Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

I'm amazed at the extreme we go in the condemnation of The law.the law is a foundation . The law contains principles of God . You can't throw the law away. It's a foundation .

Psalms 11:3
If the foundations be destroyed,
what can the righteous do?

Let's look at the future of condemnation of the law .It's not just about the now.Today the argument is on tithing tomorow may be offering and next it will be about murder!

The only things done away in the law were clearly spelt out. But the principles in the law remains as foundation .

Someone may say its the Holy Spirit that tells me what is right and what is wrong . Another person says it's my conscience that matters.as long as your mind doesn't condemn you.

All these a nice but without a foundation of rightness or wrong it will end in error.

WHAT IS SIN?

We have enough issue with gay movement in the church today tomorow it will be worse.

We have already seen thread on this site where posters say fornication is not a sin. "As long as two of you feel right about it consensually etc.

Without the law homosexuality will be justified. "after all it's my body" without the you can sleep with your own daughter by consent if two of you feel good about it. May be soon with infants.

We may give ourselves good excuses for our wrongs if we take away God standard of morality . Your conscience cannot be a guide without foundational knowledge . Conscience can be corrupt and there will be no guilt for wrong doings . Killing , stealing, murder etc will be justified by revelation . At the end of the day we will wonder where we find ourselves "does sin really exist " then we we will wonder what salvation really is. What are we bringing sinners out of. What's the difference between us and the world.

Apostle paul knew the value of the law. I get amazed when Christians fight against principles in the law. And they fail to see how many times the early apostles quoted the law. It is more amazing to know that Paul was quoting these laws to Gentiles who didn't have a law! Time will not permit me to bring out all those references to the law by early apostles.

When paul told Timothy to study we should ask ourselves what scripture was he studying? Was it Mattew mark and luke? No it was the Old Testament they had as scriptures. The Gentiles were studying the Old Testament . The New Testament scriptures was based on the old.

Scripture in the early church was Old Testament that's why the apostles quoted them to Gentiles

1 Timothy 5:18
For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

1 John 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Ephesians 6:2
Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

All these were based on Old Testament Scriptures , there are many more . But let me just stop on these . You can add more for me.

The only issue with the law now is that a man cannot recieve justification by the law. We are justified by grace through faith as a gift . But the principle in the law are Gods principles which haven't changed .

2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Wow!...exceptional piece, we actually have to let folks see that the law is not totally bad...be right back with my additions

The Teachings of Jesus

By the time of Jesus, the great moral principles God had given to Moses in the Ten Commandments had been turned into hundreds of ceremonial rules. People thought they were living holy lives if they just obeyed all those rules. But Jesus disagreed. He said people found enough "loopholes" to obey all the rules and still live wicked and greedy lives (Matthew 23:23-28).

Jesus made one statement about the Law that often causes confusion:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

Christians have struggled to understand exactly what Jesus meant. At first reading, this seems to say that all the Old Testament rules and rituals must still be observed. But Jesus and His disciples did not observe many of those rules and rituals, so it could not mean that.

It is frequently pointed out that the term "the Law" could have many different meanings at the time of Jesus:

The ceremonial laws including "clean" and "unclean" lists, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, ritual washings, etc.
The civil law regulating social behavior and specifying crimes, punishments and other rules
The moral and ethical laws, such as the Ten CommandmentsThe Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible)
The scribal law - the 600+ rules formulated by the scribes that everyone was expected to obey
The Scripture as a whole

[size=16pt] Jesus did not abolish the moral and ethical laws that had been in effect from the time of Moses. [/size] He affirmed and expanded upon those principles, but He said obedience must be from the heart (attitudes and intentions) rather than just technical observance of the letter of the law (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-42, 43-44, etc.).

However, Jesus and His disciples did not observe the strict scribal rules against doing any work on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-14,Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6, Luke 6:1-11, 13:10-17, 14:1-6, John 5:1-18). Neither did they perform the ritual hand washings before eating (Matthew 15:1-2). In contrast to the dietary rules of the Law, Jesus said no food can defile a person; it is bad attitudes and actions that can make a person unholy (Matthew 15:1-20, Mark 7:1-23).

Jesus frequently criticized the scribal laws (Matthew 23:23, Mark 7:11-13) and some aspects of the civil law (John 8:3-5, 10-11). [size=16pt] Therefore, Jesus was specifically teaching that the moral and ethical laws in the Scripture would endure until the end of time. [/size]

That would be consistent with His actions and other teachings. Through His teachings and actions, Jesus revealed the true meaning and intent of the Law.It is also pointed out that Jesus, Himself, is the fulfillment of the Law (Matthew 26:28, Mark 10:45, Luke 16:16, John 1:16, Acts 10:28,13:39, Romans 10:4)  The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross ended forever the need for animal sacrifices and other aspects of the ceremonial law.

@joagbaje, yeah, ethics and moral laws are principles of God, they are not abolished, and like u rightly pointed out, conscience and other yardsticks folks wanna use to justify their acts would ALWAYS end in error, the law is th e foundation of right and wrong. Folks esp anti tithers say the law is completely abolished, just to nullify tithing, but the fail to see that when Paul asked Timothy to study, it was actually the law of Moses, ethics and morals, not ceremonial cleasing or scribal law etc. They say the law is completely abolished, but they don't have sexx with their siblings or infants, just because "conscience" is at work, forgetting that terrorist who bomb up pple have the their own form of conscience, which to them is right... some folks who never had any form of upbringing thinks it is right to kill who ever pisses them off, that is his conscience...what then? It all ends in error without the foundation in the law....the laws of the western world were crafted outta tye Bible (laws of moses)...be it death penalty, laws against rape, inbreeding, murder, robbery etc. How then do we reconcil the fact that the law is completely abolished with the fact that its moral and ethical stance arenvery much operational today and acceptable to God?

And as u rightly pointed out again, the only issue with the law, the only problem with is was that it cannot bring justification for anybody... hewbrews 7:11 and 19, they said, the Law never made anything perfect, that's why Jesus had to come, to get us that perfection. No wonder he said he didn't come to abolish the law.

The fact is that we are NO LONGER under the law, simply because it made nothing perfect, not because it is not Good (paul said in rom7v7 that the law is not sinful, in other words, the law of God is not identical to sin)

I look forward to a wonderful session on this topic!

@Joagbaje,
The problem is that many do not even under stand that when the law was given there were two aspects to it. One is of the Spirit and one is of the Letter. The letter was what was written down on stone while the Spirit of it are the principles which God was trying to achieve by that law. Give two people a written word and watch how both go about accomplishing it. It is usually different and it will be a reflection of the heart that recieved it. So it is not the word but the perception or interpretation of it.
Cain and Abel both gave gifts to God before the law but God had respect to one and did not to the other....what was the basis? The person, and the act was a reflection of that person.

When God gave Adam the law not to eat of the tree in the middle of the garden, He was seeking obedience from man so man can have life. God's laws are life but it can also cause death when the letter is held on to instead of the Spirit.

In Romans 7:22, Paul says 'For I delight in the law of God after the inward man'. Jesus came to work on the inward man. When Jesus spoke of the WEIGHTHIER matters of the law, he was speaking of the law of God for the inward man i.e. love, faith, mercy, fairness. Jesus was saying the weightheir matters of the law are those aspects that God sees and judges for God judges the motives of a man first besides the acts.

1 Corinthians 4:5
So don't make judgments about anyone ahead of time--before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due

Proverbs 16:2
People may be pure in their own eyes, but the LORD examines their motives


Anyone who takes a cursory look at the ministry of Jesus, will notice He was always speaking about the inner man. When he said "Do not kill" means "Do not hate" and "Do not commit adultery" means "Do not lust", he was saying the only way we will not do such wrong ACTIONS that displease God is when we have the right "MOTIVES".

That is why the bible says in I Corinthians 13, that if a man offers his body to be burned or give his all to the poor yet has no love, it is a waste. It is possible to profess God with the mouth but the heart is far from Him.

The fruits of the Spirit are all according to the inward man. There is not law against them for when our actions are borne out of love, we do right which ensures we are not under the law. The bible confirms that they that Walk in the Spirit are not under the law. But if anyone does kind acts yet hates the person he is doing it to, it is seen as murder for the bible says 'but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel'.

Guarding our heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life just means we need Jesus constantly. We constantly need to run to His throne of Grace to obtain mercy when we err and find grace to help us when we need to be zealous for His good work. Grace is powerful and many should realise that grace is what enables us to do right when we view the mirror of God's word and see where we need to work on. The Holy Spirit does not contradict the Word of God for the three bear witness. What the Father said, the Word (The Son) confirmed and the Spirit guides in all truth to do it right.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one
That is where discernment and testing of Spirit comes in. Any spirit that does not agree with the Father and the Word is not of God.

Nice expose from the OP

Hmmmn..What more can i say? You guys have said it all...
Lol..they even called me law keeper, law lover, judaizer..all in the name of scriptural tithes..May God open our eyes and ears to see and hear that God is no respecter of persons but a respecter of His principles which are eternal.

How do we know and express our LOVE for God? Simply by keeping His commandments which are not really burdensome.It takes the Holy Spirit to do that.Paul knew what he was talking about when he said "I die daily":His commandments are simply obeying scriptures because these scriptures are life and health to our flesh.We don't only stop and believing the scripture..We ACT on the Word of God...Shikena!!!

We do not look @ d mirror of God's word and forget the manner of persons we are. We rather look at the mirror in order to become like Christ.

Lawless folks always look at the mirror and forget who they are in CHRIST.

Like i always tell these grace teachers who preach grace as a license for sin is: The basic requirement for LIFE in the Kingdom of God is personal holiness.( Mathew 7:21-23).

I can't talk and quote scriptures as i would have loved to jare..cos am on phone..When i get back to my lappy i would gist more..

Thanks OP and others...

We shall be having great time of fellowship here.

I'd lve to ask thosenwho said the law is completely abolished....when Jesus said to em Pharisees in Matt 23, that they NEGLECT THE WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF [size=16pt] THE LAW... [/size] What law was Jesus talking about?

Those things Jesus listed out, are they principles of God, or not? Were they ceremonial laws or laws of ethic and morals?
Were they abolished too?

Grace convention that held on NL last year, was a sham, i read all forms of rubbish, and watch supposed Christian 'teachers/scholars' err. If I dig up that thread and bring up what some brethren posted there in the name of preaching/having a 'talk', y'all would be amazed!

^^^

Relax mehn, we will have a wonderful time of fellowship. The thread has started already, it cannot be deleted until all issues resolved and thereafter, the thread remains for as long as this forum remain. Calm down mehn, you dig up, I dig up. Three people cannot stand in pairs. Welcome on board.

Regardless of what the OP says, these scriptures cannot be expunged from the New Testament:

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin - Romans 3:20

The purpose for the giving of the law was to bring the knowledge of sin. The law was a school master to bring us to the matter of faith in Christ (Galatians 3:19,24)

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets - Romans 3:20

No matter how good the law was, it could never bring the righteousness of Christ. God's righteousness has been revealed today. It is witnessed by the law and prophets because the law and prophets or the Old Testament spoke about its coming.

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: - Romans 3:21

This righteousness is not self righteousness; it is not good deeds; it is doing our best; it is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD! Woe betide any man who approaches the throne of God without that garment of righteousness regardless of how "zealous for the law" they are.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. - Romans 11:6

The righteousness of God revealed to sinners apart from the law is a subject of God's grace. It is grace, grace and grace. It is not law and it can never be works. The two, grace and works, are anti-thesis to each other. If you are not secured in grace, you will find your security in works. And that way you shall fall from grace, Galatians 5:4

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: - Phillipians 3

I think the above scripture is self explanatory enough. I have said it and will say it again, the only thing that law advocate can do on this forum is to tell us that Paul the apostle is not an inspired author of scripture. This they can do honorably than resort to twisting his writings to their own destruction.

To be continued...

Joagbaje:
Let's look at the future of condemnation of the law .It's not just about the now.Today the argument is on tithing tomorow may be offering and next it will be about murder!

I believe it's wrong for anybody to say he is tithing as required by law, and i will be here to critic if and when you come here tomorrow and say you give offering because the law says Christians should give offering or Christians should not kill because that what the law says.

Joagbaje:
Someone may say its the Holy Spirit that tells me what is right and what is wrong . Another person says it's my conscience that matters.as long as your mind doesn't condemn you.
All these a nice but without a foundation of rightness or wrong it will end in error.

You should first ask yourself this question; can the Holy Spirit mislead children of God into error? if your answer is no, then what the issue in someone saying the Holy Spirit tells him/her what is right or wrong?

DrummaBoy: Regardless of what the OP says, these scriptures cannot be expunged from the New Testament:

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin - Romans 3:20

The purpose for the giving of the law was to bring the knowledge of sin. The law was a school master to bring us to the matter of faith in Christ (Galatians 3:19,24)

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets - Romans 3:20

No matter how good the law was, it could never bring the righteousness of Christ. God's righteousness has been revealed today. It is witnessed by the law and prophets because the law and prophets or the Old Testament spoke about its coming.
.

Maybe you didn't read my post very well . I never said we get justified by the law . I made it clear that the only weakness of the law was that it lacked the ability to make man righteous . We are justified by faith only . The point of the thread is about the importance of the foundational principles they contain .

Joagbaje:
WHAT IS SIN?

We have enough issue with gay movement in the church today tomorow it will be worse.

We have already seen thread on this site where posters say fornication is not a sin. "As long as two of you feel right about it consensually etc.

Without the law homosexuality will be justified. "after all it's my body" without the you can sleep with your own daughter by consent if two of you feel good about it. May be soon with infants.

You are not saying anything new or different from what some of us been saying. Read your post above and see that it aligns very well with the saying that the law is not for the righteous. From ya post, i read gay movement, fornicators, child molesters but nothing relating to the righteous. The reason why Pauls says the law was meant for these category of people....

1 Timothy 1:8-10 (NIV)
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

so if you belong to any or all of these category of people, the law is for you.

Joagbaje:
Your conscience cannot be a guide without foundational knowledge .

While i agree with the idea of foundational knowledge, how do explain the case of God's people before the law? e.g. Noah...

Genesis 6:9 (NIV)
9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

Maybe the law is not the only source of foundational knowledge.

Joagbaje:

Maybe you didn't read my post very well . I never said we get justified by the law . I made it clear that the only weakness of the law was that it lacked the ability to make man righteous . We are justified by faith only . The point of the thread is about the importance of the foundational principles they contain .

Joe, my beloved brother, don't mind those who uphold the law more than faith in the finished works of Christ. Your teaching is clear enough, you have used the law IN THE WAY IT SHOULD BE USED but not everything you said in the opening post is true and correct, we will have fellowship together.

Joagbaje:
Apostle paul knew the value of the law. I get amazed when Christians fight against principles in the law. And they fail to see how many times the early apostles quoted the law. It is more amazing to know that Paul was quoting these laws to Gentiles who didn't have a law!

Quoting the law is not the same thing as 'doing' the law. Some of us are against the 'doing'. There is nothing wrong with quoting the law (if you are not quoting for the purpose of doing).

Here we go again,SMH

The ceremonial laws including "clean" and "unclean" lists, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, ritual washings, etc.
The civil law regulating social behavior and specifying crimes, punishments and other rules
The moral and ethical laws, such as the Ten CommandmentsThe Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible)
The scribal law - the 600+ rules formulated by the scribes that everyone was expected to obey
The Scripture as a whole

DrummaBoy: Regardless of what the OP says, these scriptures cannot be expunged from the New Testament:

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin - Romans 3:20

The purpose for the giving of the law was to bring the knowledge of sin. The law was a school master to bring us to the matter of faith in Christ (Galatians 3:19,24)

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets - Romans 3:20

No matter how good the law was, it could never bring the righteousness of Christ. God's righteousness has been revealed today. It is witnessed by the law and prophets because the law and prophets or the Old Testament spoke about its coming.

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: - Romans 3:21

This righteousness is not self righteousness; it is not good deeds; it is doing our best; it is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD! Woe betide any man who approaches the throne of God without that garment of righteousness regardless of how "zealous for the law" they are.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. - Romans 11:6

The righteousness of God revealed to sinners apart from the law is a subject of God's grace. It is grace, grace and grace. It is not law and it can never be works. The two, grace and works, are anti-thesis to each other. If you are not secured in grace, you will find your security in works. And that way you shall fall from grace, Galatians 5:4

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: - Phillipians 3

I think the above scripture is self explanatory enough. I have said it and will say it again, the only thing that law advocate can do on this forum is to tell us that Paul the apostle is not an inspired author of scripture. This they can do honorably than resort to twisting his writings to their own destruction.

To be continued...

Drummaboy, if u read my post, u wud see that the LAW meant different things to different context. I listed em above... I and the op clearly stated that the Law couldn't justify anybody, that was why Jesus had to come. What u posted above was kike we are saying the law made one righteous

We are saying the law was not completely abolished like most of u think...the ethical and moral parts for example, stand till eternity, so are other principles...get the difference...later now, u go recommend ur blog for us..

Gombs: The ceremonial laws including "clean" and "unclean" lists, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, ritual washings, etc.
The civil law regulating social behavior and specifying crimes, punishments and other rules
The moral and ethical laws, such as the Ten CommandmentsThe Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible)
The scribal law - the 600+ rules formulated by the scribes that everyone was expected to obey
The Scripture as a whole



Drummaboy, if u read my post, u wud see that the LAW meant different things to different context. I listed em above... I and the op clearly stated that the Law couldn't justify anybody, that was why Jesus had to come. What u posted above was kike we are saying the law made one righteous

We are saying the law was not completely abolished like most of u think...the ethical and moral parts for example, stand till eternity, so are other principles...get the difference...later now, u go recommend ur blog for us..

Literally SMH.

Gombs: The ceremonial laws including "clean" and "unclean" lists, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, ritual washings, etc.
The civil law regulating social behavior and specifying crimes, punishments and other rules
The moral and ethical laws, such as the Ten CommandmentsThe Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible)
The scribal law - the 600+ rules formulated by the scribes that everyone was expected to obey
The Scripture as a whole

Since both you and Jo' claim to be saying the same thing with me only that you are saying a little "more" than I said, I will not continue with my original text but will only add a little bit to what you have written above; let me lend you into a little "a,b,c" I learnt on nairaland.com religion section:

There is no such thing as [size=16pt]CIVIL, MORAL, ETHICAL,or SCRIBAL[/size] laws in the whole of the bible - including the Old Testament where you are referring to (forgive my enlarging the text; it is for emphasis sake, so that no one can claim not to see them). This is what the scripture says of all laws in the Old Testament from 2 Corinthian 3:

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

We are New Testament ministers. We, New Testament minister, are the ones who minister "of the Spirit". Those who minister the Old Testament, we will yet see, are the minister of death. So the subject of spirit ministers is not because of one cool revelation we got from reading the old Testament but the fact that we understand what the New Testament is all about. This testament is ratified by the blood of Jesus. And everything that blood sort to provide us is the ministration of the New Testament. Thus anyone who resorts to the Old Testament or the Old Covenant for so called revelations to live the Christian life are ministers of death!

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

This ministration of death is neither ceremonial, ethical, scribal or moral laws. This ministration of death is what was engraven on the stone by the finger of God himself - THE TEN COMMANDMENT! And note that the ten commandment is the foundation for all the other 613 jewish laws in the bible. So if the ten commandment is a ministration of death; so also is all the others. So the matter is still not thinking that the law was designed for our justification or not; the matter is that there is no place for the law in the New Testament. It is a ministration of death. Christ death did not happen so that we may have grace to keep the law. Christ's death abolished the law - which scripture rightly calls enmity with God(Ephesian :15). So I say again whichever of you wish to use the law, either for justification or whatever else at all, you have fallen from grace; Christ is of no effect to you!

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The ministration of the spirit, the New Testament is the source of true and enduring glory. Anything else is a source of fading glory.

So at the end we should realize that we are not saying the same thing. Rather we are saying a lot of different stuffs. Here I am laying foundation and will still go on to quote a man of God on the subject of DISPENSATION. A subject that settles every matter of doctrinal conflicts about the law but which will continue to annoy law advocates because it puts to naught this love and zealousness for the law. When I am done doing that, I will talk about tithing - the subject that has makes all of us angry on this forum. And the truth is that it is supposed to be so because just like circumcision in Paul's day, tithing as a subject calls all of us back to understanding the scripture better.

When I am done with that I will be calling the house, especially my many good friends and laws advocates (I believe law advocate is very much better than modern day judaizers - that is me reforming my language not to annoy some people too much this year 2014) to come to the tithe disscuss thread where justice is being done to the subject to make their contribution for the sake of posterity and as many as are looking for light into the subject of tithing.

Dispensations by R. B. Thieme (Jnr), next.

DrummaBoy:

Since both you and Jo' claim to be saying the same thing with me only that you are saying a little "more" than I said, I will not continue with my original text but will only add a little bit to what you have written above; iut let me lend you into a little "a,b,c" I learnt on nairaland.com religion section:

There is no such thing as [size=20pt]CIVIL, MORAL, ETHICAL,or SCRIBAL[/size] laws in the whole of the bible - including the Old Testament where you are referring to (forgive my enlarging the text; it is for emphasis sake, so that no one can claim not to see them). This is what the scripture says of all laws in the Old Testament:

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

We are New Testament ministers. We, New Testament minister, are the ones who minister "of the Spirit". Those who minister the Old Testament, we will yet see, are the minister of death. So the subject of spirit ministers is not because of one cool revelation we got from reading the bible but that we understand what the New Testament is all about. This testament is ratified by the blood of Jesus. And everything that blood sort to provide us is the ministration of the New Testament. Thus anyone who resorts to the Old Testament or the Old Covenant for so called revelation to live the Christian life are ministers of death!

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

This ministration of death is neither ceremonial, ethical, scribal or moral laws. This ministration of death is what was engraven on the stone by the finger of God himself - THE TEN COMMANDMENT! So the matter is still not thinking that the law was designed for our justification or not; the matter is that there is no place for the law in the New Testament. It is a ministration of death. Christ death did not happen so that we may have grace to keep the law. Christ's death abolished the law - which scripture rightly calls enmity with God. So I say again whichever of you wishes to use the law for justification or whatever at all have fallen from grace; Christ is of no effect to you!

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The ministration of the spirit, the New Testament is the source of true, enduring, glory. Anything else is a source of fading glory.

So at the end we should realize that we are not saying the same thing. Rather we are saying a lot of different stuffs. Here. I am laying foundation and will still go on to quote a man of God on the subject of DISPENSATION. A subject that settles on matter of doctrinal conflicts but will continue to annoy law advocates because it puts to naught this love and zealousness for the law. When I am done doing that, I will talk about tithing - the subject that has makes all of angry on this forum. And the truth is that it is supposed to be so because just like circumcision in Paul's day, tithing as a subject calls all of us back to understanding the scripture better.

When I am done with that I will be calling the house, especially my many good friends and laws advocates (I believe law advocate is very much better than modern day judaizers - that is me reforming my language not to annoy some people too much this year 2014) to come to the tithe disscuss thread where justice is being done to the subject to make their contribution for the sake of posterity and as many as are looking for light into subject of tithing.

Dispensations by R. B. Thieme )Jnr), next.

Did you just say there are no such thing as civil, moral, ethical and scribal laws in the bible?... na wa o, just so u know, death penalty started in the Bible... the laws of the Western world including civil laws were coined out of the bible, how then did u conclude that there aint such thing as civil, moral, ethical and scribal laws in the WHOLE people?

Chaaaaaaaaaaaaai

Gombs:

Did you just say there are no such thing as civil, moral, ethical and scribal laws in the bible?... na wa o, just so u know, death penalty started in the Bible... the laws of the Western world including civil laws were coined out of the bible, how then did u conclude that there aint such thing as civil, moral, ethical and scribal laws in the WHOLE people?

Chaaaaaaaaaaaaai

There is no such thing as civil, moral, ethical and scribal laws in the bible. I am not talking about laws among nations. We are talking bible here. And when you find civil, ceremonial, ethical or scribal laws in the bible, especially the Old Testament, you may refer us there. Thank you.

I can assure our readers, this thread is gonna be one of the best, aside of tithe threads that I will ever present Apostolic teachings on.

#following

Goshen360: I can assure our readers, this thread is gonna be one of the best, aside of tithe threads that I will ever present Apostolic teachings on.

And I can see that you are just warming up. Make I discharge and come back and watch you do your thing soon enough...

[size=16pt]DISPENSATIONS[/size]

The panorama of dispensations reveals the majestic character of God through the progression and variety of His grace. Each dispensation has a divine purpose, supported by the right divine provisions. The riches of grace available in the Church Age (Church Age is the dispensation between the resurrection of Christ up till the rapture of the saints), for example, correlate with God’s special objective of glorifying the resurrected Christ to the maximum. This purpose and these provisions explain why the Christian way of life differs from the outpouring of God’s grace to believers during other periods of history(or other dispensations). The Church Age believer should be eager to understand and use what God has designed specifically for him and thus allow the glory of God to be manifest in his life.

Still, someone might ask, why not regard the bible as a single whole? Isn’t that simpler? Why complicate things with all these distinctions? The primary reason is because the bible makes these divisions. Continuities and distinctions established by sovereign God must receive our complete respect, for they reveal something about Him. The unity of God’s Word actually is embodied in this doctrine (of dispensations) which present the relationship between the Bible’s various parts.

A second reason for recognizing distinctions in the Bible is that the believer needs to know how to conduct his life. As he learns to utilize what God has given him, he becomes aware of divine policies and assets that are legitimate for other dispensations but that do not directly govern the Christian way of life. When there seem to be contradictions, which commands should we obey? When questions arise, he needs answers. The doctrine of dispensations provide the biblical system of interpretation for understanding why certain divine provisions are currently nonoperational, as well as why other currently operational.

In no way does this mean the believer can pick and choose which divine command he wants to obey. Each dispensation is God’s administration, not man’s, and God gives firm and ample guidance for every period of history. Advancing believers are not disobedient or in danger of lawlessness simply because they do not observe the rules God set for another age (or dispensation). Indeed, their spiritual growth comes from obedience to God’s instructions for the current dispensation. The doctrine of dispensations relieves the Christian’s doubts about whether or not God holds him responsible for observing certain practices. This gives his life direction, frees him from a false sense of obligation or guilt, and by answering his questions encourages him to delve deeper into the riches of the Word of God.

The well-informed believer is able to compare and contrast the dispensations. He understands the implication of many statements such as:

You are not under law (the dispensation of Israel) but under grace (the dispensation of the church) – Romans 6:14b, NASB

But now that faith (the entirety of what is believed or the mystery doctrine of the dispensation of the church age) has come, we are no longer under a tutor (the law of Moses) – Galatians 3:25, NASB

Therefore let no one act as your judge in regards to… things (significant in the Old Testament ritual) which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ (who sets the precedence for the believer’s life in the Church Age dispensation) – Colosians 2:16-17, NASB

The study (on dispensation) provides a framework for understanding the Word of God. It also will help protect the Christian from blurring biblical distinctions, from distorting a true doctrinal sense of proportion, and from misapplying divine commands. The doctrine of dispensations teaches what the Christian way of life is – and what it is not.

Culled from the book by R. B. Thieme (Jnr) THE DIVINE OUTLINE OF HISTORY – Dispensations and the Church. The text above is titled RESPECT FOR DIVINE DISTINCTIONS in the book.


I will beg those who find it hard to read long texts to try and read this one.

I understand that Pastor Thieme is human like most of us and very subject to fallability. But I have lent his opinion on this matter because it is unbelievable how terribly ignorant of the subject of dispensation most of us are. I confess that until about a year ago, I myself did not know what it meant. So we can debate bible doctrines but we can also resort to the wisdom of those who have gone ahead of us.

END

https://www.nairaland.com/1116294/three-types-laws-bible-responsibilities

DrummaBoy:

There is no such thing as civil, moral, ethical and scribal laws in the bible. I am not talking about laws among nations. We are talking bible here. And when you find civil, ceremonial, ethical or scribal laws in the bible, especially the Old Testament, you may refer us there. Thank you.

It's a shame that u don't know the bible or what it says...

The above thread was of 2012, though the author is an anti tither like u, at least he knew the different types of laws in the OT.

I'm done going round circles with you, post something worth debating or just, sit at the sidelines. Thanks

Goshen, before u comment, notice what u said in the above link and make sure u r consistent with it u said Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was still the OT, but arranged under the NT.... hmmmmm, ok o.

The fulfilling the law part...hmmmmmm, Goshen o

Gombs: https://www.nairaland.com/1116294/three-types-laws-bible-responsibilities

It's a shame that u don't know the bible or what it says...

The above thread was of 2012, though the author is an anti tither like u, at least he knew the different types of laws in the OT.

I'm done going round circles with you, post something worth debating or just, sit at the sidelines. Thanks

I am going to muster all the "moral" strength within me to ignore your insulting me. This is a New Year and I am determined that my discusses on this forum is going to be as civil as I can muster.

I thank you for refering me to the above thread by an anti-tither. But I did not request for a thread, not even one by an anti-tither. I requested for a bible verse that divides the laws God gave Moses into civil, ceremonial, moral, ethical or scribal; or any verse at all in the whole of the bible that divides those laws into any two or more distinctions. What I read in the NT is that the law of Moses is seen as one entity called LAW.

Another New Year resolution is not to enter into debates on bible doctrines on this forum. I prefer discussions. We have succeeded in making one here: https://www.nairaland.com/1548047/theological-discuss-tithing-rhymeyjohn-image123. For which you and your "allies" are invited to come and learn how theological discusses can be most civil and edifying, devoid of insults and jibes.

On a final note here, I am not lawless. The teachings of Jesus and the letters of Paul provide ample substances for the way and manner a Christian must conduct himself. Example Ephesian 4-6; Colosians 3. These admonitions are the way of life God will direct the believer in Christ in the New Testament church to live out. This laws or way of life are in accordance with the summary law of God which is to LOVE.

^^
I did not insult u... "it's a shame" you think I did.

It's a shame means it's a pity....now, to u, that's an insult?

Oya, let me ask this, in matt 23v23, what were the weightier matters of d LAW Jesus spoke about..cn u kindly list them here? Thank you

Gombs: ^^
I did not insult u... "it's a shame" you think I did.

It's a shame means it's a pity....now, to u, that's an insult?

Oya, let me ask this, in matt 23v23, what were the weightier matters of d LAW Jesus spoke about..cn u kindly list them here? Thank you

Judgement, Mercy and Faith.

How does this answer my question to you? How does this relate to the law being subdivided into ceremonial, civil, moral, scribal and ethical? Those are still my questions to you?

DrummaBoy:

And I can see that you are just warming up. Make I discharge and come back and watch you do your thing soon enough...

I always knew you're always in the Spirit, knowing what is happening. I dey gather momentum for the teachers of law plus grace, because whatever they can't achieve under grace, they rum to the law.

I wan scatter ground for this thread, it's gonna be the best of Goshen360, I promise you. I have been holding and waiting for a time such as this because the Spirit has been holding me on teaching some things, but I think the time is now.

Just sit back, relax and participate. It's gonna be Apostolic dimension of Goshen360.

DrummaBoy:
I thank you for refering me to the above thread by an anti-tither. But I did not request for a thread, not even one by an anti-tither. I requested for a bible verse that divides the laws God gave Moses into civil, ceremonial, moral, ethical or scribal; or any verse at all in the whole of the bible that divides those laws into any two or more distinctions. What I read in the NT is that the law of Moses is seen as one entity called LAW.
On a final note here, I am not lawless. The teachings of Jesus and the letters of Paul provide ample substances for the way and manner a Christian must conduct himself. Example Ephesian 4-6; Colosians 3. These admonitions are the way of life God will direct the believer in Christ in the New Testament church to live out. This laws or way of life are in accordance with the summary law of God which is to LOVE.

I think both of you are talking past each other. The Bible contains laws in the OT and these laws can be categorized into moral, civil, ceremonial, etc. The Bible does not have to say that for anybody to know it. It's like somebody saying that Noah's ark contained carnivores, herbivores and omnivores and you're asking for where the Bible says that. All you need are the characteristics of each category of animals and compare them to the animals in the ark. Or it is like taking all the laws passed by the National Assembly on such things as allowing people to vote at Age 16, protecting the elderly from scammers, granting protections to the disabled, etc. Anybody with knowledge of the legal system can break these laws into such headings as Constitutional Law, Elder Law, Disability Law, Civil Rights, Criminal Law, etc. Because the legislature did not describe it as such does not mean we cannot. Unless, you're suggesting that al the laws in the OT are of the same character and have no distinguishing characteristics.

I think the larger point you're trying to make is that all the laws have been abolished regardless of whether they are ceremonial, civil, etc. But that's different from saying there were no distinctions in the laws.

I also think the point that the NT contains sufficient rules for the believer is a very solid point. That's what keeps on confusing me about this Law-Grace argument. The "new" teachers of grace spend their valuable time demonizing "the law" but when you ask them if they think rape, murder, stealing are wrong, they'd say yes. And then they launch into some mumbo jumbo about how people sin because of the law. Ok, so those that preach grace without law no longer sin? Somehow, their congregations are better behaved? Of course, anybody with a modicum of intellect knows that that's not even remotely true.

The OP struck the right balance, in my opinion, about Law and Grace. The law is not for the christian, as written. However, the principles behind some of the laws are still valid. That's why many of them are repeated in the NT. And that's why those that claim to preach grace-only never come out to endorse the moral activities, for example, that the law condemns. At the end of the day, much of this is much ado about nothing. Nobody can be justified by the law. And nobody can live a successful christian life who wallows in those activities called sinful. 1 Pet. 2:11.

DrummaBoy:

Judgement, Mercy and Faith.

How does this answer my question to you? How does this relate to the law being subdivided into ceremonial, civil, moral, scribal and ethical? Those are still my questions to you?

Thank you for answering....The Pharisees were very far from treating important duties with the same scrupulosity which they observed in little matters.

Christ particularizes these weighty duties: Judgment,(and) mercy, and faith. Three are named, in contrast to the petty observances mentioned in v23.

Christ seems to refer to the words of Micah 6:8, "What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? " (see also Hosea 12:6;Zechariah 7:9, 10). [size=16pt] Worthless are all outward observances when the moral precepts are neglected. [/size]

"Judgment" means acting equitably to one's neighbour, hurting nobody by word or deed; as inJeremiah 5:1 a man is sought "that exerciseth justice.'" Such impartiality is specially enjoined in the Law (Deuteronomy 16:19, etc.).

"Mercy," loving kindness in conduct, often taught in the Pentateuch, as in the case of the widow, the stranger, and the debtor, and very different from the feeling of those who "devour widows' houses."

"Faith" may mean fidelity to promises: "He that sweareth unto his neighbour and disappointeth him not, though it were to his own hindrance" (Psalm 15:4); but it is more probably taken as that belief in God without which it is not possible to please him, and which should underlie and influence all moral action (Hebrews 11:6). 

Sir, drummaby, are you saying that, faith, mercy and judgement are not ethical snd moral , laws? Like nlmediator pointed out (I strongly recommend you read his post very very slowly), you dont need an oracle to know that the laws of Moses were categorised. As uusual, u just shot ur foot....Again