₦airaland Forum

try69: You belong to a body mauled by confusion (protestants) except you don't wanna see it. Why is the protestant chrch not one in her teaching? In their own confused state, they take pleasure in faulting the one church and you see no problem with that? All because you have a collective aim - take down the mother church. Bad news is, God never left his church, she is growing more and more.

After attacking catholic doctrines and after much hesitation(only God knows why) to mention the true church which you claim you know, you only came up with deeper life?

A church founded in 1973 by a former anglican who once spites members for going with technology (e.g T.V). church without a written down set of believe? Do you know how many people followed a particular man (many still follow) until he woke up one day and told them to self service freely?

Do you @adsonstone know that you may say something here and mr kumuyi will say another if he's asked? Oh I get, then you will move abi? oh yes, the news is that has always being the trend for you protesters and that's why we have not one protestant church but millions. Do you know the mother church has always been one, apostolic and catholic?

I keep saying many of you man-made church members only attack catholics because we put out everything to you to see without fear. I remembered once that deeper life member never will eat "queen of the coast" sardines...lol simply because it has a name queen-of-the-coast SMH...

A church that from the attitude of people can identify sinners and saved ones (hypocritical), a church that make funny set of rules for members I.e two people to get married should not visit the other or sleep over in the other's residence.

I bet you, if kumuyi has founded deeper life before the 19th century, their members would be in the deserts by now just to stay away from the world and changing trends.

The day kumuyi passes on, you will know if christ founded deeper life or man because after a few years, the flock will scatter and that would be the end of deeper life. Do you have any idea how many such churches founded by men has seen their demise with little time? What happened to the church IDAHOSA founded?

I'd never be part of a man-made church, times have seen much of them and their quick demise.

Nice write up, its just like a fine piece of short story.

....but all I've seen displayed in it is criticism of a church, I'm not suprised anyway, all churches have critics even the Catholic and Othodox churches.

Regarding the bold, I never heard about any man who told his followers to 'self-service freely' as you quoted above.

By the way, you mentioned 'the mother church', now, how many mother churches do we have because the orthodox church also claim to be the 'mother church' and the 'one true church' Christ found.

italo: @ adsonstone,

Another set of facts:

Your "church" claims to regard the Bible as FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters concerning Christian conduct and work.

1. Your "church" is hypocritical. Because the Bible never say it is the final authority. And even if it were, that "final authority" clearly tells to hold to oral tradition, which your "church" is ignorant of.

2 Thes 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." Traditions! Traditions taught by word of mouth, in other words, oral tradition, and traditions taught by letter. Traditions which they are being told to "stand firm and hold to". Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

2 Tim 2:2: "and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." What we have here in 2 Timothy is an instance, in Scripture, of Paul commanding the passing on of oral tradition.

2. You are hypocritical. If the Bible is the final authority, like you and your "church" say, why cant you allow me determine what is true and false from the Bible myself. Why do I have to listen to your interpretation to know truth and error?

You claim the Bible is the final authority while assume the position of final authority. Hypocrisy!

3. You and your "church" are anarchists. Your "church" says the 66 books are the final authority. You imply that there are 7 extra books that are part of the final authority. Meaning that your churches "final authority" is not final. Yet you claim your "church" and yourself are infallible. Anarchy!

Tradition Jesus taught; The Eucharist, we follow that.

Other traditions contrary to scripture, we Ignore. Two opposing things cant be correct and God is never the author of confusion.

italo: Jesus' Church founded by Jesus in 33...

...While Kumuyi founded his own "church" in 1973.

You belong to the "church" Kumuyi founded, not necessarily the one Jesus founded.

Now you claim to be infallible and hold Deeper Life Bible Church to be infallible.

Let me give you another fact.

You and Kumuyi's "church" do not agree on what the Bible is.

Reason:

You say that "the Bible was compiled in the 4th century by the Church in Rome (probably Catholic)."

That Bible consists of 73 books.

Kumuyi says the Bible consists of 66 books.

If you and Kumuyi cannot even agree on what the Bible is, you both should not be taken seriously. One or both of you is/are, to put it mildly a clown/clowns.

Regarding the bold, going by your analogy:
Jesus found His church in 33ce, it started in Jerusalem.

.....and Paul found the church at Galatia years after 33ce.

The galatians belong to the church Paul founded, not necessarily the one Jesus founded......right?


Regarding the bible books issue, the compiled books consist of 66 books which there is no debate about, 7 books considered deuterocanonical or (apocrypha).
Those books are still a subject of debate among catholic, eastern othodox and protestants (some church fathers even say some of these books are not part of the biblical canon)
The protestants accept 66 undoubted books, Catholics, 73 books and the Eastern Othodox, over 73 books and even the Ethiopian Orthodox, 81 books.....now, does the Roman catholic church also ignore the remaining books and stick with 73 as authentic? Anarchy?

chukwudi44: Was 1 peter written to the galatians or not?

Did it entail preaching of the good news of Jesus christ?

The letter specifically mentioned the churches of galatia,pontus amongst others smh for liars.

I have said it before and will say it again; if you havent learnt, keep quiet. If you really wanna learn, indicate and stop being mischievious.

chukwudi44: Itk why don't you educate me.Did Peter preach to the galatians or not? Is the book of 1 peter telling us lies

Simple answer; He did not.

....and the book of 1 Peter does not lie, It doesnt say Peter preached to them, I dont know how you saw whats not there.
If you still don't understand (or still dont know who preached), Its better if you choose to learn.

italo: That is fact number 1, with easily accessible and verifiable evidence.

Number 2: Jesus Church was founded in Year 33 by Jesus Christ. You deny?

The christian church started (in Jerusalem), in the same year Jesus said He'll build his church, 33ce, thats right.

italo: Get over yourself. I said I didn't mean that literally. That's no denial.

Grow up!

I have nothing to say on this matter if you can't own up.

....and you mean I should grow up to accept a lie, right?

italo: I asked you what you were on this thread to say and your evidence for it, you couldn't say a word.

Now you want me to tell you what I'm saying that is worthwhile so that you can just reject it without proof again.

I will tell you one. With concrete verifiable irrefutable evidence that is easily accessible.

Your Deeper Life Bible Church was founded in 1973 by W. F. Kumuyi.

You deny?

so, this is what you have to say on this thread thats credible and worthwhile?

By the way, I'm not denying the fact that that the Deeper Life Church started in 1973 to teach in line with the scriptures or have you seen any of its teaching contrary to the scriptures?

There are lots of them in the catholic church which I'm still going to outline and we'll disqus them (wanna see how you'll justify them)....and that's exactly why I'm on this thread.

chukwudi44: Some people claim Galatians did not know Peter SMH.Peter in his first letter specifically mentioned the church of galatia amongs a few other churches.

1 Peter 1:1-2

New International Version (NIV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

bro, It would be much more better if you choose to keep quiet than post on what you don't know.

Read and understand in the context of the epistle. If you cant comprehend, ask someone who knows better to explain to you.
Peace

italo: We both know you didnt say Jesus danced bla bla... I didnt mean that literally.

you see what I'm saying? Denying the whole thing, twisting the subject matter.

italo: Besides that, like I said in the last part of my post, it is clear you have nothing worthwhile to say to this thread.

is that the answer to the questions?
How helpful is education to our nation...

This is the same thing you do when you see truth and cant refute it....divert from the topic, ignore or lay false allegations.

By the way, what have you contributed or said on this thread that should be considered worthwhile?

italo: Regarding the bold, how do you explain this verse.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up and said unto them, “Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the Word of the Gospel and believe.

And in that verse, he was addressing all the leaders of the Church, including Paul. Nobody challenged him.

I await you to twist the verse.

That verse is straightforward.
Examine verse 12 of that same chapter and tell me who actually preached to the gentiles.

....and consider these scriptures:
2 Timothy 4:17, 1 Timothy 2:7 and tell me if Paul was lying in those verses when He said those things.

By the way, I should even ask you, what exactly was Paul's mission?

italo: Your illustration fails you and corroborates my point. The Catechist teaches me but does not guide the Pope or the Church, which is the anomaly that you are suggesting. The Catechist receives guidance from the Church. The Church existed with Peter as its head before Paul entered the Church. Paul didnt guide the Church. Paul sought guidance from the Church to be sure he "had not been preaching in vain."

It's high time I asked you: who exactly is the church or what makes up the church because if you know these, you won't say these things you are saying (I'm awaiting your response)

That passage, Paul went to Jerusalem and met with the church leaders....what is the reason, its simply because he wanted to be sure if his teaching corresponds with theirs.
Note: when the church had controversy over an issue, they informed the apostles. The apostles sit together to resolve the issue and gives it to the church (they guided the church and not otherwise).

italo: Paul was a missionary and the Galatians knew him and didnt know Peter doesn't mean that Paul was guiding the Church. The Church was guiding Paul. When missionaries came to Nigeria, we didnt know the Pope, but the missionaries were still being guided by the Church led by the Pope.

You illustration falls face down!

Yeah, Paul was a missionary. He taught preached to people and establishes them as a church in their regions, he often writes to them or visit them to guide them.

italo: Another lie. When will you change?

Oga Italo, you can lie sha....
Ok, how do you want to explain this??

italo: You dont know how Jesus danced...yet you
claim to know those who dance exactly like
Jesus.

Hope you don't mind showing me where I claimed this?
Or will you deny it or call me a liar again?

italo: "1 Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain."

There it is. Twist it.

There's my explanation, oya, refute it.

By the way, is that how you were taught to answer questions in primary school (re-posting the question) nawa for you ooo?

italo: But the ones you said weren't Catholic have been proved to be Catholic na. If you keep lying that they weren't despite the irrefutable evidence shown you, why should I bring more evidence that you will continue to lie about. Show that you have respect for evidence and I will give you more. For now, you have no regard for truth and evidence.

He gave no evidence, he only said they worked in catholic churches or they were close to popes and with that, he labeled them catholics. What I mean is he has given no valid evidence to show that these men were catholics.

italo: The question was: Does it worry you that you are neither able to provide evidence for what you say nor evidence against what we say?(to paraphrase)

I think you have nothing worthwile to say and you dont know which direction you are headed...and you deliberately lack a focus because the truth which you should focus on, you despise it.

Now I ask you.

What are you on this thread to say and where is your evidence for it?

No, it doesn't worry me.

italo: Oh! Now Paul is the one guiding the Church? !

Paul is guiding Peter and the 12 who are the foundation of the Church?!

Paul is guiding Peter?!

Why should I use a watered down Bible version?

Jesus makes Peter the Shepherd of his flock (including Paul); Jesus tells Peter "strengthen your brethren. " Jesus made him the Rock.

Yet you make Paul the shepherd. The same Paul Peter warned you not to twist his writings to your destruction.

Your lies will end up driving you to blasphemy because you need 20 lies to cover 1.

I really think you should start a good study on the books in the bible.
Don't you know that Paul's mission was to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jew (that does not nullify Peter from being the head).
The Galatians were gentiles before Paul preached to them, He started the church at Galatia and they took instructions from him because he was the one they knew, not Peter.

Here's an illustration.
In your own church today, you take direct instructions from your cathechist, not from the pope
.

By the way, I've ignored the 'Enigma' part.
There's no discussion in it.
I think you have even forgotten how you told a big lie against me on this thread yet you keep saying I have lied against you (which I didn't).

Lest I forget, you said 'watered down' bible version. ( See the bolded above). Use your own 'unwatered' bible version to explain the Gal 2: 1-2. I wanna hear from you.

italo: So the Church Fathers are now Catholic. Before you said many weren't. If the men who succeeded the apostles were Catholic, the men who chose the books to be in the Bible were Catholic. What else are you waiting for to know that the Church headed by Peter is the Church headed by Clement of Rome is the Church headed by Francis today?

I put the catholic in brackets showing they were not all catholics. I meant the catholic church fathers (the ones who were catholics) affirmed the pope but I still don't see how those ones affirmed the devotion to mary, I'll like you to post an evidence or a link here.

italo: You are asking for evidence for the apostles' Marian devotion. Does it worry you that you have neither provided evidence for what you say nor evidence against what we say?

I'm going to leave this out till we start the discussion on the 'diabolical' catholic practices.

italo: Nowhere does the Bible tell us "The bible is the word of God." It is the Catholic Church that told us so.

Stop lying. I never said or indicated the Church is superior to scripture.

I only indicated that the Churches interpretation of scripture is superior to yours.

They couldn't have said so afterall, the bible is a collection of many books.
Did you study the old testament at all??
Don't you see in the books of many of the prophets stating 'the Word of the Lord came to...'. Do you need someone to tell you they are words from God before you believe?

By the way, I have heard you now.
We should also know that the church is guided by the scriptures (no argument abt that).

italo: It's like saying Nigeria is superior to the constitution. Is Nigeria competing with its own constitution which it put together? I'm not daft.

Just lies...nothing to prove it.

I so much love Your analysis. It makes so much sense.

Analyzing it, we say who makes up 'Nigeria'?
I guess its simply: the people, the government and the people that play active roles. (The land has little to do with it)

Now, the people have a head (president), and other reps at the govt level (senate, house of reps, govs etc). These ones make the law to guide everyone, they are not also above the law themselves. All offenders will be duly punished according to the law (including the reps the people have). Now, should the reps do things contrary to the law because they made the law? No, they will be punished. Or should the people kill themselves cos the law say 'hang offenders'? Or if they do, does that law justify them(since it is in the to hang offenders)? Only the law can kill, not the
people.

Conclusion, after the 'un requested' analysis:
The law (made by the nation) guides the nation, not otherwise.

italo: As usual, a false allegation. No evidence of how and where I twisted St. Paul's epistle to defend the superiority of the Church over scripture. No evidence that I even believe the Church is superior to scripture. It's like saying Nigeria is superior to the constitution. Is Nigeria competing with its own constitution which it put together? I'm not daft.

Just lies...nothing to prove it.

You asked me a question which read:

italo: Question was:
If even the writer, Paul, had to go to the
Church to be sure he wasnt writing error, why
should you the believe the letter and doubt the
Church that guides the author of the letter?

And your answer to that was Gal 2:1-2.

Now, I said you must have misinterpreted (twisted) that
part of the epistle to arrive at the conclusion that said Paul was guided by the church instead of vice-versa (Paul guided the Church with his epistle). I recommend going back to study (with a simpler bible version) to know who was guiding who. I helped you but here you are again with your normal false allegations.

italo: When and where did I reproof the "Enigma" on this thread? When and where was I exposed? When and where did I stop reproofing him?

For you information I have not been reading 95% of what he's posting.

It's obvious you have nothing to add to this thread other than cheap lies and wild allegations without any evidence.

You've heard the early Church Fathers affirm the Pope, the Catholic Church, devotion to Mary, the Sacraments etc.

But because you live for lies, you would rather say they are Deeper Life members than Catholics.

So give me a new lie to muse over. The old ones are getting stale.

You did not just reproof in a post, since he has been posting, all your posts have been the opposite of what he says (which is definitely a reproof, though you may not have done it directly or with intent to do so) . When I said you have made him a liar, I noticed how you stopped the posts that opposed his (though, maybe not intentionally) and have started clamoring on 'show me where I called Enigma a liar'

By the way, the bolded seeks verification. The (catholic) church fathers might have done that, the apostles has no verified claims that they did that (especially devotion to Mary). I'd like to see your evidences.

italo: I'm not like you who lives for lies. Here's your quote below. I have proof for what I say, unlike you.

And here's the reason I said so (the bolded in particular)
I have posted this before, still you choose to ignore and continue your false allegations.

italo: "When did a book become the basis of
Christian faith?"
'At what point in time did a book take over
the Church as the guide and who made it so?'

Is it not so evident that you take the Church's decision as the supreme authority of christianity even over the scriptures in the bible? Yet, you claim I lied against you.

italo: I dont doubt the Bible...because I believe
when the Church (the pillar and foundation
of truth) says it is Gods word and the apostles
wrote those letters. I believe the bible
because I believe the Church that compiled
and canonized it.

Here's your subsequent comment, it displays your choice about what the Catholic church told you about the bible than what the apostles say in the bible about the church.

You believe the bible only because you catholic church told you to believe it...yes or no? (This is a qstn I xpect a straightforward answer, mind you, whatever you say, your answer is already in your statement)

@Italo (The man that has all the integrity), don't lay false allegations against me. Read what you quoted, did I say you take the Catholic Church over the words of Christ? Afterall, when I asked you, you rather diverted (mixed up the whole thing) by saying the head of the church is not in competition with the church.
What's in that quote reads 'you twisted an epistle of Apostle Paul to defend the superiority of the (catholic) church's decision over the epistles written to guide the church' which you actually did. You don't need to deny, it won't help you.

By the way, I never even said you have been replying Enigma, I said you have 'carefully refused to reproof (speak contrary to what He says) since you were exposed.'

chukwudi44: Bros are you alright? Did I make any comment there are catholics or did I allow those men to speak for themselves? Did Jerome not call Pope Damasus the successor of the fisherman? Is it not the same Jerome whom you said were not catholics? Jerome was even a secretary to the pope.How about Cyprian who wrote a lenghnty epistle "On the unity of the catholic church" so after reading his writings you insist there are not catholics or you did not bother to read @ all?

You ignoramuses must understand that these men left us a lot of writings which contained their beleifs and any barefaced liar against them in the middle of this internet age would not fly

Haba Brother Chukwudi,
is it the same epistle that he wrote on 'the unity of the church' you have fraudulently included 'catholic' just as the other users (posters) on various catholic sites all over the internet?
Again, I'm not surprised about your twist.
Your brother Italo also twisted an epistle of Apostle Paul to defend the superiority of the (catholic) church's decisons over what is written in the epistle for the church to follow.

@Chukwudi44,
I am not surprised at your comment insisting those men were catholics since you guys also refer to apostle Peter as the first Pope and other apostles as catholics (just as you brother Italo said), besides, to crown it all, your brother Italo also declared the churches mentioned in the book of Revelation catholic churches so, I'm not surprised at your comment cos you guys find it easy to conclude what is not.

italo: For starters, I requested many things, including proof of your LIE against me. This is at least the fifth time I'm requesting this.

Lets see if you have any integrity left.

Why should anyone engage a shameless liar in any reasonable discussion?

What stops you from saying white is black or red is blue or Pope Francis is not Catholic?

You'll just keep lying your way around, wont you?

Like teacher, like student.

Now that you cant refute the truth that these people that arent catholics, I noticed how you divulged whats on hand (which you always do when you see truth) and resorted to the 'I said you called Enigma a liar' which you generalised after Enigma's comment by saying that protestants find it easy to tell blatant lies against catholics.

I also noticed you have carefully refused to reproof Enigma as you have been doing before you were exposed.

By the way, the bolded is totally unreasonable.

I've not really been having so much access here (cos of the issues I av with my phone), I'm just trying to keep up with the updates here.

@Enigma, thank you for your post. I learned from it.

Back to Italo, you requested the church fathers who did not have the same practices as you do (Catholic).

Polycarp
Jerome
Clement of Alexandria (this man's name was even removed due to the 'mago mago' of Pope sixtus)
John Chrysosotom
Cyprian of Catharage.

When you get back to study, read on this men and stop concluding what is not.

italo: Didnt you also say the Catholic Church probably compiled the Bible? How is it "cock and bull" to affirm what you know but are ashamed to admit? Isnt it you that should be quiet about something you admit you are unsure of?

It is from history that we know that the Catholic Church compiled the Bible. Or do you want to show me Deeper Life's concocted version of "Bible history?"

Go ahead! I'll read it

yes, I said the church in Rome (probably catholic) because the books of the bible were agreed upon and compiled as a result of a meeting. I really think you should read on the bible history.

italo: Q. How do you know Jesus ever mentioned "scriptures?"

A. You read it in the Bible the Catholic Church gave you. Precisely in the books that Jesus never mentioned but the Catholic Church gave you.

*yawning*..... same old story.

italo: Oh! I thought the Early Church Fathers should have been part of God's true and infallible Church which you say is Deeper Life. You cannot show us how they were Deeper Life members...and you cannot show us even one of the "many" that weren't Catholic. Somebody is learning how to be dubious and double mouthed from his boss!

Now Clement of Rome was the 4th Pope. How Catholic can the Church Fathers be?

I referred you back to your study on this issue (simply cos I'm out of my phone issues) and now, you are back without studying.

italo: I am simply saying tell me who told you or where you read it from that the Bible was compiled by the Church in Rome. Why are you always scared to expose the information you have to critical analysis? Isnt it because they are often lies and untruths?

Read article on the history of the bible on wikipedia, I also read it there.

italo: I noticed how you refused to tell me if God's infallible Church is the one that was founded by Kumuyi in 1973.

If you don't know this, you should know now.
The church Christ found is 'The Christian Church' which Deeper life is part of and not the 'catholic' church as you claimed.

chukwudi44: This is something you know you can't deny. Stop being cunning!
Jesus always referred to the scriptures and those scriptures are the ones we have in the old testament of the Bible today.


no way the word scriptures in the bible is not synonymous with the OT or bible.The OT and bible are only subsets of the the term scriptures.
so many other scripures were mentioned or quoted in the bible that were not among the books canonised by the catholic church.

Jannes and Jambres: "Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also." 2 Timothy 3:8-9

And he went and lived in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled: “He shall be called a Nazarene.”-Mattew 2:23

where in the OT did SS Paul and Mattew get this story and quotations from? hope you dont mind telling us

Jude also quoted from the scriptures in his letter which that section is not found in the books of the ot due to reasons which I don't know. (Perhaps, they were lost or unavailable as at when the other books were agreed on and compiled.

chukwudi44: do you mind telling me about these church fathers that were not catholics

Just as I have told your brother Italo, you can also join him in the
Study on church fathers on wikipedia.

italo: Q. How do you know Jesus ever mentioned "scriptures?"

A. You read it in the Bible the Catholic Church gave you. Precisely in the books that Jesus never mentioned but the Catholic Church gave you.

Can you please keep quiet if you don't have anything to say!
The same cock and bull story you have said over and over.
Again, go and read the bible history.

italo: Mention the 'many who werent Catholics and tell us why you say they weren't Catholics. Also show us how they were Deeper Life members.

I never said they were Deeper life members in the first place.
Go check them out yourself on wikipedia. I don't know how you (perhaps) concluded that they were all catholics.

italo: You want me to read that the Bible fell from the sky? Or that Deeper Life Bible Church compiled it? Lol...Funny lad!

You have said nothing that should be taken seriously. You've just been mocking yourself. You're even afraid of saying how you knew the Bible was compiled by the Church in Rome.

If you haven't read and understood the history of the bible and the compilation, you don't need to keep talking.

How else could I have known if I never read it somewhere or I wasn't told.
I wonder how you got your conclusion that the bible was conpiled by the catholic church as you claimed if you never read it somewhere or you weren't told by someone.

Enigma: I like this line. And it gets interesting because if you ask the lying mumus to explain or define what they mean by "the Catholic Church", they wont! Why? Because it would expose their lies and also expose the Roman Catholic church denomination as a shamelessly fraudulent organisation.

When they say or imply that "they" are "the Catholic Church", they are simply engaging in wuruwuru Mathematics. According to their fraudulent mathematics 5-4=5 (five minus four = five)

The Catholic Church = Alexandria + Antioch + Constantinople + Jerusalem + Rome!

The Roman Catholic Church = Rome

Now the frauds are trying to pass off only Rome i.e. the Roman Catholic Church as "the Catholic Church".

In any event, whether it is the fraudulent Roman Catholic church denomination or even the Catholic Church, the Bible had been written and "compiled" before either of them came into existence --- by Christians! Hallelujah.

If you want to catch the liars, when they say "the Catholic Church", ask them which one e.g. the Orthodox Catholic Church aka Eastern Orthodox who even have a better claim to be called "the Catholic Church" than the fraudulent Roman Catholic church denomination?

....The worst part of it is that they are not willing to learn and that's so pathetic, justify false things with 'oral tradition' and the claim that the catholic church compiled the bible.... etc.

God help us all.

italo: Jesus never mentioned the Bible. The whole New Testament wasn't written when Jesus was speaking. The Catholic Church gave you the Bible. Without it, you'd probably be worshiping Amadioha or Sango.

GO AND READ THE CHURCH FATHERS!

This is something you know you can't deny. Stop being cunning!
Jesus always referred to the scriptures and those scriptures are the ones we have in the old testament of the Bible today.

italo: It's what YOU bank on! The authenticity of the Catholic Church which made the Bible.
All you are saying, you'd never know, if the Catholic Church didnt tell you and give you the Bible.

GO AND READ THE CHURCH FATHERS!


How do you know that Jesus said such to his apostles? The Catholic Church gave you Bible! How do you know the parts of the New Testament that talk about communion aren't falsified? You trust the Catholic Church.

GO AND READ THE CHURCH FATHERS!

Which "scriptures" and "epistles"? The writings that the Catholic Church told you were scriptures and epistles?

GO AND READ THE CHURCH FATHERS!

What do you know about Christ besides what the Catholic Church presented to you as Bible? You are just talking blindly. You dont even know if the parts of the Bible that mention "Church" were not falsified.

GO AND READ THE CHURCH FATHERS!

Church Fathers, I have read articles online abuot these men. Many of whom were not even 'catholics' they contributed a lot to 'Christianity' in general.

I think you should go back and read extensively about how the Bible came into being and stop saying or claiming what the catholic church did and what they did not do.

italo: There is no hiding place for your ignorance on this matter. You make a mockery of yourself when you try to sound knowledgeable on things you know nothing about. You simple are ashamed to say it because an honest answer will further vindicate the Catholic Church. But isnt it the devil that makes you ashamed of the truth?

When you have read, then come and reprove what I have said.

italo: I didnt call any "Enigma" or whatever the name is "liar."

Isnt it a sin to tell lies in that your "infallible"underworld unidentifiable unverifiable "church" doctrine? I guess not.

I am about to open the thread on your "church" and its doctrine. Can we have the name of your "church" now? Or do you and your "church" still prefer darkness to light?

Deeper life bible church. You can find out more on it as there are information everywhere for you to see.

italo: How can you know that God personally guards a book he never mentioned. The Catholic Church gave you a book and you say the book was guarded by God. Is it for you to say or is it for the Catholic Church to say? You're just been hypocritical! You faith has no legs to stand on without the Catholic Church! I understand that it would be a disgrace to admit it...but real Christians seek truth, not ego.

You know this that Jesus always mentioned the scriptures. If the scriptures were corrupted, Jesus would never mention them.

italo: Its not that "Mark" tallies. It's that the Catholic Church declared that Mark tallied and included it in the Bible. If they had included "Barnabas," you'd have been here swearing that Barnabas tallies. And Mark could well have been written by anybody. The truth is smiling at you lovingly, dont look away now. Without the Catholic Church, your faith has no legs to stand on.

Now, I can see this is what you choose to bank on....the Catholic Church did this, the catholic church did that. Not without the catholic Church, without the scriptures, my faith cannot stand.
By the way, the Church: the pillar and ground of truth is where the truth rests and it is to uphold it. The truth (Jesus) is ever existent!
if your catholic church choose to change it (His teaching), then it has lost its way.

italo: How on earth is it possible for the Holy Spirit to command Christians to obey what doesnt exist?

Which ORAL traditions do you obey and where do you get it from?

That of the communion, that was not by a letter. It was orally said by Jesus to the apostles, and reserved in a written form (in the Gospels) for us to access.

italo: The Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. The Bible is also part of that tradition, as it was nowhere mentioned in scripture.

Hmmm.... I see.... and do they agree with the ones in the scriptures and epistles?

italo: au·thor (ôthr)
n.
1.
a. The writer of a book, article, or other text.
b. One who practices writing as a profession.
2. One who writes or constructs an electronic document or system, such as a website.
3. An originator or creator, as of a theory or plan.
4. Author God.
tr.v. au·thored, au·thor·ing, au·thors
1. Usage Problem To assume responsibility for the content of (a published text).

Author 1

Definition: The beginner, former, or first mover of anything; hence, the efficient cause of a thing; a creator; an originator.

ardictionary.com/Author/10758

The epistles of the New Testament were written by the first leaders of the Catholic Church.

The Church Christ Created was not the catholic church so the Apostles were not 'catholic' christians as they don't practice what you all practice in your catholic church today.

italo: How do you know the "Church in Rome" that compiled the Bible in the 4th century?

The same way you know that the catholic church compiled the bible.

italo: You dont want me to open the thread? Why are you hoarding your "church" and its infallible teaching? What are you afraid of?

I'll definitely open it after thinking over it. You may also open the thread and invite me to it.

italo: Dear friend, will you do the honourable thing and apologize for accusing me falsely? Or will you, as is common with you guys, prefer to hold onto this LIE than face up to the truth?

I never called any "Enigma" "liar" on this thread. Can you show me where I did?

Have you searched the thread?

italo: How do you know the Bible is authentically the writings of the apostles? How are you sure that the gospel of Barnabas which was excluded was not genuine; while the book of Mark which was included isnt a fraud?

I know that nothing could have been mixed up with it because God guards it personally.

One major thing I have learnt in life is to love what I have and value it preciously. If the gospel of Barnabas is genuine, and I don't have it, the one I have is sufficient and adequate for me....I do not need to start a search for the books. The fact that the book of Mark tallies with other books in both the old and new testament, I'm good to go with it.

italo: First things first. You dont obey oral traditions as the Holy Spirit commands. Yes or No?

How on earth is it possible to obeythe ones that are not available? By the way, I obey the ones that are available.

Now to you who know the oral traditions and obey them, can you list them (the ones you can remember now)

italo: "Church Fathers" on google will provide you several links in less than a second. If the Early Church Fathers (successors of the apostles) seem to be Catholic, it is because they were Catholic. Here are some links
m.ccel.org/fathers.html

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers

Thank you for the links. I'll visit them and read through.

italo: They did. Except you do not know the meaning of author.

Now can you answer the simple question I have asked at least 3 times?

The Catholic Church compiled the Bible. Yes or no?

Here's the meaning of Author.
au·thor - /ˈôTHər/
Noun:
1. A writer of a book, article, or report

You'll agree with me that writing and compiling (or perhaps publishing) are two different things.

Now, did the catholic church write the epistles or any book in the bible? Yes or No?
By the way, I have answered your question, not once and I'll answer again.
The Church in Rome compiled the bible. (Possibly catholic). Has that been answered?

italo: Wonderful! All hail infallible Pope Adsonstone. I want to be a part of this your Church that teaches God's one true doctrine and can NEVER teach wrong. Can I open a thread so that you can teach me what your Church teaches about key Christian issues? E.g the role of good works in salvation.

Perhaps, I'll consider doing that. You'll be welcome in the thread.

italo: Catholic Church teaching is there in the light for all to see. All you need to do is google Catechism or Canon law...etc. How can you be taken seriously when your "church" has no identity and no standard teaching, yet you say it has God's teaching. Even Boko Haram, as clandestine and evil as they are, have more credibility than this your unknown, underworld "church."

Perhaps, at the end of our discussion. I'll tell you the name.

italo: Can you show me where I called Enigma "Liar?"

You can check this thread for that.

italo: "Follow oral tradition" was the command. Not "wrap up oral tradition discussion. "

What are you wrapping up?

I repeat: there is nothing in Catholic teaching that contradicts scripture.

I challenge you and all your "church" members to show me.

What I mean by wrap up is 'let's finish the discussion on oral tradition before moving to the popular catholic teaching and practises as your oral tradition will aid the discussion on the catholic teaching.

italo: How do you know? How do you know the epistles of Peter, Paul and John weren't actually written by Pilate, Ananias and/or Herod? Or as one of your protestant brothers implied, samiramis inspired the Catholic Church to compile the Bible. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

In other words, do you want me to start doubting the authenticity of the bible??
If yes, I'm sorry.....'You're on a long thing.'

italo: Christian, dont pretend like you dont know that those practices are part of the ones the Holy Spirit calls "tradition. ..by letter." What about the ones the Holy Spirit calls "tradition...BY WORD OF MOUTH?" Why do you ignore them? Why do you disobey the Holy Spirit?

I do not disobey Him. I obey exactly as He teaches me with what I have.
Now, I want you to list those traditions by word of mouth since I don't have them and let's see if they are in line with the ones that are not oral afterall they shouldn't contradict.

italo: Any sincere Christian can access the wrings of the Church Fathers online. Indeed, they have led many sincere protestants back home to the Catholic Church.

and Honestly, I wouldn't ask you to post them if I actually found them. I'll be grateful if you provide a link. (Church Fathers as you said....I'm not requesting for Catholic Fathers)

italo: I dont know what you concluded as you seem to ashamed to give a clear and honest answer.

The Catholic Church compiled the Bible. Yes or no?

YES
The Catholic Church authored the Bible!

Stop being mischievous! You know the Catholic church NEVER authored the bible!

italo: Unverified! Unverifiable!

Who founded your "church" and when? Does your Church teach God's one true doctrine?

Yes, My Church does!

italo: You can possibly be wrong about your interpretation of something or anything the Bible says. Yes or no?

No! I can't. The spirit of God guides me.

italo: No.

Who are those few who follow what the Holy Spirit's says and not the Pope? Your "church" that cannot come out in the light? The Pope authorized the canon of the New Testament and you followed what he declared. No?

Thank God that stated date wasn't given by your Church.

Not just my Church, all bible believing Christians that do not seek what the pope wants and truly search and study with the Holy Spirit's help.
I think high time you stopped all these 'the catholic church compiled the bible', 'the pope authorized the New testament canon'....and just declare 'The Pope and the Catholic church wrote the bible and gave it out to everyone!' I think that's a better representation of all your words.

italo: In other words, only your "church" doctrine is that which the Holy Spirit teaches? Every other human being that has a different teaching is not following the Holy Spirit? Yet this Church operates like an underworld organization that cannot come out in the light? Neither the identity nor the teachings of your "church" can be known.

Am I not a member of that church? Am I not speaking? Can't you figure what is taught in my church from what I say? Must I say the name? Don't I read the teaching of your church from your speech?

italo: Who are the "some people" that I accused of lying that didnt lie?

Enigma

italo: There is nothing in Catholic teaching and practice that is contrary to scripture.

I challenge you to show me any Catholic practice and how scripture forbids it.

Are you sure you really want this?? If we start highlighting these things.....30pages won't be enough to finish it all.
By the way, before this, I want us to wrap up the oral tradition discussion.

bigtt76: Haba just one penalty save? comot all the four defenders and see if he will survive the goal rain

Test any goalkeeper in the world to see if they can survive this.

Nawa ooo.

chukwudi44: So in otherwords even the protestants do not have unity of biblical interpretation yet they all claim to be inspired by the same holy spirit.Do you really believe the same holy spirit rules in them all?assuming you manage to convince me to leave the catholic church,ow do I know which of these churches are genuine?

Asco gave a decent reply.
The protestants are not a single gathering with one head so, you don't expect a single doctrine as many people will come up with theirs.
If you genuinely want to know the truth, Since you are a Christian, Pray that the Holy spirit help your heart to be open to receive (and believe) the truth just as what happened in Acts 16:14 (that's how you'll know which is genuine. I should not call any church)

Ukuts gp: U hv been talking history dat u know nothing about since, now let us face the word of God now. Or u want to say the bible is not d written word of God again?

Now u can begin.@italo and his crew.

I trust Italo. I'm sure He'll say the same thing he has been saying over and over which is 'The Catholic Church compiled the Bible'.