated into his milieu by means of rites involving every stage of his life. Circumcision was performed between the ages of eight and ten; the young boy, would learn genealogy to avoid committing incest when he chose a wife. At his marriage, he would be initiated into the so and into the family byeri cult, an ancestral cult in which initiation was accompanied by a theatrical reanimation of the dead. Each clan, and later every family head, kept a cylindrical box of tree bark in his hut containing the skulls of ancestors. Heads or full-length statuettes were placed on top of these boxes of bones, which were tied up with lianas.

....to be continued

http://www.jembetat.com/info.cfm?tribe=Fang%20(Pangwe)

CAMEROONPRIDE: Or maybe we lived across both countries, North Nigeria is not different from North Cameroon? .

I'll try to answer all your questions at once. Do you know that over 200 years ago, there was nothing like Nigeria or Cameroon? The name Nigeria or Cameroon, just like any geographical contraption, was a product of the greedy Berlin conference where France and Britain, with their allies "carved and shared" Africa on their conference table. My opinion is that most of the language groups in Nigeria and Cameroon had ancient links with Sudd (or Sudan), Misri and Kush. However, I think the Bantu influence wasn't so profound in the current physical entity called Nigeria. Ancestors of peoples from the Eastern parts of Nigerian must have had some form of link with the Bantus, especially Igbos and parts of Benue. Cross-River, Akwa-Ibom and Adamawa.

I just read that Sudan used to partly be a huge swath of marsh land or swamp. This indeed supports the theory that Lake Chad was indeed bigger than it was today in the ancient times.

We all know how our countries have been created, that's not the point, I mean look at the title of your thread.anyway I didn't feel the need to write actual Cameroon or Nigeria.

The point here is one the Bantu group near actual Nigeria, lived in North(actual Cameroon and probably Nigeria), they left because of ousman Dan fodio jihad. And his will to create his caliphate.


So the question is how come the biggest Bantu group in Central Africa lived up North in the xviii century. But are from Eastern Nigeria?

That's where I disagree...

Yes we come from Sudan that's more probable.
As for me I'm cool with Kadeii river or Adamawa plateau.

Remove xhosa out of this ahahaa

snydergp: I strongly disagree with the one who wrote that Khoisan and xhosa people came from the west africa cause that's a total lie and misrepresentation of any truth.

Khoisan people people's roots can be traced over 200,000years ago in South africa, Namibia, Botswana even as far as Angola and parts of Congo. The khiosan rock paintings in the western and northern areas in South Africa are more then 50,000 years old and is even older then the Egyptian parimids itself. Khiosan people are southern africa's first known enhabitants and is widely seen by scientist and geologist as one of the worlds first people and civilizations so please son don't come with your foot-foot nonesense.

South Africa and parts of Kenya and Ethiopia are considered as the cradils of mankind.

South Africa and Kenya showed that humankind had differrent stages of developement and that took place it the same time.

West and North Africa according too well reseached data was never the origin of mankind but Kenya and South Africa was so do your research transparently before u post your BAFOONARY here for others to read.

Don't believe in the hype son educate your mind than you can have a debate on the origins of bantu people. Maybe that's why Nigerian universities has some of the least published researched papers in the world on early human developement. Sorry but please go climb back in that tree you jumped out son

Among the Fang eighty clans have been counted; there has never been political unity. Cohesion was maintained through the intermediary of judiciary and religious associations such as the so and the ngil.

The bolded is a social norm I believe was prevalent among the migrating Bantu clans. This clannish disunity may be based on the emphasis of the survival of an individuality and their related clans. This pattern is prominent among the Igbo tribe too. The rate of clan splitting was rampant among the Igbos; this is responsible for the amazing distance between hamlets and villages. Infact, each new clan asserted its own authority and sovereignty on their new-found land. Therefore, any clan that disagrees politically might be forced to find a new home, hence, migration. I suspect this is one of the reasons for the continuous of the Bantu clans Southward. Political tolerance must have been very close to zero back then. Could this mean the Bantu clans were very territorial?

Zero political tolerance? No I don't think so,
What I know is in my ethnic group which is Fang Beti, BETI means :"Lords" and it is said only a Lord can rule or control a lord, which is a way to say I'm free and will rule myself(family)
^ yes we are very liberal.
Bu t I don't get where the Zulu took their kingship organization?
Most of the Bantu group I know don't have king ..just clan chief/family chief. Or follow the elder(note that in the Bantu community being a leader does not only depend of your age, you must combine a lot of qualities.)

We can see democracy was very common among us.

CAMEROONPRIDE: We all know how our countries have been created, that's not the point, I mean look at the title of your thread.anyway I didn't feel the need to write actual Cameroon or Nigeria.

The point here is one the Bantu group near actual Nigeria, lived in North(actual Cameroon and probably Nigeria), they left because of ousman Dan fodio jihad. And his will to create his caliphate.


So the question is how come the biggest Bantu group in Central Africa lived up North in the xviii century. But are from Eastern Nigeria?

That's where I disagree...

Yes we come from Sudan that's more probable.
As for me I'm cool with Kadeii river or Adamawa plateau.

I think we've got a problem of timeline here...I refer to the earliest known Bantu expansion that started as far back as 1800 BC - 1500 BC. We should be talking about historical events as far back as then. Uthman Dan Fodio only started his Islamic campaign later in the timeline (early 1800 AD). That's at least over 3000 years interval lost in timeline. A lot must have happen within that space, ma. I hope you get my point?

Do you speak French? Or read? We have an excellent forum and articles, which can explain you our social structure.
I don't want to post it if you won't understand.

I got u, I still don't believe the theory about our origins being in Eastern Nigeria.some of our Bantu probably split there but we clearly don't originate from there.

Tony Spike:

I think we've got a problem of timeline here...I refer to the earliest known Bantu expansion that started as far back as 1800 BC - 1500 BC. We should be talking about historical events as far back as then. Uthman Dan Fodio only started his Islamic campaign later in the timeline (early 1800 AD). That's at least over 3000 years interval lost in timeline. A lot must have happen within that space, ma. I hope you get my point?

Bazil, Mbembe kiri? Oune mvoe?

The article is very interesting. I think you can try to translate. I have to post it.

[size=28pt]1. LINEAGE[/size]



Le lignage « Mvog » traduit chez les Beti du Cameroun, l’ensemble des descendants de l’homme fondateur d’un groupe : Exemple de Mvog Atangana, Mvog Manga, Mvog Ella�

Il désigne l’ancêtre commun remontant à trois ou quatre générations ainsi que l’ensemble de ses descendants qui se regroupent à part lors des grands palabres ou rituels au sein de l’Ayoñ ou clan. Si le lignage part presque toujours d’un ancêtre homme, la tradition reconnaît cependant qu’autrefois les femmes se trouvèrent à l’origine des lignages.

Les enfants naturels, n’appartenaient pas autrefois au lignage de leur grand-père maternel comme l’on peut le remarquer aujourd’hui. Un tel enfant demeurait au village et s’entendait appeler môn dzâl « fils du village ».

Il n’avait cependant pas part à l’héritage et était même traité tel un serviteur. Ceci s’explique par le fait que son père ne lui a pas transmis la véritable puissance ou la véritable humanité qui avait fait de lui un mfan mod « véritable homme ». Il est donc un « zeze mod » ; homme vide. Si le grand-père ou son oncle maternel n’ont pas d’autres fils l’enfant naturel était adopté.

Le lignage impose le respect du lien de sang, et par conséquent interdit l’inceste. Cependant chez le Beti chaque garçon, lorsqu’il devient homme se marie et s’installe seul devenant ainsi chef de la nouvelle famille. Au départ, le lignage se fragmente tout en gardant des liens solides qui au cours du temps s’affaiblissent au point que l’interdit d’inceste et de guerre finit par être violé. (C’est le cas avant les Européens, entre Mvog Zang et Mvog Manzé dans la région de Minlaaba). Cela s’explique d’abord par l’accroissement des rivalités et compétition entre lignages ; ensuite par l’abandon de l’exogamie et de l’exopolémie claniques.
http://www.culturevive.com/betifang/organisation.htm
To be continued...

http://www.culturevive.com/betifang/organisation.htm
Okay the spam got me.
^ you can read more about Fang- Beti social structure here.

It was a very competitive society, young male were expelled and have to build their own village, tho the cause. Of this new clan and village wasn't always expulsion.

Tony Spike:

Thanks, Alagba Negro. Your input has only pointed out that there was a time in history when peoples around the Nile spoke very similar (if not the same) language. Any updates on our Yoruba research so far, sir? You can update the existing thread on the Yoruba-Canaanite origin where you, Amor4ce and I usually contribute. Ese gann.

Tony,

Going as far back one could go in history to understand the connections would require stapping out of written history and obtaining contributions from oral history. Africans recorded their history in relative terms......

during the reign of;
at a time when the lake dried;
in the war of;
when the famine came;

These are markers for migration. Im not sure we have people here that can contribute at that level. The best we have to go by is writings of European explorers and their journey through Africa, which is very fresh and occurred after the migratiins had ended.

Yes, i found a lot more things actually and im attempting to create an index but the time is not there and working it alone is very daunting. I posted in that thread but you must have missed it offering a joint collaboration with you and amor4ce. Let me know if you are interested.

I don't speak French. Quite sorry about that. Learnt very little French in my high school though. These are my views about the Bantu expansion theory:

A) The Bantus once occupied areas around the ancient Misri and Sudan pre-2500 BC.

B) Political upheavals around Egypt and its vassal states (Sudan and Kush/Nubia) affected the Bantus which led to their early migrations out of their homelands.

C) These migrations started as far back as 2000 BC.

D) SOME of the INITIAL migrants settled around Western Cameroun/Eastern Nigerian. These migrants may have taken advantage of the large water body occupying the areas around modern Chad, Niger and Cameroon to transport themselves.

E) Again, certain conditions led SOME clans to start migrating Southwards in search of political autonomy and economic prosperity in terms of land ownership.

F) The migration eventually ended at the Southernmost tip of Africa (South Africa) approximately after over 2000 yrs of wandering around Eastern Africa, Central Africa and Southern Africa.

G) The Nigerian/Cameroun route was not the only migration path of the Bantus. It is believed that some migrated through other routes e.g. through Kongo into Kenya and Tanzania. Infact, there are several possible routes too...

These are my views...

CAMEROONPRIDE: I got u, I still don't believe the theory about our origins being in Eastern Nigeria.some of our Bantu probably split there but we clearly don't originate from there.

Cameroonpride,

i think the subject line was a rhetorical question and not a statement to that effect of Bantu originating in Nigeria. It was left open to induce response and discussions. Outside of European recordings are there any info on the myths and passages of the different Bantu kings and the land generally tha you can share?

whats this talk of egypt? lol seriously



anyway ethiopian and somali history put any west african history to shame.

somalia9: whats this talk of egypt? lol seriously



anyway ethiopian and somali history put any west african history to shame.

^^^ You troll!!! You are here again.