"

When you observe the sun at these times (after converting it to your local time), you will be facing the Kaaba giving you Qibla direction, because if there were a very high minaret over Kaaba reaching up to the sky, then you will see it just like you are seeing the sun. "

" Now, let us take a few examples. If you are in Islamabad, Pakistan (+5 hours time difference from Greenwich), the local time to observe the sun would be 2:18pm on May 28, and 2:27pm on July 16. Similarly, if you are in Nova Scotia, Canada (-3 hours time difference from Greenwich), the local time to observe the sun would be 6:18am on May 28, and 6:27am on July 16"

"  If you are at a location that you cannot see the sun on the above mentioned two dates, then you can locate Qibla from the sun when it comes overhead at a point diametrically opposite of Makkah on the globe and look for the following two dates and times:

November 28 at 21:09UT
January 16 at 21:29UT

Face toward the shadow from the sun at these times (after converting it to local time) and you will be facing Kaaba. If you can see the sun but cannot see the shadow, put your back towards the sun and your face will be towards Qibla. "

I hope everybody on the thread can check out the above facts that have been proved over the ages. The rising and setting of the sun cannot be manipulated at least for now by humans. It is the work of the Creator of every being.

All these gyrations just to say a simple prayer.
I hope allah is magnanimous enough to allow room for error.
I wonder how the "not so smart" and the visually impared muslims cope
with all this "astrological tomankasa" prior to spreading out their mats.
I tire.The Muslims in Alaska with only one hour of sunlight in some winters are doomed,their prayers are frozen somewhere on the mountains.

Christ hears even your depeest thoughts,you can kneel or stand wherever even stark naked in a shower,he still hears your prayers.
He is not limited by the sun or moon or directions,he created them and they are subject to him.
He calls observing the sun idolatory.

nuru:

The original question on the thread is " Why do Muslims face the East when praying".

Its been explained in previous postings that the Muslims do not face east when "praying". Rather Muslims face the Qiblah when observing the "canonical worship" called salat. Salat is compulsory five times in a day for a "typical" Muslim . There other practices that Muslims engage in that are roughly translated to prayer in English. These include supplication(duai), Reflections(Adhkar), etc. Muslims are not enjoined to face the Qiblah during those other acts.

From above, the question can then be rephrased as " Why do Muslims face the Qiblah when performing salat" . The simple answer is that it is a commandment of God and true believers will obey God first of all before looking for comprehensible reasons for the commandment.

This is a treatise in confusion. To claim that muslims face the qiblah rather than an ambigous eastern direction when praying is to play the ostrich by trying to circumvent the fact that millions of muslims face east when in actual fact east is NOT the same direction for everyone across the globe.

pls pls pls,
let us leave d issue of religion

totalfact:

please please please,
let us leave d issue of religion

welcome to the Association of Ostrich playing Advocates of Political Correctness (AOAPC)

God created the world and all in it. Observing different aspects of nature as commanded by God for the purpose of worship is not idolatry. What is idolatry. It is to ascribe and to believe and to act upon such believe that there is another diety worthy of worship beside or alongside your creator. That is idolatry. Muslims believe in God, the One and Only Creator of the entire universe. So what is so special about the Kaaba. What is special about it is that God commanded believers to face it when observing salat. How was the commandment communicated. Of course it is through the Quran revealed to the most noble of mankind, Muhammad the son of Abdullah, the Prophet of God.(Salla lau alaehi wa salam)

Will Christ know what you say in your heart. No

Will God know what you say in your heart. Yes

Why is that. Because God is your Creator and Jesus is not.

But Jesus is special. Yes, to the extent that he is a Spirit of God

But cant Spirit of God be God. No, they are different. One is the Origin, the other is subservient to Him

But this issue of Qiblah. Yes, facing it for salat is only symbolic. All mankind must focus on God, that is the lesson

Why is it in Makkah. To get an answer, you must first answer this '' why is River Niger in Nigeria, why does the tide rise and fall, why must the earth orbit the sun, why must man live and die. A lot of whys. that you may not be able to answer.

So, if the Lord of Wisdom says face a particular place for salat, who are you to dispute it.

Another long sobbing attempt to circumvent logical reasoning from a member of the Qiblah solidarity movement

nuru:

God created the world and all in it. Observing different aspects of nature as commanded by God for the purpose of worship is not idolatry.

Bowing down and paying obeisance to a stone 5 times a day for 70 years is not synonymous with "observing different aspects of nature as commanded by god".

nuru:

What is idolatry. It is to ascribe and to believe and to act upon such believe that there is another diety worthy of worship beside or alongside your creator. That is idolatry.

Idolatry is precisely what muslims engage in when they bow down to a stone while decieving themselves that they are praying to a god. To pretend otherwise is to stand logic on its head.

nuru:

So what is so special about the Kaaba. What is special about it is that God commanded believers to face it when observing salat.

Why did god command "believers" to face the qiblah during prayer if it is merely a way of "observing different aspects of nature"? What is so important about this "aspect of nature"?

nuru:

Will Christ know what you say in your heart. No
Will God know what you say in your heart. Yes

Why is that. Because God is your Creator and Jesus is not.

But Jesus is special. Yes, to the extent that he is a Spirit of God

But can't Spirit of God be God. No, they are different. One is the Origin, the other is subservient to Him

Merely recycling the unsubstantiated lies of a fraud of a prophet! It is impossible to talk so authoritatively about a figure you know next to nothing about.

nuru:

But this issue of Qiblah. Yes, facing it for salat is only symbolic. All mankind must focus on God, that is the lesson

If facing the qiblah is merely symbolic then why is it a commandment? It is laughable to talk of "focus" on god when you spend ALL your prayer time devoted to bowing down before a sacred stone.
Talk about serving two masters.

nuru:

Why is it in Makkah. To get an answer, you must first answer this '' why is River Niger in Nigeria, why does the tide rise and fall, why must the earth orbit the sun, why must man live and die. A lot of whys. that you may not be able to answer.

This defies logic. Is the qiblah a river, star or satellite? Nay, it is but a stone and its presence in makkah is very simple . . . it once was the object of idol worship by makkans who initially placed it there long before mohammed came with death, destruction and deception.

nuru:

So, if the Lord of Wisdom says face a particular place for salat, who are you to dispute it.

A cursory look at the quran seems to defeat the attribute of allah as the lord of wisdom. Where was his famed wisdom when his prophet boldly declared that the earth was flat with mountains sitting on it as tent pegs?
Where was this almighty "wisdom" when he claimed you were formed from a bloodclot? Is his "wisdom" not putting you to shame with his shambolic claims on embryology which was obviously plagiarised from the works of early non-muslim scholars?

Where was this wisdom when mohammed saw qatada's iris fall down his cheek?

davidylan,tellyb,babyosisi,gwaine,mr pataki all other soldiers of Christ on nairaland,i want to thank you all not only for sharing your knowledge with us and for DEFLATING ALL THE LIES members of the OPPOSING TEAM posted on this thread,but also for being TRUE SOLDIERS OF CHRIST,my God continue to enrich your knowledge,bless and protect u,you guys made me to be proud of being a christain,may heaven be OURS IN Jesus name{AMEN}

totalfact:

please please please,
let us leave d issue of religion

We wont that,s the reason why we are here on this thread,if the kitchen is 2 hot for you 2 stay or the issue is 2 hot for you 2 handle,pls get the hell out of here,ok?

@nuru,

nuru:

The original question on the thread is " Why do Muslims face the East when praying".

Its been explained in previous postings that the Muslims do not face east when "praying". Rather Muslims face the Qiblah when observing the "canonical worship" called salat.

I have a couple of questions for you with regards to your post:

# Where do Muslims themselves get the idea that they face the EAST when praying?

# Are there verses in the Qur'an and Hadiths stipulating the direction Muslims face for
salat?

# What was the main reason why Muhammad was first facing Jerusalem in his prayers?

# What was the main reason why Muhammad turned from Jerusalem to the Kaa'ba?

# Why was the prayer direction not first towards the Kaa'ba but rather towards Jerusalem?

There are so many questions that keep popping up with responses like yours, because they either deliberately ignore the very issues that many Muslims have been pushing across board; or else such responses are made in compromisive stances of what has been debunked.

nuru:

Salat is compulsory five times in a day for a "typical" Muslim . There other practices that Muslims engage in that are roughly translated to prayer in English. These include supplication(duai), Reflections(Adhkar), etc. Muslims are not enjoined to face the Qiblah during those other acts.

Perhaps, you might agree with most of us that supplications involves "prayer" in some measure. So another question: why are Muslims obligated to face the direction of the Kaa'ba when "praying"??

nuru:

From above, the question can then be rephrased as " Why do Muslims face the Qiblah when performing salat" . The simple answer is that it is a commandment of God and true believers will obey God first of all before looking for comprehensible reasons for the commandment.

Which does not answer the question just above. However, after how many centuries of obeying 'Allah', what then are the "comprehensive reasons for the commandment"??

nuru:

Another question will then be " Do the Muslims get the direction of the Qiblah right ". Yes, most Muslims do and even where genuinely, there is an error, God has given so much latitude as to declare that His face is everywhere in every direction. That is one of the things that show that Islam is a practical religion.

If there are "errors" and people find themselves committing such errors under the magnanimous latitude that His face is everywhere, then what then is the rational for the "commandment" in the first place??

Second, although this might be an offtopic issue, but I find it quizzical that most Muslims claim on the one hand that 'Allah' cannot be compared to anything and anyone; but on the other hand they speak of 'Allah' having a face - and that face is everywhere!!! That doesn't seem practical, especially when Muslims condemn the doctrines of other religions in order to promote theirs.

nuru:

Another question is " Do Muslims now have other comprehensible reasons for facing the Qiblah apart from following God's injunction " Yes Muslims do. Facing the Qiblah from all over the world is a big spiritual statement. Think of the Qiblah as multitudes of arrows pointing to the same spot from all around the globe. The spot is the Kaaba which is situated in the Sacred Masjid in Makkah. The Kaaba is just a building of four walls with covered roofs and a black stone at one of the corners. When you are in the Sacred Masjid, you pray facing the Kaaba. Pilgrimage to the Sacred Masjid which entails 'circumbulation' round the Kaaba is enjoined on a "typical" Muslim at least once in his/her lifetime. At least from human reasoning, we know that facing the Qiblah is a constant reminder of universal brotherhood of mankind under one creator, Allah. This is the spiritual statement.

The spiritual statement says only one thing: meaninglessness. Sorry, but that is precisely what Muhammad's companions confessed when following the example of the prophet of Islam who KISSED THE BLACK STONE!

Please nuru, if this spiritual statement is going anywhere at all, then you would have to explain to us the spiritual significance of the BLACK STONE! The veneration given to that stone is begging for serious answers to the question of its being something akin to worshipping it.

@nuru,

nuru:

"What informs the location of the Kaaba". Only God and his Messanger can answer that definitely.

Ah-a! Wetin happen to the claim that Abraham built Allah's house on that very spot; then pagans took over; then 40 years inbetween Muhammad overtook Noah and today - viola!!?? Infact, I really want to know where the commandment of the Jerusalem direction fit in all this Adam-to-Abraham and then Kaa'ba issue.

nuru:

Its just like asking what determines the location of oil reserves and deposits of diamond, gold etc around the world. There are lots of history surrounding the building of the Kaaba that the Muslims believe in and they are plausible.

Islam does not claim that they are plausible; rather, Muhammad wanted everyone to believe nothing else than his own version - whether or not plausible.

nuru:

But a more ordinary look tells you that looking at the map of the world, as it was acclaimed ( still looking for the reference )that probably the continents were joined together before, and given the location of Makkah, you would almost conclude that the Kaaba is at the centre of the surface of the earth.

The theory of Plate Tectonics developed in 1912 by Alfred Wegener, a German meteorologist; in which he saw a single super continent that he called Pangea. Over a long period of time, the super continent split up into large continents, Gondwanaland and Laurasia surrounding the ancient Tethys sea. You can have a glance in the following link to understand just a bit of this theory:

                   http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/Resources/EarthSci/Tectonics/


However, what should come to our attention here is the recontructed tales told by Muslim apologists (they're at it again O!). Take this statement in your post: "given the location of Makkah, you would almost conclude that the Kaaba is at the centre of the surface of the earth". Oga, sorry. . . but that is simply not true. The position of Makkah/Mecca is way skewed from the continental fault lines to be regarded as the center of the surface of the earth!! Na who sell you that lecture sef??

Take a look at the map below and please try and locate you Makkah to see for yourself!

           

You can trace the continental coastlines to see that your assumptions are not anywhere near accurate. Infact, to bring the view of the faultline closer, see the map below:

               [img]http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/graphics/Fig16.gif[/img]


So, nuru, where did you pick up your geography lessons?? Do you realize that there are reknowned Muslim geographers of centuries past? One of them is Ibn Batuta, and he didn't fall for this nonsense that modern Muslim apologists are trying shakara the pucblic with!

nuru:

Now come to think of it, there are two dates and time in a year that sun comes overhead above the Kaaba. Those two dates and times are:

May 28 at 9:18UT
July 16 at 9:27UT


" When you observe the sun at these times (after converting it to your local time), you will be facing the Kaaba giving you Qibla direction, because if there were a very high minaret over Kaaba reaching up to the sky, then you will see it just like you are seeing the sun. "

" Now, let us take a few examples. If you are in Islamabad, Pakistan (+5 hours time difference from Greenwich), the local time to observe the sun would be 2:18pm on May 28, and 2:27pm on July 16. Similarly, if you are in Nova Scotia, Canada (-3 hours time difference from Greenwich), the local time to observe the sun would be 6:18am on May 28, and 6:27am on July 16"

" If you are at a location that you cannot see the sun on the above mentioned two dates, then you can locate Qibla from the sun when it comes overhead at a point diametrically opposite of Makkah on the globe and look for the following two dates and times:

November 28 at 21:09UT
January 16 at 21:29UT

Face toward the shadow from the sun at these times (after converting it to local time) and you will be facing Kaaba. If you can see the sun but cannot see the shadow, put your back towards the sun and your face will be towards Qibla. "

I hope everybody on the thread can check out the above facts that have been proved over the ages. The rising and setting of the sun cannot be manipulated at least for now by humans. It is the work of the Creator of every being.

In just one statement, the above simply collapses flat on the fact that everyone facing EAST cannot ALL be facing the Kaa'ba! There's just no way Muslims are going to dribble round this issue.

I am quite aware that Muslims have come up with at least 5 ways to locate the Qibla. Those who use those five ways of finding the Qibla location are careful to not mention the "east" - because they know that the theory earlier given for this concerning facing the EAST cannot be substantiated - even from their holy books!

nuru:

" Glory be to Him in Whose hand is the dominion of the Heavens and the Earths. May His Peace continue to abide with the Righteous and the Truthful ''

I really hope for once you guys will simply face facts and give glory to God on the truth being revealed to you from those whom your Qur'an accuse of being pagans!

@olutomiwa,

olutomiwa:

davidylan,tellyb,babyosisi,gwaine,mr pataki all other soldiers of Christ on nairaland,i want to thank you all not only for sharing your knowledge with us and for DEFLATING ALL THE LIES members of the OPPOSING TEAM posted on this thread,but also for being TRUE SOLDIERS OF CHRIST,my God continue to enrich your knowledge,bless and protect u,you guys made me to be proud of being a christain,may heaven be OURS IN Jesus name{AMEN}

God bless you many times more!

olutomiwa:

davidylan,tellyb,babyosisi,gwaine,mr pataki all other soldiers of Christ on nairaland,i want to thank you all not only for sharing your knowledge with us and for DEFLATING ALL THE LIES members of the OPPOSING TEAM posted on this thread,but also for being TRUE SOLDIERS OF CHRIST,my God continue to enrich your knowledge,bless and protect u,you guys made me to be proud of being a christain,may heaven be OURS IN Jesus name{AMEN}

Amen and God bless you richly too. You made me roll with laughter with the "allah's house rent expired in jerusalem" skitt.

Telly B, your geography is spot on! Kudos!

@nuru,

nuru:

God created the world and all in it. Observing different aspects of nature as commanded by God for the purpose of worship is not idolatry.

We hear. So, if I am hugging and caressing a tree for the purpose of worship, you can assert that it is not idolatory?!?  

nuru:

What is idolatry. It is to ascribe and to believe and to act upon such believe that there is another diety worthy of worship beside or alongside your creator. That is idolatry.

That is a convenient definition of idolatory for the purpose of disguising the reality of the baneful practice. As defined in the Torah, idolatory is far reaching than that; and includes the veneration[/i]of, and [i]reverence to, an object as included in worship. Ask, and I'll gladly explicate the issue of the BLACK STONE for what it really is - with hard "facts, evidence, maps, and pictures".

nuru:

Muslims believe in God, the One and Only Creator of the entire universe. So what is so special about the Kaaba. What is special about it is that God commanded believers to face it when observing salat. How was the commandment communicated. Of course it is through the Quran revealed to the most noble of mankind, Muhammad the son of Abdullah, the Prophet of God.(Salla lau alaehi wa salam)

Okay, back to reality. I have just one question: why was the BLACK STONE nowhere mentioned in the Torah as part of the worship in the lives of Adam, Abraham and the Jews??

nuru:

Will Christ know what you say in your heart. No

Actually, Christ knows exactly what people say and think in their hearts. In Luke 9:47, we read that He perceived the thoughts that were in the disciples' hearts (see also Luke 5:22). In Matt. 9:4, we read: "And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?"

nuru:

Will God know what you say in your heart. Yes

That's true - just as has been outlined above about Christ.

nuru:

Why is that. Because God is your Creator and Jesus is not.

Again, you wouldn't exist without Christ, of whom it is written: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." -- John 1:3.

nuru:

But Jesus is special. Yes, to the extent that he is a Spirit of God

He is more than that; and even in Islam, He is accorded a superlative position than the Qur'an accorded Muhammad.

nuru:

But can't Spirit of God be God. No, they are different. One is the Origin, the other is subservient to Him

Not even the Qur'an teaches this. Muhammad was onced asked about the Spirit. His answer showed how blank he was about who the Spirit of God is. Rather, he said only Allah knew - and that was simply because he had mistaken Jibril for the Spirit.

nuru:

But this issue of Qiblah. Yes, facing it for salat is only symbolic. All mankind must focus on God, that is the lesson

Facing the Qiblah is not the same thing as focusing on God; in as much as you have not explicated the "symbolic" significance of the BLACK STONE!

nuru:

Why is it in Makkah. To get an answer, you must first answer this '' why is River Niger in Nigeria, why does the tide rise and fall, why must the earth orbit the sun, why must man live and die. A lot of whys. that you may not be able to answer.

In other words, you were unable to answer your own question?? Awww.

nuru:

So, if the Lord of Wisdom says face a particular place for salat, who are you to dispute it.

We are not disputing what the Lord says. Rather, we are not that gullible to swallow what even Muslims have been unable to defend for themselves before asking others to swallow.

nuru:

God created the world and all in it. Observing different aspects of nature as commanded by God for the purpose of worship is not idolatry. What is idolatry. It is to ascribe and to believe and to act upon such believe that there is another diety worthy of worship beside or alongside your creator. That is idolatry. Muslims believe in God, the One and Only Creator of the entire universe. So what is so special about the Kaaba. What is special about it is that God commanded believers to face it when observing salat. How was the commandment communicated. Of course it is through the Quran revealed to the most noble of mankind, Muhammad the son of Abdullah, the Prophet of God.(Salla lau alaehi wa salam)

Will Christ know what you say in your heart. No

Will God know what you say in your heart. Yes

Why is that. Because God is your Creator and Jesus is not.

But Jesus is special. Yes, to the extent that he is a Spirit of God

But can't Spirit of God be God. No, they are different. One is the Origin, the other is subservient to Him

But this issue of Qiblah. Yes, facing it for salat is only symbolic. All mankind must focus on God, that is the lesson

Why is it in Makkah. To get an answer, you must first answer this '' why is River Niger in Nigeria, why does the tide rise and fall, why must the earth orbit the sun, why must man live and die. A lot of whys. that you may not be able to answer.

So, if the Lord of Wisdom says face a particular place for salat, who are you to dispute it.

Thanks alot for the explaination so far brothers.A lot of points had been made for you guys on why Muslims face Kaaba not  East as the initial message wrote.
We are doing that out of obedient to Almight Allah,Who creats everything you can either see or know and those behind our ability to know. People mostly utter some words out of ignorance, If any of you wishes to know more on Islam or Muslims let him peak Al Quran and read it very well with all sincerity of knowing the truth.I believe God will show him alot of reality which are in Islam only and no other religion.

For the believes: ALLAH said they will never believe no matter what u show or tell them.

As for me I am proud to be a muslim that understand his religion very well.

Any matter on religion is very broad but most people know less about what they are talking about.I don't think any religion issue can be finalise online.

@Realpoint,

The answers given so far by Muslims - whether facing EAST or Kaa'ba - are borne out of ignorance! Even common sense geography is vacant in most of their answers - except the forthright and honest answer from one Muslim so far: sandoka!!

Should we even leave the issue of cardinal directions (east, west, north south) for a moment, have you taken a closer look at nuru'[/b]s questions and answers which you quoted in your response, and see how he flunks it out of IGNORANCE!! The guy is clueless about who Christ is; and I've had to show him answers from the Bible!

Now, I observe that anytime the Muslim is pointed to straightforward, no-nonsense answers, they come up with some verses from the Qur'an which they apply as soothing balm to the bruise of the ignorance. You may be a Muslim and be proud of it; and we're all happy for you. But to plaster the shame of the vacancy of thought and scholarship at the basic level is, to me, simply out of this world!

Let me ask you: when have Muslims ever believed anything when they've been pointed out lucidly?? Only the sensible ones are leaving Islam and finding grace and salvation in Jesus Christ!

It would be such a delight to read from the likes of [b]sandoka who, in telling the truth, has earned my respect!

But for those who are honestly interested in the topic, I personally wouldn't have responded again to the Blasphemy and Ignorant "intelligence" of people like Telly B, davidylan, babyosisi, and olutomiwa. The question had since been answered and has been answered over and over again with another comprehensive answer from nuru, yet the disbeleiving heart of some people will not make them see, rather they want to question God (Allah). For your info beleive sometimes look strange especially when we try to question the Almighty. Yet we muslims have played maturedly, we haven't asked you why your god died on a cross and who was in control of the world for the 3 days he was dead. We haven't asked u why u call a Prophet (Jesus) God, at the same time son of God, even when we all knw God does not beget nor was he begotten, and so many more which I wouldn't bring up cos I beleive that; You will never worship that which I worship, nor will I worship that which you worship, cos for you is your religion and for me mine. For this reason I will not bother responding to insincere posts from people not willing to see answers. For those new to this thread pls refer to previous posts for answers. Thx

@Flowjay,

Wetin dey vex you?? 

Flowjay:

But for those who are honestly interested in the topic, I personally wouldn't have responded again to the Blasphemy and Ignorant "intelligence" of people like Telly B, davidylan, babyosisi, and olutomiwa.

I like your choice of vocab at me and my Christian brethren. . . but you have not demonstrated any level of IQ. Until you do so, I would keep my fingers crossed for you!

The thing about "ignorant intelligence" is that we know what we're talking about. The common sense thing to do would be to point out the flaws in our rejoinders, and show us HOW we got it all wrong! Failing to do so and sobbing all at once is making it difficult for me to concentrate on gaining more "ignorant intelligence"!! 

Flowjay:

The question had since been answered and has been answered over and over again with another comprehensive answer from nuru, yet the disbeleiving heart of some people will not make them see, rather they want to question God (Allah).

First, it was nuru I was questioning; and not God. Second, nuru is not God, nor has he been able to demonstrate common sense here - even so far as having been unable to answer his own question!!

Not one Muslim (except sandoka) has been honest enough to kindly show how our rejoinders are skewed or wide of berth to the core issues raised here. How many of your Muslim brethren have answered any one of the 4 questions I posted initially?? After taking off from the thread, babs787 returned with his bragado style of circumventing questions because he felt the praises he got from his ilk were shortlived. And what happened after I explained the working of the qiblah detector to him?

You don't use one set of ignorance to pepper another from your brethren.

Flowjay:

For your info beleive sometimes look strange especially when we try to question the Almighty.

Belief may look strange; but we seek to understand rather than question the Almighty!

Flowjay:

Yet we muslims have played maturedly, we haven't asked you why your god died on a cross and who was in control of the world for the 3 days he was dead.

Please go through the threads again - that question has been reharshed and circulated several times in various threads by your own Muslim apologists. Besides, islampride's blasphemous thread is still there for all to see how a Muslim behaves for nothing other than to justify his "ignorant intelligence". There has not been a coherent or consistent display of maturity coming from your camp - especially with the "tit-for-tat" games recently; so please don't make this cosmetic excuse that pretends these things don't exist among Muslims.

Flowjay:

We haven't asked u why u call a Prophet (Jesus) God, at the same time son of God, even when we all knw God does not beget nor was he begotten, and so many more which I wouldn't bring up because I beleive that; You will never worship that which I worship, nor will I worship that which you worship,

Another cosmetic and pretentious excuse. These questions have been asked one too many times by Muslims. Go figure.

Flowjay:

because for you is your religion and for me mine. For this reason I will not bother responding to insincere posts from people not willing to see answers.

We will miss you - NOT!! If you were being sincere, we would not be reading such snivels from you - especially because you're pretending the issues you're talking about don't exist among Muslims on this Forum.

Flowjay:

For those new to this thread please refer to previous posts for answers. Thx

They will go there and see the maps, facts, evidences, and pictures I posted; plus the scholarly debates offered by other Christians to counter the cosmetic deception you guys often try to dribble around to coverup obvious shams.

Regards.

@ Telly B, i no fit laugh again. These members of the qiblah solidarity movement sef na wa!

Flowjay:

For your info beleive sometimes look strange especially when we try to question the Almighty. Yet we muslims have played maturedly,

If by that you mean by dribbling around issues, maintaining a cowardly silence, struggling desperately to divert the main topic, launch into vitriolics, stand logic on its head by claiming east is east whether in Japan or Mexico then i agree you have all played "maturedly".

Flowjay:

we haven't asked you why your god died on a cross and who was in control of the world for the 3 days he was dead. We haven't asked u why u call a Prophet (Jesus) God, at the same time son of God, even when we all knw God does not beget nor was he begotten, and so many more which I wouldn't bring up

Maybe you need to make a quick dash to the religion section and view blabs787's 101 contradictions in the bible or do you need us to bring out the numerous spurious websites where the questions you ask have been rehashed and worn out?

Flowjay:

because I beleive that; You will never worship that which I worship, nor will I worship that which you worship, because for you is your religion and for me mine.

That is the cowardly and appologist response you get when muslims are backed into a corner. It was the same "gimmick" mohammed used to trick his opponents until he became militarily strong; after that anyone who failed to accept islam became an ape and pig fit to be killed.

Flowjay:

For this reason I will not bother responding to insincere posts from people not willing to see answers. For those new to this thread please refer to previous posts for answers. Thx

what a long winding way of acepting defeat. It is easy to pop up when you know the heat is down and accuse others of ignorance,; what have you done to thoroughly expose our "ignorance"?

@davidylan,

Water don comot for my eye with laff! Abeg make I go house - I've played enough in the cafe!! See you guys later!

Telly B:

@Realpoint,

The answers given so far by Muslims - whether facing EAST or Kaa'ba - are borne out of ignorance! Even common sense geography is vacant in most of their answers - except the forthright and honest answer from one Muslim so far: sandoka!!

Should we even leave the issue of cardinal directions (east, west, north south) for a moment, have you taken a closer look at nuru'[/b]s questions and answers which you quoted in your response, and see how he flunks it out of IGNORANCE!! The guy is clueless about who Christ is; and I've had to show him answers from the Bible!

Now, I observe that anytime the Muslim is pointed to straightforward, no-nonsense answers, they come up with some verses from the Qur'an which they apply as soothing balm to the bruise of the ignorance. You may be a Muslim and be proud of it; and we're all happy for you. But to plaster the shame of the vacancy of thought and scholarship at the basic level is, to me, simply out of this world!

Let me ask you: when have Muslims ever believed anything when they've been pointed out lucidly?? Only the sensible ones are leaving Islam and finding grace and salvation in Jesus Christ!

It would be such a delight to read from the likes of [b]sandoka who, in telling the truth, has earned my respect!

When Sandoka has answered your question why all the problems again?
I don't have much time to discuss on line that is why I went through some contributions and try to answer your question.I got to know sandoka case now that u mentioned him.To me I don't fight or create enemy for religion sack. In all ur contribution to this topic ur deviated more that anybody as far as I am concern on this topic.
@ Flowjay
But for those who are honestly interested in the topic, I personally wouldn't have responded again to the Blasphemy and Ignorant "intelligence" of people like Telly B, davidylan, babyosisi, and olutomiwa.

Do you think this guy is not right about you??You only know how to play with words not that you are saying the right thing as you have claimed.Geography came after religion has being established so I do not know why I should apply geography of common man to the directive of Al might God as you claimed while praising sandoka.

Remember that human being know little of God's knowlegde so why this comparison??I think you are trully ignorant of the might of God.

The question is again:Why Do Muslims Face The East When Praying?[/b]Does this has to do with geography?I repeat my answer we do not face East ,we face Kaaba periods and it in obedient to Al might God.

Are you sincere to yourself?If yes answer this question.
[b]Does God that created Adam without father and mother,then created Eva from Adam without mother then created Jesus Christ without father is the greatest or Jesus His creation .Is only people that doesn't think to this length will take Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Try Islam with it uniqueness in everything.

Realpoint:

Are you sincere to yourself?If yes answer this question.
Does God that created Adam without father and mother,then created Eva from Adam without mother then created Jesus Christ without father is the greatest or Jesus His creation .Is only people that doesn't think to this length will take Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Try Islam with it uniqueness in everything.

again the usual "questions" all in an attempt to deflect the main issue, allah's poor command of the geography of the earth he claimed to have created.

Why are you confused that Jesus Christ who came in human flesh is our Saviour and Lord?

Where you not the same person who told us that "Remember that human being know little of God's knowlegde so why this comparison??I think you are trully ignorant of the might of God."?

If you can use the "we know little of God's knowledge" excuse to explain away the discrepancies in the quran, why are you reluctant to accept same logic when we insist that God could humble himself to come down in human flesh for the sole purpose of dying for our sins on the cross?

davidylan:

again the usual "questions" all in an attempt to deflect the main issue, Allah's poor command of the geography of the earth he claimed to have created.

Why are you confused that Jesus Christ who came in human flesh is our Saviour and Lord?

Where you not the same person who told us that "Remember that human being know little of God's knowledge so why this comparison??I think you are truly ignorant of the might of God."?

If you can use the "we know little of God's knowledge" excuse to explain away the discrepancies in the Quran, why are you reluctant to accept same logic when we insist that God could humble himself to come down in human flesh for the sole purpose of dying for our sins on the cross?

You always deviated from the point but I will still answer you.
You are actually confused not me.Is it until God come in human flesh before he can save the world? Remember He created the world.God is might than coming to human level before doing any thing.
God's came in human flesh and killed by His creation so that He could forgive them as you've claimed.How rational,logical and realistic is that?Do you mean God can't forgive without embark on such suicide mission.My friend you are lost but failed to realized better wake up before it is too last.A word is enough for the wise.

Remember that human being know little of God's knowledge so why this comparison??I think you are truly ignorant of the might of God Is just a quotation by me.Why can't you use this word to believe in Allah that beyond comparing HIM with humanbeing.I used this quotation to tell you God's power is more than geographical knowledge and not for you to say I am using it justify Quran.Another deviation

Go and read DADINCI CODE BY Thomas Hank.

@Realpoint,

I'm not cast in the usual Islamic mold of reading issues backwards with cataract eyes; and that is why I could see that sandoka made sense, and appreciated it.

Besides him, there's no other Muslim that has been that honest. The rejoinders coming from the rest of you chaps have sought to fill the page with literary muck. One would have expected you guys to point out issues rather than whine like kids.

Go through the thread and see that the emphasis of my concerns have not been about people facing anywhere to pray. Rather, for Muslims to try and cheat the public with their usual analphabetic bragado and self-adulation simply won't work anymore as long as I'm on the Forum. Concerns about the "spiritual symbol" of the BLACK STONE are still left hanging; and any effort made to query that has been termed questioning the Almighty! What silliness.

I've told you guys: it wasn't my intention to stay very long on the Forum. I came here to spank your middle-aged deception which have been long bantered around as a sad substitute for intelligence; and after all that, I found the Muslim presence here rather a noise. Mission accomplished; so dry your eyes now and go sporting with the same cacophony in my absence. But not before my subscript to your latest nuisance:

Realpoint:

Do you think this guy is not right about you??You only know how to play with words not that you are saying the right thing as you have claimed.

It's a very simple thing: show me where I'm gravely mistaken and we'll take it from there!

Realpoint:

Geography came after religion has being established so I do not know why I should apply geography of common man to the directive of Al might God as you claimed while praising sandoka.

First, sandoka has earned my respect; and I'm grateful to have met an honest and open Muslim who has distinguished himself. He understood and knew exactly the facts on ground, which is still taking the rest of you forever to see.

Now, what religion are you talking about? Islam?? There were reknowned geographers and scientists before the emergence of Islam; and to pretend that 'religion' (if you rather meant 'Islam') came before geography is to manipulate history and once again expose your ribald scholarship.

Eratosthenes (275-195 BC) was the first person to use the word "geography" and was himself a Greek mathematician, geographer, and astronomer. He was reknowned for being the first to have calculated the circumference of the earth, using trigonometry and knowledge of the angle of elevation of the Sun at noon in Alexandria and in the Elephantine Island near Syene (now Aswan, Egypt). He is also noted for devising a system of longitude and latitude, and made several important contributions to mathematics and science.

Read more here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

This is only one example of a geographer who lived  well over 600 years before Muhammad was born! And you sitting there gritting  about how your islamic religion came before geography! Please don't embarrass the public reader further than has been endured from you and your folks.

Realpoint:

Remember that human being know little of God's knowlegde so why this comparison??

I remember that we're frail and know not as we ought to know. However, to murky the waters of clear reasoning with the beggerly backyard claims of so many Muslims is scandalous!

Realpoint:

I think you are trully ignorant of the might of God.

God has not asked us to sit on our brains and become automatons of analphabetism. Go check your Qur'an: it clearly tells you that Christians are intelligent people in Sura 5:82:

". . .nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians":
because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world,
and they are not arrogant."

I should not even tell you what Muhammad thought of Arabs!

Realpoint:

The question is again:Why Do Muslims Face The East When Praying?[/b]Does this has to do with geography?I repeat my answer we do not face East ,we face Kaaba periods and it in obedient to Al might God.

Do you listen to yourself when you speak at all; or you're just letting your vehemence run wild? When you mention "[b]The East" and asking if this has to do with geography, should we begin to wonder about your reading skills?

Realpoint:

Are you sincere to yourself?If yes answer this question.
Does God that created Adam without father and mother,then created Eva from Adam without mother then created Jesus Christ without father is the greatest or Jesus His creation .Is only people that doesn't think to this length will take Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

You're making me laugh! Jesus Christ was NOT created - He IS the Creator! I've said it before and referenced John 1:3. What you Muslims are so desperately seeking is to denounce the Bible and make Jesus a "slave" to 'Allah' to suit your religion and conscience! If He is not the Saviour, what does the Qur'an mean by calling Him the Messiah??

Realpoint:

Try Islam with it uniqueness in everything.

Islam is not unique in everything. Unique in a few things, yes; but unique in everything, NO! The issues about claims of the Qur'an being scientific is a sham; and perhaps that is one reason that will keep me longer on the Forum. Call for your best apologists for back-up; and I'll gladly take them on.

Regards.

@ Realpoint, i will not be drawn into arguing with you so you can successfully derail the topic. the question is about the direction muslims face when praying and not whether Jesus Christ makes sense to muslims who are determined to see nothing but contradictions and then sob desperately when they are on the recieving end.

Tell us: stop using the alleged "might of god" to sweep it under the carpet. Are your muslim brothers correct when they avow that east is east whether in Japan or Mexico? What is in the qiblah that you all bow down to 5 times a day and why do you do so if it is merely a way of "observing nature in worship"?

Answer that first before you start looking for a way to dribble out of your confusion. If you truly seek answers to your questions run through several threads on the religion board. They have been treated more than 1000 times, you are merely recycling the question the same old quranic accusations that do not stand the test of time. If you are not satisfied, open a separate thread and ask your "questions" there. In any case you are yet to provide any concrete explanations here beyond attempting to run us off track!

I still mentain my ground.If you want us to open a topic to clear the issues on ground fine.But let us be precise in our answer rather than deviation.That is the point I am making since.

davidylan:

@ Realpoint, i will not be drawn into arguing with you so you can successfully derail the topic. the question is about the direction muslims face when praying and not whether Jesus Christ makes sense to muslims who are determined to see nothing but contradictions and then sob desperately when they are on the recieving end.

Tell us: stop using the alleged "might of god" to sweep it under the carpet. Are your muslim brothers correct when they avow that east is east whether in Japan or Mexico? What is in the qiblah that you all bow down to 5 times a day and why do you do so if it is merely a way of "observing nature in worship"?

Answer that first before you start looking for a way to dribble out of your confusion. If you truly seek answers to your questions run through several threads on the religion board. They have been treated more than 1000 times, you are merely recycling the question the same old quranic accusations that do not stand the test of time. If you are not satisfied, open a separate thread and ask your "questions" there. In any case you are yet to provide any concrete explanations here beyond attempting to run us off track!

Realpoint:

I still mentain my ground.If you want us to open a topic to clear the issues on ground fine.But let us be precise in our answer rather than deviation.That is the point I am making since.

Your questions have been recycled many times in various circles. But even so, I appreciate that the present topic be preserved.

Realpoint:

I still mentain my ground.If you want us to open a topic to clear the issues on ground fine.But let us be precise in our answer rather than deviation.That is the point I am making since.

the sole issues on ground are staring you in the face. What direction do muslims face when praying? What is the significance? merely observing nature in worship? Dont dodge issues.

davidylan:

the sole issues on ground are staring you in the face. What direction do Muslims face when praying? What is the significance? merely observing nature in worship? Don't dodge issues.

I have answered the Questions:
What direction do Muslims face when praying? Kaaba,it now depend on how to locate it from anywhere you find yourself in the world.

What is the significance?Obedient to God's command and it is an act of worship to obey Him.

Look I don't and can't dodge issue.You rather asked yourself whether you answer my question in the follow post?

Realpoint:

Is it until God come in human flesh before he can save the world? Remember He created the world.God is might than coming to human level before doing any thing?
God's came in human flesh and killed by His creation so that He could forgive them?How rational,logical and realistic is that?Do you mean God can't forgive without embark on such suicide mission?

I don't argue neither my dear friend.I hate deviation due to any reason in which that is what u are doing mostly.Haven't I answer these question since.Stay focus and be precise my dear.

Take good care of urself.

@Realpoint,

Realpoint:

I hate deviation due to any reason in which that is what u are doing mostly.

Please don't try to cheat the thread with this dry rot. Your brother nuru was the one that launched the deflection when he saw his post was put where it belonged; and you have been trying to whip up the same deflection several times.

The questions he brough up about the deity of Jesus Christ have been answered; and those you whipped up have been answered as well. I haven't seen you guys address the questions I offered, other than the usual dribbling you've been displaying.

Where have you or nuru answered the following questions in my earlier post?

        # Where do Muslims themselves get the idea that they face the EAST when praying?

        # Are there verses in the Qur'an and Hadiths stipulating the direction Muslims face for
           salat?

        # What was the main reason why Muhammad was first facing Jerusalem in his prayers?

        # What was the main reason why Muhammad turned from Jerusalem to the Kaa'ba?

        # Why was the prayer direction not first towards the Kaa'ba but rather towards Jerusalem?

You guys pretended you didn't see them before trying to introduce your Islamic propaganda.

Realpoint:

Look I don't and can't dodge issue.

Indeed! And you conveniently pretended that you didn't dodge the questions above. And what have you said about the fact that there were reknowned geographers at least 600 years before Islam emerged??

You don't dodge issues indeed!

Realpoint:

Is it until God come in human flesh before he can save the world? Remember He created the world.God is might than coming to human level before doing any thing.
God's came in human flesh and killed by His creation so that He could forgive them as you've claimed.How rational,logical and realistic is that?Do you mean God can't forgive without embark on such suicide mission.

This is the "maturity" you have displayed in your discussion by the highlighted words, not so? You guys often don't realize how much you slice your middle region with your vitriol by trying to calumniate Jesus Christ. But here are a few questions to help you reflect on the whining you called questions:

       # why did Allah have to wait until Muhammad's time before sending the "religion of peace"??

       # why did he have to wait until several of his own books (torah and injil) went missing??

       # what is the logic behind the suicide mission of your jihadists??

       # why was Muhammad changing his mind on several issues and then making up that it was
           Allah who changed his mind on those issues?

       # why is there not a single mention of the BLACK STONE anywhere in the religious history
          of Adam, Abraham and the Jews in their worship when you read the Jewish scriptures?

       # who commanded Muhammad to KISS the BLACK STONE, and what is the significance of that?

       # who commanded Muslims to venerate the BLACK STONE in their hajj to Mecca??

        # why is the hajj to the Kaa'ba and the BLACK STONE nowhere indicated in the Torah??



Deflecting from the topic, and playing your usual Islamic games of circumventing core concerns, are not going to help you sweep this issue away so simply.

I didn't know I can use part of someone message that was why I posted all nuru message earlier. I am very busy now.
The last reply was meant for davidylan.
Did I mention Islam ? I was talking of religion and All the prophet of God came with messege of God without tagging it religion until the time of Prophet.What is the religion of Abraham?You are wrong to say geographers at least 600 years before Islam emerged.Islam has being the religion of all the prophets including Jesus Christ(AS).

you know what I don't have much time as I have said earlier this discussion has taken most of my time.God knows the truth you can call it anyname you what.Dodge.

My friend I am not the type that find it so hard to leave with other religion.Telly B ,I know you are good in using words.

Take good care of yourself.bye for now.

u all re a bunch of ignorant fools, u tink its funny playin wif ppls belief?ur beta look 4some tin else 2joke wif if ur al dat foolish,

@Realpoint,

Realpoint:

I didn't know I can use part of someone message that was why I posted all nuru message earlier. I am very busy now.

No problem. We can all be busy between times.

Realpoint:

The last reply was meant for davidylan.

That is no reason to have posted replies that ignored the issues raised in my rejoinder to your earlier post.

Realpoint:

Did I mention Islam ? I was talking of religion and All the prophet of God came with messege of God without tagging it religion until the time of Prophet.What is the religion of Abraham?

The religion of Abraham was not Islam.   Let me help you think carefully on this point with just one question:  

Why would God have to set Islam aside and establish Judaism and Christianity before coming back to Islam centuries later??

Abraham predated Judiasm, right? Right. If Abraham was a Muslim in the religion of Islam, what is the logic behind Allah setting Abraham's Islam aside in order to establish Judaism?? It would only mean two things at this level:

    (a) Islam makes unsubstantiated claims (whether in science, history or religion)

    (b) Islam did not begin with Abraham, even if Muhammad claimed that it did!

Realpoint:

You are wrong to say geographers at least 600 years before Islam emerged.Islam has being the religion of all the prophets including Jesus Christ(AS).

Not true, so please don't let your hangers fly frantically. Muhammad claimed that Islam has been the religion of all the prophets; but he conveniently left out several of those prophets whose revelations stand to expose Muhammad's claims as baseless. Where in the Qur'an were the following prophets mentioned:


                               - ISAIAH

                               - EZEKIEL

                               - ZECHARIAH

                               - DANIEL

                               - JEREMIAH

                               - MICAH?

At least, we know that Jesus made direct references to three of those prophets by name:

            (a) Isaiah [see Matt. 15:7-9 & Mark 7:6-7 and compare with Isa. 29:13]

            (b) Daniel [see Matt. 24:15 & Mark 13:14 and compare with Dan. 12:11]

            (c) Zechariah [see Matt. 23:35 and compare with II Chron. 24:20-22]

In the Qur'an, none of those prophets were referred to by name simply because their revelation would have turned Islam on its head if Muhammad had made direct reference to them. None of these prophets were Muslims; and historians as well as Islamic scholars cannot deny the fact that Islam as a religion was unknown before Muhammad was born.

Realpoint:

you know what I don't have much time as I have said earlier this discussion has taken most of my time.God knows the truth you can call it anyname you what.Dodge.

I also don't have that much time; and I've said a few times that I'm here on this Forum for a short time. However, I might as well be here for a little longer because you guys keep making statements that clearly fly in the face of history, religion and science!!

Realpoint:

My friend I am not the type that find it so hard to leave with other religion.Telly B ,I know you are good in using words.

I can live with Muslims, and there are quite a lot of them that are my very good friends. . .a few Hindus and Sikhs as well; and I find them very intelligent people who don't argue from the black hole! Certainly, those brilliant minds have taken me to task - and I'm thankful to God for such a blessing.

No mind me at all - I'm a Nigerian as well   . . . and I can appreciate good sense in the dictions of others (like you) as well as the honesty of people like sandoka!

Realpoint:

Take good care of yourself.bye for now.

Blessings until we have the occasion to rub minds again.