₦airaland Forum

italo: This is sufficient!

Your question was:
Concerning the bold, if you are still punished (temporarily) on earth (and even after death) after you've been forgiven, then what exactly is forgiveness?

That shows you what exactly (God's) forgiveness is.

Thats not sufficient.
Reason: Christ hasnt died then

as for the David's story,
clearly, you dont know why he was punished.
Certainly not cos of what he was forgiven for but the promise God made to punish Him...notice that the prophet said He was being (or going to be) punished cos his deed caused the enemies of God to blasphame against Him.
I'll recommend a re-study on that.

italo: You mean some people heading for heaven will suffer loss after this life?

If yes, it is that state of "suffering loss" that we Catholics call purgatory. No one suffers loss in heaven...and no is saved in hell.

brother, if everyman does not pass through your 'assumed purgatory', then that passage is definitely not talking about purgatory! Because everyone does pass through that place.
See verse 13 of that chapter.

italo: Matt. 12:32 clearly implies that there are sins that will be forgiven in the world to come.

I dont know why you are fighting me over words that aren't mine but the Lord's.

brother, I'm not fighting you over the Lord's words. Im only implying the sister statements of what you also implied from the Lord's statement.

If it clearly implies that, it also clearly implies these...
1. There are some other sins that wont be forgiven in this world (all sins are not forgiven in this world)
2. There are some other sins that will not also be forgiven in the world to come. (all sins are not forgiven in the world to come)

....and if these inferences are correct, which sin exactly did Christ pay for?
A general inference can even be drawn based on the ones above that 'Christ did not even pay for all sins'
are all these correct and clear implications too?

italo: If you're not in a position to give a more guided study than mine, what then are you doing trying to give a more guided study on the same 1 Cor 3:15 above?

Or perhaps you wont because you haven't found Enigma to teach you how to twist the verse.

thats a 'literal' translation and not a guided study as you have written above.....and oh! You remember Enigma....perhaps, you have missed his posts. You know he'll not waste time with you as im doing.

italo: @ try69,

Let me advice you: that guy will not admit even the glaring truths you'll present him.

You'll just be wasting your time.

That's someone that says "The Church in Rome (probably Catholic) compiled the Bible in the 4th century.

That's some who insists that men like St. Jerome weren't Catholic despite all the evidence in their writings and works that the were.

That is someone who claims he and his Deeper Life Church are infallible and they see the Bible as the final authority yet they cannot agree on what the Bible is.

Why has it become so easy to say these lies against me...
You cant admit your own wrong (you dont even see it) yet, you keep seeing others who dont agree with you as 'wrong'.

I never claimed we are infalible (on our own), I claimed we are infailible with the Holy Spirit's guidance.
You said you (the catholic church) compiled 73 books for the bible (after removing deuterocanonical books you considered apocrypha) and you want everyone to follow what you compiled cos you feel thats right. You said myself and Kumuyi cannot agree on what the bible is (of course, we both agree on 66 books of the bible that does not contain all the deuterocanonicals including the ones you accepted and rejected-considering them apocryphal).

Regarding the bold,
I never insited they were not catholics after Chukwudi44 labelled two catholics out of about five church fathers I listed.
The same Jerome you claim is a catholic, is the same the orthodox claim he is (he even spoke against the said books you mentioned the catholic compiled).

If I may ask, why are you hypocritical on these issues?

try69: I don't know that why I have asked you great teacher.. School me pls

And please how do you know the bible is the truth?

And who gave you the bible?

I think i should break it down (the bible) into the scriptures and other epistles to answer the questions....
The scriptures are given by the prophets and other Inspired men and the epistles are given by the apostles.

How do I know it is the truth?
In itself, it writers present it as the truth moreover, overtime, technology, archeology, science and even people have confirmed it to be true and thats how I know.

Does that answer and educate you?

italo: You surely have not read how God forgave David yet made him pay for the sin.

intead of referring me to this, I think you should refer me to someone God punished after Christ died for his sins.....that would be better.

italo: You already answered that these sins will be forgiven where judgement will be done (up there). That is contradictory to the rest of the above. Sort yourself out.

Dont misquote me, I never said sins will be forgiven up there.
It seem you forgot your question, you said 'where is this place that people suffer loss and are saved as by fire' and my answer was 'where the 'judgement will be done by God.' How does that contradict?
Literaly, that passage says a man's work will be burned (not the man) and he'll suffer loss (which is in line cos wen one's work is burned, itz a loss to him) but he'll be saved (I dont even think youll xpect him to burn with his work)-thats straightforward (literaly)

italo: Dont put it down to me. It was Christ who said so.

Matt 12:32 - And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

I only helped you do what you were already doing since nothing is hard for you even implying(infering) what Christ did not say from what He said. I did not put it down to you.

italo: That is why we are here. Give us the "more guided study," if you can.

No, I wont.
Why?
I'm not in the position to give you that.

free radical: Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is not an express ticket to heaven. Your works must first show its worth when its tested through fire only then can you be free to enter heaven. If Jesus had not died for us no matter how righteous you live you wont smell heaven because of the guiltof Adam and eve's sin. That's why he descended into hell to free all the righteous ones that had died before his crucifixion. This is just natural heavenly law.....u cannot be holy enough to just waltz straight to heaven because because every sin you commit has a temporal punishment which you must satisfy even after that sin has been forgiven. those that arent paid back in this life will surely be atoned for in the world to come. kapito

sure, you cant claim youre forgiven and still choose to live in sin.

Concerning the bold, if you are still punished (temporarily) on earth (and even after death) after you've been forgiven, then what exactly is forgiveness?

italo: Everyone in purgatory is heaven bound.

God releases them sometime between their particular judgement when they are sent to purgatory and the general judgement when all those in purgatory are received into heaven.

You see how clearly I answered your questions?

Now please answer me the same way.


Matt. 12:32 - And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

That verse clearly shows that there are some other sins that can be forgiven in the world to come

Since there's no forgivess in heaven or hell, where in the world to come are sins forgiven?

1 Cor 3:15 - If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Where is this that people suffer loss and are saved as by fire?

where 'judgement' will be done by God.

To start with, we both know that if sins are not forgiven here on earth after Jesus' death and resurrection, then the sacrifice is a total waste of time. Perhaps, He needed not to come here on earth if sins could be forgiven somewhere up there. (theres no debate if you disagree).

The matthew scripture, interpreting literaly, following your analogy,
it would mean;
1. There are some other sins that will not also be forgiven in the world to come.
2. There are some that will be forgiven in the world to come (as you said)
3. There are some other sins that wont be forgiven in this world.

I hope thats right.
....and if 3 is right, which sin exactly did Christ's death pay for?

For the 1 Cor scripture, I recommend a more guided study as I perceive that this is the most misinterpeted verse in the bible and note that that it doesnt say anyman will pass through fire (note the 'as by fire' is much like a simile).

try69: What is the truth?

Where is the truth?

can you please tell me the complete history of the whole bible? That's where we can find reliable truth.

Sincerely speaking, when asco15 came on this thread, he testified that he was set free from the catholic church and he urged catholic brothers to 'see and embrace light' and now, Italo has tagged that 'attacking the Catholic church'. He sees asco15's accusation of samiramis' worship but doesnt see his (what level of hypocrisy). Now, He has mentioned 'an enemy of truth' -the truth we all know that he has said only half-baked truths on this thread and expects us to believe--how hypocritic!
SMH for those who have ignored the whole truth and see/say only the ones that favours them. What a pity!

As for the topic;

I thank God I'm not vunerable to cheap and evil deceit of darkness!

@Italo and other catholic brothers, the topic is open for a biblical debate if you dont mind. Show interest by answering these two simple questions if you believe in purgatory.

1. What happens to the people in purgatory afterwards (are they all heaven bound)?
2. If they are heaven bound, who releases them into heaven and when is or will this be done?

donezra: We don't worship her. We adore her.
This is because She intercedes for us to the Father.

I know your believe won't let you agree with me but let me give u an instance.

If u love ur mom so much and it happens u r the Governor of a state. Now someone from the masses tries to see u to ask for a favour or has met u once for a favour but u are busy to grant it. Or he has done something bad in the past for that you don't want to grant his favour.
This man now goes to ur mom and pleaded with her to help u talk to her son on ur behave. This your mom who have a good heart agrees and comes to u with the young man's plea. After calling u all the sweet names and making u happy, she succeeded in making u to grant that man his favour.


Now, that is exactly what happens u when we adore Mary and ask her to intercedes for us.
Another perfect example can be found in the wedding in Canaan.

Your analogy fails terribly.
Why?
Reason: God is not a man, He can never be deceived or lured to do something.

Okay?

Catholic brothers, can you pls, stop haunting asco15? He has already been set free.
Observing your conversation with him, it seem you're trying to force him to say words you wanna hear so you'll speak against him and thats why you ask cunning qstns.
Well, God has freed him and he's forever free.

macof: an idol is an item used to represent or signify the presence of a God.

so ur opinion is BS

Really?


...and what's BS?

I think I'm interested in this thread.
I've got brothers here too
Catholics are not Idol worshippers (a friend told me that) afterall, an idol is anything that takes God's place. People that don't understand their worship are those that regard them as such. (my opinion).

ahmedoba22: hmmmm says who?

says Jesus

try69: Seriously I am just watching this russell-the-wife-beater-follower

Shebi adsonstone has kept shut?

Now, that's the difference between a Christian and a 'Church goer'. May God guide you.

Marthakings: but he called me a novice..... :-(

sorry about that.

Marthakings: ok...m sorry

...right

Marthakings: He-goat, u don finish waste ur saliva?

He-goat?
Martha, I think thats rather rude (its a bit taken too far).
His questions were not wrong (in my opinion)

italo: Dear friend,

Permit me to ignore you. I have found that truth is you biggest enemy.

One who serves you truth is only wasting time.

Brother,
I don't mind if you ignore, divert or perhaps, change (or twist) the whole topic as these are your usual actions when facts are stated and you have no explanation or defence or just to put it simply, when you cant refute them cos when you attempt to, it will further expose the corruption and lies (half-truths) you advocate.
Well, I say thank you for all your replies so far as they have revealed hidden (not necessarily bad) things in the catholic church. I stand for the truth. God bless you and guide you.

We have so many awesome guys on this thread

I think the subject of the matter now is the 'the bible and its books'

@Italo, the septuagint first compiled the ot and it has more books than you have in your ot today, do you agree with what they compiled?

If you do, why do you have lesser books in your ot today by removing some considering them apocrypha and whats the reason for the removal?

If you dont, then why do you disagree (with what they compiled)?

chukwudi44: So how come Kumuyi and his fellow protestants have gone ahead to form new denominations

even from the scriptures, we know that some will fall away cos not all 'christians' will make it.

If there be any denomination that teaches contrary to the scriptures, it has deviated from the true church therefore, no longer part of the church.

Deeper life teaches in line and if theres any contrary thing you find, highlight them and lets review them.

chukwudi44: Bros stop lying and give your life to christ.First you claimed deeper life was part of the church that compiled the bible only for you to be disgraced by canon 22 of the church council that compiled the bible.Now you are now part of the original churches of galatia and rome.I wonder which lie you will spew next.

Bro, stop laying false allegations against me and dont twist what I said...it makes you a liar! I never said Deeper Life was part of the church that compiled the bible. I said deeper life is part of the christian church Christ found.....by the reason of what the church teaches....exactly in line with what Christ and the apostles taught in the scriptures.

chukwudi44: The question is not who first preached to them.peter preached to the galatians even though he might not been the first to preach the goodnews to them.Likewise Paul preached to the romans even though he was not the first to preach the gospel to them.The koko of the matter is that the churches of Rome,galatia,etc were not differant denominations but rather differant branchers of the same church where Peter and Paul served as pastors shikena.Peter,Paul and the other apostles did not open up differant churches but rather opened up branches of the same church in diverse locations.

strongly agree.

chukwudi44: Fafafaaa fowlllll.deeper life bible church is not in communion with the original church.You are a pathetic liar

Bro, go and rest, you havd nothing else to say.

italo: Paul never founded any Church. There's only one Church. The one that met in a council in Acts 15.

When that Church spoke, it was binding on all in Jerusalem, Rome, Galatia, everywhere.

Your Kumuyi and his personal "church" are outside of that Church.

That means the catholic church that was built down my street last year is also outside that church, right?

italo: There's no anarchy within the Catholic Church. We canonized 73 books in the 4th century. You call that "final authority." Martin Luther removed 7 books, Kumuyi calls that "final authority."

You and Kumuyi are confusing yourselves and God's children.

The septuagint compiled more books than you have for the ot. You removed some and setteled with the rest, called that 'authoritative'
Luther removed those books cos he considered them deuterocanonical (not part of the hebrew bible). You removed some deuteurocanonicals (not all) and considered them apocrypha. The othodox accepts all

chukwudi44: Which one started here in Nigeria in 1973? SMH Is Kumuyi's church in communion with the original churches of galatia,Jerusalem,Rome,corinth etc?

Yes, it is.
Why? It teaches what they taught in their epistles and refers to the books of the prophets just as they also did.

chukwudi44: Tanx God you know you have no right to remove any book from the bible but why then did you remove 7 books from the original 73 books of the bible that was compiled?

so, by whose authority were the books considered 'apocrypha' removed and the added ones to the ones the septuagint compiled? (even by the catholics to have 73)

chukwudi44: Are you disputing the fact that Peter wrote to the galatians?

No, his first epistle was to them and other churches.

Now, pick up your kjv version of the bible and lets run through some things to clear this issue.

Note who preached in Galatia in Acts 15:40 and read through till Acts 16:7 and also note that they did preach in Bithynia.
Now study the Letter of Peter, in verse 1, he regarded them strangers (Because he did not bring the gospel to them.) (though he affirmed they are saved).
Study verse 12 of that epistle, it shows he did not preach to them. He mentioned 'them that have preached the gospel unto you.'
when you study that epistle, you'll discover that the epistle was urging them to continue in what has been preached to them and teaching them some other things.

chukwudi44: Regarding the bold, going by your analogy:
Jesus found His church in 33ce, it started in Jerusalem.

.....and Paul found the church at Galatia years after 33ce.

The galatians belong to the church Paul founded, not necessarily the one Jesus founded......right?

The church Jesus founded @ Jerusalem and the branch Paul opened in galatia are they differant?

Kumuyi started deeper life in lagos in 1973 am sure branches did not open up in the east until later by his pastors are you saying the other branches opened up by his pastors are differant from Kumuyi's deeper life church in Lagos?

If they arent different, the one that started here in Nigeria in 1973 shouldnt be different.

chukwudi44: Regarding the bible books issue, the compiled books consist of 66 books which there is no debate about

Who told you there is no debate about the 66 books? Your father martin luther called James epistle ,the epistle of straws and excised it alongside Revelation from the bible.Even the book of Hebrews,2and 3 peter were heavily disputed.Do not state what you do not know

I stated exactly what I know, those books were compiled before Luther was born right?
There was no debate on those 66 books.

Martin Luther disputed them right?
Did he try to remove them? Yes (in the 16th century)
Could he remove them? No. (He doesnt even have the right to remove them)

I have those books in my bible, do you have them in yours? (I guess yes).