ijawkid: Your point??

What did the rich man do that should make him burn for all eternity in hell fire.....??

Answer me...

I've read those verses and still can't pin point what the rich man did to roast in a fire.....

And it seems that from this parable(literally speaking) all poor persons and beggars will go to heaven....abi??

Mr_Anony:
This is the reason why I asked everyone to give their introduction so that it will be easy to go back and see exactly what each person's position is instead of merely generalizing based on what you think the person is saying.

I have not claimed that the parable should be taken literally but I have pointed out that clearly the conscious suffering of a sinner after death is a core point of Jesus' parables.

If you had bothered to read my argument through and through, you would have noticed that I do not necessarily hold that hell is a literal fire. What I do hold is that there is definitely eternal suffering for the sinner after death and Jesus pointed at this in his parables.

Mr_Anony:
Interestingly Fresky, you omitted a large part of Christ talking about a suffering after judgment. What you are proposing sounds like this: Man sins and dies, God resurrects him and says something along the lines of "you have been a very bad boy haven't you? Now go back to sleep".

Annihilation is not preached in the scripture. It is only something you have assumed. It is special pleading to say that though the bible says that the devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, that man thrown into the same lake of fire will somehow be exempt from the same punishment but will simply go into another long eternal sleep. This is false.

Just to be sure, so that the above isn't just a conclusion I am jumping to. Do you agree that the wicked will be resurrected for judgment as it says in Rev 20? or do you hold that they will never even rise at all?


The part you cited in the book of Psalms where the wicked will be cut off was referring to a physical death. How do I know? I read the whole Psalm and nothing about that verse seems to indicate an afterlife cutting off.


One more thing Fresky. please stick to KJV or RSV as we have agreed, NKJV is not one of the translations we agreed upon (yeah I know it is very similar to KJV and it is also my favoured translation but then an agreement is an agreement. Let's respect that).

Freksy:

Who are you trying to kid?

If truly you believe that Jesus' parable is figurative why then did you introduce it as follows:

"One may argue that the story is figurative but two things are quite certain from this parable"......by Mr Anony.

It's another way of saying: though others may claim Jesus' parable is figurative, but as for me, it's 100% literal.


Again, if you truly believe it is figurative why then do you frequently quote same to substantiate your teaching on a literally fiery Hell?

How would it sound if I claim that knife is not harmful but each time I talk about dangerous weapons I mention it as number one example? Is that not contradictory?

I am sure you are trying to avoid the questions that are associated with the literally meaning of the parable.

brainpulse:

Because you have seen yourself as to question God's judgement.

Was Christ capable of knowing what really happened after death? YES
Was He capable of knowing what happened doing the time of Moses? YES- because he knew what was going to happened to him even after His death.

CrazyMan:
Why can't you understand that passage.

It was a parable...it didn't actually happen. Jesus told that story for the purpose of giving; he wants us to have compassion on the poor.

frosbel:

Sir, the spirit is not yours , it is GOD's breath !!

When you die, God takes it back , period.

"then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." - Genesis 2:7

obadiah777: breathed into him is not a literal statement. spirits have been formed and created. they are standalone entities. breathe into his nostrils means he put his spirit into the being. each spirit is an entity. how you pay for your sins is that the spirit will be put in a new body and then tossed into the earth as a new born baby. then the new being formed but with the same spirit pays for the sin. no such thing as the spirit is a force or electricity from God. spirits are beings.

frosbel:

No.

It states clearly that the spirit or breath of GOD returns back to him.

ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: ר֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Short Definition: spirit

frosbel:

Wrong.

Angels are spirits, MAN is a mortal soul.

Show me in the bible where GOD says MAN is a spirit.

"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" - Psalm 104:4

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." - Genesis 6:3

obadiah777: you are not your body. your body is simply dust from the ground. you are your spirit. we are spiritual beings wearing a dust suit. the spirit is who you are.

frosbel: I have two questions for the house.


Is MAN an immortal soul ?

When MAN dies and his spirit returns to GOD as the wisest King on earth Solomon said, is there any other part of him that goes to somewhere unmentioned ?

obadiah777: man is an immortal soul. the body wears out and dies but the spirit lives forever. lets examine this verse

matthew 16 vs 28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." when was this statement made ? around 2000 years ago ? so are there 2000 year old men walking around today that we dont know about ? NO. what does that tell you ? that verse tells you that the spirit is what makes the man and not the body. some of those spirits in those men standing there with Christ will not die spiritually because they were part of the 144,000 sealed whose spirits reside in the lord forever and will keep on being alive and residing with the lord till Christ comes. what does that tell you again ? you are your spirit not your body. your spirit has a personality that it expresses through your body. your spirit is not an electricity used to jump start a flesh as Truthislight and Frosbel have said. thats just a ludicrous and preposterous assertion

frosbel:

Man is not an immortal soul , there is nowhere in scripture were this is presented as TRUTH.

Please show me these areas of scripture that support your theology.

obadiah777: daniel 7 vs 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER ?

frosbel:

after they are granted immortality.

" For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." - Matthew 22:30

obadiah777: THATS A PARABLE. and what the parable is trying to say is that when christ is on earth, no one will be married to their idols anymore. this is another reincarnation verse which further proves the point that spirits are forever. spirits dont get destroyed. souls are immortal

Mr_Anony:
I know you probably don't mean it that way but then if scripture becomes self-refuting, it breaks down.

frosbel:

you lost me

Ihedinobi:

The antecedents of truthislight's crew is completely in agreement with what he said: they use Scriptures to refute Scriptures. He may have not meant to say that, or he may have but it is in fact what they do and why I do not hide the fact that I cannot tolerate their arguments. My first experience of such foolishness was with frosbel who would throw Scriptures at you when you questioned any position he held that appeared to contradict a particular Scripture. I warned him then that it is antichrist to pit Scriptures against themselves. Then I saw the liberality with which truthislight dispensed such wickedness.

God2man: What is the meaning of the word "parable"?
Cambridge international dictionary of English: A short simple story which teaches or explains an idea, especially a moral or religious idea.

There are 70 parables in the new testament alone. Jesus used parable to make people understand his teachings. He used it as an illustration, a proverb, or figurativelly.

Now, out of all the 70 parables in the new testament, no name was mentioned, i repeat, no name was mentioned. Looking at Luke 16: 19-31, names were mentioned
1. Abraham ( a real man in the old testament, not an illustration or a figure)
2. Lazarus. ( an unknown man) but he actually existed accrording to the first statement Jesus made, THERE WAS A CERTAIN RICH MAN,(no name), but look closely at the word "CERTAIN" Which is also applicable to other parables for example Luke 16:1-13, THERE WAS A CERTAIN RICH MAN(no name) again. We all know that this is the parable of an unjust steward.

I am concern about Luke 16:19 - 31. My people, THIS IS NOT A PARABLE. It actually happened. Why? Names were mentioned and also the word "certain" is a very powerful word in the context.


My conclusion is that the story of Abraham, the unknown rich man, and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, is a literal one, and NOT A PARABLE,Christ never used lies to convey his teachings.
People may not believe that hell is real because Jesus had already predicted it, see:

" And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they(doubters) be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" Luke 16:31

God bless you.
God2man.

Ihedinobi:

Twin bro, I get this tendency to civility, but I would rather you do not condone evil especially when it is evident in them who claim Christ. It will probably portray you as intolerant but it does pay to be on the Lord's side regardless who is on the other.

The antecedents of truthislight's crew is completely in agreement with what he said: they use Scriptures to refute Scriptures. He may have not meant to say that, or he may have but it is in fact what they do and why I do not hide the fact that I cannot tolerate their arguments. My first experience of such foolishness was with frosbel who would throw Scriptures at you when you questioned any position he held that appeared to contradict a particular Scripture. I warned him then that it is antichrist to pit Scriptures against themselves. Then I saw the liberality with which truthislight dispensed such wickedness.

True, there is a great deal that we do not know, especially what goes on in the heart of a man. But we may see what a man does and deal with him accordingly. These "brethren" hold no respect for the Bible and probably never will. Do not ever excuse them, I beg you, that you may not be taken in their snare. If they change, we will rejoice in the blessing of added brethren. But until they do, I beg you, cease from reckoning with them as brethren. It will only have you standing contrary to Christ in the most subtle ways.

ijawkid:


Now what in the world do you think you are saying??

2 Thessalonians 1 vv 5-10 RSV:
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering - since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Revelation 14:9-11 RSV:
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also shall drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and THEY HAVE NO REST, day or night, these worshippers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Ihedinobi: I really cannot add much to Lord Reed's, Image123's, Reyginius's and Mr Anony's intro, to mention the few believers I remember here represented. They fully capture my stand on the matter at hand. However, I will point out the following.


§§ God is utterly just.

§§ God is utterly merciful.

§§ When God saves, He saves to the uttermost.

§§ When God destroys, He destroys utterly.

§§ When God's Mercy has been rejected, only His Wrath can be had and it will be had without respite.

§§ God is no respecter of persons.


What I think about hellfire or the lake of fire or the Second Death is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 which in the RSV reads thus



And because of the tendency to read termination into the word, "destruction", which tendency should normally be checked by the words, "vengeance", "affliction", and "exclusion", I proceed to point out the following verse in the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to John also reading from the RSV



Already, I am fully aware of the arguments that may be raised against the passage in Revelation, but the thing that I think does clinch the discussion is the nature and purpose of man. It is easy to forget that sin or corruption or that departure from the correct and the normal is the aberration, not the normal. Man is first a man, before he is a sinner. What a sinner is is essentially a corruption of the entity called man. Therefore, if man is to be correctly analysed, sin must be put in its correct place: that of an aberration.

Having said so, I think it necessary to address the nature of man. What is man? The clearest statement in the Scriptures about man is that in Genesis 1:27 viz "in the image of God he created him". Man is that which was created to be like God. In other words, Man is what God would be if God were a creature. Sin is a corruption of the Reality called Man.

Man as Man, I declare, was built to last. Why? Because he was created for dominion. He was created to be God's means of government over His whole creation. What we see in the beginning of Genesis is Man in potential, what follows is Man failing to reach full potential and essentially losing character. What we find finally in Revelation is Man, not only restored but in full actualization of his potentials. I have said this to point out that even though God knew that the entity called Man would be corrupted and therefore prepared beforehand to correct the anomaly when it happened, He still created Man to be Man.

Man is, in a sense, eternal. The sense in which I mean is that he was a thought from eternity, an actuality in time and a perpetuation in eternity. He will continue to exist because he was made to. Sin only redirects his existence, it does not "delete" it. This is why the Salvation offered in Jesus Christ is such a big deal in the first instance. Man will go on either in actualizing all that he was created for or in failing utterly of it all, either way, he will continue to exist.

Physical Death is a condition that exists, just like time, to correct the issue of Sin. Without it, the corruption reigns unchecked. Consider Jeremiah 18:1-17 especially verse 4 as an illustration of this point. If within the time frame alloted a given individual is reclaimed, wonderful, if not, too bad. But the Spirit of the Lord will not strive with flesh forever. At a point, the man must be left to his fate. Said condition exists to truncate this strife for the stiff-necked and to reap the harvest of fruitful work.

TBC

Ihedinobi: I really cannot add much to Lord Reed's, Image123's, Reyginius's and Mr Anony's intro, to mention the few believers I remember here represented. They fully capture my stand on the matter at hand. However, I will point out the following.


§§ God is utterly just.

§§ God is utterly merciful.

§§ When God saves, He saves to the uttermost.

§§ When God destroys, He destroys utterly.

§§ When God's Mercy has been rejected, only His Wrath can be had and it will be had without respite.

§§ God is no respecter of persons.


What I think about hellfire or the lake of fire or the Second Death is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 which in the RSV reads thus



And because of the tendency to read termination into the word, "destruction", which tendency should normally be checked by the words, "vengeance", "affliction", and "exclusion", I proceed to point out the following verse in the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to John also reading from the RSV



Already, I am fully aware of the arguments that may be raised against the passage in Revelation, but the thing that I think does clinch the discussion is the nature and purpose of man. It is easy to forget that sin or corruption or that departure from the correct and the normal is the aberration, not the normal. Man is first a man, before he is a sinner. What a sinner is is essentially a corruption of the entity called man. Therefore, if man is to be correctly analysed, sin must be put in its correct place: that of an aberration.

Having said so, I think it necessary to address the nature of man. What is man? The clearest statement in the Scriptures about man is that in Genesis 1:27 viz "in the image of God he created him". Man is that which was created to be like God. In other words, Man is what God would be if God were a creature. Sin is a corruption of the Reality called Man.

Man as Man, I declare, was built to last. Why? Because he was created for dominion. He was created to be God's means of government over His whole creation. What we see in the beginning of Genesis is Man in potential, what follows is Man failing to reach full potential and essentially losing character. What we find finally in Revelation is Man, not only restored but in full actualization of his potentials. I have said this to point out that even though God knew that the entity called Man would be corrupted and therefore prepared beforehand to correct the anomaly when it happened, He still created Man to be Man.

Man is, in a sense, eternal. The sense in which I mean is that he was a thought from eternity, an actuality in time and a perpetuation in eternity. He will continue to exist because he was made to. Sin only redirects his existence, it does not "delete" it. This is why the Salvation offered in Jesus Christ is such a big deal in the first instance. Man will go on either in actualizing all that he was created for or in failing utterly of it all, either way, he will continue to exist.

Physical Death is a condition that exists, just like time, to correct the issue of Sin. Without it, the corruption reigns unchecked. Consider Jeremiah 18:1-17 especially verse 4 as an illustration of this point. If within the time frame alloted a given individual is reclaimed, wonderful, if not, too bad. But the Spirit of the Lord will not strive with flesh forever. At a point, the man must be left to his fate. Said condition exists to truncate this strife for the stiff-necked and to reap the harvest of fruitful work.

TBC

frosbel:

No Sir.

It is either the fire is literal as Jesus stated or it is not.

You cannot pick and choose some parts of the parable as literal and others as not.

We have to be consistent here.

Btw what is the rich man's name ?

What does the burning bush have to do with this ? Or should we start looking for fire all over the bible and qualify these occurrences as evidence to support your bogus hell ?

God is a consuming fire, and just because the bush Moses saw was not consumed does not mean God's fire will not consume his enemies.