₦airaland Forum

Sal C: Before you conclude, you can help kingk answer the question I asked him since yesterday.

about that one, it has been concluded.
Jesus said Hell, you and the catholic church say purgatory. Will you deny or will you eat your words?

By the way, what did u ask kingk?

italo: All I know is that Jesus who is God always obeyed Mary. He even went as far as granting her request when it wasnt the appointed time for him to reveal his glory

I'm interested in this statement.

Italo, hope you dont mind showing us from your bible where Mary 'requested' and not 'reported'

adsonstone: 1. They have 3more deuterocanonical books than you do. (worthy of note, they were part of the catholic church in the 4th century you claim you compiled the bible....how come you have two different books in one church?)

2. They disagree with your concept of papal infalibility.
3. Baptism by sprinkling is not left out of things they disbelieve in. Infact, they do their infant baptism by imersion.
4. Infant communion.
5. They allow priests to marry (i wonder where you guys learnt that priests shouldnt marry and made it a 'law' in your church).
6. They reject (your concept of) the topic of this thread- purgatory!

chukwudi44: 1.the father is GOD
2.The son is GOD
3.tHE Spirit is GOD
4.ALL three are one GOD
5.Jesus died for our Salvation
6.Jesus rose on the third day
7.Mary remained a perpertual virgin
8.Beleif in the validity of infact baptism
9.Prayers for the dead
10.Veneration of saints
11.Use of Images
12.Beleif on the sacraments
13.Beleif on the docrine of apostolic succession
14.Beleif in the validity of the deutoroncanonms
15.Belief in the validity of scriture + sacred tradition
16.Beleiof in the writings of the early chruch fathers
17.Beleif on the ecumenical councils before the schism

........ETC

Those are the points we both brought side by side.

I have 6, you have 17 and you claim its 99.9999:0.0001 #OLODO.
You dont even know simple maths!
What a shame.


Others can help judge if its 99.9999:0.0001 as you claim because it seem you persist in telling lies.
Liar!

italo: They are different.

Paul never had a Church.

Paul worked with Christ's established Church.

Kumuyi is on his own. Nobody sent him any message and he reports to no one.

He's just a CEO running a business.

who does your pope report to?
Tell me.

italo: 1. The baptism for the dead Paul was talking about...

...where were the dead?

Heaven or hell?

Paul did not state that. Though, we can reason and draw likely locations they can be (which may not be the exact).

Before we start that reasoning, I'll like you to answer this.

Where exactly is Abraham's bosom?
Is it heaven, or is it also in hell or maybe a place on its own?

italo: 2. Do people feel compassion in hell?

Yes, people feel compassion in hell.

Reason: Jesus said the rich man was in hell....and we know he felt remorse and compassion.
Or do you want me to change what Jesus said?

chukwudi44: the holy spirit says sin, and its wages is death. The catholic church breaks it into venial (the ones that does not lead to death) and mortal sins (contrary to the Holy Spirit), Introduced an 'assumed purgatory' for 'venial sinners' and hell for 'mortal sinners'. I leave you guys to the Holy Spirit.

the catholic church is not the one who categorized the sins.The holy sprit himself did through John in 1 JOHN5:16-17


1 John 5:16-17

New International Version (NIV)


16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death


HERE JOHN ENCOURAGES US TO PRAY FOR THOSE WHO DIED IN VENIAL SINS(THOSE WHOOSE SINS DO NOT LEAD TO DEATH)

having said this, just before we move on, if I may ask...which category of sin did Christ pay for?

Now, to explain the 'assumed purgatory' concept, catholics (eg Sal C) have changed the words of even our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus said the rich man was in hell, catholics say its Purgatory.
How pathethic. Smh

'

italo: Since you've given up trying to prove that 'asking if something is biblical' is biblical, let us give it a rest.

Alright.
...but I guess that does not hinder you from asking the questions we were discussing before the biblical/non-biblical topic came in. Go through my posts and lets continue on that.

italo: To whom do we go to interpret what the Bible teaches?

Kumuyi's Church of 1973 or Jesus' Church of 33?

they're not different just as Paul's churches are not different from Christ's church. If you cant interprete for yourself, its advisable to go to the Church to be on the safe side

chukwudi44: Anyone can claim anything but the historical facts remains that the orthodox church did not exist until after the east-west schism.The orthodox church are 99.9999 doctrinally similar with the catholic church differing in the supremacy of the pope among a few other things.they also believe in the veneration of the saints,the sacraments,use of images,honour to mary and everyother major point of protestant discontent with catholicism

are you saying that 0.001% of doctrinal differences caused the division?

should I start listing the numerous differences?

try69: And the holy spirit is responsible for the different teachings of the different christian groups?

If no

Then, which is the group with the right teachings from the holy spirit and how do u judge so?

I'm curious

No, He is not.
We only know the right ones if they are in line with the ones He has taught revealed in the bible.

.

Fasholu: Hmmm, I'm just speechless, To the catholic turned protestants..Well done, continue the good work, You shall be rewarded, Christ founded the Catholic church, Told peter that whatever he binds on earth has already been binded in heaven, promised to be with the church till the end of time, said the gates of hell shall never prevail against it..and to think you guys did catechism, really?..Prodigal sons of the church..Its a pity you all lost your faith, well the true church is available to all who seeks it with an open mind, you allowed protestants to fill you with lies,Well I'm sure none of you did catechism..

Regarding the bold, that claim is the same orthodox christians make.
Its not even different from what muslims claim that their 'end time' Prophet Muhammed was sent to restore the true faith of the prophets.

Well, the truth is Christ found the Christian Church.

Fasholu: Well to those who really want the meaning of purgatory..Its a place where souls who die in venial sins( Sins that does not kill the soul, yet displeases God..Read the CATECHISM OF THE CHRISTAIN DOCTRINE FOR MORE INFO)

the holy spirit says sin, and its wages is death. The catholic church breaks it into venial (the ones that does not lead to death) and mortal sins (contrary to the Holy Spirit), Introduced an 'assumed purgatory' for 'venial sinners' and hell for 'mortal sinners'. I leave you guys to the Holy Spirit.

Fasholu: To be frank, Most don't even understand why Jesus came on earth,, To those who don't know, He came on earth, to pay the price of our sins by dieing for us, and to teach us the way to heaven..

So, which sin did Jesus' death pay for? Mortal sins only?
Did He pay for venial sins too?
If He did, why do we pay again in purgatory?

Fasholu: But because he had to go back to heaven..He gave his apostles the order to teach all nations( go ye and be disciples of all nations(, that was where the catholic word was coined from meaning UNIVERSAL, And he told them that what he couldn't teach them on earth will be revealed to them by the holy spirit..The holy spirit has always and will always be with the catholic church.. Get that into your heads..If the holy see tells you A is B, then A is B.. That's the simple truth..NOT EVERYTHING IS IN THE BIBLE..GUYS, The Bible(Strictly New Testament oo) is just there to know the life of Jesus and the lives of the apostles..To strengthen your Faith, They are just Biographies and Letters, The Society is dynamic(Sociologists should understand that) The society is subject to change, Rules that apply now might not apply in the future, Just like the stuffs in the old testament differs from the stuffs in the new testament, Nothing is constant..Brethren, But in all this dynamism..we need a church to teach us the changing rules..And what church is there to Go to if not the church christ founded himself..If christ promised to be with the catholic church till the end of time.. Why won't I be there.,Cos its the only place I can get the true teachings of tge holy spirit,

the Holy Spirit authored the bible. He cant teach contrary to what He has revealed in the bible. If there is any supposed teaching that opposes the already revealed ones, then it MUST be thrown away.

Fasholu: So pleeeeeease, Protestants, If you can't succumb to the catholic doctrine..Tape your mouth and stop your ridicule on the Catholic church ehn..Mind your business and We'll mind ours..To those who think I'm blind to the truth and being philosophical..Your luck, If you truly believe christ.believe his promise to the catholic church..The Catholic church doesn't base its doctrine on the Bible, Its doctrine is based directly on orders from the holy spirit, It has always been before the bible was assembled so whats ur wahala?..

well, the same Holy Spirit that revealed the bible has not changed.

Anyway, you say this cos youve been there all your life. If you have been a hindu too, no doubt youll defend hinduism

Fasholu: The Catholic church is not pure,I know that but it is only flawed because men are flawed..Yet I want to carry those flaws and take them as my cross like a faithful christain..Thank you#Proudly Catholic

thank God you know this and youre not hypocritical abt it.

chukwudi44: The orthodox church did not exist until the east-west schism.These are historical facts.Even the church of christ founded in the twentieth century also claim to have been founded by christ.

True. The orthodox church existed as part of the catholic church but disagreed with doctrinal issues when some fetish ones were incorporated into the existing ones.
Today, the orthodox churches hold that they are right, that they follow the Holy Spirit, scriptures and tradition just like you guys too....and say they are the true church which you also claim.

try69: And if I ask you the true church, you would tell me it's deeper life founded in 1973 by a former anglican?

Christ waited till 1973 to found his church that the gates of hell will never prevail against?

You must be joking!

See, kumuyi's only contribution to protestianism is more division.

if you ask me the of the Church Christ found, I'll rightly tell you its The Christian Church....but I know you'll disagree because you believe its the Roman catholic church just like other othodox churches to believe they are the church.

,

chukwudi44: Don't mind those hypocrites masquarading under the garb of anti-catholicism to hide their own doctrinal differences.JMAN and Adnostone would disgree on Trinity and a lot of several other doctrines.Same thing applies to every other protestant here.Most of them do not even have the same doctrine with their founder Martin Luther.

you make a big mistake by putting everyone outside the catholic church under the umbrella tagged 'protestant'......in that wise, someone else can put all churches claiming they are the one true apostolic church Christ found that have the true(original apostolic) traditions ie (roman catholisism, anglicans, assyrian churches and all orthodox churches) under a general umbrella....each one also have her bible canons.
You cant all be right, yet, have different doctrines and beliefs....and still claim you are the one true church.

,

italo: No.

No?
if no, then this means verse 15 cannot be talking about purgatory.
Reason: verse 13 says everyman will pass through that stage.

italo: In a sense, yes. More plainly, there's purification from uncleanness.

If yes, that has nullified the whole teaching on purgatory that says there is payment for sins not paid for on earth....and affirms that the speech Jesus made does not imply that there are sins that that will be forgiven in the world to come....but that speech really signifies strongly that that sin wil never be forgiven.

italo: Judgement day.

If the day of the Lord is the judgement day, how then does purgatory come into the picture if purgatory is not the Judgement day....and all these are bound to happen on the day of the Lord.

This even brings another qstn.
Is the purgatory just gonna be set up on the day of the Lord or has it always existed?

italo: Now answer these:

In Luke 16: 19-31, where is the rich man?

Heaven, hell or earth?

hell. Its clear from the passage....or do u expect me to add personal opinion?

Before moving to your other qstn, lets finish the discussion on my question as it will give an insight into answering your question.

italo: You never agree with my view. So let me agree with your Protestant view of scripture for now. In the interest of peace.

Scripture is any document e.g the receipt for you TV, your voter's card etc.

Or do you disagree with your Protestant view again?

I asked for yours, and I'll give mine hoping we'll reach a compromise.
Well, if you say you agree with the definition in bold, then I assume thats your own definition too.

italo: You believe the Bible is 66 books; you believe that the Bible is 73 books; you believe that the Bible has more than 73 books.

Still your Protestant definition of scripture is not the same as your Protestant definition of bible.

that I dint dispute that it has 73 books or more does not mean I agree with them.
I agree with only 66-book bible and thats what I use.

italo: Asking someone if something is "biblical" never happened in the Bible.


What you're doing by requesting that something must be biblical then is unbiblical and not Christ-like.

I closed dialogue on this cos Im sure we wont reach an agreement so, theres no point debating this. You've drawn your conclusion already which is different from mine.

italo: Your brother JMAN05 the JW taught that it is any document like his birth certificate.

I did not request his. I requested yours(religion wise).

italo: You taught that it was the 73books canonized by the Catholic Church in the 4th century...then your oga Kumuyi teaches that it is 66books.

I mentioned that, I did not also dispute Luther's 66 books (infact, thats what I use).

italo: Yes. But he never asked anybody if anything was "biblical."

I've heard that...cleared
we dont need further dialogue on this

italo: SHE never said you TOLD her how her question should be.

SHE only said "it is not your duty to tell me how my question should be."

Are you going to accept that they are the same thing?

oh Sal C=She.....never knew that. Sorry.

The one you made bold isnt the one that draws the emphasis. Now, the one that draws the emphasis.

italo: SHE never said you TOLD her how her question should be.

SHE only said "it is not your duty to tell me how my question should be."

Are you going to accept that they are the same thing?

does that not mean I have told her how her qstn shld be?

italo: You explain where v15 is talking about then.

Adsonstone said it is where judgement will take place.

JMAN05 said it is persecution on earth.

Some other protestants say it is heaven.

Different explanations, yet you're all children of Martin Luther claiming inspiration from the Holy Spirit.

....and Italo and the rest of the Catholic church says its 'purgatory'

Italo and others, answer these.
1. Does (or will) everyman pass through your assumed purgatory?
2. Is there forgiveness in your assumed purgatory?
3. What does 'the day of the Lord' refer to in that passage? Or is it also your assumed purgatory?

Answers pls.

Sal C: I should be the one smh for you but i choose not to.

FYI, your guess is irrelevant here.
I wasn't looking for guesses, i am looking for answers.

better Idea

italo: The 7 year old would also know that no one said you made a definite command.

thats the reason I put the definite command in quote.

Examine what your brother said.

sal C: It is not your duty to tell me how my question should be

I never TOLD him how his question should be, I suggested.

italo: The bold are not the same thing.

Was it not your brother JMAN05 that taught that any document, even his birth certificate is scripture?

Asking someone if something is "biblical" is NOT biblical.

It was never done in the Bible.

Now, I put it to you.
What are scriptures (religion wise)?

What makes up the bible?

Regarding the bold... Jesus also asked people if they read in the scriptures or not.
Go and study.

Sal C: It is not your duty to tell me how my question should be.

Having said that, if you have an answer to my question, go on and answer it.

when did 'I guess' stop being a suggestion and become a 'definite command'?

Even a 7year-old primary school student understands better. Smh

italo: What do you mean by "biblical?"

Is "biblical" biblical?

Is asking if something is biblical biblical?

biblical- 'in line with the scriptures in the bible'

asking someone if something is in line with the scriptures....is also in line with the bible.

Okay?

Sal C: Did the word rapture appear in the bible?

I guess the question should be 'is rapture biblical?'

italo: Clear road!

I don 'clear road'

shey you don dey see road?