XxSabrinaxX:
@ihedinobi3 Don't tell me you've taken to your heels already o ... cause i'm still very much here waiting for your answer! Show me how I misrepresented the bible unless you just want me to believe that you're full of shi!t. You're a dumbass and you can't read, you need to stop sitting at the back of the classroom and start sitting at the front.

I have far less reason to continue to engage with you than you clearly think. I continue to do so for my own reasons. And if you look through my posting history, you will soon learn that I am not much bothered by personal attacks. If you had not changed your tack, I would have moved on already. If you make reasonable arguments, I will answer them. If you don't, I won't. I don't owe you a single thing.

Ihedinobi3:

I have far less reason to continue to engage with you than you clearly think. I continue to do so for my own reasons. And if you look through my posting history, you will soon learn that I am not much bothered by personal attacks. If you had not changed your tack, I would have moved on already. If you make reasonable arguments, I will answer them. If you don't, I won't. I don't owe you a single thing.

I've gone through both our first posts and I don't see how I misrepresented the bible, so you've got nothing on that point. If you have nothing else to offer besides meaninglessly scrutinizing my posts and making false claims, please see yourself out of this thread. Its your attitude that made me curse you out in the first place.

Ihedinobi3:

So, how would you stop such crimes before they happen?



First of all, what I said is:

"God gives nothing good indefinitely to those who want no part of Him."

"Indefinitely" is a keyword there. Right now, those who want no part of God are still enjoying His good things.

To your question, whether or not they reject God out of their own free will, how can God be obliged in any respect to anybody?



You are not far off the mark. Let me quote something I said elsewhere as well:

"Free will is the moral creature's God-given right to choose whether to submit to God or to rebel against Him. But because nothing at all can happen unless God empowers it, our choices were all ordained by God before He even created anything. These choices however were ordained because God knew for certain exactly what each of us want to choose. That is, God knew that Pharaoh, for example, would not want to submit to Him, so He made him so that he would choose not to. For an opposite example, God knew that David would want to be devoted to Him, so He made him so that he would choose to be.

What this means is that free will is a true ability that creatures possess to decide their own eternal fate. God's Own Part is to make those choices possible since He alone can because of both His Omniscience and His Omnipotence."
- https://www.nairaland.com/4944310/gods-omnipotence-contradicts-requirement-free/2#74574900



Now, the only way that God can prevent people from sinning if they want to is to take away their free will, that is, their right and responsibility to decide whether or not to obey Him. Is that what you are advocating that God should have done?




Let me explain again: you are challenging the Christian position. That means that you need to make assumptions consistent with said position in order to demonstrate the errors in the position. You cannot force your own premises upon the arguments you are attacking.

The Christian position assumes a free will. We are currently discussing that elsewhere. For this particular argument, you have to answer on the assumption that there is a free will. If you cannot, then you cannot make an objection that I would countenance.



Go on. How so?

From another thread... again:
"Suppose I am making the free will decision of what to eat for lunch today. The way god has designed the universe, he stripped from my free will the ability to choose to eat a unicorn sandwich. That simply is not within my realm of options. He also designed my brain and designed the world to shape my experiences to result in me not having the desire to eat cockroaches. Maybe I will develop that later, but as for today, I do not crave a cockroach sandwich. That is a very strong influence on my free will and part of god's design. God also designed my body so as not to be able to eat or digest a concrete building. In fact, the vast majority of items in the universe have been excluded from my free will options for my lunch today.

Now those are all examples that are obvious and easy for us to comprehend. But there are more nuanced ways that god has influenced my free will, such as exposing me to a cloud that looks like a hamburger this morning. And there are infinitely more ways that god has narrowed my free will simply based on the specific details in how he designed the laws of physics/chemistry/etc. In his infinite power, he could have designed physics and chemistry such that this particular cloud that I happened to see this morning would look, instead, like a pizza. God designed all of the details of physics and chemistry with perfect knowledge that today I would see a cloud resembling a hamburger and knowing with full certainty how it would influence my physiological cravings. When I ultimately make my decision for lunch, there's no telling how much influence that cloud had on my decision. But those infinitely many other influences certainly combine to have a huge effect if not the entire.

What I am saying is that god is so powerful and had such perfect knowledge at the time of creation that his choice in the details of the physics and chemistry included what kind of sandwich he wanted me to be influenced to eat today. It is actually extremely impressive. But it also means I either have no free will or free will to an incredibly tiny degree. To say otherwise is to say that god is at least slightly less than 100.0% omniscient and/or omnipotent. Theists get so upset about that contention. But goodness, if god is only 99.999999999999451% of either of those, that is still really freaking impressive! It's intellectually dishonest when theists won't concede that it is logically impossible for god to be 100.0% omniscient and omnipotent AND for us to have free will."
Hope this informs you of my stance on omniscience, omnipotence and free will, cos honestly, i'm done with your wahala

XxSabrinaxX:


I've gone through both our first posts and I don't see how I misrepresented the bible, so you've got nothing on that point. If you have nothing else to offer besides meaninglessly scrutinizing my posts and making false claims, please see yourself out of this thread. Its your attitude that made me curse you out in the first place.

Analysis:

XxSabrinaxX: "Hell is a horrible idea. If God truly thinks that our “freewill” based on a limited time on earth means most of us have to live in a “hell” forever, then
yes, he’s evil, and terribly insane."

Ihedinobi3: Hell exists, according to the Bible, in order to separate out those who do not want to be ruled by God from the Creation over which He rules...would you really be advocating that it is fair to subject people who don't want to be ruled by God to His Rule eternally, that is, without any respite at all?


XxSabrinaxX: "However, i also want to add that if hell actually exists, then the cold truth is that ultimately, most of the human race is going there. Some Christians like to downplay this. It’s an undeniable fact if we applied Christian theology, there's really no debate.
This not only makes God evil, but portrays Satan as a smarter, more efficient presence amongst man, resulting in Satan winning his purpose over Jesus."

Ihedinobi3: ...when God graciously grants a way of escape out of rebellion against Him and the terrifying consequences due to such a thing, why is He to be blamed when the majority refuse to take it when it costs them nothing but simple Faith and Trust in Him?


XxSabrinaxX: "Jesus came to earth to save mankind. Judging by the kind of lives we live, i think its safe to say that God has been highly incompetent in making man see the truth."

Ihedinobi3: how would it be loving of God to force people to obey Him? Would it not be more consistent with Love to allow them to choose whether they want to or not? That is what free will is about.


My first post was not designed to be confrontational. I do that deliberately to avoid unnecessary acrimony. But when I do it with a dishonest debater, they can always pretend not to see how I have shown the straw men in their arguments. That is just what you have done.

Because your post was a sophistry, it is mostly what you imply that is the falsehood. And that was why my response was with questions. You were to explain what you meant. But you stayed true to type and did your best to avoid explaining your position, preferring instead to try and make me responsible to defend arguments you independently attributed to me.

Now, the Christian position is that God created Hell to remove all moral creatures who do not want to submit to Him from His Eternal Kingdom. Your argument not only failed to recognize that this is what Hell is for according to the Christian position but also seemed to suggest that this is an evil thing for God to do. Why it is though is unclear. That is a misrepresentation of the Biblical position.

Second, you claim that some Christians downplay the idea that the majority of humanity will go to Hell. This is an underhanded way of making it seem like the Christian position is the same as what these Christians you speak of are alleged by you to say. The biblical position is clearly that the majority, the vast majority in fact, will go to Hell. If some Christians downplay it, then they are misrepresenting the Bible and if you quote them to add strength to an antibiblical argument, you too misrepresent the Bible. The Bible is not at all difficult to understand in that regard. But that is not all.

You go on to claim that it shows that God is evil and inept. You are certainly entitled to your own opinions but when you say that a biblical position shows something, you are responsible to show how it does. This was why I asked you to explain your statements in light of what the Bible actually teaches. But you obviously did not and probably cannot.

Third, you imply that Jesus somehow failed just because many (or all? It's unclear if your argument in this is universal or just addressing the majority) human beings live lives contrary to His Teachings. But the biblical position is that because of creature free will, many human beings will reject Christ and many of those who do accept Him will not take Him seriously enough to make the adjustments that He commands of us. So, here again, you misrepresent the Bible.


Bonus point: you cussed me out because you wanted to cuss me out. My attitude had nothing to do with it. I had more than enough incentive from your own behavior to give you the same treatment and I did not. All anyone has to do to see if my attitude had anything to do with it is to check you posting record. How you treat Christians in general refutes you.

Ihedinobi3:

XxSabrinaxX: "Hell is a horrible idea. If God truly thinks that our “freewill” based on a limited time on earth means most of us have to live in a “hell” forever, then
yes, he’s evil, and terribly insane."

Ihedinobi3: Hell exists, according to the Bible, in order to separate out those who do not want to be ruled by God from the Creation over which He rules...would you really be advocating that it is fair to subject people who don't want to be ruled by God to His Rule eternally, that is, without any respite at all?

XxSabrinaxX: "However, i also want to add that if hell actually exists, then the cold truth is that ultimately, most of the human race is going there. Some Christians like to downplay this. It’s an undeniable fact if we applied Christian theology, there's really no debate.
This not only makes God evil, but portrays Satan as a smarter, more efficient presence amongst man, resulting in Satan winning his purpose over Jesus."

Ihedinobi3: ...when God graciously grants a way of escape out of rebellion against Him and the terrifying consequences due to such a thing, why is He to be blamed when the majority refuse to take it when it costs them nothing but simple Faith and Trust in Him?


XxSabrinaxX: "Jesus came to earth to save mankind. Judging by the kind of lives we live, i think its safe to say that God has been highly incompetent in making man see the truth."

Ihedinobi3: how would it be loving of God to force people to obey Him? Would it not be more consistent with Love to allow them to choose whether they want to or not? That is what free will is about.

I still fail to see how i "misrepresented the bible" according to you. I know who hell was intended for but the idea of a being having free will and being omnipotent at the same time is one of the places where the bible contradicts itself because it is simply not possible. First of all, you need to understand that the reason I put freewill in parenthesis there is because I don't believe in freewill if God exists. Why? It contradicts the qualities/properties of God. I've already explained this thousand of times, both here and in other threads.

1 John 3:8 ESV
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
John 8:44 ESV
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
According to the bible, Hell was originally created for the devil and his cohorts. Then again, hell is also for the defaulters of christian values and morals as shown above in Revelation 21:8. I guess we can agree that this is a fact in the bible, unless you're a metaphorical theist.

Also, note that the bible has many passages declaring God's omniscience and omnipotence:
Psalm 147:5 ESV
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.
Jeremiah 1:5 ESV
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Jeremiah 23:24 ESV
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.
Psalm 139:1-6 ESV
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ...
Matthew 19:26 ESV
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Isaiah 40:28 ESV
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

Can you see where i'm going with this now?

If we agree that God has been omnipotent and omniscient since even the universe was formed, this means that god not only knows every single thing that will happen in the universe, in fact, he himself fashioned it this way! He knows the conclusion of every test. He knows the end from the beginning. He knows the sinners and faithful ones before he even created them. He has already predetermined their actions. If we say all this is false, then this means that God was not omnipotent at the start of the universe, which would be a contradiction. In creating the universe, God has already planned all events which are to happen. What you think is freewill, is actually what God has already planned you to do loooooong before you even came into existence.
Thus, God created Lucifer to rebel against, God created sinners to sin against him. God created me to reject religion and become an atheist. The universe is just a simulation started God, who knows EXACTLY how everything will come to a conclusion. If free will truly existed, then that means there is no God. There is no first cause. There is no omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being overseeing the universe. So, I'm sorry but I can't simply assume the existence of freewill because that will contradict the existence of a God.
I want to clarify that I am talking of the theistic God. I personally find Deism to be more logical and likely to be true than Theism. Theism just makes so many claims about extra dimensions like Heaven, Paradise and Hell, supernatural entities like Angels and Demons etc when in real life, there's no way to falsify these claims. There is no testifiable evidence in reality that these dimensions and entities exist. This is why atheists exist in the first place. Besides, if an omnipotent God who is all loving wanted to save mankind, why couldn't he just delete the tree of good and evil, or make them eat of the tree of life to save them? And i'm going to answer a question you and many christians keep asking me with another question?:
Question:"Why would a loving God force people to obey him?"
My answer:"Why would a loving God force people to disobey him?"
This is why your questions ultimately make no sense to me.

Ihedinobi3:
My first post was not designed to be confrontational. I do that deliberately to avoid unnecessary acrimony. But when I do it with a dishonest debater, they can always pretend not to see how I have shown the straw men in their arguments. That is just what you have done.

Only thing I've seen you do is try to force the burden of proof on me. And when i answer you, you keep taking us round in circles just so we don't get to the part where you have to prove your God's existence.

Ihedinobi3:
Because your post was a sophistry, it is mostly what you imply that is the falsehood. And that was why my response was with questions. You were to explain what you meant. But you stayed true to type and did your best to avoid explaining your position, preferring instead to try and make me responsible to defend arguments you independently attributed to me.

I've explained my position from the very onset. Denying this doesn't make it any less true.

Ihedinobi3:
Now, the Christian position is that God created Hell to remove all moral creatures who do not want to submit to Him from His Eternal Kingdom. Your argument not only failed to recognize that this is what Hell is for according to the Christian position but also seemed to suggest that this is an evil thing for God to do. Why it is though is unclear. That is a misrepresentation of the Biblical position.

[img]https://media1./images/53299344082e8b688b674035719eb92f/tenor.gif[/img]
HOW ON EARTH IS THIS A MISREPRESENTATION?
Are Humans not moral creatures? Don't you think I know what hell is? Yes, hell is an evil thing for God to do. Who created Lucifer? Was it God or not? The only way Lucifer would have had free will is if God did not create him. But he did. If God created Lucifer, he is ultimately responsible for Lucifer's rebellion because he predetermined Lucy's decision. I've explained this already. You're the one grasping at straws here to be perfectly honest.

Ihedinobi3:
Second, you claim that some Christians downplay the idea that the majority of humanity will go to Hell. This is an underhanded way of making it seem like the Christian position is the same as what these Christians you speak of are alleged by you to say. The biblical position is clearly that the majority, the vast majority in fact, will go to Hell. If some Christians downplay it, then they are misrepresenting the Bible and if you quote them to add strength to an antibiblical argument, you too misrepresent the Bible. The Bible is not at all difficult to understand in that regard. But that is not all.

When I said christians like to downplay this, I wasn't just saying for the sake of it. It is true. You just need to look at certain posts of some christian users here and even christians you meet offline in public. I even said it in my first post that the bible affirms that multitudes will be damned; that's what I meant when I said "If we applied Christian theology". And how do I misrepresent the bible by calling out christians for misrepresenting the bible?
[img]https://media1./images/86f3b65249fbaca12e142281558c06ac/tenor.gif[/img]
And besides, I've already stated that if multitudes are going hell even after Jesus came to "take away" man's sins, that makes Satan a more stronger presence than God, which is absurd given that God was his creator.

Ihedinobi3:
You go on to claim that it shows that God is evil and inept. You are certainly entitled to your own opinions but when you say that a biblical position shows something, you are responsible to show how it does. This was why I asked you to explain your statements in light of what the Bible actually teaches. But you obviously did not and probably cannot.

I've already explained my statements, and it would be very cowardly of you to say that I haven't. If you still don't get, go back to my previous posts. If you can't, I can't kill myself for you.

Ihedinobi3:
Third, you imply that Jesus somehow failed just because many (or all? It's unclear if your argument in this is universal or just addressing the majority) human beings live lives contrary to His Teachings. But the biblical position is that because of creature free will, many human beings will reject Christ and many of those who do accept Him will not take Him seriously enough to make the adjustments that He commands of us. So, here again, you misrepresent the Bible.

This is not a misrepresentation, its simply a matter of irony. Like I said, I know damn well what the bible says about how "narrow is the way and only few can make it" crap. But the underlying truth or contradiction, depending on how you see it, is that God even after his attempt to redeem mankind, is still losing souls to Satan. This is where the "Incompetent" part of my argument comes in.

Ihedinobi3:
Bonus point: you cussed me out because you wanted to cuss me out. My attitude had nothing to do with it. I had more than enough incentive from your own behavior to give you the same treatment and I did not. All anyone has to do to see if my attitude had anything to do with it is to check you posting record. How you treat Christians in general refutes you.

As much as you'd like to believe otherwise, the simple truth is you made me start insulting you. You kept throwing tantrums about how I ignored you and didn't reply to your questions when the truth is I never ignored you. I've already explained this. And every other argument you brought up, I tried my best to answer politely and let you know where I came from. So, stop being a baby about this. I never ignored you. Period. This has nothing to do with the topic anyway.

If you commit murder, God knows that you will do it....

He sends messages and warnings sometimes.

But you can decide to do it or not.

During a discussion, if you insult me, God knew that the discussion would lead to an insult...

He didn't ask you to insult me, but you choose to.

God would tell a king in the Bible, don't go to that war...

Because it won't end well.

And the king would decide to go regardless.

You choose what you do.

The devil causes you to do evil or disobey God while God's spirit causes his own to do good.

But the decision lies with man.

XxSabrinaxX:

I still fail to see how i "misrepresented the bible" according to you. I know who hell was intended for but the idea of a being having free will and being omnipotent at the same time is one of the places where the bible contradicts itself because it is simply not possible. First of all, you need to understand that the reason I put freewill in parenthesis there is because I don't believe in freewill if God exists. Why? It contradicts the qualities/properties of God. I've already explained this thousand of times, both here and in other threads.

1 John 3:8 ESV
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
John 8:44 ESV
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Revelation 21:8 ESV
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
According to the bible, Hell was originally created for the devil and his cohorts. Then again, hell is also for the defaulters of christian values and morals as shown above in Revelation 21:8. I guess we can agree that this is a fact in the bible, unless you're a metaphorical theist.

Hell is for all those who reject Christ. Not for those who just do bad things. The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ died for all human sins. So, it is only those who do not accept His Death on their behalf that will go to hell no matter how well they try to live. Those, on the other hand, who accept His Sacrifice will go to be with God no matter how poorly they live their lives although they will lose eternal rewards if they live their lives poorly.

As for free will, I like an orderly conversation so I won't mix two arguments together. I will address it elsewhere in this post

XxSabrinaxX:
Also, note that the bible has many passages declaring God's omniscience and omnipotence:
Psalm 147:5 ESV
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.
Jeremiah 1:5 ESV
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Jeremiah 23:24 ESV
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.
Psalm 139:1-6 ESV
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ...
Matthew 19:26 ESV
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Isaiah 40:28 ESV
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

Can you see where i'm going with this now?

If we agree that God has been omnipotent and omniscient since even the universe was formed, this means that god not only knows every single thing that will happen in the universe, in fact, he himself fashioned it this way! He knows the conclusion of every test. He knows the end from the beginning. He knows the sinners and faithful ones before he even created them. He has already predetermined their actions. If we say all this is false, then this means that God was not omnipotent at the start of the universe, which would be a contradiction. In creating the universe, God has already planned all events which are to happen. What you think is freewill, is actually what God has already planned you to do loooooong before you even came into existence.
Thus, God created Lucifer to rebel against, God created sinners to sin against him. God created me to reject religion and become an atheist. The universe is just a simulation started God, who knows EXACTLY how everything will come to a conclusion. If free will truly existed, then that means there is no God. There is no first cause. There is no omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being overseeing the universe. So, I'm sorry but I can't simply assume the existence of freewill because that will contradict the existence of a God.
I want to clarify that I am talking of the theistic God. I personally find Deism to be more logical and likely to be true than Theism. Theism just makes so many claims about extra dimensions like Heaven, Paradise and Hell, supernatural entities like Angels and Demons etc when in real life, there's no way to falsify these claims. There is no testifiable evidence in reality that these dimensions and entities exist. This is why atheists exist in the first place. Besides, if an omnipotent God who is all loving wanted to save mankind, why couldn't he just delete the tree of good and evil, or make them eat of the tree of life to save them? And i'm going to answer a question you and many christians keep asking me with another question?:
Question:"Why would a loving God force people to obey him?"
My answer:"Why would a loving God force people to disobey him?"
This is why your questions ultimately make no sense to me.

I commend you for this response. For all your abrasiveness, you can be delightful sometimes. If all you do is state your objections to the Christian Faith, properly accounting for what that Faith actually claims, I for one would only be sad that you are an unbeliever, not angry that you lie and try to swindle weak believers out of their Faith in Christ.

In response to the above, as I said before:

'You are not far off the mark. Let me quote something I said elsewhere as well:

"Free will is the moral creature's God-given right to choose whether to submit to God or to rebel against Him. But because nothing at all can happen unless God empowers it, our choices were all ordained by God before He even created anything. These choices however were ordained because God knew for certain exactly what each of us want to choose. That is, God knew that Pharaoh, for example, would not want to submit to Him, so He made him so that he would choose not to. For an opposite example, God knew that David would want to be devoted to Him, so He made him so that he would choose to be.

What this means is that free will is a true ability that creatures possess to decide their own eternal fate. God's Own Part is to make those choices possible since He alone can because of both His Omniscience and His Omnipotence."
- https://www.nairaland.com/4944310/gods-omnipotence-contradicts-requirement-free/2#74574900 '

XxSabrinaxX:
Only thing I've seen you do is try to force the burden of proof on me. And when i answer you, you keep taking us round in circles just so we don't get to the part where you have to prove your God's existence.

This is quite obviously not true. But I can understand the difference in perspective that exists between a militant atheist like yourself and a committed Christian like myself. It would be impossible to reconcile our beliefs about what has been happening between us. So, I won't respond to this. It would not accomplish anything of value if I did.

XxSabrinaxX:
I've explained my position from the very onset. Denying this doesn't make it any less true.

I am very happy to give you credit whenever it is due, not that you would believe that to be the case. So, if you had, I would not say that you hadn't.

XxSabrinaxX:
[img]https://media1./images/53299344082e8b688b674035719eb92f/tenor.gif[/img]
HOW ON EARTH IS THIS A MISREPRESENTATION?
Are Humans not moral creatures? Don't you think I know what hell is? Yes, hell is an evil thing for God to do. Who created Lucifer? Was it God or not? The only way Lucifer would have had free will is if God did not create him. But he did. If God created Lucifer, he is ultimately responsible for Lucifer's rebellion because he predetermined Lucy's decision. I've explained this already. You're the one grasping at straws here to be perfectly honest.

This position is only possible because you reject free will. I think your case for free will is demonstrably wrong but I understand if you disagree. But we would have to agree to disagree on it. As long as the Bible's position on the existence of creature free will is correct (and I completely believe that it is), this argument is false.

XxSabrinaxX:
When I said christians like to downplay this, I wasn't just saying for the sake of it. It is true. You just need to look at certain posts of some christian users here and even christians you meet offline in public. I even said it in my first post that the bible affirms that multitudes will be damned; that's what I meant when I said "If we applied Christian theology". And how do I misrepresent the bible by calling out christians for misrepresenting the bible?
[img]https://media1./images/86f3b65249fbaca12e142281558c06ac/tenor.gif[/img]
And besides, I've already stated that if multitudes are going hell even after Jesus came to "take away" man's sins, that makes Satan a more stronger presence than God, which is absurd given that God was his creator.

A sophistry is difficult to refute particularly because of what it implies, that is, what it does not state outright. That was the problem. The way you worked in the opinions of these Christians you spoke of is what made it seem like you were attributing something to the Bible, and, no, you did not state that the Bible said that the majority of human beings will go to Hell. You presented that fact like it was your own independently-discovered truth.

As for the case you make with the numbers, you assume that God's Success or failure is measured by the proportion of people that are saved. That is also failing to account for what the Bible's claim actually is. If the Bible claims that the majority would go to Hell, the reasonable thing to do is to ask what the point of Jesus's Sacrifice is.

The point is that there is a fixed number of people that God knows will be saved. They are what He will get to "win" the war. Of course, Jesus died for everybody so that it is not only this number of people that can be saved. Anyone can be saved, if they want to be. But only this number of people actually value God's Salvation enough to stick with the program until the end. And they are the target of Satan's fight. If all these people are saved, this number I spoke of, that is, Satan and the rest of the rebellious angels would have been fully replaced in God's Family and then they will be punished.

To prove that God is willing to save anybody who wants to be saved, even after that full number of human beings have been saved, God will still give human beings time to be saved and an equal number of those who sufficiently replaced Satan and his angels will still be saved. In other words, God's Success is not to be measured by the proportion of human beings saved but by the actual number of those saved. That is the Bible's position. You can tell me what your problem with it is.

XxSabrinaxX:
I've already explained my statements, and it would be very cowardly of you to say that I haven't. If you still don't get, go back to my previous posts. If you can't, I can't kill myself for you.

Like I said in response to a similar sentiment, we will have to agree to disagree on that.

XxSabrinaxX:
This is not a misrepresentation, its simply a matter of irony. Like I said, I know damn well what the bible says about how "narrow is the way and only few can make it" crap. But the underlying truth or contradiction, depending on how you see it, is that God even after his attempt to redeem mankind, is still losing souls to Satan. This is where the "Incompetent" part of my argument comes in.

Asked and answered above.

Ihedinobi3:

Hell is for all those who reject Christ. Not for those who just do bad things. The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ died for all human sins. So, it is only those who do not accept His Death on their behalf that will go to hell no matter how well they try to live. Those, on the other hand, who accept His Sacrifice will go to be with God no matter how poorly they live their lives although they will lose eternal rewards if they live their lives poorly.

As for free will, I like an orderly conversation so I won't mix two arguments together. I will address it elsewhere in this post



I commend you for this response. For all your abrasiveness, you can be delightful sometimes. If all you do is state your objections to the Christian Faith, properly accounting for what that Faith actually claims, I for one would only be sad that you are an unbeliever, not angry that you lie and try to swindle weak believers out of their Faith in Christ.

In response to the above, as I said before:

'You are not far off the mark. Let me quote something I said elsewhere as well:

"Free will is the moral creature's God-given right to choose whether to submit to God or to rebel against Him. But because nothing at all can happen unless God empowers it, our choices were all ordained by God before He even created anything. These choices however were ordained because God knew for certain exactly what each of us want to choose. That is, God knew that Pharaoh, for example, would not want to submit to Him, so He made him so that he would choose not to. For an opposite example, God knew that David would want to be devoted to Him, so He made him so that he would choose to be.

What this means is that free will is a true ability that creatures possess to decide their own eternal fate. God's Own Part is to make those choices possible since He alone can because of both His Omniscience and His Omnipotence."
- https://www.nairaland.com/4944310/gods-omnipotence-contradicts-requirement-free/2#74574900 '



This is quite obviously not true. But I can understand the difference in perspective that exists between a militant atheist like yourself and a committed Christian like myself. It would be impossible to reconcile our beliefs about what has been happening between us. So, I won't respond to this. It would not accomplish anything of value if I did.



I am very happy to give you credit whenever it is due, not that you would believe that to be the case. So, if you had, I would not say that you hadn't.



This position is only possible because you reject free will. I think your case for free will is demonstrably wrong but I understand if you disagree. But we would have to agree to disagree on it. As long as the Bible's position on the existence of creature free will is correct (and I completely believe that it is), this argument is false.



A sophistry is difficult to refute particularly because of what it implies, that is, what it does not state outright. That was the problem. The way you worked in the opinions of these Christians you spoke of is what made it seem like you were attributing something to the Bible, and, no, you did not state that the Bible said that the majority of human beings will go to Hell. You presented that fact like it was your own independently-discovered truth.

As for the case you make with the numbers, you assume that God's Success or failure is measured by the number of people that are saved. That is also failing to account for what the Bible's claim actually is. If the Bible claims that the majority would go to Hell, the reasonable thing to do is to ask what the point of Jesus's Sacrifice is.

The point is that there is a fixed number of people that God knows will be saved. They are what He will get to "win" the war. Of course, Jesus died for everybody so that it is not only this number of people that can be saved. Anyone can be saved, if they want to be. But only this number of people actually value God's Salvation enough to stick with the program until the end. And they are the target of Satan's fight. If all these people are saved, this number I spoke of, that is, Satan and the rest of the rebellious angels would have been fully replaced in God's Family and then they will be punished.

To prove that God is willing to save anybody who wants to be saved, even after that full number of human beings have been saved, God will still give human beings time to be saved and an equal number of those who sufficiently replaced Satan and his angels will still be saved. In other words, God's Success is not to be measured by the proportion of human beings saved but by the actual number of those saved. That is the Bible's position. You can tell me what your problem with it is.



Like I said in response to a similar sentiment, we will have to agree to disagree on that.



Asked and answered above.

Religion is a Crime against Humanity.

I forgot this bit since it was in the middle of another argument although it is a completely new argument in its own right:

XxSabrinaxX:

Besides, if an omnipotent God who is all loving wanted to save mankind, why couldn't he just delete the tree of good and evil, or make them eat of the tree of life to save them?

This is a demonstration of true free will. If the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were not in the Garden, Adam and Eve would not have had any opportunity to decide to disobey God. The tree was there to give them that opportunity in fairness.

Free will is why life in this world is possible. We get a real shot at deciding how we want to relate to God without any unnecessary duress. Without the actual options provided, even possession of the ability to choose would be meaningless.

Note also that with the question you asked after making the comment I am here responding to, you essentially repeated the argument you hold that God makes people sin against Him. I will not at the moment pursue the argument that such a notion is nonsensical but I will point out that it seems that for you it is either God should make us all righteous, that is, deny us of any right to choose to be or not to be righteous or else He is responsible for all sin. Yet, you hold that being loving He should not force us to sin.

If He should not force us to sin, why should He force us to be righteous?

We have a true choice. It obviously is not an easy one in this life. But He promised everyone His Help if they want it. We can choose to believe in Him and follow His Truth or we can choose to deny Him and rebel against His Truth.

If this choice is impossible, then why is it actually being made?

You argue that God already fixed every choice so that no one truly makes a choice. I have already answered that argument but I will add here that even if He did, clearly people who are one thing today do turn around and prefer to be something opposite tomorrow. This actually happens. If it does, then why don't you choose to not be an atheist but rather become a Christian? It is, after all, demonstrably possible. Other atheists have become Christians too. Why are you special? I too could choose to become an atheist if I want. After all, other Christians have quit being Christians to become atheists.

This is proof that there is a free will.

If, however, your argument is that since there is a free will, there cannot be a God, then how do you explain the Universe? If you don't care to explain the existence of the Universe without a God to create it, then it is obvious that your argument is no more than a wish that God doesn't actually exist.

Ihedinobi3:

Hell is for all those who reject Christ. Not for those who just do bad things. The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ died for all human sins. So, it is only those who do not accept His Death on their behalf that will go to hell no matter how well they try to live. Those, on the other hand, who accept His Sacrifice will go to be with God no matter how poorly they live their lives although they will lose eternal rewards if they live their lives poorly.

So... no matter how well I live my life, despite all the good deeds I perform, I'm still going to hell. But if someone is immoral in all his/her ways, and consistently does bad deeds, he/she's going to heaven just because he/she believes that a cosmic jewish zombie who was his own father can make you eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree....?
[img]https://media1./images/e1ebecead3c1b9e31bdbc3b0843c31ff/tenor.gif[/img]
Wait.... WHAT?
Am sorry, but HOW.... Just how is this fair in any form? I thought God was supposed to be benevolent and merciful and just. How does this make ANY sense? What's worse is that he didn't offer me any clear evidence of his existence despite the fact that he can do this easily. He's allpowerful, so he doesn't have an excuse. Am sorry but this is garbage. This literally proves my point that God is a malevolent being.

Ihedinobi3:
I commend you for this response. For all your abrasiveness, you can be delightful sometimes. If all you do is state your objections to the Christian Faith, properly accounting for what that Faith actually claims, I for one would only be sad that you are an unbeliever, not angry that you lie and try to swindle weak believers out of their Faith in Christ.

I don't consider myself as someone trying to swindle people away from religion. I became an agnostic when I left secondary school. Since then, the more I try to justify belief in God, the more absurd and contradictory I find christianity as a religion. It didn't really dawn on me how illogical theism was compared to atheism until I graduated college. Even now, I don't really consider myself 100% atheist. My issue with religion is that there are so many of them, and they all make these grand claims about their gods and how they are the true religion. Thus, even if we conclude that a god exists, it's not easy to pin down which religion is correct and which god is the true one. This is why I find deism even more logical than theism. I reject christianity because other than claims, I have seen no convincing testifiable evidence that Yahweh exists. There is no more proof for Yahweh than there is for Allah. It also doesn't help when everyone around you believes in this God and keeps pressuring you to believe in him. So, I've decided that I'll continue to point out the absurdity of these religions, most especially christianity, when I'm challenged and when necessary.

Ihedinobi3:
In response to the above, as I said before:

'You are not far off the mark. Let me quote something I said elsewhere as well:

"Free will is the moral creature's God-given right to choose whether to submit to God or to rebel against Him. But because nothing at all can happen unless God empowers it, our choices were all ordained by God before He even created anything. These choices however were ordained because God knew for certain exactly what each of us want to choose. That is, God knew that Pharaoh, for example, would not want to submit to Him, so He made him so that he would choose not to. For an opposite example, God knew that David would want to be devoted to Him, so He made him so that he would choose to be.

What this means is that free will is a true ability that creatures possess to decide their own eternal fate. God's Own Part is to make those choices possible since He alone can because of both His Omniscience and His Omnipotence."
- https://www.nairaland.com/4944310/gods-omnipotence-contradicts-requirement-free/2#74574900 '

Fair enough. The problem here is that it contradicts God's omnibenevolence. The god of the bible is said to be a merciful god and he can design the universe to achieve ANY combination/permutation of the trillions of trillions of trillions of free will decisions that would be made. So if God is a being that is not only perfectly good and merciful, but also omnipotent, why couldn't he design a universe where no one has to be condemned to suffering in the first place? Is this beyond the power of an omnipotent god to do? Like I've said before, omnipotence is 100% power. Are you saying that God cannot design the world in such a way that sin, cancer, illnesses, natural disasters, evil, unbelief etc don't exist. Is it logically incoherent to make a universe where there's no sorrow or pain? Just positivity? The Bible seems to believe this is possible; I mean it was this same God who created heaven, right?

Ihedinobi3:
This is quite obviously not true. But I can understand the difference in perspective that exists between a militant atheist like yourself and a committed Christian like myself. It would be impossible to reconcile our beliefs about what has been happening between us. So, I won't respond to this. It would not accomplish anything of value if I did.

Ok, but that's the way I saw it. I'm not sure if there's an objective truth as to what really happened here given that we have different views on the subject matter here like you said, so let us indeed agree to disagree.

Ihedinobi3:
I am very happy to give you credit whenever it is due, not that you would believe that to be the case. So, if you had, I would not say that you hadn't.

Ok. Sure. Whatever.

Ihedinobi3:
This position is only possible because you reject free will. I think your case for free will is demonstrably wrong but I understand if you disagree. But we would have to agree to disagree on it. As long as the Bible's position on the existence of creature free will is correct (and I completely believe that it is), this argument is false.

I still maintain that the bible is wrong in the idea that free will can exist in a universe controlled by a tri-omni being. But like you said, let's agree to disagree.

Ihedinobi3:
A sophistry is difficult to refute particularly because of what it implies, that is, what it does not state outright. That was the problem. The way you worked in the opinions of these Christians you spoke of is what made it seem like you were attributing something to the Bible, and, no, you did not state that the Bible said that the majority of human beings will go to Hell. You presented that fact like it was your own independently-discovered truth.

I think your problem is that you assume a lot. Don't get me wrong, I do the same too. But you take my comments and make them to imply something else entirely. It is implied in the bible that not many will see the kingdom of God. The statement the last paragraph in my first post was aimed at the christians I've already described to you. I guess I should have clarified to avoid the confusion.

Ihedinobi3:
As for the case you make with the numbers, you assume that God's Success or failure is measured by the number of people that are saved. That is also failing to account for what the Bible's claim actually is. If the Bible claims that the majority would go to Hell, the reasonable thing to do is to ask what the point of Jesus's Sacrifice is.

The links (is that what you mean by numbers here?) I posted showing the decline of christianity in Europe and the U.S was a response to another user who claimed
"The devil has lost already. Many people are been saved right now........Christianity is dying in your delusion.......... Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".
I just wanted to clear his doubts with actual facts (like I'm sure I should've implied already, I value evidence from other sources more than the bible).

Ihedinobi3:
The point is that there is a fixed number of people that God knows will be saved. They are what He will get to "win" the war. Of course, Jesus died for everybody so that it is not only this number of people that can be saved. Anyone can be saved, if they want to be. But only this number of people actually value God's Salvation enough to stick with the program until the end. And they are the target of Satan's fight. If all these people are saved, this number I spoke of, that is, Satan and the rest of the rebellious angels would have been fully replaced in God's Family and then they will be punished.

Ihedinobi3:
To prove that God is willing to save anybody who wants to be saved, even after that full number of human beings have been saved, God will still give human beings time to be saved and an equal number of those who sufficiently replaced Satan and his angels will still be saved. In other words, God's Success is not to be measured by the proportion of human beings saved but by the actual number of those saved. That is the Bible's position. You can tell me what your problem with it is.

[img]https://media1./images/fdeecab83731ae6967686b3637db3880/tenor.gif[/img]
As I've stated over..... and over.... and over...... and OVER AGAIN...
The problem I have with this is that God had so many options to avoid all these issues in the first place. Keep in mind that he's omnipotent, so these couldn't have been impossible for him.
1. He shouldn't have created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to start with. He knew they'd eat of it and cause a sequence of pain and sin, so he could have just deleted the tree from existence.
2. He could've just killed off the serpent long before it met Eve, or not even have created it in the first place.
3. Being a merciful god, he could've rectified the sin loop immediately by just allowing them eat of the Tree of Life, instead of impulsively kicking them out of Eden mercilessly to go and suffer.
4. Or better yet...... when creating the world at the start, he could've designed the universe to be just like heaven at the very beginning! There's no pain, no sorrow, no sin. Everything is perfect, the way an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient god would've actually designed it.

Ihedinobi3:
Like I said in response to a similar sentiment, we will have to agree to disagree on that.



Asked and answered above.

Let's just end this argument. It's pointless.
Before then, are you a guy or a girl? HellVictorinho kept calling you a "she"?

XxSabrinaxX:

So... no matter how well I live my life, despite all the good deeds I perform, I'm still going to hell. But if someone is immoral in all his/her ways, and consistently does bad deeds, he/she's going to heaven just because he/she believes that a cosmic jewish zombie who was his own father can make you eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree....?
[img]https://media1./images/e1ebecead3c1b9e31bdbc3b0843c31ff/tenor.gif[/img]
Wait.... WHAT?
Am sorry, but HOW.... Just how is this fair in any form? I thought God was supposed to be benevolent and merciful and just. How does this make ANY sense? What's worse is that he didn't offer me any clear evidence of his existence despite the fact that he can do this easily. He's allpowerful, so he doesn't have an excuse. Am sorry but this is garbage. This literally proves my point that God is a malevolent being.


I don't consider myself as someone trying to swindle people away from religion. I became an agnostic when I left secondary school. Since then, the more I try to justify belief in God, the more absurd and contradictory I find christianity as a religion. It didn't really dawn on me how illogical theism was compared to atheism until I graduated college. Even now, I don't really consider myself 100% atheist. My issue with religion is that there are so many of them, and they all make these grand claims about their gods and how they are the true religion. Thus, even if we conclude that a god exists, it's not easy to pin down which religion is correct and which god is the true one. This is why I find deism even more logical than theism. I reject christianity because other than claims, I have seen no convincing testifiable evidence that Yahweh exists. There is no more proof for Yahweh than there is for Allah. It also doesn't help when everyone around you believes in this God and keeps pressuring you to believe in him. So, I've decided that I'll continue to point out the absurdity of these religions, most especially christianity, when I'm challenged and when necessary.


Fair enough. The problem here is that it contradicts God's omnibenevolence. The god of the bible is said to be a merciful god and he can design the universe to achieve ANY combination/permutation of the trillions of trillions of trillions of free will decisions that would be made. So if God is a being that is not only perfectly good and merciful, but also omnipotent, why couldn't he design a universe where no one has to be condemned to suffering in the first place? Is this beyond the power of an omnipotent god to do? Like I've said before, omnipotence is 100% power. Are you saying that God cannot design the world in such a way that sin, cancer, illnesses, natural disasters, evil, unbelief etc don't exist. Is it logically incoherent to make a universe where there's no sorrow or pain? Just positivity? The Bible seems to believe this is possible; I mean it was this same God who created heaven, right?


Ok, but that's the way I saw it. I'm not sure if there's an objective truth as to what really happened here given that we have different views on the subject matter here like you said, so let us indeed agree to disagree.




Ok. Sure. Whatever.




I still maintain that the bible is wrong in the idea that free will can exist in a universe controlled by a tri-omni being. But like you said, let's agree to disagree.




I think your problem is that you assume a lot. Don't get me wrong, I do the same too. But you take my comments and make them to imply something else entirely. It is implied in the bible that not many will see the kingdom of God. The statement the last paragraph in my first post was aimed at the christians I've already described to you. I guess I should have clarified to avoid the confusion.


The links (is that what you mean by numbers here?) I posted showing the decline of christianity in Europe and the U.S was a response to another user who claimed
"The devil has lost already. Many people are been saved right now........Christianity is dying in your delusion.......... Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".
I just wanted to clear his doubts with actual facts (like I'm sure I should've implied already, I value evidence from other sources more than the bible).




[img]https://media1./images/fdeecab83731ae6967686b3637db3880/tenor.gif[/img]
As I've stated over..... and over.... and over...... and OVER AGAIN...
The problem I have with this is that God had so many options to avoid all these issues in the first place. Keep in mind that he's omnipotent, so these couldn't have been impossible for him.
1. He shouldn't have created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to start with. He knew they'd eat of it and cause a sequence of pain and sin, so he could have just deleted the tree from existence.
2. He could've just killed off the serpent long before it met Eve, or not even have created it in the first place.
3. Being a merciful god, he could've rectified the sin loop immediately by just allowing them eat of the Tree of Life, instead of impulsively kicking them out of Eden mercilessly to go and suffer.
4. Or better yet...... when creating the world at the start, he could've designed the universe to be just like heaven at the very beginning! There's no pain, no sorrow, no sin. Everything is perfect, the way an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient god would've actually designed it.





Let's just end this argument. It's pointless.
Before then, are you a guy or a girl? HellVictorinho kept calling you a "she"?

Whether or not she is a 'she',remind her of the FACT that TIME can't be created.
It is a quantity used by MAN to describe observable limits.
But,it can't be limited.
E=KA.

XxSabrinaxX:

Prove it. Prove to me that hell is real without using the bible... i'll wait.

Sometimes I wonder if you christians are naturally this dumb or you have to put in effort.

You have lost it there. I am a believer in God and have accepted Jesus as my saviour and hold on to the eternal words of God which is the Bible.

The issue here is that you and the others who do not believe in the existence of God and hell fire are spiritually dumb, blind and deaf.

Please I say this to you right now, REPENT from your sins and wickedness and it shall be well with your soul.

Be warned, hell fire does exist and you don't need to end up there but Jesus is the ONLY way of escape for you all.

wetin7:


You have lost it there. I am a believer in God and have accepted Jesus as my saviour and hold on to the eternal words of God which is the Bible.

The issue here is that you and the others who do not believe in the existence of God and hell fire are spiritually dumb, blind and deaf.

Please I say this to you right now, REPENT from your sins and wickedness and it shall be well with your soul.

Be warned, hell fire does exist and you don't need to end up there but Jesus is the ONLY way of escape for you all.

Here we go again with the classic "you're going to hell!" rant of clueless christians. What a great sell for your religion: agree with me or perish. Sounds very Islamic of you.
By the way, good job dodging my question. Just shows you have no logical reason to believe in God. Only emotional reasons.

You are a parent, you have a child of 15 years who could distinguish good from evil. You warned your child not to play with fire cause it could burn not just him but the whole house. Despite your warning, you brought fire extinguishers into the house and place them in strategic locations...you knew despite your warnings, your child could make fire his plaything. Then the next day you were not around, someone came in to check up on you but met your absence. your child told him you were not in, but instead of him to leave, he decided to wait and talk to your child. He asked the child what he was doing and why he was not playing like the fire like the rest of his friends. Your child replied playing with fire could be dangerous. your friend told him that's not totally true, he could play with fire but he should just be careful with it. After much deliberation, your kid began to play with fire. Then there was a drop, then another drop. He wanted to reach for the fire extinguisher but your friend told him it won't be necessary just yet, he should play more and after a while, when he gets tired, he could use the extinguisher. your kid said Ok and cont to play.

He forgot himself in the process, playing was fun and mummy was wrong after all.

Then all of a sudden, the fire caught some curtains and it began to spread. it was so fast and quickly went out of control. Your son reached for the fire extinguisher but it was too late.

The question is, are you an irresponsible parent?

folks4luv:
You are a parent, you have a child of 15 years who could distinguish good from evil. You warned your child not to play with fire cause it could burn not just him but the whole house. Despite your warning, you brought fire extinguishers into the house and place them in strategic locations...you knew despite your warnings, your child could make fire his plaything. Then the next day you were not around, someone came in to check up on you but met your absence. your child told him you were not in, but instead of him to leave, he decided to wait and talk to your child. He asked the child what he was doing and why he was not playing like the fire like the rest of his friends. Your child replied playing with fire could be dangerous. your friend told him that's not totally true, he could play with fire but he should just be careful with it. After much deliberation, your kid began to play with fire. Then there was a drop, then another drop. He wanted to reach for the fire extinguisher but your friend told him it won't be necessary just yet, he should play more and after a while, when he gets tired, he could use the extinguisher. your kid said Ok and cont to play.

He forgot himself in the process, playing was fun and mummy was wrong after all.

Then all of a sudden, the fire caught some curtains and it began to spread. it was so fast and quickly went out of control. Your son reached for the fire extinguisher but it was too late.

The question is, are you an irresponsible parent?

You just arrived here so u missed a whole lot. I've addressed this analogy already in my previous posts. If you have the time, go thru them. I'm too lazy right now to start explaining my stance from the beginning.

XxSabrinaxX:

So... no matter how well I live my life, despite all the good deeds I perform, I'm still going to hell. But if someone is immoral in all his/her ways, and consistently does bad deeds, he/she's going to heaven just because he/she believes that a cosmic jewish zombie who was his own father can make you eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree....?
[img]https://media1./images/e1ebecead3c1b9e31bdbc3b0843c31ff/tenor.gif[/img]
Wait.... WHAT?
Am sorry, but HOW.... Just how is this fair in any form? I thought God was supposed to be benevolent and merciful and just. How does this make ANY sense? What's worse is that he didn't offer me any clear evidence of his existence despite the fact that he can do this easily. He's allpowerful, so he doesn't have an excuse. Am sorry but this is garbage. This literally proves my point that God is a malevolent being.

That part I underlined in your argument is a straw man. The Bible teaches nothing like that at all. But perhaps you have some reason for believing that it does? If you do, I'll listen.

You could never be so good that you become perfect. God's Standard is Perfection. This is why nobody's good deeds can save them. We may be better than one another but nobody in the human race is good enough for God...except the Lord Jesus Who is God, the Second Person of The Trinity, Who became a Man to die for the everybody's sins and by so doing make it possible for anyone who wants it to be presentable to God as a perfect human being just like the Lord Jesus Who died for them.

That is, it is only Jesus's qualifications that matter now. He is the Only Perfect Human and the One Who satisfied all of God's Demands of humanity. So, Salvation is only possible to those who accept His Merits or credits.

Also, if anyone does accept His Merits and is thus saved but then goes back to consistently sinning, they soon find that they will be forced to choose between continuing to believe in Jesus Christ and continuing to sin. If they refuse to make a choice one way or another long enough, God begins a discipline called the sin unto death which essentially means that the person begins to suffer terribly - in the Bible, it is always ill health - until they die. They are still saved but such people have no rewards of import to gain for their time on earth. God always disciplines sin. And no Christian ever enjoys the discipline.

As for Who Jesus is. God is One Being, yes, but in Three Distinct Persons. The Father is One. The Word Who later became the Son also known as Jesus Christ is Another. The Holy Spirit is yet Another. It may seem incredulous, but God is of necessity different from Creation so it is not weird that He should exist in a way that simply leaves us confused. He is not like us at all.

It was The Word Who had a body created for Him and Who sacrificed Himself on the Cross to appease the Father for the sins of all human beings who have ever lived or will ever live. This is a completely different picture than the one you painted.

As for the Tree, it was not magical. It was real. When we eat anything, it becomes a part of us, doesn't it? It may be that the trees in the Garden were more powerful than the trees that exist today but they were still trees just like these ones. They only had a sort of spiritual component to their offerings. That should not be hard to believe seeing as the Bible teaches that man is also a spirit living in a physical body.

Talking snake. I'm not sure why this is a problem. If God can make a universe this complex and incredibly beautiful, why would a talking snake be an issue?

Rib-woman. Don't know what this is supposed to be saying, but the reason Eve was made from Adam was to create that connection that human beings crave for one another. She could easily have been made from the dust just like Adam but then would they be as closely connected as people desire to be with each other (especially those in love)?

Evidence for God. If God were to manifest Himself in His Full Glory, you would not only believe. You would also fall on your face and worship Him whether you like it or not. Free will would be destroyed by that display. God is an undeniable reality. He cannot be denied. But He graciously granted us a shield from His Full Glory so that we have a real choice between submitting to Him willingly and rebelling against Him. He does not demand that we must all submit. He offers it as an option with a reward attached. And He makes the opposite option as frightening and undesirable as possible while allowing us the real ability to completely disregard both incentive and threat and do exactly whatever we prefer to do. That is true free will.

XxSabrinaxX:
I don't consider myself as someone trying to swindle people away from religion. I became an agnostic when I left secondary school. Since then, the more I try to justify belief in God, the more absurd and contradictory I find christianity as a religion. It didn't really dawn on me how illogical theism was compared to atheism until I graduated college. Even now, I don't really consider myself 100% atheist. My issue with religion is that there are so many of them, and they all make these grand claims about their gods and how they are the true religion. Thus, even if we conclude that a god exists, it's not easy to pin down which religion is correct and which god is the true one. This is why I find deism even more logical than theism. I reject christianity because other than claims, I have seen no convincing testifiable evidence that Yahweh exists. There is no more proof for Yahweh than there is for Allah. It also doesn't help when everyone around you believes in this God and keeps pressuring you to believe in him. So, I've decided that I'll continue to point out the absurdity of these religions, most especially christianity, when I'm challenged and when necessary.

I'm not sure how you define "necessary" but nobody challenged you personally here. If you take a look at my profile, you will find three threads only. The most recent was put up targeting Christians in order to protect them from challengers of their faith. All my activity in apologetics has been defense. There is always some atheist who wants to save Christians from their stupidity and I find that they lie a great deal about what the Bible actually teaches. Some are particularly dangerous because they are smart or can quote parts of the Bible or are not shy of bullying other people with Internet violence. I don't like to stand by and let them do what damage they can. That is when it is necessary for me to step in and fight. But I don't see what makes your own activity here necessary at all. Rather, it is actually harassment.

Now, I do sympathize with you but I don't share your experience. I've never been one to run from an intellectual or spiritual fight. So, I didn't run from religion when I realized what a mess it was. But I certainly wanted to figure out what the Truth really was. And it was a costly experience doing so. It IS a mess. But the Truth is worth asking the questions, challenging everything but with a heart willing to listen and seriously consider the answers you hear. That last part is what most people who DO question don't have. Many people I know including pretty much every apostate from Christianity that I have met are only interested in making up their own truth, not in any true discovery.

Whether Christianity is true or not is something anyone can tell if they really want to know the Truth. There may be any number of intellectual arguments to prove it but the only way to know for sure is entirely spiritual. But if we don't like the Truth and have a preference for what it should be, then we will look for excuses to reject it.

XxSabrinaxX:
Fair enough. The problem here is that it contradicts God's omnibenevolence. The god of the bible is said to be a merciful god and he can design the universe to achieve ANY combination/permutation of the trillions of trillions of trillions of free will decisions that would be made. So if God is a being that is not only perfectly good and merciful, but also omnipotent, why couldn't he design a universe where no one has to be condemned to suffering in the first place? Is this beyond the power of an omnipotent god to do? Like I've said before, omnipotence is 100% power. Are you saying that God cannot design the world in such a way that sin, cancer, illnesses, natural disasters, evil, unbelief etc don't exist. Is it logically incoherent to make a universe where there's no sorrow or pain? Just positivity? The Bible seems to believe this is possible; I mean it was this same God who created heaven, right?

I have no idea what it is like to be God so I will not pretend to know more than He Himself says in the Bible (I know that you don't believe in the Bible but humor me). Anything is possible for God. So He could create anything He wants.

But He created this universe. This universe. Not any other hypothetical one. In this one, He gave some of His Creatures free will. This is because He wanted those Creatures to make a choice about Him. That would decide what Eternity would look like. So, first the angels had to choose. Then, it was man. These creature choices had to be genuine so God was going to tolerate much that was not His Desire for His Creation. If He didn't, then He would not gain the Eternity He had planned. That is why there has been evil.

As I said, nothing is impossible for God. But I couldn't possibly tell you why He made this creation the way He did except that He wanted to. If that is not a good enough answer, then you may be qualified to be God yourself.

XxSabrinaxX:
I think your problem is that you assume a lot. Don't get me wrong, I do the same too. But you take my comments and make them to imply something else entirely. It is implied in the bible that not many will see the kingdom of God. The statement the last paragraph in my first post was aimed at the christians I've already described to you. I guess I should have clarified to avoid the confusion.

Christian apologetics is a spiritual gift. But it is also a gift that must be developed. I have that gift and I have been training for a while now. So while I do make assumptions, I've been doing this long enough to not make many unwarranted ones. What I described to you were inferences. Inferences can be proved wrong. Assumptions are harder to deal with.

Also, it is not implied in the Bible. It is stated outright that few comparatively will be saved.

XxSabrinaxX:
The links (is that what you mean by numbers here?) I posted showing the decline of christianity in Europe and the U.S was a response to another user who claimed
"The devil has lost already. Many people are been saved right now........Christianity is dying in your delusion.......... Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".
I just wanted to clear his doubts with actual facts (like I'm sure I should've implied already, I value evidence from other sources more than the bible).

Sorry, I was probably the one unclear there. I was not referring to any links. I was referring to your argument about majority of people going to Hell.

XxSabrinaxX:
[img]https://media1./images/fdeecab83731ae6967686b3637db3880/tenor.gif[/img]
As I've stated over..... and over.... and over...... and OVER AGAIN...
The problem I have with this is that God had so many options to avoid all these issues in the first place. Keep in mind that he's omnipotent, so these couldn't have been impossible for him.
1. He shouldn't have created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to start with. He knew they'd eat of it and cause a sequence of pain and sin, so he could have just deleted the tree from existence.
2. He could've just killed off the serpent long before it met Eve, or not even have created it in the first place.
3. Being a merciful god, he could've rectified the sin loop immediately by just allowing them eat of the Tree of Life, instead of impulsively kicking them out of Eden mercilessly to go and suffer.
4. Or better yet...... when creating the world at the start, he could've designed the universe to be just like heaven at the very beginning! There's no pain, no sorrow, no sin. Everything is perfect, the way an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient god would've actually designed it.

1. Without the Tree, Adam and Eve wouldn't have been able to choose.

2. The snake was another one of His Creatures. He loves all of them.

3. If God didn't kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden, the problem of sin would never have been solved because they would have continued eating from the Tree of Life and thus made it impossible to save them from the damage in their bodies.

4. The first creation was just like that until Satan sinned. There was absolutely nothing wrong. It was absolutely perfect. Not even darkness existed then. Once Satan sinned, however, everything started to go sideways.

Again, remember, creature free will is critical to God's Eternal Plan. Without both the ability to choose and the opportunity, the Eternity that God planned would not be possible.

XxSabrinaxX:
Let's just end this argument. It's pointless.
Before then, are you a guy or a girl? HellVictorinho kept calling you a "she"?

I don't believe that it is. But I'll respect your wish to end it here.

I can't vouch for anything HellVictorinho says. I am a man.

Ihedinobi3:

That part I underlined in your argument is a straw man. The Bible teaches nothing like that at all. But perhaps you have some reason for believing that it does? If you do, I'll listen.

You could never be so good that you become perfect. God's Standard is Perfection. This is why nobody's good deeds can save them. We may be better than one another but nobody in the human race is good enough for God...except the Lord Jesus Who is God, the Second Person of The Trinity, Who became a Man to die for the everybody's sins and by so doing make it possible for anyone who wants it to be presentable to God as a perfect human being just like the Lord Jesus Who died for them.

That is, it is only Jesus's qualifications that matter now. He is the Only Perfect Human and the One Who satisfied all of God's Demands of humanity. So, Salvation is only possible to those who accept His Merits or credits.

Also, if anyone does accept His Merits and is thus saved but then goes back to consistently sinning, they soon find that they will be forced to choose between continuing to believe in Jesus Christ and continuing to sin. If they refuse to make a choice one way or another long enough, God begins a discipline called the sin unto death which essentially means that the person begins to suffer terribly - in the Bible, it is always ill health - until they die. They are still saved but such people have no rewards of import to gain for their time on earth. God always disciplines sin. And no Christian ever enjoys the discipline.

As for Who Jesus is. God is One Being, yes, but in Three Distinct Persons. The Father is One. The Word Who later became the Son also known as Jesus Christ is Another. The Holy Spirit is yet Another. It may seem incredulous, but God is of necessity different from Creation so it is not weird that He should exist in a way that simply leaves us confused. He is not like us at all.

It was The Word Who had a body created for Him and Who sacrificed Himself on the Cross to appease the Father for the sins of all human beings who have ever lived or will ever live. This is a completely different picture than the one you painted.

As for the Tree, it was not magical. It was real. When we eat anything, it becomes a part of us, doesn't it? It may be that the trees in the Garden were more powerful than the trees that exist today but they were still trees just like these ones. They only had a sort of spiritual component to their offerings. That should not be hard to believe seeing as the Bible teaches that man is also a spirit living in a physical body.

Talking snake. I'm not sure why this is a problem. If God can make a universe this complex and incredibly beautiful, why would a talking snake be an issue?

Rib-woman. Don't know what this is supposed to be saying, but the reason Eve was made from Adam was to create that connection that human beings crave for one another. She could easily have been made from the dust just like Adam but then would they be as closely connected as people desire to be with each other (especially those in love)?

Evidence for God. If God were to manifest Himself in His Full Glory, you would not only believe. You would also fall on your face and worship Him whether you like it or not. Free will would be destroyed by that display. God is an undeniable reality. He cannot be denied. But He graciously granted us a shield from His Full Glory so that we have a real choice between submitting to Him willingly and rebelling against Him. He does not demand that we must all submit. He offers it as an option with a reward attached. And He makes the opposite option as frightening and undesirable as possible while allowing us the real ability to completely disregard both incentive and threat and do exactly whatever we prefer to do. That is true free will.



I'm not sure how you define "necessary" but nobody challenged you personally here. If you take a look at my profile, you will find three threads only. The most recent was put up targeting Christians in order to protect them from challengers of their faith. All my activity in apologetics has been defense. There is always some atheist who wants to save Christians from their stupidity and I find that they lie a great deal about what the Bible actually teaches. Some are particularly dangerous because they are smart or can quote parts of the Bible or are not shy of bullying other people with Internet violence. I don't like to stand by and let them do what damage they can. That is when it is necessary for me to step in and fight. But I don't see what makes your own activity here necessary at all. Rather, it is actually harassment.

Now, I do sympathize with you. I don't share your experience. I've never been one to run from an intellectual or spiritual fight. So, I didn't run from religion when I realized what a mess it was. But I certainly wanted to figure out what the Truth really was. And it was a costly experience doing so. It IS a mess. But the Truth is worth asking the questions, challenging everything but with a heart willing to listen and seriously consider the answers you hear. That last part is what most people who DO question don't have. Many people I know including pretty much every apostate from Christianity that I have met is only interested in making up their own truth, not in any true discovery.

Whether Christianity is true or not is something anyone can tell if they really want to know the Truth. There may be any number of intellectual arguments to prove it but the only way to know for sure is entirely spiritual. But if we don't like the Truth and have a preference for what it should be, then we will look for excuses to reject it.



I have no idea what it is like to be God so I will not pretend to tell you more than He Himself says in the Bible (I know that you don't believe in the Bible, so humor me). Anything is possible for God. So He could create anything He wants.

But He created this universe. This universe. Not any other hypothetical one. In this one, He gave some of His Creatures free will. This is because He wanted those Creatures to make a choice about Him. That would decide what Eternity would look like. So, first the angels had to choose. Then, it was man. These creature choices had to be genuine so God was going to tolerate much that was not His Desire for His Creation. If He didn't, then He would not gain the Eternity He had planned. That is why there has been evil.

As I said, nothing is impossible for God. But I couldn't possibly tell you why He made this creation the way He did except that He wanted to. If that is not a good enough answer, then you may be qualified to be God yourself.

In as much as I'm still unconvinced by your points, I'll agree to disagree. There are some things I still find faulty about the God (christian god) hypothesis, but I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite by going back to argue when I've already asked to drop the discussion. Maybe we can continue the argument in another thread later.

XxSabrinaxX:

In as much as I'm still unconvinced by your points, I'll agree to disagree. There are some things I still find faulty about the God (christian god) hypothesis, but I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite by going back to argue when I've already asked to drop the discussion. Maybe we can continue the argument in another thread later.

Sure. In the end, it was a pleasure discussing with you.

Ihedinobi3:

That part I underlined in your argument is a straw man. The Bible teaches nothing like that at all. But perhaps you have some reason for believing that it does? If you do, I'll listen.

You could never be so good that you become perfect. God's Standard is Perfection. This is why nobody's good deeds can save them. We may be better than one another but nobody in the human race is good enough for God...except the Lord Jesus Who is God, the Second Person of The Trinity, Who became a Man to die for the everybody's sins and by so doing make it possible for anyone who wants it to be presentable to God as a perfect human being just like the Lord Jesus Who died for them.

That is, it is only Jesus's qualifications that matter now. He is the Only Perfect Human and the One Who satisfied all of God's Demands of humanity. So, Salvation is only possible to those who accept His Merits or credits.

Also, if anyone does accept His Merits and is thus saved but then goes back to consistently sinning, they soon find that they will be forced to choose between continuing to believe in Jesus Christ and continuing to sin. If they refuse to make a choice one way or another long enough, God begins a discipline called the sin unto death which essentially means that the person begins to suffer terribly - in the Bible, it is always ill health - until they die. They are still saved but such people have no rewards of import to gain for their time on earth. God always disciplines sin. And no Christian ever enjoys the discipline.

As for Who Jesus is. God is One Being, yes, but in Three Distinct Persons. The Father is One. The Word Who later became the Son also known as Jesus Christ is Another. The Holy Spirit is yet Another. It may seem incredulous, but God is of necessity different from Creation so it is not weird that He should exist in a way that simply leaves us confused. He is not like us at all.

It was The Word Who had a body created for Him and Who sacrificed Himself on the Cross to appease the Father for the sins of all human beings who have ever lived or will ever live. This is a completely different picture than the one you painted.

As for the Tree, it was not magical. It was real. When we eat anything, it becomes a part of us, doesn't it? It may be that the trees in the Garden were more powerful than the trees that exist today but they were still trees just like these ones. They only had a sort of spiritual component to their offerings. That should not be hard to believe seeing as the Bible teaches that man is also a spirit living in a physical body.

Talking snake. I'm not sure why this is a problem. If God can make a universe this complex and incredibly beautiful, why would a talking snake be an issue?

Rib-woman. Don't know what this is supposed to be saying, but the reason Eve was made from Adam was to create that connection that human beings crave for one another. She could easily have been made from the dust just like Adam but then would they be as closely connected as people desire to be with each other (especially those in love)?

Evidence for God. If God were to manifest Himself in His Full Glory, you would not only believe. You would also fall on your face and worship Him whether you like it or not. Free will would be destroyed by that display. God is an undeniable reality. He cannot be denied. But He graciously granted us a shield from His Full Glory so that we have a real choice between submitting to Him willingly and rebelling against Him. He does not demand that we must all submit. He offers it as an option with a reward attached. And He makes the opposite option as frightening and undesirable as possible while allowing us the real ability to completely disregard both incentive and threat and do exactly whatever we prefer to do. That is true free will.



I'm not sure how you define "necessary" but nobody challenged you personally here. If you take a look at my profile, you will find three threads only. The most recent was put up targeting Christians in order to protect them from challengers of their faith. All my activity in apologetics has been defense. There is always some atheist who wants to save Christians from their stupidity and I find that they lie a great deal about what the Bible actually teaches. Some are particularly dangerous because they are smart or can quote parts of the Bible or are not shy of bullying other people with Internet violence. I don't like to stand by and let them do what damage they can. That is when it is necessary for me to step in and fight. But I don't see what makes your own activity here necessary at all. Rather, it is actually harassment.

Now, I do sympathize with you. I don't share your experience. I've never been one to run from an intellectual or spiritual fight. So, I didn't run from religion when I realized what a mess it was. But I certainly wanted to figure out what the Truth really was. And it was a costly experience doing so. It IS a mess. But the Truth is worth asking the questions, challenging everything but with a heart willing to listen and seriously consider the answers you hear. That last part is what most people who DO question don't have. Many people I know including pretty much every apostate from Christianity that I have met is only interested in making up their own truth, not in any true discovery.

Whether Christianity is true or not is something anyone can tell if they really want to know the Truth. There may be any number of intellectual arguments to prove it but the only way to know for sure is entirely spiritual. But if we don't like the Truth and have a preference for what it should be, then we will look for excuses to reject it.



I have no idea what it is like to be God so I will not pretend to tell you more than He Himself says in the Bible (I know that you don't believe in the Bible, so humor me). Anything is possible for God. So He could create anything He wants.

But He created this universe. This universe. Not any other hypothetical one. In this one, He gave some of His Creatures free will. This is because He wanted those Creatures to make a choice about Him. That would decide what Eternity would look like. So, first the angels had to choose. Then, it was man. These creature choices had to be genuine so God was going to tolerate much that was not His Desire for His Creation. If He didn't, then He would not gain the Eternity He had planned. That is why there has been evil.

As I said, nothing is impossible for God. But I couldn't possibly tell you why He made this creation the way He did except that He wanted to. If that is not a good enough answer, then you may be qualified to be God yourself.

You don't have to mention me in reply to XxSabrinaxX like that.
I didn't know you're dude.
But it's all good.
And you don't have to vouch.

folks4luv:
You are a parent, you have a child of 15 years who could distinguish good from evil. You warned your child not to play with fire cause it could burn not just him but the whole house. Despite your warning, you brought fire extinguishers into the house and place them in strategic locations...you knew despite your warnings, your child could make fire his plaything. Then the next day you were not around, someone came in to check up on you but met your absence. your child told him you were not in, but instead of him to leave, he decided to wait and talk to your child. He asked the child what he was doing and why he was not playing like the fire like the rest of his friends. Your child replied playing with fire could be dangerous. your friend told him that's not totally true, he could play with fire but he should just be careful with it. After much deliberation, your kid began to play with fire. Then there was a drop, then another drop. He wanted to reach for the fire extinguisher but your friend told him it won't be necessary just yet, he should play more and after a while, when he gets tired, he could use the extinguisher. your kid said Ok and cont to play.

He forgot himself in the process, playing was fun and mummy was wrong after all.

Then all of a sudden, the fire caught some curtains and it began to spread. it was so fast and quickly went out of control. Your son reached for the fire extinguisher but it was too late.

The question is, are you an irresponsible parent?

If this analogue is to establish the existence of God's omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient nature in relation to freewill then it has failed woefully
Christians depicts god as a supreme all knowing entity, using this clueless parent analogue there is no where all this quality was shown in your fiction.
God would've seen his friend coming over and would've prevented it from inception. There is no how the three God qualities can coexist with freewill.

XxSabrinaxX:

Here we go again with the classic "you're going to hell!" rant of clueless christians. What a great sell for your religion: agree with me or perish. Sounds very Islamic of you.
By the way, good job dodging my question. Just shows you have no logical reason to believe in God. Only emotional reasons.

What question did I dodge?

In case you don't get it, I am a follower of Christ Jesus and a believer in God. My guide is God's words which is the Bible.

My appeal to you is from the Bible and not outside of it. Repent now so that you will be saved from going to hell fire.

If you die in this terrible state you have put yourself (God forbid) then be rest assured that you will suffer and burn in the unquenchable fire for eternity.

And when that happens, it will be too late for you to amend your ways. By then all your display of foolishness and ignorance will be regretted by you.

My brother stop this madness now I beg of you and Repent now.

wetin7:


What question did I dodge?

In case you don't get it, I am a follower of Christ Jesus and a believer in God. My guide is God's words which is the Bible.

My appeal to you is from the Bible and not outside of it. Repent now so that you will be saved from going to hell fire.

If you die in this terrible state you have put yourself (God forbid) then be rest assured that you will suffer and burn in the unquenchable fire for eternity.

And when that happens, it will be too late for you to amend your ways. By then all your display of foolishness and ignorance will be regretted by you.

My brother stop this madness now I beg of you and Repent now.

You're garbage
[img]https://media1./images/88d4563fade8223ce5ce3fbbb68bf500/tenor.gif[/img]

XxSabrinaxX:
This is my first thread on NL. I've noticed how passionate people on these religion forums are when matters like these are brought. So i just felt like i should try my hand at debating on NL.

Hell is a horrible idea. If God truly thinks that our “freewill” based on a limited time on earth means most of us have to live in a “hell” forever, then
yes, he’s evil, and terribly insane. However, i also want to add that if hell actually exists, then the cold truth is that ultimately, most of the human race is going there. Some Christians like to downplay this. It’s an undeniable fact if we applied Christian theology, there's really no debate.
This not only makes God evil, but portrays Satan as a smarter, more efficient presence amongst man, resulting in Satan winning his purpose over Jesus.
Jesus came to earth to save mankind. Judging by the kind of lives we live, i think its safe to say that God has been highly incompetent in making man see the truth.

Hi Sabrina, would you like a private session with me to discuss these over a long conversation?

XxSabrinaxX:

You're garbage
[img]https://media1./images/88d4563fade8223ce5ce3fbbb68bf500/tenor.gif[/img]

Don't be silly my dear friend. The clock is ticking away real fast and you don't have much time left, tomorrow may be too late for your poor soul.

Why do you want to end up in hell fire. It will be a wise decision on your part to repent this morning and let Jesus save your soul from the part of destruction you have already headed.

Take the wise step now by giving your life to Christ so that you can make heaven at last.

wetin7:


Don't be silly my dear friend. The clock is ticking away real fast and you don't have much time left, tomorrow may be too late for your poor soul.

Why do you want to end up in hell fire. It will be a wise decision on your part to repent this morning and let Jesus save your soul from the part of destruction you have already headed.

Take the wise step now by giving your life to Christ so that you can make heaven at last.

...You're still garbage
[img]https://media1./images/88d4563fade8223ce5ce3fbbb68bf500/tenor.gif[/img]

wetin7:


Don't be silly my dear friend. The clock is ticking away real fast and you don't have much time left, tomorrow may be too late for your poor soul.

Why do you want to end up in hell fire. It will be a wise decision on your part to repent this morning and let Jesus save your soul from the part of destruction you have already headed.

Take the wise step now by giving your life to Christ so that you can make heaven at last.

There is no HELL FIRE. Obviously without HELL FIRE your religion is DEAD.

If truly Jesus is LOVE ( haha ), why does it require a HELL to bring people into the kingdom.

No matter how much you scream HELL FIRE does not make it true. It has been debunked again and again and again.

And if your God will indeed send people to an eternal place of torture, he does not deserve to be worshipped, NOW or EVER.

Get over it.

frosbel2:


There is no HELL FIRE. Obviously without HELL FIRE your religion is DEAD.

If truly Jesus is LOVE ( haha ), why does it require a HELL to bring people into the kingdom.

No matter how much you scream HELL FIRE does not make it true. It has been debunked again and again and again.

And if your God will indeed send people to an eternal place of torture, he does not deserve to be worshipped, NOW or EVER.

Get over it.

" And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
(Revelation 20: 15)

You are deceiving yourself.

A married woman who is stubborn, adulterous, lair and a theif says to her husband... "Love me for who I am... "

You don't claim God's love in sin....

Repent and be saved.
.
Continue in sin and go to hell.

Simple as ABC

Originakalokalo:



" And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
(Revelation 20: 15)

You are deceiving yourself.

A married woman who is stubborn, adulterous, lair and a theif says to her husband... "Love me for who I am... "

You don't claim God's love in sin....

Repent and be saved.
.
Continue in sin and go to hell.

Simple as ABC

Oh please

Just note that the tool of FEAR does not work on me, I have been a Christian for longer than you, read the bible more than you, studied the scriptures from a scholarly perspective and come to the conclusion that your interpretation of scripture is childish and nonsensical.

Forget about HELL - be happy

frosbel2:


Oh please

Just note that the tool of FEAR does not work on me, I have been a Christian for longer than you, read the bible more than you, studied the scriptures from a scholarly perspective and come to the conclusion that your interpretation of scripture is childish and nonsensical.

Forget about HELL - be happy

You read the bible more than me? And you know the bible more than me?...

That's a joke.

Ha!!. What a Joke!!!

You don't know anything about the scripture...

I don't need to argue with you about that...

If you know the bible, you will know that the presence of God cannot condone sin.....

A sinner who died cannot go to where he lives... Which is heaven...

He is rejected and thrown in hell.

Continue in your sin and unbelieve...


Tick..... Tuck, your time is ticking.


(Luke 13 )
------------
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Originakalokalo:


You read the bible more than me? And you know the bible more than me?...

That's a joke.

Ha!!. What a Joke!!!

You don't know anything about the scripture...

I don't need to argue with you about that...

If you know the bible, you will know that the presence of God cannot condone sin.....

A sinner who died cannot go to where he lives... Which is heaven...

He is rejected and thrown in hell.

Continue in your sin and unbelieve...


Tick..... Tuck, your time is ticking.


(Luke 13 )
------------
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Lol. Luke 13 is a fairy tale based on Greek Mythology. You have been hoodwinked with Churchianity nonsense.

And yes, I know the bible more than you -

XxSabrinaxX:

...You're still garbage
[img]https://media1./images/88d4563fade8223ce5ce3fbbb68bf500/tenor.gif[/img]

Anyone who not does repent of his sins and accept Jesus as his saviour will end up as garbage.

My dear friend, at the moment you are the real garbage here and if you fail to do the needful and repent you will end up in hell fire.

God wants you to be with him in heaven. Give your life to Jesus now.

wetin7:


Anyone who not does repent of his sins and accept Jesus as his saviour will end up as garbage.

My dear friend, at the moment you are the real garbage here and if you fail to do the needful and repent you will end up in hell fire.

God wants you to be with him in heaven. Give your life to Jesus now.

Why do real humans want to give their lives to fictitious imaginary Jesus? Life could be funny sha.