OlaoChi:


This same metaphysical was insulting Hati31

You are calling him Àgbàlagbà (elder)
Elder kọ̀ Elf lọ bá jẹ. What elder says "fuvk you punk" to another person just because he doesn't have answers to prove his myth is better than Ethiopian myth

Let me tell you something. In nairaland there are people that will take what you said as ordinary banter and reply you with omoale back and fight with you on net. Its not everybody here that are like you and i. If you tell me omoale you sef go hear am from reply wey i go give u. But noy everyone is like us. Its your job to differentiate and know how u talk to people. You can aleays know when to back off if you insult person once, twice, three times and their response is always respectful and calm....that person is not the type you should keep insulting, return the respect. Simple! When the person even warn you say dont do it and then you did again you have given that person the right to attack you in any way fashion or form. You see you Ibos dont know that if you attack a person you arm them to come at you.....and you cannot dictate how their retaliation will be carried out.

I will call you Ibo cause thats what you are. You can insult me, im not metaphysical i wll give to you in doublefold.

Go back and read that man as many times he cautioned you to be humble. Go back and read his posts. Even nairaland mods sef go gree say you were wrong in the way you talked to that guy. Get sense my brother.

BabaRamota1980:


Let me tell you something. In nairaland there are people that will take what you said as ordinary banter and reply you with omoale back and fight with you on net. Its not everybody here that are like you and i. If you tell me omoale you sef go hear am from reply wey i go give u. But noy everyone is like us. Its your job to differentiate and know how u talk to people. You can aleays know when to back off if you insult person once, twice, three times and their response is always respectful and calm....that person is not the type you should keep insulting, return the respect. Simple! When the person even warn you say dont do it and then you did again you have given that person the right to attack you in any way fashion or form. You see you Ibos dont know that if you attack a person you arm them to come at you.....and you cannot dictate how their retaliation will be carried out.

I will call you Ibo cause thats what you are. You can insult me, im not metaphysical i wll give to you in doublefold.

Go back and read that man as many times he cautioned you to be humble. Go back and read his posts. Even nairaland mods sef go gree say you were wrong in the way you talked to that guy. Get sense my brother.

I didnt mean it as a banter, I dont banter. What you people are doing here can be grievous..many people still rely on internet for all their knowledge on Yoruba, when they start reading claims of Yoruba having Semitic origins without being challenged or questioned for evidence you will find that Yoruba identity would have been Sabotaged and its history lost...take a look at Igbos, a total mess with all that Hebrew origin nonsense that is very popular among them, hardly will you find an igbo person that knows any Igbo history. Yoruba cannot be allowed to be like that. If you come with any claim, be prepared to provide evidence or shut up.

Again stop calling me Igbo, My father is not Igbo and I do not identify as Igbo, I take great offence at that because i know your aim and reason for calling me Igbo. You cannot come here hypocritically telling me to not 'offend' when i warned you people not to call me Igbo severally, that is an attempt to discredit my personality - a very foul play, that is insult and he attacked me first but your bias self being of the same 'Semitic origin theory' as him will not say the truth. You can call your mods... Calling me Igbo is telling me I don't know my father, so stop trying to be pretentious, it falls flat

Fact remains I am more Yoruba than you all who deny your Yoruba ancestors. And it is not a lie that a man who doesn't know his father is a bastard, i never called anyone bastard directly, he knows that he cannot defend his claims that is why he resorted to curses
shows that he cant deal with being questioned, it shows that he cannot prove Arabs are his fathers. Of course lies cannot stand the test of time, and when liars are faced with challenge they melt

OlaoChi:


I didnt mean it as a banter, I dont banter. What you people are doing here can be grievous..many people still rely on internet for all their knowledge on Yoruba history, when they start reading claims of Yoruba having Semitic origins without being challenged or questioned for evidence you will find that Yoruba identity would have been Sabotaged and its history lost...take a look at Igbos, a total mess with all that Hebrew origin nonsense that is very popular among them, hardly will you find an igbo person that knows any Igbo history. Yoruba cannot be allowed to be like that. If you come with any claim, be prepared to provide evidence or shut up.

Again stop calling me Igbo, My father is not Igbo and I do not identify as Igbo, I take great offence at that because i know your aim and reason for calling me Igbo. You cannot come here hypocritically telling me to not 'offend' when i warned you people not to call me Igbo severally, that is an attempt to discredit my personality - a very foul play, that is insult and he attacked me first but your bias self being of the same 'Semitic origin theory' as him will not say the truth. You can call your mods... Calling me Igbo is telling me I don't know my father, so stop trying to be pretentious, it falls flat

Fact remains I am more Yoruba than you all who deny your Yoruba ancestors. And it is not a lie that a man who doesn't know his father is a bastard, i never called anyone bastard directly, he knows that he cannot defend his claims that is why he resorted to curses
shows that he cant deal with being questioned, it shows that he cannot prove Arabs are his fathers. Of course lies cannot stand the test of time, and when liars are faced with challenge they melt

That guy has been here aand had debates with guys that are far superior than you in terms of knowledge, exposure and accomplishments and the debate did not enter into gutter. They remained opposed from beginning to end and with decorum and respect across.

This is why to me you will be omo ibo, you exhibit all the characteristics of Ibos on nairaland.

1. You are offensively loud
2. You do not display Omoluabi
3. Instead of attack points you attack Yorubaness of your opponent and insult them for not agreeing with you.
4. You called a person older than you omoale and when warned you did not desist.
5. You failed to provide tangible Yoruba values outside of what is available on internet.
6. You failed to define laba or provide the essence of sigidi
7. You discredit great Yoruba scholars and disrepute their achievements because it does not support your argument.

You see that last one, thats unforgiveable. Macof, the hardcore Yoruba aborigene activist, in all the times Ive listened to him and followrd him, that guy will never yield an inch of ground to the Yoruba migrant people but........you will never ever ever hear him disrepute any Yoruba scholar whether on his side or on oppositr side. Same goes for 9jacrip, terracota and a host of them.

Even if you are yoruba, your attitude and ways do not concile with us....then you are asking us to see Yoruba on same scale with yanminri. Are you crazy? When you add ibo here you see my red eyes.

BabaRamota1980:


People like him with claimed knowledge should be assisting his kins in Ngwaland to open threads and showcase Ibo history instead of jumping ln Yoruba thread. I saw his many attempts trying to link Yoruba with Ibo. They have no history so they use us to attain significance.

Im glad you and metaphysical refused to address anything Ibo in here. This is Yoruba.

Hey olaochi if you want to highlight what Oduyoye said about Ibo, open a thread biko so Ibo historians can join with you.

He said, he is Yoruba! I don't know ,which is which but certainly he blunders a lot. I wonder, if Ibos as an ethnicity is so small that researchers didn't see, before the comparison and contrast of yorubas with many groups/ethnicity even with Ibos . And there is nowhere that yoruba genome fit as same ancestry with Ibos.Yet Yoruba had been found to Netherlands genome. And recently, Yoruba have been acknowledged as having Homo heidelbergensis that probably exised thousands of years ago and could be the specie that contributed the unknown eight ( 8 ) % percentage into Yoruba genome.

BabaRamota1980:


That guy has been here aand had debates with guys that are far superior than you in terms of knowledge, exposure and accomplishments and the debate did not enter into gutter. They remained opposed from beginning to end and with decorum and respect across.

This is why to me you will be omo ibo, you exhibit all the characteristics of Ibos on nairaland.

1. You are offensively loud
2. You do not display Omoluabi
3. Instead of attack points you attack Yorubaness of your opponent and insult them for not agreeing with you.
4. You called a person older than you omoale and when warned you did not desist.
5. You failed to provide tangible Yoruba values outside of what is available on internet.
6. You failed to define laba or provide the essence of sigidi
7. You discredit great Yoruba scholars and disrepute their achievements because it does not support your argument.

You see that last one, thats unforgiveable. Macof, the hardcore Yoruba aborigene activist, in all the times Ive listened to him and followrd him, that guy will never yield an inch of ground to the Yoruba migrant people but........you will never ever ever hear him disrepute any Yoruba scholar whether on his side or on oppositr side. Same goes for 9jacrip, terracota and a host of them.

Even if you are yoruba, your attitude and ways do not concile with us....then you are asking us to see Yoruba on same scale with yanminri. Are you crazy? When you add ibo here you see my red eyes.

I think his matrilineal grandpa or something is Ibo.

Take it easy on him . He is just being naive.

OlaoChi:

This is what you get when you lack proper Education

Read the screenshot properly and ask those around you if you cant comprehend the underlined words

I don't lack proper Education sonny. You are the one that need do better or humbly proof our works/ research wrong. Imaging what you did OlaOchi? You are not agreeing to JOSEPH GREENBERG, a man vast in linguistics any more?Come off it dear.



We don't dislike you but want you to exhibit a real Omoluabi's attitude, even when you have a point to share. Mind you, Hamitic being used by Greenberg's analysis even cover what you sent . After all, he made it a reference in his research that the classifiers lumped a lot of languages together and which need not be so but because of their rush to make a point on Africa languages. So take it easy and learn from the hidden mystery some of us who are willing to share.

Olu317:
He said, he is Yoruba! I don't know ,which is which but certainly he blunders a lot. I wonder, if Ibo is so small that researchers didn't see, their genome ,having 8% of

Its possible he has cogent information and very convincing points....he ruined it all with his offensive approach.

Nobody in this region can match what Yoruba has. Everybody else in the region are alike, except Yoruba, and the difference come from the Afroasia input. That input is what metaphysical uses to advance his arguments. He ignores completely all the razzmatazz about carbon dating and dna and archeology and attacks straight on the teligious and spiritual practices and belief systems.

Let me share what metaphysical once told me to convince me to his side.

He says
When England colonized us they did not use archelogy, no dna, no carbon dating, no scholarship. They used religion, spiritual beliefs and language to colonize us.
We will need to decolonize ourselves through same avenur, not with carbon dating and dna or other nonsense waved around and called scholarship.

This is what made me a believer in the Yoruba migrant story.

BabaRamota1980:


That guy has been here aand had debates with guys that are far superior than you in terms of knowledge, exposure and accomplishments and the debate did not enter into gutter. They remained opposed from beginning to end and with decorum and respect across.

But i was offended first. I already said it before that i dont identify as Igbo, you people wanted to imply that i am Igbo and have no say in Yoruba matters, you know that is foul play

Although i did not call anybody bastard directly, i did imply it and i am sorry. But if you have been able to prove you are Hebrews or Arabs since last week you wouldn't have taken offence. I said a man who doesnt know his father is a bastard, by taking offence you agree that you do not know your father

It is also a lie that he has not been engaged in throwing abusive words, he called Hati31 a Punk

This is why to me you will be omo ibo, you exhibit all the characteristics of Ibos on nairaland.

1. You are offensively loud
2. You do not display Omoluabi
3. Instead of attack points you attack Yorubaness of your opponent and insult them for not agreeing with you.
4. You called a person older than you omoale and when warned you did not desist.
5. You failed to provide tangible Yoruba values outside of what is available on internet.
6. You failed to define laba or provide the essence of sigidi
7. You discredit great Yoruba scholars and disrepute their achievements because it does not support your argument.

1. https://www.nairaland.com/4477500/oba-benin-visits-ooni-ife/99#68666141 In this thread You and Olu have been attacking Edos, in many other threads you attack Igbos. I do not attack people. You are offensive not me.

2. Anybody that does what you dont like is not Omoluabi, you Hebrews and Arabs throw this "Omoluabi" around as a weapon when you are guilty of the same thing you accuse someone of...are you displaying omoluabi by lying and insulting me? We can only accuse eachother of not displaying omoluabi, as far as i am concerned omoluabi is subjective.

3. I addressed every point, it is because I do it so well that you people are frustrated and angered, I have a reply for every falsehood. You people are the ones leaving questions unanswered and are too ashamed to admit when you dont have answers. You are the ones that attacked my Yorubaness, you said I am Igbo. If i say you are not proper Yoruba, I said that in context of having a complex and sentiment towards the people who gave you your religions, that is why no traditionalist would say Yoruba are Hebrews or Arabs. You are not Yoruba at mind, you are trying to be here and there at the same thing, a conflict of loyalty, If Yorubaland was a sovereign state people like you can betray the country and commit treason in favor of Middle eastern countries because it is obvious you hold Arabs and Hebrews to highest esteem...Its because of your religion

4. You do not know my age and Metaphysical not an elder, no elderly persons says 'fuvk you punk' stop licking his ass, be your own man.

5. Did i post any false information? If i get my information from Internet, was any false? I refrain from making my own claims, if i start giving you information you cannot verify how credible does that make me? You expect me to be like Metaphysical and Olu who invent History? You people make claims, ok prove it, you cannot..I just tell you what Scholars have proven, what all Institutions accept as fact. Point out any falsehood from me!

6. I answered your questions on Laba and Shigidi dont lie. Now how do Laba and Shigidi connect to Hebrews?

7. Metaphysical mentioned Oduyoye and Lucas, tell me one University that they have lectured? One Institute that endorsed that work? Oduyoye said all Nigerians have semitic connection, you say it is only Yoruba...have you not seen you and Metaphysics are saying what Oduyoye didnt say

You see that last one, thats unforgiveable. Macof, the hardcore Yoruba aborigene activist, in all the times Ive listened to him and followrd him, that guy will never yield an inch of ground to the Yoruba migrant people but........you will never ever ever hear him disrepute any Yoruba scholar whether on his side or on oppositr side. Same goes for 9jacrip, terracota and a host of them.

Even if you are yoruba, your attitude and ways do not concile with us....then you are asking us to see Yoruba on same scale with yanminri. Are you crazy? When you add ibo here you see my red eyes.

I didnt invent the idea that Yoruba, Edo and Igbo separated around 3000 years ago. The Scholars who did provided evidence and that is why all Universities of the world teach. Including Universities in Nigeria by Yoruba professors

Are they all wrong?

Olu317:
I don't lack proper Education sonny. You are the one that need do better or humbly proof our works/ research wrong. Imaging what you did OlaOchi? You are not agreeing to JOSEPH GREENBERG, a man vast in linguistics any more?Come off it dear.



We don't dislike you but want you to exhibit a real Omoluabi's attitude, even when you have a point to share. Mind you, Hamitic being used by Greenberg's analysis even cover what you sent . After all, he made it a reference in his research that the classifiers lumped a lot of languages together and which need not be so but because of their rush to make a point on Africa languages. So take it easy and learn from the hidden mystery some of us who are willing to share.

Joseph Greenberg was wrong to use the word 'Hamitic' but that was a long time ago... The word 'hamitic' is obsolete now, no Scholar regards 'hamitic' as a language group or race anymore.

Stop digressing though, Just go straight to post something on Yoruba being Hebrews


You dont exhibit Omoluabi yourself.

Hidden mystery? you are not even a traditionalist, what hidden mystery do you have? what hidden mystery of Yoruba 'idolatrous' traditions can a christian like yourself have? Are you initiated?

BabaRamota1980:


Its possible he has cogent information and very convincing points....he ruined it all with his offensive approach.

Nobody in this region can match what Yoruba has. Everybody else in the region are alike, except Yoruba, and the difference come from the Afroasia input.

I am not opposed to the greater status of Yoruba civilization.. But you need to prove that this difference is not just because the branch of the proto-Yoruba-Edo-Igbo group that became Yorubas were simply better organized due to right planning...Semitic genes is not what makes Civilization.. You have an inferiority complex, you have given in to the European and Semitic socialdarwinist idea that Africans are lesser specie.

That input is what metaphysical uses to advance his arguments. He ignores completely all the razzmatazz about carbon dating and dna and archeology and attacks straight on the teligious and spiritual practices and belief systems.

Let me share what metaphysical once told me to convince me to his side.

He says
When England colonized us they did not use archelogy, no dna, no carbon dating, no scholarship. They used religion, spiritual beliefs and language to colonize us.
We will need to decolonize ourselves through same avenur, not with carbon dating and dna or other nonsense waved around and called scholarship.

This is what made me a believer in the Yoruba migrant story.

Yet in order to gain confidence in yourself you have to claim to be Arabs and Hebrews. Have you really decolonized yourself? How is putting yourself under Arabs and Hebrews empowering? In order to fight the the colonizing effects of the Europeans and Arabs Africans need to totally push all their tools of oppression and seek Archaeology, carbon dating, Dna and Scholarship... Metaphysics is a Saboteur...imagine what he told you and you actually thought it made sense? How can an oppressed take up his oppressors tools and keep using it against himself?

Metaphysical told you to reject Archaeology , and other sciences but pick religion? wow!

^^^^
You are a funny guy, ah swear.

Yell me anywhere in the world ever colonized with archeology or dna? Anywhere....!

I can give you over 100 civilizations toppled with religion, belief system (doctrines) and language.

Metaphysical is a very smart guy, he never said archeology is irrelevant or dna is insignificant or scholarship should be abandoned....no he recognizes and acknowledges their place in human knowledgebase. Assuming Yoruba is aborigene what was its spiritual belief at the founding of mankind in Ife as Yoruba claims? Go see the post he made two days ago on that thread by prexios, i think its called origin of Yoruba language or something like that. Does this person look to you like someone not proud of his Yoruba heritage?

Hati failed to see where metaphysical was saying lets focus on the thread. He kept telling him "you are sick"....so the guy showed his sicko side. . I mean, i dont see anything wrong in that. If i say you are mental i cant complain if you show bring your mental in my face.


My own mentalo go come out if you try to bring Ibo in here on this thread. Ibo can do its own work of researching and debating its roots in Israel, its none of my forkng businees but it will not happen on Yoruba thread.

Yoruba is superior to yanminri and hausa and fulani.

GUYS, LET PEACE REIGN IN THE HOUSE!

Metaphysical,
Alaye mi, na Oduduwa i take beg you o. Se you remember how you beg me all of us in that Oba of Benin thread? Eehn eh, i listen to you abi i no listen? You don ever see my foot in that thread again? I left without a word to those bombastic rascals becausr of my respect and honour for you. I take God beg you, look, i dey floor sef dey roll...no mind this boy called olachi, na pikin dey worry am. Impulsive compulsive obsessive irrationality na hin dey worry am.

Forgive and let go baba. Eyes around the globe should not see some of the things here. Its shame.
Oju onitie o, wa kowa je pe.

Oodua a gbe wa.

BabaRamota1980:
^^^^
You are a funny guy, ah swear.

Yell me anywhere in the world ever colonized with archeology or dna? Anywhere....!

I can give you over 100 civilizations toppled with religion, belief system (doctrines) and language.

Metaphysical is a very smart guy, he never said archeology is irrelevant or dna is insignificant or scholarship should be abandoned....no he recognizes and acknowledges their place in human knowledgebase. Assuming Yoruba is aborigene what was its spiritual belief at the founding of mankind in Ife as Yoruba claims? Go see the post he made two days ago on that thread by prexios, i think its called origin of Yoruba language or something like that. Does this person look to you like someone not proud of his Yoruba heritage?

Hati failed to see where metaphysical was saying lets focus on the thread. He kept telling him "you are sick"....so the guy showed his sicko side. . I mean, i dont see anything wrong in that. If i say you are mental i cant complain if you show bring your mental in my face.

There is nothing smart about a person that lays silly curses on a faceless forum or cant recognize academic works.

Obviously since the assumed proto-Yoruba-Igbo-Edo group has split into 3 major groups over 3000years now the belief system of that proto group is no more, we can only find traces within the descendant groups which feature as similarities

Examples: The presence of a Trickster Deity Esu (Yoruba) Ekwensu(Igbo) who is a mediating deity between man and the Gods in both traditions, the presence of a Divination system based on the same basic divination tools Ifa(Yoruba) and Afa (igbo), the presence of the guardian spirit associated with Destiny Ori (Yoruba) Chi (Igbo). There has not been any particular study on Yoruba/Igbo traditional religion but African Traditional Religions are held to hold the same basic tenets like Ancestor worship, family specific deity, Masquerades as spiritual agents, marking the body with white chalk during religious rituals etc

Baba thanks. I responded to email. Modify your post.

BabaRamota1980:
Olu, where u dey, abeg help me beg metaphysical to soften. I see where he warned this guy to stop using vulgar words on him, but he continued, so i cant blame metaphysical....but this is open forum, agbalagba must exercise restraint and forgive even when small pikin offend. Add mouth beg this man. This is heavy stuffs, we dont want this on a discussion like this that can be retrieved by anybody and anywhere. Not good. Abi wetin you think?

Just saw this. I didn't see that vulgar words the young lad used on metaphysical at all.

Hmmmm! Aí fi bó'wó fun àgbá ni jé àiyé o gún n.
It is really pathetic seeing such.

MetaPhysical:
Baba thanks. I responded to email. Modify your post.

Kindly take it easy on him.

Odua a gbè wa l'asé Èlèdumàrè

@metaphysical: E jowo o. Ti aba fi owo otun ba omo wi, a o si fi ti osi fa'monra. I concur with Babaramota and Olu317.

Although I don't comment much but I follow most discussions on culture section back to back.

Olu317:
Kindly take it easy on him.

Odua a gbè wa l'asé Èlèdumàrè

This is an online forum. Take what easy exactly?

If he cannot defend his claims he should say so and not throwing curses

Olu317:
Kindly take it easy on him.

Odua a gbè wa l'asé Èlèdumàrè

geosegun:
@metaphysical: E jowo o. Ti aba fi owo otun ba omo wi, a o si fi ti osi fa'monra. I concur with Babaramota and Olu317.

Although I don't comment much but I follow most discussions on culture section back to back.

Na God we dey beg to forgive us all. Ese pupo!
Omode gbon, Agba gbon...oun la fi da IleIfe!
Diversity is the bedrock of Yoruba civilization!

OlaoChi:


I didnt mean it as a banter, I dont banter. What you people are doing here can be grievous..many people still rely on internet for all their knowledge on Yoruba, when they start reading claims of Yoruba having Semitic origins without being challenged or questioned for evidence you will find that Yoruba identity would have been Sabotaged and its history lost...take a look at Igbos, a total mess with all that Hebrew origin nonsense that is very popular among them, hardly will you find an igbo person that knows any Igbo history. Yoruba cannot be allowed to be like that. If you come with any claim, be prepared to provide evidence or shut up.

Again stop calling me Igbo, My father is not Igbo and I do not identify as Igbo, I take great offence at that because i know your aim and reason for calling me Igbo. You cannot come here hypocritically telling me to not 'offend' when i warned you people not to call me Igbo severally, that is an attempt to discredit my personality - a very foul play, that is insult and he attacked me first but your bias self being of the same 'Semitic origin theory' as him will not say the truth. You can call your mods... Calling me Igbo is telling me I don't know my father, so stop trying to be pretentious, it falls flat

Fact remains I am more Yoruba than you all who deny your Yoruba ancestors. And it is not a lie that a man who doesn't know his father is a bastard, i never called anyone bastard directly, he knows that he cannot defend his claims that is why he resorted to curses
shows that he cant deal with being questioned, it shows that he cannot prove Arabs are his fathers. Of course lies cannot stand the test of time, and when liars are faced with challenge they melt

Don't give excuse for your misconduct . A true Yoruba son that you claimed to be know that each word spoken or written for public consumption must be acknowledged that it is either, it has a negative or positive undertone to it . Then, you are probably the one, who relied solely on Yoruba's history from Yorubas authors whose knowledge are limited and didnt see the need to compare and contrast with other people's language and history, which has been made possible through modern day technology, in other to see if such antiquity is real, especially as it relate to AfroAsia link,in which the location is much around Egypt–Arabia–Mesopotomia's location.
So, dont give excuses, because ,you are not even 1/10th of my or some of us Yorubaness. Now, here are the things you need ponder over and give answer to or else quit this forum for integrity sake if you can't cope with evidence you see on here.

1. Do you so much believed IFA began in Yoruba land in south west Nigeria ?

2. Do you know ILE IFE of Nigeria is not among anywhere top three rated over the human fossil found in Morocco, Israel and Ethiopia?

3. Do you know the Ibos that you kept reffering to have claim of Hebrew's ancestry yet they have a TRADITION that REJECT EATING OF RAM?

4. Is it Ra land in Egypt or Oke O'Ra is where Odudua and his group was said to have descended from?

5. Who was the father of Odudua?

6. Why is Ram/ Sheep used as sacrifice for Ooni and ancestors worship of Oranmiyan as being used for lives in Hebrew history ?

7. Was ILE IFE in Nigeria, called ILE IFE before or after Odua and his group inhabit that location ?

8. Why was it,until Odua and his descendants emerged, that near Perfect King lists had a better record?

9. Why were difference in the facial look of Odua group dynasty and Obatala's, which were earlier dynasty which were seen in sculptors of human Head figures sizes found in ILE IFE ? If you dont understand; The Odua sculptor heads dynasty grew beards all over their own faces,while Obatala's didn't. Explain it if you have knowledge of it

10. Why ask if someone is an “initiate”, or you think you are the first to have knowledge of ILÈ'DI ?

If you want to exchange knowledge, do it right, always. And , even among the list of Yoruba words which have little connection with non yorubas or assimilated yorubas,still have Semitic–Hebrew words with same cognates.If you have knowledge of Hebrew word list you will find few ones that I posted in the list of Yoruba words and its near English equivalent, that I challenged you but you can't see them because you don't have such knowledge of Semitic words.

OlaoChi:


This is an online forum. Take what easy exactly?

If he cannot defend his claims he should say so and not throwing curses

This is my problem with people, who forget things easily . Do you just use word unfiltered or you just don't know how to read between, what you send as information online? I am perturbed at your defence, do you know why? This is because, you were the ONLY yoruba man,that used ,‘bastard' on this forum. Do you have comprehensive knowledge of ‘bastard' , in Yoruba's worldwide? You remained wrong with your usage, because, you reffered to us with a figurative speech manner. And you did this because we see what you dont see and know what you dont know. Seriously, you need learn to be weary of word usage,especially, in a forum where knowledge are acquired. The attitude you display is among the reason,where transfer of knowledgeable powers i.e coded words within Yoruba cosmology were hidden from many descendants and taken to the grave by many ancestors. Kindly imbibe in you,more Omoluabi's attribute.

Awon Àgbà àatijó won wí , ‘Éesó Péelée péelée ni òró aiyè'.

MetaPhysical:





Na God we dey beg to forgive us all. Ese pupo!
Omode gbon, Agba gbon...oun la fi da IleIfe!
Diversity is the bedrock of Yoruba civilization!

Béeni. Amó awon àgbá tun wi pè , omodè ti o ba mo òwò wé lo n ba àgbà jèùn.

Odua agbè wa.

x

x

0balufonlll:


While I totally agree with your thoughts quoted above, you’ll need to understand that sometimes you’ll just have to let people pursue the views they find interest or succor in. Yoruba is blessed with the 50s history research scheme, we have a large part of our history in black & white for people who can/will read & for those who visit their hometowns, monthly conpound meetings are avenue to learn history and there will always be 1 or two person in a family who is a repository of history. If we would have gone the way of Ibos, I think it would have been decades after Johnson’s book but works that emanated from the Ibadan school of history eroded its effect till today.

The M.East origins of the Yoruba or the Yoruba origin of the M.East hypothesis is something I’ve disagreed with people on since my early days on NL.

You should please hold it at the back of your mind that the trigger of this Yoruba Arab origin theory has its basis in Sultan Bello’s information given to Clapperton which was in reference to Oyo-Ile known then as Yarba/Yoruba/Yoruba by other Empires in W.Africa. The application of that theory to Ife on paper started with Baba S. Johnson. In summary, the theory has a very BS foundation. [No insult intended to anyone].

You’ll also find that, looking back in time still, Christians/non-muslims began to ascribe Egypt or Hebrew origins to Yoruba. Those who have pursued this theory in literatures have always been men of the church. This theory has a BS foundation too; it sprang up to give Yoruba Christians an origin in other places other than Saudi Arabia/Mecca.

Thus far, these theories have been heavily recycled on NL but the interesting thing about the entire thing is that, the muslims seem to be the ones pursuing & propagating the Arab/Mecca theiry while Christians have been the ones pursuing the Egypt/Hebrew theory. Interesting isn’t it?

You’ll just have to be selectively blind to threads and the theories they pursue. I have been caught up in an endless engagement with people on NL and while some have dropped the whole Mecca/Hebrew fantasy, some are still hard at it and have continued to do more research on it - I wish them goodluck.

There are certain areas of every study that are off limits. Where Yoruba migrated from is one of them. Scholars of repute have posited that Yoruba folks migrated to different parts in the present SW from some location around the Niger River. Nobody has gone beyond that.

So, until a Pro-Arab, a Pro-Egypt & a Pro-Hebrew can conduct a research, put all of the evidences together in an academic paper & publish it in reputed any journal without getting their careers ruined then all of it is just an activity to kill time.

Thnk you. I was actually having my fun at the beginning until I realized these guys aren't out for facts and acedemic research but just sentimental attachments to where their religions come from.

I just hope those who rely on internet sources for Yoruba history would watch out and not believe everything they read from self acclaimed historians

OlaoChi:


Thnk you. I was actually having my fun at the beginning until I realized these guys aren't out for facts and acedemic research but just sentimental attachments to where their religions come from.

I just hope those who rely on internet sources for Yoruba history would watch out and not believe everything they read from self acclaimed historians

I figured you did not know you were up against our folks who hold a different theory which is OK. I have seen this thread severally & only left a meme one time.

Too much work has been done on early Ife/Yoruba history (although with gaps which is a norm in academic research) to worry as long as there are people who can/will read.

Please do not say Arab sand divination because that did not get to these parts until much later. Ever wondered why the only Odu that refers to Islam is one of the last 3 Odus? Also, do remember that the development of divination in Yorubaland was a process - coconut shells, agbigba, kola nuts, ikin, opele & cowries reflect the several stages that were collapsed into ‘Ifa’. Nonetheless, I would like to hear your thoughts.

Obalufon, Quite interesting! You have touched on something very critical to the whole debate. IFA is holy and sacred, it is mystical, it is a covenant, it is a patrimony, it is a record, it is unique. In modern terms, it is a database, held in human memory instead of computer memory.

IFA contains history, arts, spirituality, it talks about ecology, science, animal species, talks about creation, chemistry, physics, mysticism, esoteric, metaphysics, social science, democracy, diplomacy, authority, war, peace, domestic relations, parental responsibility,.....the list is endless! It touches every aspect of humanity, cosmology and the environment.

Here are my questions to you from the bold and also my outline above on IFA...
1 - The ending or last collections of the Odus touches on Islam. Is this a fact or your own theory?
2 - Development of divination was a process. What were the epochs, can you name three and their corresponding mystical principles?
3 - Several stages of divination collapsed into IFA. This ties with question in 2.....were they all same mystical principles but different processes and methodologies , or were these discrete principles that were outlived by a single IFA principle?

0balufonlll:




Baba please share where it began. Please do not say Arab sand divination because that did not get to these parts until much later. Ever wondered why the only Odu that refers to Islam is one of the last 3 Odus? Also, do remember that the development of divination in Yorubaland was a process - coconut shells, agbigba, kola nuts, ikin, opele & cowries reflect the several stages that were collapsed into ‘Ifa’. Nonetheless, I would like to hear your thoughts.



Do you know Africa as a whole is nowhere on the list of places where oldest fossils have been found? Do you know that fossils are dug out of the nothern hemisphere soil on the regular? Do you also know that the soil in Africa is corrosive and fossils sparsely found in Africa have just been ‘our’ luck that they were not yet dissolved?



Educate us, please.



It is Oke Ora not Oke O’ra. Oke Ora is a short for Oke Oramfe. The hill is located in the direction of Oramfe’s section of Ife. Like some other hills in Ife are named by the direction they are situated. I do not know how the egyptian Ra is probounced but I am 100% sure you not know how the Oke Ora is pronounced.



This is something nobody knows. Putting primordial figures aside, you & I like other people here can only go so far in tracing our ancestries. We may know of the sole progenitor but how about many who were in between before us? I do not think this question should be asked.



Oduduwa takes ram & Oranmiyan takes sheep. You can verify with traditionalists around you, Ram/Sheep have the closest potency to human blood in sacrifice. Oranmiyan taking sheep means nothing, cows, horses, goats have been used. No biggie here. Except your question is in reference to Oyo.



A lot has been ascribed to Oduduwa, a lot that did not happen in his period - before & after. However, no one can say for sure who pegged that name to Ile-Ife. What Oduduwa did was only a groundwork that would have imploded safe for those who came after him. I’ll leave it at that.



Lol Perfect king list, you’re kidding right? There is a lot you do not know about Ife history. We are all learning anyway. What I’ll say is the king list you consider perfect is way much longer, I mean way longer. And I’ll ascribe the king list to Aderemi not Oduduwa.



This is not true and it is also a misinformation. The style of art is basically the doing of the artist. The only thing distinguishing Obatala related art from others is the knot on the leftside of the wrapper. Are you aware Obalufon, a non Oduduwa related personality, had his related items found in Owodo, an Oduduwa related location.



An awo of Iledi will answer publicly or privately. Iledi is not to be lied about, the risk is too great and there’s no reason to be aggressive, it is either a person is or not, I think.

I want to touch on IFA and expose the researches that had been carried out without bias by different researchers.

First, IFA of Yoruba didn't begun in Yoruba land of Nigeria because, all the three most mysterious people that have infinite knowledge of astrology and one supreme God; Yoruba,Hebrew and Arab had knowledge of IFA of Yoruba, EPHOD of Hebrew and Khatt al Raml of Arab's ( science of the sand) . Therefore it can be said that history of divination is as old as humanity. And the account of Hebrew showcase the beginning of of geomancy, with a unique way of reaching out to supernatural power beyond human comprehension.

The history of Hebrew acknowledge EPHOD as being different from the description of the clothing of the Hebrew high priest which is in the Book of Exodus, which portrays the Urim and Thummim as being put into the sacred breastplate , worn by the high priest over the Ephod .
Where the biblical text elsewhere describes an Ephod being used for divination, scholars presume that it is referring to use of the Urim and Thummim in conjunction with the Ephod, as this seems to be intimately connected with it; similarly where non-prophets are portrayed as asking HaShem for guidance, and the advice is not described as given by visions, scholars think that Urim and Thummim were the medium implied. In all but two cases (1 Samuel 10:22 and 2 Samuel 5:23 ), the question is one which is effectively answered by a simple yes or no ; a number of scholars
who? believe that the two exceptions to this pattern, which give more complex answers, were originally also just sequences of
yes or no questions, but became corrupted by later editing.
There is no description of the form of the Urim and Thummim in the passage describing the high priest's vestments, and a number of scholars who believe that the author of the passage, which textual scholars attribute to the
priestly source , was not actually entirely aware of what they were either. Nevertheless, the passage does describe them as being put into the breastplate, which scholars think implies they were objects put into some sort of pouch within it. Urim essentially means guilty and Thummim essentially means innocent , this would imply that the purpose of the Urim and Thummim(Ephod) was an ordeal to confirm or refute suspected guilt; if the Urim was selected it meant guilt, while selection of the Thummim would mean innocence.

How is Ephod related to IFA ?

Both Islamic scholars and Western researchers did studies on Geomancy and the advent of it point to Middle East ,especially of Arab origin, which was claimed at first by western researchers that it was from Arabs. But Islamic scholars on divination pointed the advent of divination to the ancestors of the Hebrews,who was called prophet Idris, who was the great grandfather of Abraham .
In geomancy, there are three related divination that history acknowledged,which include: Ephod– Urim and Thummim of the Hebrew, IFA of Yoruba ( so also Mina– sub yoruba group in Bénin republic) AFÁ, (AFA of North Africans) while the Arabs call it, Khatt al–Raml,which is sand divination,in Arabic.

Method of divination?
Method of divination include: sands, cowries, bones,kolanut etc are used for divination.
According to the Yoruba's account ,the history of IFA started from Orunmiela, who was the pathfinder of IFA's knowledge. And IFÁ , being one of the oldest forms of geomancy, uses the same sixteen geomantic figures which is in the same Arabic mode of divination.

Can you figure out the reason for the same geomantic figure sixteen?

The Western researchers did research and have always thought hat IFA was either taught to Yoruba by Arabs or both Yoruba and Arabs develop IFA/(EPHOD) together at one time or the other because, the same pattern of sixteen figure divination exist in both geomancy knowledge

Can you tell us why such similarity if it started in Yoruba land of Nigeria before Islam existed in Yoruba Land ?

Guess what?
Despite the believe by westerner researchers that Arabs developed geomancy (sand-divination), the Arabs,themselves acknowledged the history.of geomancy–astrology etc through the ancient Hebrew ,because, Idris, was the first taught by God,through an Angel,according to some Arabic scholars.

According to history(seiss 1972,pg 150) there is the account of divination that started from Midrash account.

The Midrash stated that Terah, Abraham's father, was an astrologer and that both Midrash and Talmud described that Abraham wore a large astrological tablet on his breast. Each morning the kings of the East and West would gather before him to seek his advice (Joel 1977. p.150-158)

Cassini refers to Philo who noted that Terah, the father of Abraham, who lived more than a hundred years with Noah, studied astronomy and taught it to Abraham, who according to Josephus and others, taught it to the Egyptians during his sojourn in that country... (Seiss 1972 p.149).
The Jewish traditions say that Adam wrote a book about the creation of the world and another on the Deity. Kissaeus, an Arabian writer, says it is the teachings of his people that Abraham possessed certain sacred writings of Adam, Seth and Enoch, which describes laws and promises, threatenings from God and predictions of many events and that Abraham taught astronomy to the Egyptian priests at Heliopolis... (Seiss 1972 p.150).

It was also affirm historically that ,divination was brought by by the Arabs to North Africa in 9th century and which was called AFA in North Africa. So, also, Within West Africa ,no group can divine in the same formula with its sixteen geomantic figure except Yorubas without any link to the arrival of Muslims. And no record attest to how IFA came to Yoruba land in Nigeria or related form of Yoruba divination – geomancy being practice in other African tribes or ethnicity were all different?

Why?
It is because, the origin of IFA didn't exist in Africa until Yoruba brought it from Middle East,which was taken to North Africa and called AFA in 9th century before Yorubas settlement in West Africa,which is the reason that only Yoruba related group can understand the sixteen geomantic figure for divination as being found among Yoruba.

The point here is that divination existed before the settlement in Yoruba land. .

Olu,
If you don't mind me adding a little more to that to further support your point.


http://www.rybn.org/ANTI/ADMXI/documentation/ALGORITHM_DOCUMENTATION/GPS-MANTIC/GEOMANCY/PAPERS/1980_Stephen_Skinner_-_Terrestrial_Astrology_Divination_Geomancy.pdf


Few excerpts from pages 20 to 28

So from Idris/Hermes Trismegistus the chain of
tradition passes to the elusive 'Tum-Tum'. Tum-Tum
appears to belong to legend rather than history, although
as we have seen his name may be a corruption of an actual
personage, perhaps Ptolemy, and he may not necessarily
come from India. For Islam, India had the same aura of
mystery as Egypt has had for Europe in more recent years:
consequently if it was necessary to give a subject greater
authority, an Indian source was invoked by Islamic
writers: Tum-Tum also occurs as an authority in other
occult writings in Arabic. Zunbuleven claims that
Tum-Tum'sgeomancy was written 'in the language of the
inhabitants of India'. Moreover, Muslim travellers often
made a pilgrimage to India, and 'to be an Indian, wise in
the. interpretation of secrets' was a common phrase, and
one of the ideals of the Brethren of Purity.
Halaf al-Barbari was next in the Arabic chain of traditional descent.
He travelled to India to study geomancy, where he copied Tum-Tum's texts into Arabic.

Abu 'Abdallah Muhammad Az-Zanati drew on al-Babari's work in turn to produce one of the
more complete geomancies of his time. Although az-Zanati's dates are not
known, it issuspected that he lived during the twelfth or
thirteenth centuries, as he is quoted by Ibn Khaldoun
in the following century. Az-Zanati's works have often
been reprinted in Arabic from the thirteenth century to
the present day, and he stands as one of the greatest
Arabic authorities on geomancy. In turn Ahmad ben 'Ali
Zunbul drew his material from az-Zanati in the sixteenth
century (when geomancy in Europe and raml in Islam
simultaneously reached their peaks), establishing rami as
an integral part of the world of Islam. Its special features
are examined in the next chapter.





Further suggestive evidence of the direct connexion
between rami and the divinatory systems of the Yoruba
comes from the presence among the Yoruba of a form of
sand-cutting, called by them iyanrin tite, which is practised
by Muslim diviners known as alufa who often referred to
the technique as bati ramli (or atimi for short). The
names of the sixteen basic figures (AI Kauseji, Alahika,
Utuba dahila, etc.) clearly differ from those of ita but
correspond to those given by az-Zanati. The order in
which these figures were recently given by an alufa, a
native of Zaria, is identical with that in which they are
listed by az-Zanati, Although this system of the alufa
may be a recent introduction of Islamic geomancy, the
local parallels in practice between it and ita help to
confirm the Muslim origin of the latter.
The practitioners of ifa divination rely upon extensive
verses which are memorized and recited in response to
the generation of a particular geomantic figure: traces of
such verses exist in Islamic raml, but not the propitiatory
sacrifices which are of such central importance to ifa. On
the positive side, sand-cutting is sometimes used rather
than the throwing of seeds to generate a figure in both
ifa and rami, and the whole mathematics of addition of
odds and evens, the shapes of the figures, and some
meanings are identical.

Burton and Maupoil 13 both came to the conclusion that
ifa, fa divination and sikidy (in Madagascar) are all derived
from Islamic geomancy. Considering the trade routes and
general expansion of Islam, together with the incredible
internal similarity, this thesis seems to be inescapable. A
final piece of evidence is produced by Ellis (1894) who
says of the divination board used by the ifa diviners that
it is 'exactly similar to those used by children in Muslim
schools in lieu of slates, about two feet long and eight or
nine inches broad .... ', thus reinforcing the evidence for
the Islamic origin of ifa.14 It could even be conjectured
that Muslim practitioners demonstrated raml on school
boards whilst teaching the Yoruba other subjects. The
Yoruba then might easily have assumed that the board was
a necessary part of the impedimenta of divination rather
than merely a convenient writing surface. Farrow also
refers to the divining board as 'an engraved circular board,
or a rectangular one, with a handle, similar to a
Mohammedan writing tablet ...'.15 Although the
reference to the use of a Muslim type of slate as a divining
tray may possibly stem from a misinterpretation of Burton's accountof 1893, it seems a fairly .likely cultural
transition..Accordingly, in chapter 3 we investigate the
techniquesused by. the Yorubafor theirIfarelated divination,
and by their neighbouring Dahomean Fa diviners.




Returning to the world of Islam in North Africa, we can
trace the trade routes down the Red Sea round the Horn
of Arabia. past the Yemen and along the coast of Africa
down to Madagascar where the tradition of sikidy, which
is examined in detail in chapter 4, has been .brought almost
intact, with its original Arabic. names for the various
figures. ·The arrival of Arab .traders bearing with them
this technique of divination is well documented, and it has blended successfully with the traditional beliefs of the
native Ma.lagasy.ln fact it held such a sway· over the
imagination of the population before the coming of
Christianity, that the missionaries. responsible for the
latter found it harder to conquer than the ritual religious
practices ofa non-divinatory kind!
In chapter 5 we move north from the world of the
Prophet to the great school of translators at ·Toledo in
Spain, who were responsible for transmitting.so much of
the best of Arab civilization and science into the comparatively
backward Europe of the Dark Ages.

Euro-centric and Arab-centric biases. This ties in with the earlier discussions regarding ignorance and abuse with the structure and formations of language family and grouping in Niger-Congo. The above on divinations practices should be narrowed to just two forms of divination, Alraml and Orunmila. Note what they call divination in Madgascar, Sikidy, and campare with Sigidi.

Sikidy, Sajjadah, Sigidi - cognates
Alraml, Orunmila, Urim - cognates


I can't talk much right now power is dying.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, have you seen this before?
http://www.universityofafricanart.org/Image/Text/New%20Bibeli1.pdf

MetaPhysical:
Olu,
If you don't mind me adding a little more to that to further support your point.


http://www.rybn.org/ANTI/ADMXI/documentation/ALGORITHM_DOCUMENTATION/GPS-MANTIC/GEOMANCY/PAPERS/1980_Stephen_Skinner_-_Terrestrial_Astrology_Divination_Geomancy.pdf


Few excerpts from pages 20 to 28




Euro-centric and Arab-centric biases. This ties in with the earlier discussions regarding ignorance and abuse with the structure and formations of language family and grouping in Niger-Congo. The above on divinations practices should be narrowed to just two forms of divination, Alraml and Orunmila. Note what they call divination in Madgascar, Sikidy, and campare with Sigidi.

Sikidy, Sajjadah, Sigidi - cognates
Alraml, Orunmila, Urim - cognates


I can't talk much right now power is dying.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
On a side note, have you seen this before?
http://www.universityofafricanart.org/Image/Text/New%20Bibeli1.pdf

You see, most of our people ,who are lettered based most of their hypothesis on assumption , and when they see some glaring facts, they tend to turn away their eyes from it.

Orumile may actually be Urimm....This is because, urim stand for truth and Justice in EFOD/EPHOD/AFA/ IFA.
I discovered something extraordinary when I saw the name the Arab imitators called geomancy of Ancient –Hebrew/Yoruba IFA . Instead ,the Arab call it their own version, in which the divination is known KHATT AL RAML and DARB AL RAML ( Science of SAND or Earth) which wasnt called the same name as Yoruba's or Hebrew's or North Africa's enclave even when it was first practiced in North Africa.

I am tempted to believed with evidence before me that the Yorubas were the ones that took that Knowledge of divination to North Africa, because Yorubas had at one time or the other also lived in North Africa considering, the similarity with names of Oracular form divination and not Arabs didn't use such name to identify with sand divination.

Why do I believed Yoruba were the ones that took the knowledge to North Africa? This is evident in Yoruba patterns of ancient structure, water system, drums etc ,when they arrived in Yoruba land of today where they met NOK culture and pushed it away.

According to Leo Frobenius 1968:186–204) he discovered, the cultural practices amongst North Africans which were similar to Yorubas . Infact ,this great scholar mentioned that the Yoruba and the Atlantic culture share the following:

• Water storage construction systems. He emphasised that the style of houses constructed by the Yorubas was similar to those used by the Etruscans, Moroccans and Algerians whereby the Impluvium is built in the centre of the house whilst apartments with verandas are built in a rectangular form.

• The construction of their houses. Yorubas construct houses with ridge roofs that are similar to those in North Africa.

• The colour and form of bows and arrows used by the Yorubas are similar to those in Morocco.
• The North African hand loom, unknown in the Sudan, is found amongst Yoruba woman.

• The drum shape and other articles peculiar to North Africa are not found in the Sudan, but are found in Yorubland.

• The existence of the ‘Templum ’, amongst both the Yorubas and North Africans whereby houses are built round a temple or sacred building; even in towns, houses were generally built around sacred buildings.

Leo Fronbenius nailed the presence of Yoruba in North Sfrica but didn't realized at time because the knowledge of geomancy wasnt used as well nor did some few Yoruba critics that didnt realize that Yoruba lived in North Africa at one time or the other.
Recent studies has also shown that ancient Egyptians language has Link with Yoruba's. Apart from Olumide Lucas, Theophilè Obenga has also shown the evidence of shared words with ancient Egypt.
. Do you know the Ancient Hebrew pictorial Alphabets and ancient meaning were the Yoruba's after being interpreted by Western interpreters of the pictorial alphabets?
Let me hint you. The ancient Hebrew alphabet found denoted different signs. And guess what? over 60% of these words has its root in Yoruba's or vice versa. Let me share one with all of us.

Picture: Ox
Associations: All, elk, elephant
Sound: a (ah), e (eh)
Ancient Name: al or el
Modern Name: aleph
Modern Form: א
Meaning: strong, power, leader

Similaritiy
Yoruba
Sound : a(ah)
Meaning : Alè/ lè = strong/powerful/
Alagbara–/ Al– agbara= powerful/ strong

Example 1(statement) : Ègùngùn é lè (His bone is strong/ He has a strong bone)
Example 2( simile): Alè bì Ajèrè: (strong like/as Ajèrè)

It is disheartening seeing some people that claimed Yoruba's language's knowledge yet with no knowledge of the yoruba and the world beyond them.


Yes, I have that stuff in my archive.

Thanks.

MetaPhysical:


Obalufon, Quite interesting! You have touched on something very critical to the whole debate. IFA is holy and sacred, it is mystical, it is a covenant, it is a patrimony, it is a record, it is unique. In modern terms, it is a database, held in human memory instead of computer memory.

IFA contains history, arts, spirituality, it talks about ecology, science, animal species, talks about creation, chemistry, physics, mysticism, esoteric, metaphysics, social science, democracy, diplomacy, authority, war, peace, domestic relations, parental responsibility,.....the list is endless! It touches every aspect of humanity, cosmology and the environment.

Here are my questions to you from the bold and also my outline above on IFA...
1 - The ending or last collections of the Odus touches on Islam. Is this a fact or your own theory?
2 - Development of divination was a process. What were the epochs, can you name three and their corresponding mystical principles?
3 - Several stages of divination collapsed into IFA. This ties with question in 2.....were they all same mystical principles but different processes and methodologies , or were these discrete principles that were outlived by a single IFA principle?

1. It is a fact. There is Odu Imole; Odu Christian & Odu of Atlantic Slave trade. My theory is, they were later added to the parts of Ifa considering their positions towards the end of Odu arrangements.

2. I’m not sure I get this question.

3. I do not know what your contextual usage of the terminology ‘Ifa’ is. But my usage of it in the post you quoted in connection to ‘stages & collapsed’ referred to the fact that agbigba, erindinlogun, ikin, opele etc have different methodologies & processes yet they are all regarded as ‘Ifa’. Ifa is not restricted to Orunmila’s Ikin & the latter introduction of Opele, Ifa is all local divination system exclusive of abamoda related divinations.

Olu317:

I want to touch on IFA and expose the researches that had been carried out without bias by different researchers.

First, IFA of Yoruba didn't begun in Yoruba land of Nigeria because, all the three most mysterious people that have infinite knowledge of astrology and one supreme God; Yoruba,Hebrew and Arab had knowledge of IFA of Yoruba, EPHOD of Hebrew and Khatt al Raml of Arab's ( science of the sand) . Therefore it can be said that history of divination is as old as humanity. And the account of Hebrew showcase the beginning of of geomancy, with a unique way of reaching out to supernatural power beyond human comprehension.

The history of Hebrew acknowledge EPHOD as being different from the description of the clothing of the Hebrew high priest which is in the Book of Exodus, which portrays the Urim and Thummim as being put into the sacred breastplate , worn by the high priest over the Ephod .
Where the biblical text elsewhere describes an Ephod being used for divination, scholars presume that it is referring to use of the Urim and Thummim in conjunction with the Ephod, as this seems to be intimately connected with it; similarly where non-prophets are portrayed as asking HaShem for guidance, and the advice is not described as given by visions, scholars think that Urim and Thummim were the medium implied. In all but two cases (1 Samuel 10:22 and 2 Samuel 5:23 ), the question is one which is effectively answered by a simple yes or no ; a number of scholars
who? believe that the two exceptions to this pattern, which give more complex answers, were originally also just sequences of
yes or no questions, but became corrupted by later editing.
There is no description of the form of the Urim and Thummim in the passage describing the high priest's vestments, and a number of scholars who believe that the author of the passage, which textual scholars attribute to the
priestly source , was not actually entirely aware of what they were either. Nevertheless, the passage does describe them as being put into the breastplate, which scholars think implies they were objects put into some sort of pouch within it. Urim essentially means guilty and Thummim essentially means innocent , this would imply that the purpose of the Urim and Thummim(Ephod) was an ordeal to confirm or refute suspected guilt; if the Urim was selected it meant guilt, while selection of the Thummim would mean innocence.

How is Ephod related to IFA ?

Both Islamic scholars and Western researchers did studies on Geomancy and the advent of it point to Middle East ,especially of Arab origin, which was claimed at first by western researchers that it was from Arabs. But Islamic scholars on divination pointed the advent of divination to the ancestors of the Hebrews,who was called prophet Idris, who was the great grandfather of Abraham .
In geomancy, there are three related divination that history acknowledged,which include: Ephod– Urim and Thummim of the Hebrew, IFA of Yoruba ( so also Mina– sub yoruba group in Bénin republic) AFÁ, (AFA of North Africans) while the Arabs call it, Khatt al–Raml,which is sand divination,in Arabic.

Method of divination?
Method of divination include: sands, cowries, bones,kolanut etc are used for divination.
According to the Yoruba's account ,the history of IFA started from Orunmiela, who was the pathfinder of IFA's knowledge. And IFÁ , being one of the oldest forms of geomancy, uses the same sixteen geomantic figures which is in the same Arabic mode of divination.

Can you figure out the reason for the same geomantic figure sixteen?

The Western researchers did research and have always thought hat IFA was either taught to Yoruba by Arabs or both Yoruba and Arabs develop IFA/(EPHOD) together at one time or the other because, the same pattern of sixteen figure divination exist in both geomancy knowledge

Can you tell us why such similarity if it started in Yoruba land of Nigeria before Islam existed in Yoruba Land ?

Guess what?
Despite the believe by westerner researchers that Arabs developed geomancy (sand-divination), the Arabs,themselves acknowledged the history.of geomancy–astrology etc through the ancient Hebrew ,because, Idris, was the first taught by God,through an Angel,according to some Arabic scholars.

According to history(seiss 1972,pg 150) there is the account of divination that started from Midrash account.

The Midrash stated that Terah, Abraham's father, was an astrologer and that both Midrash and Talmud described that Abraham wore a large astrological tablet on his breast. Each morning the kings of the East and West would gather before him to seek his advice (Joel 1977. p.150-158)

Cassini refers to Philo who noted that Terah, the father of Abraham, who lived more than a hundred years with Noah, studied astronomy and taught it to Abraham, who according to Josephus and others, taught it to the Egyptians during his sojourn in that country... (Seiss 1972 p.149).
The Jewish traditions say that Adam wrote a book about the creation of the world and another on the Deity. Kissaeus, an Arabian writer, says it is the teachings of his people that Abraham possessed certain sacred writings of Adam, Seth and Enoch, which describes laws and promises, threatenings from God and predictions of many events and that Abraham taught astronomy to the Egyptian priests at Heliopolis... (Seiss 1972 p.150).

It was also affirm historically that ,divination was brought by by the Arabs to North Africa in 9th century and which was called AFA in North Africa. So, also, Within West Africa ,no group can divine in the same formula with its sixteen geomantic figure except Yorubas without any link to the arrival of Muslims. And no record attest to how IFA came to Yoruba land in Nigeria or related form of Yoruba divination – geomancy being practice in other African tribes or ethnicity were all different?

Why?
It is because, the origin of IFA didn't exist in Africa until Yoruba brought it from Middle East,which was taken to North Africa and called AFA in 9th century before Yorubas settlement in West Africa,which is the reason that only Yoruba related group can understand the sixteen geomantic figure for divination as being found among Yoruba.

The point here is that divination existed before the settlement in Yoruba land. .

Loool, OK.

I do not want to be drawn into a long winded back & forths with you and Uncle Metaphysics so we do not interrupt the goal this thread is set towards. My contribution was not to disrupt but to tap Olaochi on the shoulders only.

I’ll say that the problem with your thesis is that you think Ifa began with Orunmila & includes Iyerosun which provides the basis for similarity with Arab sand pressing.

Ifa encompasses several elements of divination that preceeded Orunmila/Ikin/Opele. Ifa is an embodiment of everything. Orunmila only took the ‘glory’ because he was Oduduwa’s Chief diviner when he coerced everything under his ‘monarchy’. All those we regard as deities used kolanuts, coconut shells at first; Obatala introduced erindinlogun which had all Odus from Ejiogbe down to the 256th that Osun also adopted. All of these were before Orunmila came into the picture and co-opted everything; the methodologies, the stories & so on into his own style.

Also, all cultures that developed to a certain degree had their methods of divination. Look at the early history of peoples & their cultures, you’ll see how local religion/divination developed from trying to communicate with their god. So I’ll say all cultures developed theirs independently but accidental similarities occurred and that is where it stopped.

- Please note that Arab use/d 16 & Yoruba use 256. Do not for a second think we use 16 Odus, we do not. We use 256. In fact, the first 16 are only popular because they are first lessons for a neophyte awo. When a person divinates, these 16 Odu rarely surfaces, you rather find the ‘amulu’ propping up with ease. The 16 odu popular in Yoruba are just there to prepare freshers for the proper divination struggle that lies ahead in the remaining 240 Odus. Restricting Yoruba Odu to 16 is misinformation.

- Also does the Arab divination carry stories with them to explain a message? No.

- Have you also looked at the methods used by both to interpreting a message that may crop of from the divination to have concluded?

- Also, if, according to researchers, Biblical stories (which Quran plagiarized from including Idris Enoch) were about 5,000/6,000 years ago and Yoruba had artifacts dated to very far older dates. Then why wasn’t it Yoruba who influenced Arab geomancy? Why is it Arab influecing Yoruba divination for you? Is this a display of cultural inferiority on your path/part?

- Yoruba contact with Arab was not until say between 17th-19th century. At least Clapperton recorded their presence in Oyo ile where they preached but where murdered later. He also mentioned that the Arabs were all over palace courts in the North. They played the role of magicians & diviners for emirs & for Dan fodio & his son that succeeded him. These Arabs went to wars with Jihadists to perform magic in as far as present day middle belt of Naija. What if it was this period little bit of Arab sand divination sneaked into Yoruba divination?

- An extensive study on Yoruba religion vis a vis foreign religion of Islam/Christianity would have shown you that when Iwo & Ilorin became Islam HQ in Yorubaland, Arab sand system & Yoruba divination stood side by side. While Yoruba alfas learnt sand divinations, they tried to co-opt Ifa in order to blend it in but the differences in the two made it quite impossible. Consequently, it became a trend across Yorubaland at some point for Alfa to divinate for clients using sand or Ifa. This is an evidence of the separate emergence of the two & the difference in the core of both thereby making it difficult to be blended.

- There are more questions, arguments & pointers but like I said, I do not want to get pulled into this. I’ll round up by asking you to please provide a source for the article you posted so we can see if it was written by someone who studied the entirety of Ifa in & out before making such claims.