Ihedinobi3:

Is that so?

Yes it is.

TheArranger:

What will it take to convince you that your god isn't real?

Please give an honest response

"Nothing" is most likely the answer

TheArranger:

What will it take to convince you that your god isn't real?

Please give an honest response

The absence of the Universe.

Martinez39:
Yes it is.

Uh huh. What else?

TheArranger:

What will it take to convince you that your god isn't real?

Please give an honest response

IAmSabrina:
"Nothing" is most likely the answer

Ihedinobi3:

The absence of the Universe.

A.k.A Nothing

IAmSabrina was right. And here you are calling people dogmatic.....

IAmSabrina:

Ok

(Ok) = (I just can't read this long write up of Ihedinobi3 ).

TheArranger:



A.k.A Nothing

IAmSabrina was right. And here you are calling people dogmatic.....

I was only telling those who were calling others dogmatic that they were just as dogmatic. I have not only not claimed or pretended to not be dogmatic, I have in fact implied that if one comes to know the Truth, they get pretty "dogmatic" about it. I am probably more convinced about the Bible's reliability than any atheist is about the non-existence of God. That is something that should be rather obvious.

But you atheists are terribly dishonest about all sorts of things, not least about how dogmatic you are in your belief that there is no God.

Ihedinobi3:

Uh huh. What else?

Nothing else. Were you expecting anything else? You asked a question and I gave you a complete answer, so what do you mean by what else?

Carty your brain wherever you go.

Martinez39:
(Ok) = (I just can't read this long write up of Ihedinobi3 ).

To be honest, i actually didn't read it. I had started but then i scrolled down and it seemed there was no end in sight.....

No offence to Ihedinobi3 but at least if we're going to have a discussion on this topic (a topic i'm already worn out on by the way), at least shorten it to 3-4 brief paragraphs to kickstart

IAmSabrina:

To be honest, i actually didn't read it. I had started but then i scrolled down and it seemed there was no end in sight.....

No offence to Ihedinobi3 but at least if we're going to have a discussion on this topic (a topic i'm already worn out on by the way), at least shorten it to 3-4 brief paragraphs to kickstart

I wouldn't have read it as well.

Ihedinobi3:

I was only telling those who were calling others dogmatic that they were just as dogmatic.

I wouldn't call the likes of IAmSabrina, Martinez39 and most Nairaland atheists dogmatic. Harsh on theists, yes. But definitely not dogmatic. They make very good points in their arguments and offer sensible rebuttals in their posts. If one has a good response to your argument, it doesn't translate to dogma. I think that word "dogma" is overrated and misused a lot of times.

Ihedinobi3:

I have not only not claimed or pretended to not be dogmatic, I have in fact implied that if one comes to know the Truth, they get pretty "dogmatic" about it.

What "Truth". What is so special about this "Truth"? I want to know this 'Truth'

Ihedinobi3:

I am probably more convinced about the Bible's reliability than any atheist is about the non-existence of God. That is something that should be rather obvious.

I don't doubt that. Then again, with the exception of Strong Atheists, atheists are not fully convinced in the non-existence of God

Ihedinobi3:

But you atheists are terribly dishonest about all sorts of things, not least about how dogmatic you are in your belief that there is no God.

Everyone is dishonest. I could start a list of all the dishonest christians i've seen on Nairaland. I only joined this year and i've seen lots. Dishonesty is a human trait. It has nothing to do with Atheism.

TheArranger:

I wouldn't call the likes of IAmSabrina, Martinez39 and most Nairaland atheists dogmatic. Harsh on theists, yes. But definitely not dogmatic. They make very good points in their arguments and offer sensible rebuttals in their posts. If one has a good response to your argument, it doesn't translate to dogma. I think that word "dogma" is overrated and misused a lot of times.


What "Truth". What is so special about this "Truth"? I want to know this 'Truth'


I don't doubt that. Then again, with the exception of Strong Atheists, atheists are not fully convinced in the non-existence of God


Everyone is dishonest. I could start a list of all the dishonest christians i've seen on Nairaland. I only joined this year and i've seen lots. Dishonesty is a human trait. It has nothing to do with Atheism.

Okay, this is a funny post. Did you really think your eulogy of these fellow atheists of yours would impress me? Or was that a solidarity stunt pulled using my post as an excuse? I am not impressed at all, amused yes, but definitely not impressed. The entire pack of you are dogmatic about your atheism, about as fanatic about it as nearly any fanatic I have ever seen.

I am pretty sure you know the Bible, TheArranger. That is where that Truth is.

I have been debating atheists for at least seven years now. There is not a single one who pretends for long that they are not sure that God doesn't exist once the debate gets going.

Atheism is by definition a dishonest philosophy. Atheists are by default dishonest people.

Ihedinobi3:

Okay, this is a funny post. Did you really think your eulogy of these fellow atheists of yours would impress me? Or was that a solidarity stunt pulled using my post as an excuse? I am not impressed at all, amused yes, but definitely not impressed. The entire pack of you are dogmatic about your atheism, about as fanatic about it as nearly any fanatic I have ever seen.

I am pretty sure you know the Bible, TheArranger. That is where that Truth is.

I have been debating atheists for at least seven years now. There is not a single one who pretends for long that they are not sure that God doesn't exist once the debate gets going.

Atheism is by definition a dishonest philosophy. Atheists are by default dishonest people.

Ad hominems, strawmen, generalization fallacies & unexplained saltiness etc are riddled all over your post. I don't know which atheist in particular upset you but your pain is very evident.
The sad part is you won't see it now. And you'll probably never get to see how intolerant and prejudiced you actually are towards atheists. Rant all you want but your hate for atheism is unjustified. Hell, i'm not even this bitter at religion and i have infinitisemal reasons to be.
I was hoping for an cool calm argument but here you are just spitting into the wind. I'm sorry for bothering you. Let me now swerve out of your way before i get caught in your rain of spittle.
Good night and sleep tight

TheArranger:

Ad hominems, strawmen, generalization fallacies & unexplained saltiness etc are riddled all over your post. I don't know which atheist in particular upset you but your pain is very evident.
The sad part is you won't see it now. And you'll probably never get to see how intolerant and prejudiced you actually are towards atheists. Rant all you want but your hate for atheism is unjustified. Hell, i'm not even this bitter at religion and i have infinitisemal reasons to be.
I was hoping for an cool calm argument but here you are just spitting into the wind. I'm sorry for bothering you. Let me now swerve out of your way before i get caught in your rain of spittle.
Good night and sleep tight

I was really just playing with you. Sometimes I do that.

I don't hate atheists. I'm not intolerant or prejudiced toward atheists. I just don't believe that any of you is honest. That is my observation. Atheism as a philosophy denies the obvious. Atheists, as proponents of that philosophy are incredibly creative in their denials of the obvious. That is just plain truth. I don't expect any atheist to agree with that assessment any more than any atheist would be sane to expect me to agree with the idea that God does not exist. But I certainly believe it to be true. Doesn't make me hate atheists. It certainly does not make me enthusiastic about friendship - or any relationship, in fact - with an atheist, but I certainly don't hate you.

But consider the very deliberate attacks on Christianity that you lot make all the time. Consider the very deliberate attacks that you lot make on Christians themselves all the time. This very thread is yet another bait thread aimed at Christians. A parody of the Lord's Prayer made for a laugh at Christians. One Christian responds to ask for a little more respect for other people's beliefs, and a bunch of atheists jump his bones, just like wolves hunting sheep. And I'm the intolerant one? What about the slew of threads that you yourself have made today mocking Christianity in one way or another? How many threads have I made about atheism? How often do I jump atheists the way you guys jump Christians everywhere you find them?

Seriously, I think you are looking at things upside down. In fact, I know that you are.

Let me put it this way: I don't much care about atheists or atheism one way or another. Today is one of those days when I just play around with you. Otherwise, I typically don't care what you do. You make a parody of the Lord's Prayer? So what? You make a mockery of Bible passages? So what? You ridicule Christians for what they believe? Right, what else is new? These things are not very interesting to me...until I have nothing else to do, then I might play your game a little. When I do, I'm suddenly the big bad intolerant wolf who hates atheists. Get a mirror.

About your hope for a debate, I have offered you several in the past, what did you offer for one here? Not a single meaningful question, not one thesis of any kind. What debate were you hoping to have? I developed, rather painstakingly and at the cost of time, energy, and a phone battery, a comprehensive response to a comment here that you could have done something with. Did you? In fact, you did not. What you actually did was attempt to accuse me of dogmatism and now of "ad hominems, strawmen, generalization fallacies & unexplained saltiness etc." Really unimpressive, I promise you.

Now, if you want to discuss anything about the Christian Faith, name it, and see if I won't indulge you.

Ihedinobi3:

Have you ever heard of a parody?

Sure

I was expecting this. I knew my post will draw this kind of response. Now i'm going to address honestly to the best of my ability. I'm actually a young student and if you follow my posts & threads, you'll see that i'm a "baby atheist" . So correct & reprimand me anywhere i falter, i won't take offence.

Ihedinobi3:

I was really just playing with you. Sometimes I do that.

Its ok. No problem.

Ihedinobi3:

That is my observation. Atheism as a philosophy denies the obvious. Atheists, as proponents of that philosophy are incredibly creative in their denials of the obvious.

I'm pretty sure this statement "Atheism as a philosophy denies the obvious" is fallacious. No matter how absurd it sounds, the truth is there are people who genuinely don't see any reasons to believe in this God & have never believed since they were young. If i may ask, what is obvious? That a god exists or that a god exists and his name is Jehovah?

Ihedinobi3:

But consider the very deliberate attacks on Christianity that you lot make all the time. Consider the very deliberate attacks that you lot make on Christians themselves all the time. This very thread is yet another bait thread aimed at Christians. A parody of the Lord's Prayer made for a laugh at Christians. One Christian responds to ask for a little more respect for other people's beliefs, and a bunch of atheists jump his bones, just like wolves hunting sheep. And I'm the intolerant one? What about the slew of threads that you yourself have made today mocking Christianity in one way or another? How many threads have I made about atheism? How often do I jump atheists the way you guys jump Christians everywhere you find them?

Do you remember Butterfly lion, felix omor, anas, ishi love, & the other pack of christians that used to gang up & to insult, lay curses, shame and troll atheists on this forum around this time last year? I know you do. (I may have registered recently but i've been using Nairaland for a long time as a guest so i still remember). What do you think about these people? Like i said, dishonesty & hostility is a trait found in every person. Butter fly lion used to insult atheists and ridicule them terribly even when they tried presenting their arguments in a thought out manner. So don't act like Atheists are the wolves and christians are the sheep. Depending on the setting, anybody can be the wolf and anybody the sheep. And yes i take shots at christians, i take jabs at them. But they do it to us too. I believe you've seen memes mocking atheism all over the internet. Its a two way street. Maybe its because i'm an atheist but i don't see why religions like Islam & Christianity should be immune from ridicule like most moral or political philosophies.

Ihedinobi3:

Now, if you want to discuss anything about the Christian Faith, name it, and see if I won't indulge you.

Glad you asked. Now all i want is evidence. That's really just it. I just need objective evidence that this god, not just any god, but Jehovah, is real. Or is this too much to ask from you people? You said nothing will make you stop believing in god, right? Well, evidence will make abandon my atheism...

IAmSabrina

Martinez39

LordReed

TheArranger:
I was expecting this. I knew my post will draw this kind of response. Now i'm going to address honestly to the best of my ability. I'm actually a young student and if you follow my posts & threads, you'll see that i'm a "baby atheist" . So correct & reprimand me anywhere i falter, i won't take offence.

Its ok. No problem.


I'm pretty sure this statement "Atheism as a philosophy denies the obvious" is fallacious. No matter how absurd it sounds, the truth is there are people who genuinely don't see any reasons to believe in this God & have never believed since they were young. If i may ask, what is obvious? That a god exists or that a god exists and his name is Jehovah?


Do you remember Butterfly lion, felix omor, anas, ishi love, & the other pack of christians that used to gang up & to insult, lay curses, shame and troll atheists on this forum around this time last year? I know you do. (I may have registered recently but i've been using Nairaland for a long time as a guest so i still remember). What do you think about these people? Like i said, dishonesty & hostility is a trait found in every person. Butter fly lion used to insult atheists and ridicule them terribly even when they tried presenting their arguments in a thought out manner. So don't act like Atheists are the wolves and christians are the sheep. Depending on the setting, anybody can be the wolf and anybody the sheep. And yes i take shots at christians, i take jabs at them. But they do it to us too. I believe you've seen memes mocking atheism all over the internet. Its a two way street. Maybe its because i'm an atheist but i don't see why religions like Islam & Christianity should be immune from ridicule like most moral or political philosophies.


Glad you asked. Now all i want is evidence. That's really just it. I just need objective evidence that this god, not just any god, but Jehovah, is real. Or is this too much to ask from you people? You said nothing will make you stop believing in god, right? Well, evidence will make abandon my atheism...

IAmSabrina

Martinez39

LordReed

Don't let Ihedinobi intimidate you. That's his M.O. He's like that friend that calls you out & mocks you for having an untidy apartment when his hasn't been dusted, swept, mopped etc for weeks....

I love the observation @bolded. Atheists are just as victimized even more so than Christians but you hardly see us crying about it. They don't realize how privileged they are

LordReed:


You, my dear buda, are a whetstone; I appreciate you.

Appreciate you too my Lord.

I found you better evidence. It's hidden in here somewhere.

Michellekabod1:

Sure

The Atheist's Prayer is a parody.

Ihedinobi3:

But you atheists are terribly dishonest about all sorts of things, not least about how dogmatic you are in your belief that there is no God.

You are one of the most dishonest people on here. You who will accuse someone of something which is an out right lie. You lie alot when you see arguments turn against you. You make a lot of false equivalences when you have no reasonable counter to someone. You do these things over and over again such that even if a baby born yesterday encounters you, they will immediately know you for the liar you are.

LordReed:
You are one of the most dishonest people on here. You who will accuse someone of something which is an out right lie. You lie alot when you see arguments turn against you. You make a lot of false equivalences when you have no reasonable counter to someone. You do these things over and over again such that even if a baby born yesterday encounters you, they will immediately know you for the liar you are.

I was starting to think i'm the only one who sees Ihedinobi like this...

TheArranger:
I was expecting this. I knew my post will draw this kind of response. Now i'm going to address honestly to the best of my ability. I'm actually a young student and if you follow my posts & threads, you'll see that i'm a "baby atheist" . So correct & reprimand me anywhere i falter, i won't take offence.

Its ok. No problem.


I'm pretty sure this statement "Atheism as a philosophy denies the obvious" is fallacious. No matter how absurd it sounds, the truth is there are people who genuinely don't see any reasons to believe in this God & have never believed since they were young. If i may ask, what is obvious? That a god exists or that a god exists and his name is Jehovah?


Do you remember Butterfly lion, felix omor, anas, ishi love, & the other pack of christians that used to gang up & to insult, lay curses, shame and troll atheists on this forum around this time last year? I know you do. (I may have registered recently but i've been using Nairaland for a long time as a guest so i still remember). What do you think about these people? Like i said, dishonesty & hostility is a trait found in every person. Butter fly lion used to insult atheists and ridicule them terribly even when they tried presenting their arguments in a thought out manner. So don't act like Atheists are the wolves and christians are the sheep. Depending on the setting, anybody can be the wolf and anybody the sheep. And yes i take shots at christians, i take jabs at them. But they do it to us too. I believe you've seen memes mocking atheism all over the internet. Its a two way street. Maybe its because i'm an atheist but i don't see why religions like Islam & Christianity should be immune from ridicule like most moral or political philosophies.


Glad you asked. Now all i want is evidence. That's really just it. I just need objective evidence that this god, not just any god, but Jehovah, is real. Or is this too much to ask from you people? You said nothing will make you stop believing in god, right? Well, evidence will make abandon my atheism...

IAmSabrina

Martinez39

LordReed

Maybe your being a baby atheist is why I was about as hopeful about you as I once was about IAmSabrina (not very hopeful, I'll admit). When you folks get "smart" for the first time, you really show it. You carry the absurdities and inanities of atheism like it is the Grail, starting wars over it, and attacking every imagined enemy over it. But you also are more honest as a new atheist than the jaded atheists who have seen the glaring lies in atheism but who decide to pretend that they don't matter. Those more experienced, "adult" atheists debate for the sole purpose of throwing sand in the eyes of their opponents. They know that they are in a lie, but they don't care, and they only want to swell the number of people in lies too so that they feel more comfortable in the large numbers of their fellow rebels against God. Of course, numbers really mean almost nothing in this business, but when you start lying, it soon gets away from you: you end up in a mass of lies so intricately woven and packed that it's just easier to add more lies than to get out.

When I first noticed you, you had the typical objections, but you also seemed able to self-criticize, even if only to a small degree. When I tested you, however, you started to slink deeper into the dark. That was the various opportunities I gave you for debate. You wouldn't ever engage beyond one or two defenses for your positions. That is a critical symptom that tells me that someone is maturing in atheism. When they start finding it easier to attack and defend against the many weak Christians that fill boards like this one, they begin to have a sense of confirmation and justification in their atheism that is only threatened by Christians who actually understand and believe the Bible. Taking that path of less resistance is a sign that the atheist is less and less willing to look at their atheism honestly.

So, while I wish I could believe that you are still a baby atheist, I confess that I'm a little too jaded now myself to do so.

As for expecting my response, excellent instincts.

As for the following,

'No matter how absurd it sounds, the truth is there are people who genuinely don't see any reasons to believe in this God & have never believed since they were young,'

I'm afraid I don't believe you at all. I have never debated an atheist who "genuinely [didn't] see any reasons to believe in this God." I have debated many, on the other hand, who won't accept the reasons as being compelling enough because they believe that there are too many options. The easiest consideration here is existence itself. This is the reason in fact to believe that some God exists. The universe is obviously not self-existing. Therefore, it must have a non-material and eternal Maker. That is pretty straightforward. But no atheist who is determined to be an atheist can accept straightforward arguments of this sort, so all manner of excuses are thrown up to reject it.

This too is why I don't believe that anyone has ever existed or exists or will ever exist who has never believed in this God. You see, God is a fundamental assumption of life. We all come into this world taking for granted that a God exists Who made it and to Whom we are responsible. But that is a changeable mindset, and not many people retain such an attitude even into late childhood, much less adulthood. Human beings, by nature, want an excuse to be irresponsible. Pretending that God does not exist or that He is different than He is allows us to act in the specific irresponsible manner that we prefer. Therefore, not long after birth, we start trying to escape the awareness of not only God's Existence, but also His Nature.

As for the matter of hostility, atheism and Christianity as concepts and philosophies are the issue, not the behavior of the adherents and proponents of either. An atheist who believes in objective morality betrays the atheistic philosophy. A Christian who acts in hostility in response to persecution betrays Christ. These are failures as defined by the objective definitions of the philosophies in question.

So, it is to be expected that atheists make a point of mocking, deriding, and harming Christians for their faith in Christ. But it is not to be expected that Christians make a point of doing the same. When Christians do it whether in response or unprovoked, they are wrong and failures at the test of their faith in that specific moment.

Again, considering that this is only what you noticed last year, you probably haven't been on this platform as long as at least one of the people you accused whom I met on here in 2012. Many Christians encounter atheists and atheism for the first time on public fora. That often confuses them, but even worse it puts them on the defensive once atheists start to mock them. That is how I expect these unending cycles to start: naïve Christian shows up on platform; atheists mock his faith and himself; he fights back; new atheist shows up mocking in general; naïve Christian targets him too; atheist fights back; rinse and repeat.

As I said, atheists, by default, will mock, deride, and persecute Christians, and the weak naïve ones among us will foolishly fight back. So, yes, you are the wolves, not us. Those of us who fight back are failures among us. We all fail occasionally, however, so any Christian might stumble and fight back when they shouldn't. But that is still a failure. It is not representative of Christianity at all.

As for your demand, I don't believe I have any responsibility to give you any evidence. I have not asked you to believe the Bible. As much as I would be happy to help you escape eternal condemnation, it really isn't my business whether you believe in Jesus Christ or not. The work of evangelism is always to provide the Gospel to those who want it. I am more than happy to give you the Gospel if you want to hear it. I am not at all interested in indulging any atheistic flights of fancy you have. If the world around you, your own self, and the undeniable reality of Death are not enough to convince you not only that a God exists but that He is manifest in Jesus Christ about Whom the Bible speaks on every page, then it would be a colossal waste of my time and energy to attempt to give you any other evidence. I couldn't be bothered if you think that that is not evidence - whether good evidence or bad. I know that we all decide what we want to believe, so I cannot make you see what is right in front of you, if you don't want to see it.

Compare that to your complete inability to sway my confidence not only in the existence of God, but also in His Identity as Jesus Christ Who also became Man to die spiritually on the Cross of Calvary so that our sins against God will be fully paid for, and we can live forever with Him in perfect eternal bliss as His eternal Children. You have absolutely no chance of convincing me that that is not true. If it is a delusion, then it is one I have no hope of escaping. This is why I am uninterested in saving atheists. To go from unbeliever to atheist is a radical choice to prefer insanity to reality. Only the atheist himself can change that choice. Whenever he decides to, that is when a Christian can help him by giving him the Gospel, because he might then be willing to listen to it.

So, I cannot help you better than your own eyes and your own heart can. If these have turned against you, what can I do?

IAmSabrina:

I was starting to think i'm the only one who sees Ihedinobi like this...

You are not, almost everyone who has had a significant interaction with him makes the same observation.

Ihedinobi3:

I'm afraid I don't believe you at all. I have never debated an atheist who "genuinely [didn't] see any reasons to believe in this God."

Cc. Budaatum

IAmSabrina:

Don't let Ihedinobi intimidate you. That's his M.O. He's like that friend that calls you out & mocks you for having an untidy apartment when his hasn't been dusted, swept, mopped etc for weeks....

I love the observation @bolded. Atheists are just as victimized even more so than Christians but you hardly see us crying about it. They don't realize how privileged they are

Making things up again, are we?

LordReed:
You are one of the most dishonest people on here. You who will accuse someone of something which is an out right lie. You lie alot when you see arguments turn against you. You make a lot of false equivalences when you have no reasonable counter to someone. You do these things over and over again such that even if a baby born yesterday encounters you, they will immediately know you for the liar you are.

Making things up again, aren't you?

IAmSabrina:

I was starting to think i'm the only one who sees Ihedinobi like this...

You still are. What's the difference between one atheist and another when they are both looking at the Truth? None at all.

Ihedinobi3:

Making things up again, aren't you?

Are you confused? I am not you.

LordReed:


Are you confused? I am not you.

You most definitely aren't. I'm not the one who tells bald-faced lies, am I?

Ihedinobi3:

Maybe your being a baby atheist is why I was about as hopeful about you as I once was about IAmSabrina (not very hopeful, I'll admit). When you folks get "smart" for the first time, you really show it. You carry the absurdities and inanities of atheism like it is the Grail, starting wars over it, and attacking every imagined enemy over it. But you also are more honest as a new atheist than the jaded atheists who have seen the glaring lies in atheism but who decide to pretend that they don't matter. Those more experienced, "adult" atheists debate for the sole purpose of throwing sand in the eyes of their opponents. They know that they are in a lie, but they don't care, and they only want to swell the number of people in lies too so that they feel more comfortable in the large numbers of their fellow rebels against God. Of course, numbers really mean almost nothing in this business, but when you start lying, it soon gets away from you: you end up in a mass of lies so intricately woven and packed that it's just easier to add more lies than to get out.

I'm sorry but i still don't see the "absurdities and inanities" of atheism you're talking about. You can claim overlapping meanings from now till we die, but lack of belief can never mean the same as a belief. Personally, i'm ok with Pantheism (the philosophy that God is the universe as it is. I'm even content with Deism (a philosophy that proposes a supernatural being who after creating the universe, no longer indulges himself in the affairs of the universe). The subject that attracts attention the most and for good sensible reasons is Theism (the philosophy that God created the universe and still involves himself in the affairs of the universe, created two alternate dimensions for the punishment & reward of humans, has an archnemesis etc). There is evidence that suggests that the universe wasn't even designed with human life in mind. This could agree with atheism, pantheism and even deism, but not theism. Haven't you wondered: why A-theism? why not A-deism?

I mean forgive me but you have to admit, theism is the most far fetched philosophy of all, it makes sense for it to be heavily criticized as it is. I'm going to guess you've been a christian all your life, right? Me, i've been a christian, then a deist and now i'm atheist. I've worn all shoes so i know where they all pinch. I think you need to wear an atheist's shoes for once. Don't derive your opinions of atheism from human behaviour alone. I'm pretty sure that's fallacious. Fault them all you want but the likes of Sabrina, Johnydon, LordReed, Martinez, CAPSLOCKED etc are some of the most enlightened atheists i've encountered on Nairaland and they've encouraged me to be more skeptical about my surroundings and not make assumptions and take things at face value.

Call it a eulogy like before but like i said, i like being honest and i'm not afraid or ashamed to express gratitude or distaste where necessary

Ihedinobi3:

When I first noticed you, you had the typical objections, but you also seemed able to self-criticize, even if only to a small degree. When I tested you, however, you started to slink deeper into the dark. That was the various opportunities I gave you for debate. You wouldn't ever engage beyond one or two defenses for your positions. That is a critical symptom that tells me that someone is maturing in atheism. When they start finding it easier to attack and defend against the many weak Christians that fill boards like this one, they begin to have a sense of confirmation and justification in their atheism that is only threatened by Christians who actually understand and believe the Bible. Taking that path of less resistance is a sign that the atheist is less and less willing to look at their atheism honestly.

Out of curiosity (cause i really couldnt remember this encounter you keep repeating we both had), i went over all my previous posts on this website till i eventually came accross it. That was my "Christians Of Nairaland, What If You're Wrong?" thread were i was kinda hoping that christians, like us atheists, would try testing the two lenses and see that there is wisdom in Atheism. I don't think too much was said in our conversation. I asked you for evidence and when you mentioned the Bible, i scoffed. That's pretty much where it ended. You never, even up till now, asked me why i rejected the Bible so i could give you my reasons.

I think you make hasty conclusions a lot. In a way, i can understand your bitterness with atheism, but i think your anger is misplaced. Your anger may not be with Atheism. It could be with the atheists you encounter on Nairaland, not the philosophy itself.

Ihedinobi3:

I'm afraid I don't believe you at all. I have never debated an atheist who "genuinely [didn't] see any reasons to believe in this God." I have debated many, on the other hand, who won't accept the reasons as being compelling enough because they believe that there are too many options. The easiest consideration here is existence itself. This is the reason in fact to believe that some God exists. The universe is obviously not self-existing. Therefore, it must have a non-material and eternal Maker. That is pretty straightforward. But no atheist who is determined to be an atheist can accept straightforward arguments of this sort, so all manner of excuses are thrown up to reject it.

I wouldn't just call them excuses. As attractive as Deism is (which is what the argument @red is for by the way, not Theism), i still argue that it is less logical than Atheism. The difference between the two philosophies is that one is making a claim and the other isn't. Obviously we know who the burden of proof rests on. "This god exists" is a naked claim until proven otherwise

Ihedinobi3:

This too is why I don't believe that anyone has ever existed or exists or will ever exist who has never believed in this God. You see, God is a fundamental assumption of life. We all come into this world taking for granted that a God exists Who made it and to Whom we are responsible. But that is a changeable mindset, and not many people retain such an attitude even into late childhood, much less adulthood. Human beings, by nature, want an excuse to be irresponsible. Pretending that God does not exist or that He is different than He is allows us to act in the specific irresponsible manner that we prefer. Therefore, not long after birth, we start trying to escape the awareness of not only God's Existence, but also His Nature.

"God is a fundamental assumption of life"

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head. God is nothing but an assumption. And the reason there's any assumption in the first place is because of two main reasons in my opinion
1. Our Ego
2. Our Ignorance

Our Ego: Human beings want to feel special, wanted, watched and observed. We like to believe our actions, our decisions count. We want justice (heaven) for do-gooders & punishment (hell) for people who wrong us. Because we assume there's a God monitoring you and me 24/7, we project our ego unto him.

Our Ignorance: Have you ever seen god? I can bet right now you haven't. God is always "beyond our understanding". If he is beyond our understanding, how do you christians understand him so well to know what he likes and what he does not like?

The less important we feel ourselves to be, the more this God can assert itself. In angst and powerlessness, people find comfort in a personal "realisation" that actually everything is ok, they are not worthless, because God cares for them. Some turn to God to fill a hole created in our heads by an impoverished ego, filling them with a sense of importance. This is not hard to deduce. And to prove it, sir, i want you to answer these questions please

1. Would you rather believe that your consciousness is merely the product of an uncaring random process, or to believe that your consciousness is a supernatural phenomenon akin to that of angels and gods?

2. Would you rather believe that as unimaginably gigantic the universe is, it has no aim or purpose, or to believe that a universe of 100 billion galaxies was created 14 billion years ago just so that you can grace it with your presence?

3. Would you rather believe that your mind will soon forever cease, or to believe that your mind is eternal?

Ihedinobi3:

As for the matter of hostility, atheism and Christianity as concepts and philosophies are the issue, not the behavior of the adherents and proponents of either.

Okay. I guess that's cleared up then.

Ihedinobi3:

So, it is to be expected that atheists make a point of mocking, deriding, and harming Christians for their faith in Christ. But it is not to be expected that Christians make a point of doing the same. When Christians do it whether in response or unprovoked, they are wrong and failures at the test of their faith in that specific moment.

Again, considering that this is only what you noticed last year, you probably haven't been on this platform as long as at least one of the people you accused whom I met on here in 2012. Many Christians encounter atheists and atheism for the first time on public fora. That often confuses them, but even worse it puts them on the defensive once atheists start to mock them. That is how I expect these unending cycles to start: naïve Christian shows up on platform; atheists mock his faith and himself; he fights back; new atheist shows up mocking in general; naïve Christian targets him too; atheist fights back; rinse and repeat.

As I said, atheists, by default, will mock, deride, and persecute Christians, and the weakness naïve ones among us will foolishly fight back. So, yes, you are the wolves, not us. Those of us who fight back are failures among us. We all fail occasionally, however, so any Christian might stumble and fight back when they shouldn't. But that is still a failure. It is not representative of Christianity at all.

I agree with most of this piece.

As for the clowning & mockery of christians. It is of course expected. Like i said, i do it too and as a matter of fact, i enjoy it so much. But your reaction to it all just proves that christians mostly take ridicule of their belief as an attack of their person rather than the belief itself. In a sense, i get why but in a sense i also don't. Then again, i'm an atheist and i don't hold Jehovah in as high a regard as you christians do.

Also, i think someone pointed that out, and i agree, that besides verbal mockery, religious people do have it easier than atheists in the society.

By far the easiest grounds for gaining conscientious objector status in wartime are religious. You can be a brilliant moral philosopher with a prizewinning doctoral thesis expounding the evils of war, and still be given a hard time by a draft board evaluating your claim to be a conscientious objector. Yet if you can say that one or both of your parents is a Quaker you sail through like a breeze, no matter how inarticulate and illiterate you may be on the theory of pacifism or, indeed, Quakerism itself.

I'm borrowing the following quote from the late Douglas Adams:
"Religion . . . has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call sacred or holy or whatever. What it means is, 'Here is an idea or a notion that you're not allowed to say anything bad about; you're just not. Why not? - because you're not!' If somebody votes for a party that you don't agree with, you're free to argue about it as much as you like; everybody will have an argument but nobody feels aggrieved by it. If somebody thinks taxes should go up or down you are free to have an argument about it. But on the other hand if somebody says 'I mustn't move a light switch on a Saturday', you say, 'I respect that'. Why should it be that it's perfectly legitimate to support the Labour party or the Conservative party, Republicans or Democrats, this model of economics versus that, Macintosh instead of Windows - but to have an opinion about how the Universe began, about who created the Universe . .. no, that's holy? . .. We are used to not challenging religious ideas but it's very interesting how much of a furore Richard creates when he does it! Everybody gets absolutely frantic about it because you're not allowed to say these things. Yet when you look at it rationally there is no reason why those ideas shouldn't be as open to debate as any other, except that we have agreed somehow between us that they shouldn't be."

Ihedinobi3:

As for your demand, I don't believe I have any responsibility to give you any evidence. I have not asked you to believe the Bible. As much as I would be happy to help you escape eternal condemnation, it really isn't my business whether you believe in Jesus Christ or not. The work of evangelism is always to provide the Gospel to those who want it. I am more than happy to give you the Gospel if you want to hear it. I am not at all interested in indulging any atheistic flights of fancy you have. If the world around you, your own self, and the undeniable reality of Death are not enough to convince you not only that a God exists but that He is manifest in Jesus Christ about Whom the Bible speaks on every page, then it would be a colossal waste of my time and energy to attempt to give you any other evidence. I couldn't be bothered if you think that that is not evidence - whether good evidence or bad. I know that we all decide what we want to believe, so I cannot make you see what is right in front of you, if you don't want to see it.

Ok. If you say so. Although, i'd have been very ready to abandon my position if you had provided sufficient evidence for your god. Correct me if i'm wrong, but you'd be "winning my soul" then.

I'm just a skeptic who's tired of listening to far-fetched stories from a book that is as flawed as the Bible.

Ihedinobi3:

Compare that to your complete inability to sway my confidence not only in the existence of God, but also in His Identity as Jesus Christ Who also became Man to die spiritually on the Cross of Calvary so that our sins against God will be fully paid for, and we can live forever with Him in perfect eternal bliss as His eternal Children. You have absolutely no chance of convincing me that that is not true. If it is a delusion, then it is one I have no hope of escaping. This is why I am uninterested in saving atheists. To go from unbeliever to atheist is a radical choice to prefer insanity to reality. Only the atheist himself can change that choice. Whenever he decides to, that is when a Christian can help him by giving him the Gospel, because he would then be willing to listen to it.

I'm not trying to sway you. Haven't we both established that your crew can never be swayed? I want YOU to sway ME. Unlike you, i can actually change my views on religion if you use the right tool: Evidence.

IAmSabrina

Martinez39

LordReed

CAPSLOCKED

Johnydon22

Ihedinobi3:

Making things up again, are we?

There's nothing to make up. Or do you want to pretend right now that Christians do not have a better status in the society than Atheists?

Ihedinobi3:

You still are. What's the difference between one atheist and another when they are both looking at the Truth? None at all.

I think you really need to learn the meaning of the word Truth...

IAmSabrina:

Cc. Budaatum

He never met atheist buda. I think he ran away from me! And he doesn't accept theist buda. But we working that out.

Edit!
Do note that my "Finally, you admit that the faith of the scientist is a different faith to that held by a believer, which is based on no evidence whatsoever", indicates I suffered from spiritual blindness.