Ushersx:

u all re a bunch of ignorant fools, u think its funny playin with ppls belief?your beta look 4some tin else 2joke with if your al that foolish,

If you've got nothing reasonable to say, simply ignore what you feel is biting you.

@BABS787 NOTIN DO U, , BUT AL D SAME U GET TYME 2DEY ANSWER MORONS,

Ushersx:

@BABS787 NOTIN DO U, , BUT AL D SAME U GET TYME 2DEY ANSWER MORONS,

We know. . . and he has not been able to provide answers to the "morons". So keep sobbing.

@  TELLYB, firstly am proud 2be a muslim, its a shame wen 1 is ignorant or stupid, i believe i know more dan an average muslim,so i wat 2do in cases like dis, i talk 2d wise nd open minded ppl who re willin 2learn nd not critics, SO IF UR WILLIN 2LEARN UR FREE 2ASK ME QUESTIONS BUT NOT STUPID ONCE

@Ushersx,

Ushersx:

@  TELLYB, firstly am proud 2be a muslim, its a shame when 1 is ignorant or stupid, i believe i know more dan an average muslim,so i what 2do in cases like this, i talk 2d wise nd open minded people who re willin 2learn nd not critics, SO IF UR WILLIN 2LEARN UR FREE 2ASK ME QUESTIONS BUT NOT STUPID ONCE

Asking you questions is not going to yield any benefit to you personally. There are a few on the previous page - did you miss them? Your first entrant to this thread simply shows where your IQ is measured at; so don't waste precious space and time. 

Those you mistake for "wise nd open minded people" have said nothing tangible - and this is the 6th page so far. The kind of folks you identify with are revealed in the level of maturity you display, especially having to enter the thread with the usual Islamic dance of calling others "ignorant fools" when you have said nothing to show the flaws in the previous entries.

Only half-witted guys vroom into threads making statements like that. The Bible has the following interesting things to say about your type of behaviour:

Prov. 13:16 - 'Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.'

Prov. 17:28 - 'Even fools seem smart when they are quiet.'

That is why I hinted that if you've got nothing to say, keep quiet and quit playing the usual games your folks have been at all along - it only makes matters worse for you.

its so sad that one of the rules of this forum is to respect other members yet we are doing the opposite, all i have seen davidlan telly b and co doing is to call muslims names and the muslims themselves are falling into the trap by replying likewise. please lets all be more matured about the way we handle issues.

first of all i would like to say salam/shalom to everyone on the forum;

the first question why do muslims face the east has been answered; muslims dont just face the east they face the Kaaba and there is no where in the Quran where its said that Muslims should face the East in contrast d Quran says your lord has appointed a Qiblah for us.

There is nothing inside the Kaaba its a house of worship the Black stone is outside the Kaaba itself just beside the Mosque; i mean the stone building itself (you can confirm from any muslim the black stone is not inside the Kaaba). Prophet Ibrahim (A.S.) built it with his son ismael who had inhabited the area after being settled there by his father it is the Black stone that the Ibrahim stood on while he was building the house. i must also state hear that Ibrahim(AS) is not a jew some people want to think because it was his offsprings that became the founders of the Jews and the Arabs, so in any case it would seem like he is both a Jew and An Arab. Ismael is the fore father of the Arab race while Isaac is the father of the Jewish race.

Muslims dont worship the black stone and do affirm in their hearts that they dont worship it as every muslim has to make a declaration of faith that says "There is Only one God worthy of worship and Muhammad (SAW) is his prophet".

i must correect the mistakes all our christian brothers have been making by taking everything muslims do as a rule of Islam thats not right if the Bible says a christian should not covet his neighbors property and he goes on to do so does it mean Christianity encourages covetousness of course the answer is a Big NO. so also the same applies to Muslims who are ignorant or just want to do things there own way. Islam is a faith Muslims are the faithfuls so the question is not whether the Faith is Good but whether muslims are being true faithfuls (the question applies to all faiths too). if a muslim does not face the qiblah out of error or ignorance Allah will accept his acts and thats why Allah says "to him belongs all the regions of the earth and the heavens" but if some muslims still insist to do things the way they like then we cannot blame the religion for the acts of such a humanbein after all he has a free will.

i as a muslim would advise the christians to try and read more about Islam the advent and the personality of Prophet Muhamad (you can try Yusuf Haykals Muhammad), what islam says about jews, christians and idolators and the way Islam and muslims sees Jesus (AS) And indeed all the other Prophets of God. because many of the things you are all quoting are not objective; since you didnt look at the two sides of the same coin. remember we are all human beings and more often than not we do things based at times not even on our faith but our emotions thats why it so easy for a person to listen to a sermon on the fact that fornication is bad and will still leave the church or mosque and still fornicate. please be careful of what you read dont just jump to conclusions "first impressions may last long but they may be wrong".

on a lastnote i want to advise my muslim brothers not go into name calling when treating such issues relating to our dear religion Islam for it is our duty to call others to the Path it is Allah who makes it easy for all of us to understand and accept. May God Guide us All.

kq:

There is nothing inside the Kaaba its a house of worship the Black stone is outside the Kaaba itself just beside the Mosque; i mean the stone building itself (you can confirm from any muslim the black stone is not inside the Kaaba). Prophet Ibrahim (A.S.) built it with his son ismael who had inhabited the area after being settled there by his father it is the Black stone that the Ibrahim stood on while he was building the house. i must also state hear that Ibrahim(AS) is not a jew some people want to think because it was his offsprings that became the founders of the Jews and the Arabs, so in any case it would seem like he is both a Jew and An Arab. Ismael is the fore father of the Arab race while Isaac is the father of the Jewish race.

We have heard this same baseless claims a million times already. If indeed Abraham built the kaaba, why are the jews ignoring it?
Abraham lived more than 2000 yrs before the kaaba was built pls stop the lies and contradictions.

East is where the power of God duels,even in the bible GOD says that the people of the East are my chosen people,no wonder any where in the world, it is only in the East of every country that you have abundance mineral resources. and wealth. THINK YOU Judas of modern times, think or read your bible or Koran well before you ask your silly questions.

Why do these fellows keep sun-tanning their brains?

@kq,
No offences, but your recycled theory has been nailed to the coffin and its ghost happens to drift here and there among people who have refused to investigate the claims made in Islam.

Abraham knew nothing of the Kaa'ba nor about the black stone. It is this very same issue that have informed my questions earlier:

       # Why would God have had to set Islam aside and establish Judaism and Christianity
          before coming back to Islam centuries later??

       # What was the main reason why Muhammad was first facing Jerusalem in his prayers?

       # What was the main reason why Muhammad turned from Jerusalem to the Kaa'ba?

       # Why was the prayer direction not first towards the Kaa'ba but rather towards Jerusalem?

      # why is there not a single mention of the BLACK STONE anywhere in the religious history
         of Adam, Abraham and the Jews in their worship when you read the Jewish scriptures?

      # who commanded Muhammad to KISS the BLACK STONE, and what is the significance of that?

      # who commanded Muslims to venerate the BLACK STONE in their hajj to Mecca??

       # why is the hajj to the Kaa'ba and the BLACK STONE nowhere indicated in the Torah??[/font]

Until you guys find some answers to these pressing questions, you will perhaps never be able to discover how baseless are the many claims made in Islam.

BillGatesFan:

East is where the power of God duels,even in the bible GOD says that the people of the East are my chosen people,no wonder any where in the world, it is only in the East of every country that you have abundance mineral resources. and wealth. THINK YOU Judas of modern times, think or read your bible or Koran well before you ask your silly questions.

Could you please offer some references for your persuasions? Thanks. 

BillGatesFan:

East is where the power of God duels,even in the bible GOD says that the people of the East are my chosen people,no wonder any where in the world, it is only in the East of every country that you have abundance mineral resources. and wealth. THINK YOU Judas of modern times, think or read your bible or Koran well before you ask your silly questions.

and the same allah claims his face is everywhere?

@Topic
Because muslim men like to enter from the west. Allau Akbar !! Now i'm in trouble !!!

I tire!

Pls peeps how are topix posted? i've tried but i just can't get it. On this particular issue, thumbs up for tellyb n davidylan . Making me so proud i'm a christian.

because they claimed thats where Allah lives

Lol @ Doris B,

I don't know how many Muslims claim that. Yes, the Kaa'ba is commonly referred to as the Holy House (or among some other users, it is simply known as 'Allah's House'). But then, Muslims do not claim that Allah lives there.

THx Kq, for your observation and contribution, but the reply of Telly B, davidylan and co shows they aren't here to get answers, rather they are here to mock, however my business is not to focus on their mockery rather to help those sincerely interested in topic.

@ Telly B,
U pretend not to knw u and your crew have being Blaspheming and not willing to learn, wht does your action and davidylan's action on replies portray, the fact is that u fail to reason along any quotes frm the quran cos to u the quran is baseless, so there is no point educating u. Afterall many of your points are frm the Bible, which is full of contradictions yet we have respected u this far not to call your posts baseless. Comments like

and the same allah claims his face is everywhere?

Abraham knew nothing of the Kaa'ba nor about the black stone.

We have heard this same baseless claims a million times already. If indeed Abraham built the kaaba, why are the jews ignoring it?
Abraham lived more than 2000 years before the kaaba was built please stop the lies and contradictions

and many more posted right frm the beginning of this thread. Yes u suceeded in making us reply u with such harsh tone u started, however I have no appologies to u as long as u launch unprovoked attacks on my faith.

Now to your recent questions:

# Why would God have had to set Islam aside and establish Judaism and Christianity
before coming back to Islam centuries later??

God never set Islam aside, all Prophets were Islam cos they beleived there is only one God, they were all however sent to one nation or the other except Mohammad (S.A.W) Who was sent to the whole world and completed the message others brought b4 him. Now God never established Judaism or Christianity, these are religions founded by men, Show me what portion in the Bible where God mentioned Christianity let alone proclaiming it as the religion he has ordained for mankind. Islam was specifically mentioned in the Quran as the religion chosen for mankind by God.

# What was the main reason why Muhammad was first facing Jerusalem in his prayers?
# What was the main reason why Muhammad turned from Jerusalem to the Kaa'ba?
# Why was the prayer direction not first towards the Kaa'ba but rather towards Jerusalem?

I'll not bother answering questions that have long been answered on this thread.

# why is there not a single mention of the BLACK STONE anywhere in the religious history
of Adam, Abraham and the Jews in their worship when you read the Jewish scriptures?

Kq already answered that

Prophet Ibrahim (A.S.) built it with his son ismael who had inhabited the area after being settled there by his father it is the Black stone that the Ibrahim stood on while he was building the house.

in addendum the black stone became significant after Abraham, since it was used by him (Adam came b4 Abraham. Secondly Islam is the complete way so it is expected it has more complete info than other books and also to correct misconceptions of other groups.

# who commanded Muhammad to KISS the BLACK STONE, and what is the significance of that?

The black stone was used by Abraham (A.S), a Prophet b4 Mohammad (S.A.W), so is bound to treasure it. Like asking why u treasure a pendant left behind by your grandfather (U probably treasure it not for the cost but for it's significance to u)

# why is the hajj to the Kaa'ba and the BLACK STONE nowhere indicated in the Torah??[/

First stop playing with words by emphasising BLACK STONE, the hajj is a pillar of Islam enjoined to be performed by all capable and able muslims, visit to the Kaa'ba is part of the hajj. It is probably not in the Torah because Islam concluded it all. It's like a series you only get to know somethings at the conclusion. This doesn't however make the people who followed the Torah then incomplete as they would be judged by what was on ground in their time (Allah knows best).

# who commanded Muslims to venerate the BLACK STONE in their hajj to Mecca??

Another BIG Ignorant contribution. Now read carefully Muslims do not venerate the Black stone, talkless of being commanded to do that by anyone. We worship Almighty God (whom we refer to as Allah) alone. And you know that, but just trying to mock muslims.

Finally, I say again that the question that started this thread has long being answered over and over again. U guys just wanna keep wasting precious time here. Hope I wont have to come back and address a closed issue anymore. To my Muslim folks whom have made out time to educate nairalanders on this topic I say thank you and may Allah increase you in knowledge and reward you abundantly.

@Flowjay,

Flowjay:

THx Kq, for your observation and contribution, but the reply of Telly B, davidylan and co shows they aren't here to get answers, rather they are here to mock, however my business is not to focus on their mockery rather to help those sincerely interested in topic.

If answers were forthcoming, I would not need to repeat my questions ad infinitum for your Muslim apologists to provide some answers - which they haven't.

Flowjay:

U pretend not to knw u and your crew have being Blaspheming and not willing to learn, wht does your action and davidylan's action on replies portray, the fact is that u fail to reason along any quotes frm the quran because to u the quran is baseless, so there is no point educating u. Afterall many of your points are frm the Bible, which is full of contradictions yet we have respected u this far not to call your posts baseless.

Firstly, I have not made many replies on this thread from the Bible - and your insinuation at first glance immediately tells me you didn't read through them before drawing such inferences.

Second, I'm not the one who inferred that the Qur'an is baseless. If anything at all, it was your Muslim translator in the person of Pickthall that categorically stated that the Qur'an cannot be translated into any language! What that says to me is that, if a book cannot be translated, what are we supposed to understand from it??

Flowjay:

Comments like

Abraham knew nothing of the Kaa'ba nor about the black stone.

Yes u suceeded in making us reply u with such harsh tone u started, however I have no appologies to u as long as u launch unprovoked attacks on my faith.

My dear Flowjay, please read issues carefully without letting your passions run wild. This is where I came on board:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-53767.0.html#msg1122892 ,

. . . and my first post was to Lumzi where I quoted Prov. 18:17 for his shortlived adulation to babs787. Throughout, I've sought to maintain balance and make sense rather than obscenities. Your bragado here is not going to help matters, and I trust you'd not be so rascally to begin what you can't finish.

Flowjay:

God never set Islam aside, all Prophets were Islam because they beleived there is only one God, they were all however sent to one nation or the other except Mohammad (S.A.W) Who was sent to the whole world and completed the message others brought before him.

This is seriously fudging the antecedents of history. Islam was unknown before Muhammad was born; and only in the seventh century did a religion known by that specific name emerge. Read more in the following links and don't let anyone fool you:

'Beginning as the faith of a small community of believers in Arabia in the seventh century, Islam rapidly
became one of the major world religions.'

[From Encyclopedia of Politics and Religion, ed. Robert Wuthnow. 2 vols. (Washington, D.C.:
Congressional Quarterly, Inc., 1998), 383-393
Online source: http://www.cqpress.com/context/articles/epr_islam.html ]
------------------------------

'Muslim history began in Arabia with Muhammad's first recitations of the Qur'an in the 7th century.

[Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_history ]


You cannot make a claim that is unsubstantiated simply because the Qur'an says so. The hard historical evidence in literary and religious study point to only one thing: Islam was nonexistent before the 7th century!

Just a little something to juggle your thinking:

# If Adam or Abraham were the first Muslims, who then were their caliphs?

# Why is there no record at all that Abraham was a Muslim other than as claimed by Muhammad alone?

# Since you claim that all the Prophets were Islam (Muslim), are Islam and Judaism the same religion?

# And if they're not the same, were Moses and the Jews practicing the religion of Islam from the Torah?

# Where was Islam when Judaism was born and continued among the Jews for several centuries?

You can't just make assertions out of blank galaxy without thinking through issues carefully. Just because Muhammad made the claim that all the prophets were Muslims, one cannot just swallow that out of blind belief when evidence reveals the contrary! Islam began with Muhammad in the 7th century; and not any earlier than that.

Flowjay:

Now God never established Judaism or Christianity, these are religions founded by men, Show me what portion in the Bible where God mentioned Christianity let alone proclaiming it as the religion he has ordained for mankind. Islam was specifically mentioned in the Quran as the religion chosen for mankind by God.

This is simply arguing out of blindness. Just because they were not mentioned by name does not mean that the faiths of Jews and Christians should be thrown overboard! Most of the things Muslims believe in today are NOT in the Qur'an at all; and of those that are fetched from the Hadith, they're even all the more confused as to which hadiths are authentic and which are fabrications.

When you carefully read the Torah and the Mosaic Law, you come face to face with hard facts and evidence for the life and faith of the Jewish people. In the Hadith, it is recorded that Muhammad both handled and confessed belief in the Torah revealed to the Jews (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Bk. 38, #4434). What in the Torah signifies the BLACK STONE, the Kaa'ba, and many other Islamic practices? Besides, where in the Torah is the word "Torah" specifically mentioned before Muhammad confessed belief in it?

Just because the word "Islam" was mentioned in the Qur'an, it does not automatically serve as the monumental "evidence" for its being chosen by God as the religion for mankind. To be sure, the elements of the Christian faith are recorded in the Bible; and no one is arguing that the Bible cannot be translated, as has been claimed by Pickthall in his preface to his translation of the Qur'an as a book that cannot be translated!

@Flowjay,

Flowjay:

# What was the main reason why Muhammad was first facing Jerusalem in his prayers?
# What was the main reason why Muhammad turned from Jerusalem to the Kaa'ba?
# Why was the prayer direction not first towards the Kaa'ba but rather towards Jerusalem?

I'll not bother answering questions that have long been answered on this thread.

Where were answers offered since I've been asking them?

Flowjay:

# why is there not a single mention of the BLACK STONE anywhere in the religious history
of Adam, Abraham and the Jews in their worship when you read the Jewish scriptures?

Kq already answered that

And where did kq proffer the non-existent answer that you're reading into his post?

Flowjay:

Prophet Ibrahim (A.S.) built it with his son ismael who had inhabited the area after being settled there by his father it is the Black stone that the Ibrahim stood on while he was building the house.

  in addendum the black stone became significant after Abraham, since it was used by him (Adam came before Abraham. Secondly Islam is the complete way so it is expected it has more complete info than other books and also to correct misconceptions of other groups.

The question was straightforward: where in the Jewish Scriptures do we read of the BLACK STONE??

Second, the inconsistencies and abrogated verses of the Qur'an only make it an unqualified document to deal with its own issues before seeking to "correct" the misconceptions of other groups. That ribald idea is what is being constantly challenged, and up until this moment no Muslim answers have been forthcoming to defend the fallacious claims made for the Qur'an.

That the Qur'an is not a book that can stand on its own 'completeness' is attested to in two ways: (a) your Muslim apologists have severally told the Forum that the Torah of the Qur'an revealed (by the same 'Allah') are lost and cannot be found; (b) Muslim scholars continue to look outside the Qur'an for the issues mentioned in the Hadiths but not found in the Qur'an. So your claim here is simply dribbling away conveniently from the hard facts on ground.

Flowjay:

# who commanded Muhammad to KISS the BLACK STONE, and what is the significance of that?

The black stone was used by Abraham (A.S), a Prophet before Mohammad (S.A.W), so is bound to treasure it. Like asking why u treasure a pendant left behind by your grandfather (U probably treasure it not for the cost but for it's significance to u)

Are you not forgetting something here? WHO commanded Muhammad to kiss the black stone??

Abraham never used the black stone - it is not once mentioned in the Torah, the sacred scriptures of the Jews that Muhammad also revered. If surely Muhammad believed in ALL the revelations of the Biblical prophets, surely mention would have been made of the stone. But the utter silence of this is testimony that neither Adam nor Abraham heard any such thing. It is scandalous to try to castigate the Jewish Scriptures simply because Muhammad's reconstructed (and often inconsistent) utterances denounced them.

No one commanded Muhammad to kiss the black stone. The confession of one of Muhammad's companions on this is quite revealing in Sahih Bukhari, Bk. 26, # 675:

Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said: "Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone)
saying, 'By Allah! I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the
Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.'

Then he kissed it and said, 'There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off
before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.' 'Umar added, '(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and
we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal)'

------------------------------------------
<sub>**Definitions:
Ramal - Hastening, walking briskly and moving the shoulders briskly;
usually done by men (only) in the first three circuits of the Tawaf,
but not in the remaining four.

Tawaf - The circling of the Holy Kabah. Tawaf is done in sets of seven circuits.</sub>


So, where was the divine commandment to kiss the black stone? Muhammad's action in kissing the stone was not a commandment from 'Allah', and you cannot find it in the Qur'an. Umar bin Al-Khattab's statement in that hadith shows clearly that at the earliest stage of the black stone issue, it was all a show off before the pagans - there was just no reason to do Ramal (in Tawaf). This is hardly the kind of bland statement any Muslim would have had to utter if he knew that there was a divine commandment to rever, kiss and touch the stone!

@Flowjay,

Flowjay:

# why is the hajj to the Kaa'ba and the BLACK STONE nowhere indicated in the Torah??

First stop playing with words by emphasising BLACK STONE,

If you've got no jittery issues about THE BLACK STONE, you need not worry that I'm repeatedly calling the Muslim attention to the same thing they've been ducking.

Flowjay:

the hajj is a pillar of Islam enjoined to be performed by all capable and able muslims, visit to the Kaa'ba is part of the hajj. It is probably not in the Torah because Islam concluded it all.

Good. There's no "probability" there - it simply doesn't exist in the Torah because it originated with Muhammad's Islam and has nothing to do with the life and worship of Abraham and the Jewish people.

Flowjay:

It's like a series you only get to know somethings at the conclusion. This doesn't however make the people who followed the Torah then incomplete as they would be judged by what was on ground in their time (Allah knows best).

This obviously sounds like already conceding to your inability to maintain course. It is not a "series" - rather, it simply had no place in the faith of Abraham and the Jews.

Flowjay:

# who commanded Muslims to venerate the BLACK STONE in their hajj to Mecca??

Another BIG Ignorant contribution.

Thank you. Just simply answer the question all the same.

Flowjay:

Now read carefully Muslims do not venerate the Black stone, talkless of being commanded to do that by anyone.

Carefully look again at what Umar bin Al-Khattab said in Sahih Bukhari, Bk. 26, # 675. Muhammad kissed that stone, and his companions saw no reason why he did so. I knew people like you would fall for your own noose! If NO ONE commanded Muslims or Muhammad to kiss the black stone, and history records in the Muslim holy books that they did, what are you trying to claim here?

Besides, what did you state earlier? See again:

Flowjay:

Like asking why u treasure a pendant left behind by your grandfather (U probably treasure it not for the cost but for it's significance to u)

So, what is the significance that is taking you guys forever to tell us plainly? I have surprises for you when you come back playing your rascal games with me.

Flowjay:

We worship Almighty God (whom we refer to as Allah) alone. And you know that, but just trying to mock muslims.

I am not trying to mock Muslims. I'm asking for straight answers; and enough of the whimpering if you guys have none.

Flowjay:

Finally, I say again that the question that started this thread has long being answered over and over again. U guys just want to keep wasting precious time here. Hope I wont have to come back and address a closed issue anymore. To my Muslim folks whom have made out time to educate Nairaland users on this topic I say thank you and may Allah increase you in knowledge and reward you abundantly.

It's sad that your exercise was a waste. There are issues that continue to pop up on the same topic - and that is what we've been discussing here. Making unsubstantiated assertions does not mean that the claims of Islam in the Qur'an concerning the very issues here are any closer to truth.

The thread can continue, and I'll pop in between my busy schedule this week to see if the vacuity of thought still exists from your camp.

# Why would God have had to set Islam aside and establish Judaism and Christianity
before coming back to Islam centuries later??

God did not establish Judaism and Christianity. People deviated into them after clear signs had come to them from the Apostles of their time, Jesus, Moses, David etc. Islam connotes the worship of One True God and that is what all the Prophets preached. and that is Islam. So there is no setting aside of Islam and reverting back to it later. Islam has always been there and people have always tried to pervert it, but without lasting success.

# What was the main reason why Muhammad was first facing Jerusalem in his prayers?

He was transported to Jerusalem from Makkah during the saintly journey that God made him to undertake and during which the details of Salat as we have it now was communicated and enjoined on him and generations to follow. It was during this journey that all the details of Salat were given and that included where to face in its performance.

# What was the main reason why Muhammad turned from Jerusalem to the Kaa'ba?

Because God commanded it and who is Muhammad (SAW) to disobey his Lord. Who are the Muslims to disobey the commandment of God.

# Why was the prayer direction not first towards the Kaa'ba but rather towards Jerusalem?

Because that was what God wanted.

# why is there not a single mention of the BLACK STONE anywhere in the religious history
of Adam, Abraham and the Jews in their worship when you read the Jewish scriptures?

The religious history (written by whom). Muslim religious history tells us that among the builders of the Kaaba at various times include Abraham and his son, the Quraesh and even after the passing away of Muhammad (SAW), it has been rebuilt several times. Black stone is not specifically mentioned (in words) in the Quran but the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) did kiss it and Muhammad ( SAW) would not say or do anything except what has been commended to him. If Muslims do not know why he kissed the stone, that is not enough to say Muslims do not have enough reason to do as the Prophet did. We hear and we obey. Call us 'Zombies' for God and we will like it. Afterall, he Muhammad is best example to follow for anybody that desire peace in this world and in the hereafter. Well some dont even believe in the hereafter. Sorry for you.

# who commanded Muhammad to KISS the BLACK STONE, and what is the significance of that?

His Lord commanded him. He would not do anything of his own volition except God commanded him. Reason not yet known to me.

# who commanded Muslims to venerate the BLACK STONE in their hajj to Mecca??

Muslims are commanded to take the Prophet as an example. If Muhammad kissed the stone, worthy Muslims must try as a matter of fact to kiss the same black stone, especially given that some of them would only have just one chance in life to behold the stone.

# why is the hajj to the Kaa'ba and the BLACK STONE nowhere indicated in the Torah??[/font]

I have not read the Torah. But Quran tells us that Ibrahim did make a call for Hajj after building the Kaaba even as it was in the desert, deserted, and God promised that people will harken to that call throughout generations from all over the world. If you go on Hajj, you would be obeying the commandment of God as well as answering the call of Ibrahim if you are sincere.

# If Adam or Abraham were the first Muslims, who then were their caliphs?

Adam had Shittu, Abraham had Ismail and Yaqub and other prophets after them.

# Why is there no record at all that Abraham was a Muslim other than as claimed by Muhammad alone?

The fact that he called to the worship of One God is enough of a fact. At least Bible does not dispute that.

# Since you claim that all the Prophets were Islam (Muslim), are Islam and Judaism the same religion?

No. Islam is Islam but attempts in the past to corrupt it after the messengers had left such in the case of Moses gave birth to Judaism. But God was always sending follow-up messangers to clean the mess and turn people back to the straight path, Islam. That is the way of God.

# And if they're not the same, were Moses and the Jews practicing the religion of Islam from the Torah?

Of course, the Torah was revealed by God to Moses and in it was Islam, the worship of One God. Moses practiced Islam from the Torah. A section of the Children of Israel followed him properly without deviation and a section deviated.

# Where was Islam when Judaism was born and continued among the Jews for several centuries?

Islam continued to exist among the true followers of Moses and when Jesus cam, the same true followers recognized him and acknowledged him. But those that deviated rejected Jesus. and Jesus with John the Baptist (YAHYA) reorientated people towards the worship of One God and when they left, some clinged to this faith and others deviated and followed Paul. Such was the condition of the world until the emergence of Muhammad(SAW) and all remaining true worshipers of One God recognized him. And the religion was perfected through him.

May the Peace of God continue to abide with all true worshipers of One God, The True and Eternal Lord.

@nuru,

I'll give you time to go through your rejoinder and edit as necessary. You have simply drooled on what you learnt by rote, and there's no substance in your outlines. When I'm less busy in the evening, I'll help you come round to the core issues you've skirted around.

Regards.

Oga Nuru, this your momumental sobbing for allah na wa.  

nuru:

# Why would God have had to set Islam aside and establish Judaism and Christianity
before coming back to Islam centuries later??

God did not establish Judaism and Christianity. People deviated into them after clear signs had come to them from the Apostles of their time, Jesus, Moses, David etc. Islam connotes the worship of One True God and that is what all the Prophets preached. and that is Islam. So there is no setting aside of Islam and reverting back to it later. Islam has always been there and people have always tried to pervert it, but without lasting success.

First and foremost, Sango, Ogun, Ifa religions ALL connote and emphasis the worship of "one god", does that make them the religion that God established? Is "monotheism" the only criteria for determining what religion God established?
Christianity is ALL about ONE GOD!

Deuteronomy 10:20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.

It is Islam and mohammed who have mischieviously misled millions by reading 3 God's into the bible.
- What are the historical evidences that prove that Islam existed before the 7th century? Where is the lost injil and torah? Why did allah refuse to make a single reference to the quran, mohammed, ka'aba, salat, hadith e.t.c. before the 7th century?

nuru:

# What was the main reason why Muhammad was first facing Jerusalem in his prayers?

He was transported to Jerusalem from Makkah during the saintly journey that God made him to undertake and during which the details of Salat as we have it now was communicated and enjoined on him and generations to follow. It was during this journey that all the details of Salat were given and that included where to face in its performance.

Oga Nuru, even an idiot will not believe this fairy tale.   Why is Mohammed the only witness to his "saintly journey"? Why did the Jews in jerusalem not see him when he supposedly got transported to jerusalem? Did he go as a ghost?
It is funny that the details of the salat were given to mohammed on his alleged journey to heaven and yet NO mention of this monumental event is mentioned in allah's quran? Did he forget?

Glory to (God) Who did take His Servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque whose precincts We did bless, - in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things). Surah 17.1

Where is the reference to the journey to heaven and the details of salat? Are they in the lost torah and injil?

I was brought al-Burg who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof at a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait-ul Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 1, p. 101).

There is one major problem with this account, as at the time Mohammed claimed to have been transported to the temple mount it had ceased to exist more than 500 yrs ago!

nuru:

# What was the main reason why Muhammad turned from Jerusalem to the Kaa'ba?

Because God commanded it and who is Muhammad (SAW) to disobey his Lord. Who are the Muslims to disobey the commandment of God.

perhaps allah was dreaming when he made this commandment or he needed someone to remind him there was no temple in jerusalem at as the time he gave this bogus commandment.

nuru:

# why is there not a single mention of the BLACK STONE anywhere in the religious history
of Adam, Abraham and the Jews in their worship when you read the Jewish scriptures?

The religious history (written by whom). Muslim religious history tells us that among the builders of the Kaaba at various times include Abraham and his son, the Quraesh and even after the passing away of Muhammad (SAW), it has been rebuilt several times. Black stone is not specifically mentioned (in words) in the Quran but the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) did kiss it and Muhammad ( SAW) would not say or do anything except what has been commended to him. If Muslims do not know why he kissed the stone, that is not enough to say Muslims do not have enough reason to do as the Prophet did. We hear and we obey. Call us 'Zombies' for God and we will like it. Afterall, he Muhammad is best example to follow for anybody that desire peace in this world and in the hereafter. Well some don't even believe in the hereafter. Sorry for you.

I would have assumed by now muslim appologists would have stopped telling boldfaced lies about the alleged builders of the ka'aba. Adam, Abraham and Ishmael could not have built the ka'aba unless they lived for over 4000 yrs!

If mohammed is the "best example of peace" in this world then may the Lord deliver us from suicide bombers and terorists.

nuru:

I have not read the Torah. But Quran tells us that Ibrahim did make a call for Hajj after building the Kaaba even as it was in the desert, deserted, and God promised that people will harken to that call throughout generations from all over the world. If you go on Hajj, you would be obeying the commandment of God as well as answering the call of Ibrahim if you are sincere.

we all know abraham did no such thing if not the jews would be venerating it till today. Unless it is in your lost torah, i can authoritatively tell you that fairy tale is NOT in the jewish torah!

nuru:

# Why is there no record at all that Abraham was a Muslim other than as claimed by Muhammad alone?

The fact that he called to the worship of One God is enough of a fact. At least Bible does not dispute that.

Based on that, sango worshippers are also muslims.

nuru:

Of course, the Torah was revealed by God to Moses and in it was Islam, the worship of One God. Moses practiced Islam from the Torah. A section of the Children of Israel followed him properly without deviation and a section deviated.

Show us this mysterious torah and all will be solved!

nuru:

# Where was Islam when Judaism was born and continued among the Jews for several centuries?

Islam continued to exist among the true followers of Moses and when Jesus cam, the same true followers recognized him and acknowledged him. But those that deviated rejected Jesus. and Jesus with John the Baptist (YAHYA) reorientated people towards the worship of One God and when they left, some clinged to this faith and others deviated and followed Paul. Such was the condition of the world until the emergence of Muhammad(SAW) and all remaining true worshipers of One God recognized him. And the religion was perfected through him.

Where are the records of this in your quran? Are they in the lost injil too?

Tellyb and David,I'm so proud of you guys,it's good to read intelligent inputs.
This is one reason I have maintained that allah and God  cannot be the same
allah's agenda is totally different
Some ignorant folks start off saying "we all worship one God",no we don't .

The  Muslim allah has a different agenda,had daughters,he still accepts animal sacrifices which until recently he received a slaughtered ram annually on the kaabah.

Have you noticed that after the geography lessons,some "smart ones" have denied facing east but now are stressing facing kabbah.
Kabbah and East are not the same,at least we got that part cleared up.
So when Mukina tells me she faces East because that's the direction of kabbah,she ought to get back to her imam and show him the map of the world.

_{I just hope they are not going to waste anymore taxpayers money rearranging toilets to face away from kabbah}

Immediately i saw this topic, i knew it was another avenue to bash Islam and Muslims.Why don't you leave them to practice what they believe in and you practice yours?

@tng,

Immediately i saw this topic, i knew it was another avenue to bash Islam and Muslims.Why don't you leave them to practice what they believe in and you practice yours?

More politically correct statements. I guess we are to leave Osama Bin ladin and his hord of suicide bombers alone to practice their religion the way they seem fit - cold blooded murder of anyone who believes differently than they do!!!

@nuru,

I hope you can select your bits and piece from davidylan's rejoinder, and then see why my persuasions still stand that the typical Muslim response to issues is to argue from a black hole. I don't mean to be crude or sarcastic; but I still can't understand how you guys can afford to cheat on religious history and call that 'Islamic truth'!!

@davidylan,

Now I'm beginning to feel so sorry for these folks. They asked for "evidence, facts, proofs". The same have been proffered; and the best they could come up with is to label others as "ignorant fools"!!

Previously, I doubted very much if there was anything worth believing in the Qur'an. But now, from all that have been coming from our Muslim friends, I'm amazed to see how true is this verse from their Qur'an:

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans;
and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say,
"We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning
and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
-- Qur'an 5:82.

So, okay. . . Christians are respected for being intelligent people - and that is coming from their Qur'an!! And yet they have the temerity to call us "ignorant fools!"

If "ignorant fools" is the best that our Muslim friends can give to such scholarship as have been demonstrated in the many rejoinders pointing out issues to them, then we should really keep our fingers crossed for them.

------------------------

@TayoD,

TayoD:

More politically correct statements. I guess we are to leave Osama Bin ladin and his hord of suicide bombers alone to practice their religion the way they seem fit - cold blooded murder of anyone who believes differently than they do!!!

Well, the smoke screen is waning. . . and the usual politically correct crowd should learn a thing or two about what they hitherto had no clue about. 

------------------------

@babyosisi,

babyosisi:

Tellyb and David,I'm so proud of you guys,it's good to read intelligent inputs.

Believe me, I'm so blessed to find many intelligent Christian folks on this Forum - and I've been quite challenged by the insight offered in the many outlines and links you offered in previous posts. 

babyosisi:

Have you noticed that after the geography lessons,some "smart ones" have denied facing east but now are stressing facing kabbah.

Actually, modern Muslim apologetics stress the Kaa'ba and say very little about facing east. The confusion was one of the reasons why the 'qiblah detector' was manufactured. However, the concept of 'facing east in prayer' in Islam was the main claim just over two decades ago. Islam has come of age, and concepts continue to change in tune with the time.

And certainly, there are many 'Christian' groups (particularly the Eastern Othodox Church) that still face the east whne praying. The difference here is that, they are not laying any claim to facing a "kaa'ba" when doing so; nor do they derive that belief from the Bible. It is just one of the many traditions that has stayed with that and several other groups.

babyosisi:

Kabbah and East are not the same,at least we got that part cleared up.

Very true. And that was what I wanted to nail to its coffin before setting forth my main concern about the KAA'BA and the BLACK STONE! We have often been offered the smoke screen that those two issues do not mean what non-Muslims have been reading into them. Really?? And that was why I have been asking questions about what Muslims have not been telling us.

Bravo!!
n gwa babs,make u begin ya blabbing,long time

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans;
and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say,
"We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning
and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
-- Qur'an 5:82.

Someone needs to tell us exactly when and under what circumstances allah revealed this to Mohammed,who was Mohammed trying to impress at the time?
Could it be Mary the coptic slave whom he turned into a forced iyawo?
You know how allah was ever so ready with revelations to suit Mo's "apostolic" tastes.
Anyway,let me be quiet for now,at least Mohammed recognised intelligence when he saw it,that above,is the only truth I've seen in the Koran,if only the other slaves of allah can equally say so

@nuru,

I promised to come come back later this evening to tidy up your rejoinder just above; but perhaps you left as posted. In due course, I'll be bringing out a few concerns from them.

------------------

Meanwhile, just for the records. I've been quite concerned about this whole business about what direction a Muslim is commanded to face - not only in prayer, but also in answering nature's call.  

This is not about some playing funny with your cherished beliefs in Islam; but what do I make of the following inconsistencies that suggest that Muhammad probably did not keep the injunction he served upon others? Sample these:

Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number  0010
Narrated Ma'qil ibn AbuMa'qil al-Asadi: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him)
has forbidden us to face the two qiblahs at the time of urination or excretion.


Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number  0013
Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: The Prophet of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) forbade us
to face the qiblah at the time of making water. Then I saw him facing it (qiblah)
urinating or easing himself one year before his death.


Sahih Bukhari, Book 4, # 147
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: People say, "Whenever you sit for answering the call of nature,
you should not face the Qibla or Bait-ulMaqdis (Jerusalem)." I told them. "Once I went up the
roof of our house and I saw Allah's Apostle answering the call of nature while sitting on two
bricks facing Bait-ul-Maqdis (Jerusalem) (but there was a screen covering him.'
(FatehAl-Bari, Page 258, Vol. 1).


Sahih Bukhari, Book 4, # 150
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I went up to the roof of Hafsa's house for some job and I saw
Allah's Apostle answering the call of nature facing Sham (Syria, Jordan, Palestine and
Lebanon regarded as one country) with his back towards the Qibla. (See Hadith No. 147).


Could you help shed some light on these seemingly contradicting adventures?

Madam babyosisi, the Lord is our strength o!

@ Telly B, na wa for this apostle of allah. Do as i say but not as i do! I don tire for this kain dribbling.