frosbel:

Very poor scholarship.

Show me where incarnate is used in the bible.

Let me educate you with a Lexicon on what Manifest means from the original language

phaneroó: to make visible, make clear
Original Word: φανερόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: phaneroó
Phonetic Spelling: (fan-er-o'-o)
Short Definition: I make clear, visible, or manifest
Definition: I make clear (visible, manifest), make known.


This is very different to incarnate where a spirit being becomes embodied in the flesh , the stuff of Pagans.

the word is God the word became flesh..
God manifest in the flesh. You see how they go to together? You want more verse? Na WA to you o

Itsfacts:

the word is God the word became flesh..
God manifest in the flesh. You see how they go to together? You want more verse? Na WA to you o

Yes they go together.

God was revealed not incarnated in the Flesh.

Jesus Christ was the expreess image of his peron because :

"The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." - John 8:29

A more succintly presented scripture, which I hope may open your eyes a little further to the truth is as follows :

"The Son radiates God's own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven." - Hebrews 1:3

ijawkid:

What you explained about Jesus being firstborn is half baked.....

I am explaining what firstborn means and how it all applies to Jesus.....

Ok now answer this straight....

Remember my aim here is to establish that Jesus had a beginning........

That is why I have been quoting multiple scriptures to show and define what firstborn means.......

This is where I'm heading at.:::

You gave an example of pharoahs firstborn right??.....

Is pharoahs firstborn not amongst pharoahs sons but the first of them all??.......

Isreal who ofcourse is Jacob has as his firstborn as REUBEN........how does that negate the fact that Jacob pre-existed before Reuben and begot reuben but reuben being the first of his children??..........

If Jesus is Gods firstborn son and the firstborn of all creation and also the beginning of the creation of GOD(please read genesis 49:3 to understand the words firstborn of and beginning of) why exempt Jesus from the created family??.......

I am including Jesus as part of the things / persons that were created by God but Jesus being the first of them all just as the firstborn of pharoah and Jacob are part of the group of engendered sons but they being the first.........you guys are exempting Jesus making him a co-equal with the GOD and Father who begot him.........

your problem is you don't understand what Preeminence means... It simply doesn't mean preexist as you state whereas it means Superior to or notable above all others; outstanding. See Synonyms at dominant, that is why Israel was lifted above all nation above Egypt. Same with David. If I call my last born firstborn am saying he is above my other children. I don't know what you are trying to explain but you seem not to understand the meaning

ijawkid:

What you explained about Jesus being firstborn is half baked.....

I am explaining what firstborn means and how it all applies to Jesus.....

Ok now answer this straight....

Remember my aim here is to establish that Jesus had a beginning........

That is why I have been quoting multiple scriptures to show and define what firstborn means.......

This is where I'm heading at.:::

You gave an example of pharoahs firstborn right??.....

Is pharoahs firstborn not amongst pharoahs sons but the first of them all??.......

Isreal who ofcourse is Jacob has as his firstborn as REUBEN........how does that negate the fact that Jacob pre-existed before Reuben and begot reuben but reuben being the first of his children??..........

If Jesus is Gods firstborn son and the firstborn of all creation and also the beginning of the creation of GOD(please read genesis 49:3 to understand the words firstborn of and beginning of) why exempt Jesus from the created family??.......

I am including Jesus as part of the things / persons that were created by God but Jesus being the first of them all just as the firstborn of pharoah and Jacob are part of the group of engendered sons but they being the first.........you guys are exempting Jesus making him a co-equal with the GOD and Father who begot him.........

Oh boy you are not really explaining anything. You are trying to force meaning into it. You didn't answer how Jesus created him self including every single thing in even and earth. You know other did not exist. You should be asking new world translation what is it they are hiding. And did you try to use proverb to prove Jesus was created? Cause you will make your argument look more like joke

benalvino:
your problem is you don't understand what Preeminence means... It simply doesn't mean preexist as you state whereas it means Superior to or notable above all others; outstanding. See Synonyms at dominant, that is why Israel was lifted above all nation above Egypt. Same with David. If I call my last born firstborn am saying he is above my other children. I don't know what you are trying to explain but you seem not to understand the meaning

now he says i dont understand what pre-eminence means.....what you have done is define firstborn of to mean one thing and not any other thing...i agree with your definition ,why cant you agree with my definition and that of the rest of the scriptures??because you know you wont be able to stand the truth that is staring right at you...

i have even brought out the expression beginning of to suuport what it really means when Jesus is called Gods firstborn and the firstborn of all creation....

ok you said you can call your lastborn firstborn right??....can you call the lastborn of your family the beginning of your reproductive powers??

would that not be madness??....

Jesus is not just pre-eminent over all things created,he is part of Gods creation but the first of Gods creative works.....

i want you to start corroborating first born of and beginning of

Itsfacts:

Oh boy you are not really explaining anything. You are trying to force meaning into it. You didn't answer how Jesus created him self including every single thing in even and earth. You know other did not exist. You should be asking new world translation what is it they are hiding. And did you try to use proverb to prove Jesus was created? Cause you will make your argument look more like joke

i wouldnt quote proverbs yet,....i want us to define these words consistently from the scriptures....Jesus was begotten...dont tell me you dont know he was begotten....Jesus had a start....thats another word that smashes any ones stance that Jesus never had a beginning.....

let us see what begotten means...;;;

Main Entry: bear
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: give birth
Synonyms: be delivered of, beget, breed, bring forth, create, develop, engender, form, fructify, generate, invent, make, parturitate, [b]produc[/b]e, propagate, provide, reproduce, yield


soon you guys would tell me begotten has another meaning....

i dey wait for ona.....

and dont quickly jump into the NWT issue....let us finish this discussion...

and also please ask benalvino and yourself if you can appoint your your lastborn as the beginning of your reproductive power...

....

I have a very simple question for ALL: Who is the Source of Life?

nlMediator: I have a very simple question for ALL: Who is the Source of Life?

the source of all lives with that of Jesus inclusive is Yahweh whom all of us(including Jesus) are image of...

ijawkid:

i wouldnt quote proverbs yet,....i want us to define these words consistently from the scriptures....Jesus was begotten...dont tell me you dont know he was begotten....Jesus had a start....thats another word that smashes any ones stance that Jesus never had a beginning.....

let us see what begotten means...;;;

Main Entry: bear
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: give birth
Synonyms: be delivered of, beget, breed, bring forth, create, develop, engender, form, fructify, generate, invent, make, parturitate, produc[/b]e, propagate, provide, reproduce, yield


soon you guys would tell me begotten has another meaning....

i dey wait for ona.....

and dont quickly jump into the NWT issue....let us finish this discussion...

and also please ask benalvino and yourself if you can appoint your your lastborn as the beginning of your reproductive power...

I have told you all the meaning... You were the one arguing that it has one meaning at first am happy now you agree is not firstborn as in first creation. When Mary had Jesus he was her firstborn not in the preeminent perspective but the firstchild perspective. No one will tell you anything. Its you who can admit they insert other to change the meaning of the text.

Could you present a full verse and to where you having this [b]beginning of you always put in bold?

benalvino:

I have told you all the meaning... You were the one arguing that it has one meaning at first am happy now you agree is not firstborn as in first creation. When Mary had Jesus he was her firstborn not in the preeminent perspective but the firstchild perspective. No one will tell you anything. Its you who can admit they insert other to change the meaning of the text.

Could you present a full verse and to where you having this beginning of you always put in bold?

i wasnt even arguing it had one meaning.,...i agree to all the meanings...it is you guys who have chosen to hang to one meaning to run away from facts presented.....

i have been quoting genesis 49:3 to show exactly and in context what Jesus being the firstborn and the beginning of Gods creation means....

there are more scriptures that have consistently shown what firstborn of or beginning of means and how and why they are used ..........

i think genesis is a starting point....

and please also sit back and quietly analyze what it means for someone or something to be begotten/.....

and even if the NWT removes the other in bracket it still doesnt erase the truth.......

i would give u a reason why other was put in bracket......

but before that please read this scripture to know why other was put there....


1 Corinthians 15:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


this scripture up there explains why the other was put in bracket...

if one reads the above scripture one might think that the expression all things excludes Jesus from been under the authority of a superior....but paul just for clarification sake had to go further to say God who ofcourse is greater than Jesus is excepted from the authority of Jesus while Jesus is under his authority....

the all in colossians drives home the same meaning....that is why the previous verses before verses 16-17 of colossians 1 had refered to Jesus as the image of GOD and the firstborn of all creation.....

Yahweh ofcourse is excepted but Jesus is part of all who was begeted by Yahweh the source of all life.....Jesus' existence and source of life is from Yahweh.....Jesus had a beginning....he was begotten,but was the first of whatever God created...thank you....

ijawkid:

i wasnt even arguing it had one meaning.,...i agree to all the meanings...it is you guys who have chosen to hang to one meaning to run away from facts presented.....

i have been quoting genesis 49:3 to show exactly and in context what Jesus being the firstborn and the beginning of Gods creation means....

there are more scriptures that have consistently shown what firstborn of or beginning of means and how and why they are used ..........

i think genesis is a starting point....

and please also sit back and quietly analyze what it means for someone or something to be begotten/.....

and even if the NWT removes the other in bracket it still doesnt erase the truth.......

i would give u a reason why other was put in bracket......

but before that please read this scripture to know why other was put there....


1 Corinthians 15:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


this scripture up there explains why the other was put in bracket...

if one reads the above scripture one might think that the expression all things excludes Jesus from been under the authority of a superior....but paul just for clarification sake had to go further to say God who ofcourse is greater than Jesus is excepted from the authority of Jesus while Jesus is under his authority....

the all in colossians drives home the same meaning....that is why the previous verses before verses 16-17 of colossians 1 had refered to Jesus as the image of GOD and the firstborn of all creation.....

Yahweh ofcourse is excepted but Jesus is part of all who was begeted by Yahweh the source of all life.....Jesus' existence and source of life is from Yahweh.....Jesus had a beginning....he was begotten,but was the first of whatever God created...thank you....

Jacob Blesses his Sons
1And Jacob called to his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days. 2Gather yourselves together, and hear, you sons of Jacob; and listen to Israel your father. 3Reuben, you are my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power: … you don't explain the beginning you just keep bring it the full verse in context shows the meaning I dont see what you want to make out of it. Could you explain? And why are you bringing begotten again? So the argument can go on for ever? Begginning of my strength how does it relate to firstborn? How is this related to Jesus? And is excellence of dignity also relate to firstborn? I really not getting the point you are trying to make... You still trying to say firstborn means first created yet you claiming you agree with all my explanation of the meaning of firsyborn... U are not agreeing bro

Emmm I can't believe you are trying to justify why they put other things... I mean are you serious? It means you are using that passage to say Jesus is a thing so in colosians they add other things there. It makes my head hurts not making sense at all. Honestly if other was suppose to be there it would have been In colosians you can't make excuse on this honestly

benalvino:


Jacob Blesses his Sons
1And Jacob called to his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days. 2Gather yourselves together, and hear, you sons of Jacob; and listen to Israel your father. 3Reuben, you are my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power: … you don't explain the beginning you just keep bring it the full verse in context shows the meaning I dont see what you want to make out of it. Could you explain? And why are you bringing begotten again? So the argument can go on for ever? Begginning of my strength how does it relate to firstborn? How is this related to Jesus? And is excellence of dignity also relate to firstborn? I really not getting the point you are trying to make

From genesis 49:3 reuben being the beginning of jacobs virility or reproductive power simply means reuben was the firstborn and the first ever child jacob had..........

Before reuben jacob had no child.......reuben started the line of jacobs children......

And please begotten is allowed to be brought....remember the aim of our argument here is to prove wether Jesus had a beginning or he didn't ..........


.........

I'm using scriptures upon scriptures to explain why Jesus has a beginning and that his reason for existence and why he exists and still exist is because of the Father...........

You want more scriptures??....

ijawkid:


From genesis 49:3 reuben being the beginning of jacobs virility or reproductive power simply means reuben was the firstborn and the first ever child jacob had..........

Before reuben jacob had no child.......reuben started the line of jacobs children......

And please begotten is allowed to be brought....remember the aim of our argument here is to prove wether Jesus had a beginning or he didn't ..........


.........

I'm using scriptures upon scriptures to explain why Jesus has a beginning and that his reason for existence and why he exists and still exist is because of the Father...........

You want more scriptures??....

Read my last post and Reuben being firstborn has nothing to do with beginning of my strenght why are you arguing this? If Reuben was his firstborn yes he is... It doesn't prove anything

benalvino:

Read my last post and Reuben being firstborn has nothing to do with beginning of my strenght why are you arguing this? If Reuben was his firstborn yes he is... It doesn't prove anything

it has everything to do with it........

Read this scripture again....

Deuteronomy 21:17

King James Bible (Cambridge
Ed.)
But he shall acknowledge the son
of the hated for the firstborn, by
giving him a double portion of all
that he hath: for he is the
beginning of his strength; the
right of the firstborn is his.


This is another clÉar juxtaposition.........

A child being the beginning of his Fathers virility simply means that child is the first child of the Fathers reproductive adventure........

Do you understand??.....

Benalvino see a clearer rendition on deuteronomy which is the same as that in genesis..

NET Bible (©2006)
Rather, he must acknowledge the
son of the less loved wife as
firstborn and give him the double
portion of all he has, for that son
is the beginning of his father's
procreative power--to him should
go the right of the firstborn.

ijawkid:

it has everything to do with it........

Read this scripture again....

Deuteronomy 21:17

King James Bible (Cambridge
Ed.)
But he shall acknowledge the son
of the hated for the firstborn, by
giving him a double portion of all
that he hath: for he is the
beginning of his strength; the
right of the firstborn is his.


This is another clÉar juxtaposition.........

A child being the beginning of his Fathers virility simply means that child is the first child of the Fathers reproductive adventure........

Do you understand??.....

It has nothing to do or you saying Jesus is Gods strength now?

Honestly youv have no excuse

ijawkid:


From genesis 49:3 reuben being the beginning of jacobs virility or reproductive power simply means reuben was the firstborn and the first ever child jacob had..........

Before reuben jacob had no child.......reuben started the line of jacobs children......

And please begotten is allowed to be brought....remember the aim of our argument here is to prove wether Jesus had a beginning or he didn't ..........


.........

I'm using scriptures upon scriptures to explain why Jesus has a beginning and that his reason for existence and why he exists and still exist is because of the Father...........

You want more scriptures??....

if Jesus has a beginning why did he say he is the alpha and omega in the book of Revelation?

Dux-01:
if Jesus has a beginning why did he say he is the alpha and omega in the book of Revelation?

The bible never said Jesus have a beginning he is trying to make meaning out of something that mean completely different thing.

frosbel: The Trinity is PAGAN.

God is ONE , Jesus said so himself :

"Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD." - Mark 12:29

i want to ask you this question.Is Jesus Christ worthy to be worshipped?

ijawkid: the source of all lives with that of Jesus inclusive is Yahweh whom all of us(including Jesus) are image of...

Thank you. Do you have a scripture to back your position on this? By ALL lives, do you include both spiritual and physical lives, i.e. being alive physically and being saved?

Also, I'll like to hear from others, so I can give a more comprehensive response. It's not a hard question, so I expect more answers soon.

benalvino:

The bible never said Jesus have a beginning he is trying to make meaning out of something that mean completely different thing.

I laugh in ijaw.....Jesus had no beginning but he was begotten.....

How can one who was begotten not have a beginning??....has the word begotten changed from its meaning.....

I have only used those scriptures to prove clear points which is left for you and your colleagues to ruminate on........

These are clear expressions that shows Jesus had a beginning...

1...He was begotten
2...He is the beginning of Gods creation...
3..He is Gods first born...
4..He is the image of God....

You can wrench those words but it would bring you back to the point that Jesus had a beginning.....his life was kick started by Yahweh..........

nlMediator:

Thank you. Do you have a scripture to back your position on this? By ALL lives, do you include both spiritual and physical lives, i.e. being alive physically and being saved?

Also, I'll like to hear from others, so I can give a more comprehensive response. It's not a hard question, so I expect more answers soon.

I mean all life....be it that of Jesus,the angels,humans and all breathing thing.........
______________________________
Please read John 6:67

New Living Translation (©2007)
I live because of the living Father
who sent me; in the same way,
anyone who feeds on me will live
because of me.

_______________________________
Also consider hebrews 2:10-11

10 It was only right that God, who creates
and preserves all things, should make Jesus
perfect through suffering, in order to bring
many children to share his glory. For Jesus is
the one who leads them to salvation. 11 He
purifies people from their sins, and both he
and those who are made pure all have the same
Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to
call them his family.
______________________________



Have you in your wildest dreams asked why we share the same Father and GOD with Jesus??.......

benalvino:

dont call Adam the eternal father bible never teaches that

who called Adam eternal father ?

I did not. I only drew an analogy.

I had asked you, if Adam had not sinned and was alive today, will he not be our eternal father?

Will that ^ had ment that he had no beginning?

You deliberately misapplied my statement.

ijawkid:

Did God call david his Firstborn??....answer the question............

You guys have answered zilch......

This elementary argument is tiring and discouraging me, not when they are even deceitful, twisting peoples statement.

truthislight:

who called Adam eternal father ?

I did not. I only drew an analogy.

I had asked you, if Adam had not sinned and was alive today, will he not be our eternal father?

Will that ^ had ment that he had no beginning?

You deliberately misapplied my statement.

Sorry if I did and even if I did... And even so your statement was wrong too. No one is deceiving anyone. We had a discuss which am tired of. I dont see you posting much I dont know why you are the one getting tired so easily.

My reply to you simply stated even if Adam did not sin he won't be the eternal father now you know that I am not just saying U R calling Adam eternal father for the fact that he sin but am saying you can't call him even if he didn't sin.

Itsfacts:
till you answer all question you have been asked what is the point of you asking more?

Smh.

Ijawkid has answered this question since but you refuse or you cant see.

benalvino:

Psalms 89:27

And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. You are the one who have to answer. All the question we asked you all you did was ask other question to run from it go back and answer why is Israel God firstborn David and few others. Try answer all those questions pls do not reply with questions reply with answers

ijawkid:

Do you see the bolded ^ up there.....??......and immediately after the bolded the answer was given...........

You guys have been running around defining firstborn in just one way which is at best wayo on your part..........


Let us define firstborn proper so that y'all can get your senses aroused.......

Genesis 49:3

New American Standard Bible
(©1995)
"Reuben, you are my firstborn; My
might and the beginning of my
strength, Preeminent in dignity
and preeminent in power.


Again I would ask you both.........how is Jesus the Gods firstborn or the firstborn and beginning of all creation...??....how is reuben jacobs firstborn and also the beginning of his virility??



Let me go straight into the discussion proper with the questions above.........

He said that the Psalm is talking about God "appointing" some one, and not that the person is the first born son of God like Jesus.

Learn to get the argument right and stop going like a fail break train.

Itsfacts:

You see what am saying? Are you helping me or what?

Manifest incarnate how does it matter? What is your point? The thing is the bible said Jesus was incarnated before he got into mary's womb...

Bible say God manifest in the flesh which means bible is teaching Jesus is God.

Meanwhile, you forgot that the word god is a title that any entity that receives worship is called, even stones and satan.

But if he appointed David to be his firstborn then he has gotten 2 firstborn na... Can't you understand? And thanks for making my case stronger... In this case the firstborn is neither A first child of God or his parents nor is it the first created... Instead the verse is saying he is higher than all the kings in the earth that is preeminence.

benalvino:
If I call my last born firstborn am saying he is above my other children.

Guy, what do you smoke? ^^^ do you smoke Jamaican weed?

truthislight:


Guy, what do you smoke? ^^^ do you smoke Jamaican weed?

I believe you dont understand the discussion we had and you dont know the meaning of firstborn. Whether I smoke weed or not it doesn't change the fact I made there... Firstborn is not only your first child... It also means other thing too. It means superiority.

ijawkid:

i wasnt even arguing it had one meaning.,...i agree to all the meanings...it is you guys who have chosen to hang to one meaning to run away from facts presented.....

i have been quoting genesis 49:3 to show exactly and in context what Jesus being the firstborn and the beginning of Gods creation means....

there are more scriptures that have consistently shown what firstborn of or beginning of means and how and why they are used ..........

i think genesis is a starting point....

and please also sit back and quietly analyze what it means for someone or something to be begotten/.....

and even if the NWT removes the other in bracket it still doesnt erase the truth.......

i would give u a reason why other was put in bracket......

but before that please read this scripture to know why other was put there....


1 Corinthians 15:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


this scripture up there explains why the other was put in bracket...

if one reads the above scripture one might think that the expression all things excludes Jesus from been under the authority of a superior....but paul just for clarification sake had to go further to say God who ofcourse is greater than Jesus is excepted from the authority of Jesus while Jesus is under his authority....

the all in colossians drives home the same meaning....that is why the previous verses before verses 16-17 of colossians 1 had refered to Jesus as the image of GOD and the firstborn of all creation.....

Yahweh ofcourse is excepted but Jesus is part of all who was begeted by Yahweh the source of all life.....Jesus' existence and source of life is from Yahweh.....Jesus had a beginning....he was begotten,but was the first of whatever God created...thank you....

you should have add this below for him:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28).

Simply the magnificent truth ^.