₦airaland Forum

I'm still patiently waiting for Italo's reply to my last response.

I've seen Him post on other threads recently so, I know its not because he's not online....of course He is.

Could it be because He hasn't found new lies or He has not completed His research or perhaps, He has found out the truth and He's trying to conceal as further words will convict Him or maybe even scared to declare the truth after all the lies.

I just wanna believe He doesnt want to attend to this now....perhaps till tomorrow after He has gotten reasons from Monks, Priests or Catechists in His church and if I dont get a reply then, I can just conclude that He's too scared of the truth as Chukwudi44 cos the truth truly hurts.

chukwudi44: Bros I already told you I don't debate with trolls so Bleep off if you ve got nothing to contribute

you again?
You know I've advised you (not once) to learn before you start ranting.

By the way, have you put my points side by side with yours and judged if its 99.9999:0.0001 as you claim?

If its not (even in your judgment), you are a liar.

Besides, I should stop replying or quoting you as you have shown yourself to be a liar and unwilling to own up but persist in the lies you have presented, again, the truth hurts you badly as Kingk rightly said.

Enigma: They are just using all of that as diversionary tactics --- and of course introducing more lies or subtly misleading statements. They are just unable to avoid being fraudulent; the thing is simply an integral part of Roman Catholicism as they need it because they cannot stand or abide the truth.

In fact, I like my main example: Jesus says, "I am the Way" and "No one comes to the Father except through me"

Roman Catholicism says, "No one can be saved except s/he submits to the Roman Catholic 'pope'"?

Do you really think that any honest Christian can defend that --- especially without resort to some fraud (and specifically to the fraud of twisting the Bible) ?

100% correct! especially the one in the brackets.

Thats what has been happening all this while.....different forms of twists and diversions.

You must have studied these people.

chukwudi44: At least I have listed longer similarities than your own list of differences.if I even decide to list the similarities between RCC and depper life I can even get 99% let alone the orthodox church.You do not even know what you are saying.

BTW do not refer me to trolls,I do not argue with them

put them side by side and judge for yourself if it is 99.9999:0.0001.
If it is not, you have made yourself a liar.

If I have reffered you to Enigma, I don't expect you to argue with him.
Just point it out if he says something wrong.

BTW, Of all the ones he has mentioned, you have not been able to refute any.....so what are you saying?

italo: Are you maintaining that the passage didnt talk about the aftermath of judgement or not?

I've told you my position on that.

italo: And who says the 1000 year reign after particular judgement isn't in heaven?

....and who says it is definitely Heaven?
Hope you dont mind showing me.

italo: You say the passage doesn't say those in hades were in the first judgement...and it doesn't say they weren't. Why then do you ascert that they weren't? Haven't you implied conclusion from uncertainty? Or are you appealing to tradition?

5 - The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

13 - And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works.

Aren't "the dead in death and hell" in v8 part of the "REST of the dead that lived not" after their particular judgement in v5?

I asserted that they have not been judged because I know they cant be judged twice, one that will make them suffer and another that will take them to glory.
I hope you know what "the rest" means.

Besides, read the bolded verse. It said 'they lived not'. It is a fact that they had to live(resurrect) to be judged and to live after judgement.

Hope thats been cleared.

italo: There are souls that never pass hades/sheol to heaven. No?

I agree.
Only souls of those that did not die.

italo: Aww...poor you. Olodo! Verses 5 & 13 tell that story.

that has been cleared in my former post.
Its a certain implication, unlike the one you implied.

italo: Its not contrary. Some will be found worthy who werent among the ones who had being reigning with Christ all along: the souls in purgatory!

By that, do you mean these?
1. All souls in hades= certainly heaven
2. Others in death and sea= heaven or hell

if thats what you mean, give a proof.

My position is: category 1 =heaven/hell and same with category 2.

italo: Again: verses 5 & 13.
.

again, thats been cleared.

All what you have been saying, I'll still prove it all to be false. I'm just going through this discussion with you to show you that you're still making mistakes in these false things.

I pray you see light though, I know its not easy.
You'll rather stick to a wrong teaching than be embarassed or come out to accept that you were wrong.

italo: You were wrong when you said they dont see Pope Francis as successor of Peter.

Even that is too much to admit?

The person wey swear for you to dey lie don die?

The bold is a lie. I never said that they dont see him as peter's successor, I mentioned that they have theirs who they also believe to be Peter's direct successor.
.....and if thats true, who exactly is the true successor?
Theirs or yours?

Eating a special dish of Rice and Fishstew prepared by mum!

AWESOME!!!

chukwudi44: WHERE DID THAT VERSE MENTION PURGATORY? YOU DON START TO ADD TO THE BIBLE.PURGATORY IS ONLY MENTIONED AS PRISON IN 1 PET 3:19-21.IT WAS NOT THE SAME THING WITH HELL/HADES

You see....

Italo, can you 'see' your brother saying hades/sheol is not purgatorium (purgatory).

It shows he hasn't learned and he talks before he learns.
Educate him pls.

Hades is not translated purgatory, its rather translated hell.

What's translated purgatory is the latin word 'purgatorium' which is also Hades. (I guess there's no other greek word that is closer)

chukwudi44: By the way, is that 99.9999% of like doctrines?......I urge you to go on listing

HYPOCRITE WHY DID YOU RUN AWAY FROM LISTING THEIR "NUMEROUS" DIFFERENCES

How many doctrines are there??
The ones I listed are major ones.
They are sufficient to be tagged 'numerous' but the little you listed is not yet 99.99999% as you claim.

Besides, I referred you to Enigma if you wanted more (he has a lot more) and to be educated about these things because that's not what I'm here for.

chukwudi44: THE FACT IS THAT THE ORTHODOX CHURCH ARE EQUALLY "GUILTY" OF 99.99% OF THE "SINS" YOU PROTESTANTS ACCUSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OF

That's not my business.

You have not listed 99.99999% same doctrines you claim you have.

italo: So he should remove the 1st 6 from our common beliefs with the Orthodox when they have been our common beliefs from the days of the Apostles...millenia before you punks and fraudsters popped up?

Alright, let him leave them there.

italo: OLODO!

They agree that Pope Francis is the direct successor of St. Peter who was bishop of Rome. And we both believe in the apostolic succession of each other.

Don't you know they have their own bishops (popes) as you may call them that they believe is equal to Francis
and is fallible.

I should not be the one to teach you this.
Educate yourself!

italo: Stop being dubious. If he starts to list all Catholic Doctrines that they agree with, do you know how many it will be?

....So, why did he stop listing?
Is scared to expose your erroneous doctrines that were not practiced by the apostles?

Don't be scared, list them.
We already all know you practice things not practised by the apostles.

italo:
Which is it? The passage is about judgement only, judgement and its aftermath or you dont know?

This is the 2nd time I'm asking.

How many will I answer this?
I have answered this before. It talks about Judgment and the reward that comes with it!

The reward is not specified again, as I said!

italo: Because I see no other reward for saints worth mentioning besides heaven.

That's why you and the catholic church say its heaven, right?

What if the reward is the reign with Christ for 1000 years?

Then you and the catholic church are utterly wrong besides, the reward of heaven does not come until after general judgment of rev 20:13.


You and the catholic church need to learn not to conclude on uncertain things or you make yourselves false teachers if you conclude wrongly.

italo: This cannot be the reason you ascert that they hadn't been judged. I ask again: give me your reason.

Sincerely, that's the reason. Revelation 20 states clearly that those in hades will be judged in the second judgment and makes no implication that they are judged in the first.

italo: If Jesus didn't state whether or not they were judged why are you so sure they weren't? Mr Bible alone..or are you appealing to tradition not in the Bible? [/b]

The reason above applies.
I don't imply conclusions from uncertain issues.

italo: Can you provide evidence that all dead people go to hades/sheol/purgatory?

Including Elijah and Enoch?

How ignorant can you be!

You make a mockery of yourself with that question.
In your own bible, is stated that those men you mentioned died?

italo: Clap! Clap!! Clap!!! Brilliant!

OLODO!

Kumuyi that showed you Rev 20:13-15 refused to show you that there was already the 1st Judgement in verses 4 & 5 of the same chapter. He didnt show you because it would corroborate Catholic teaching on purgatory after Particular Judgement and before General judgement.

To yourself and fellow catholic brothers, you av made a point right??

Hope you don't mind showing me where that passage says they will be casted to hades after the first judgment....truth twister!

Keep embarrassing yourself in a public forum.

italo: OLODO! If only Kumuyi had shown you the 1st Judgement! Poor you.

The Catholic Church teaches that souls in purgatory are heaven bound, meaning they are in the book of life.

and thats contrary to the bible teaching that they will be judged and casted into the lake of fire if found unworthy!

By the way, is it you or the catholic church that put the names of the souls in hades in the book of life?- truth twister!

italo: Now I hope you have been able to prove to yourself that that your hades/sheol/purgatory exists after the 1st Judgement, exactly as is taught by the Catholic Church.

That's contrary to bible teaching!!
Prove from that passage that they are sent to purgatory!

Or can't you prove it from that passage?

I know you won't like to see light....as you've been fed with all these dogmas from childhood, accepting truths Is one of the hardest things for you cos
believe in what the catholic church teach as the truth and you don't study.

italo: Note: I will only answer any further questions if/when i like if you answer the bold and my other questions.

Hope your questions have been answered, for the evidence that dead people go to hades, it will be revealed as we unravel, truths will unfold to you.

italo: And its been days now. No answer.

Hope you have the answer now?

chukwudi44: 1.the father is GOD
2.The son is GOD
3.tHE Spirit is GOD
4.ALL three are one GOD
5.Jesus died for our Salvation
6.Jesus rose on the third day
7.Mary remained a perpertual virgin
8.Beleif in the validity of infact baptism
9.Prayers for the dead
10.Veneration of saints
11.Use of Images
12.Beleif on the sacraments
13.Beleif on the docrine of apostolic succession
14.Beleif in the validity of the deutoroncanonms
15.Belief in the validity of scriture + sacred tradition
16.Beleiof in the writings of the early chruch fathers
17.Beleif on the ecumenical councils before the schism

........ETC

I CAN GO ON AND ON

fyi I dont in arguments with trolls so if yo have nothing to discuss better back off

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH(ALSO CALLED THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHUIRCH) IS DOCTRINALLY SIMILAR TO THE ORTHODOX CHURCH

When I say list, you should understand that

I mean only the one mutually exclusive to u guys. The first 6 are believed by 90% of all christian denominations....and for number 13 and 14, that's where your disagreement is at its apex.


You believe your pope is Peter's direct successor and infallible....they believe theirs is Peter's direct successor and fallible.

Who do we believe??

Don't let me expound the deuterocanon issues for you ooo cos that would be too bad for you. (You have already lied that you both agree on the same deuterocanons, yet you have different bibles)


By the way, is that 99.9999% of like doctrines?......I urge you to go on listing.

You better stop being deceived and choose to see light.

italo: In the translation of more than 70% of the world's Christians - Catholic and Orthodox.

Thank God it's not all christians, as everyone cannot be deceived to accept erroneous teaching from the catholic church. Some will surely see light (the truth)!

italo: Its not what the Bible teaches you are holding. It's what Kumuyi teaches. The bamboozling is by Kumuyi. That, you're vulnerable to

Of course, Kumuyi did not teach me all these though, He contributed. All what I say are truths from the Bible (cos that's what's I'm vulnerable to) and it will all be expound in subsequent posts.

italo: Yet you declare authoritatively that the passage isnt talking about the aftermath of judgement. Meanwhile you dont know if reward means heaven (which means it could be heaven - an aftermath of judgement) ...and you say destruction is eternal damnation (which is an aftermath of judgement)

Of course, I said so because the passage did not state what the reward is....and we both know that God's destruction is eternal damnation in Hell.

italo: This doesn't make sense.

This is hanky-panky. No?

Make yourself clear: is the passage talking about judgement alone, judgement and its aftermath or you dont know?

Like I said above and I gave my reason for that. You on the other did not give reasons for declaring that that reward is heaven.

italo: ..."reasons" which you will keep in the dark, you will not reveal it in the light. You have to explain why you just declare that the rich man hadnt been judged without any reason or proof.

Now, the reasons and explanation will be given below and not 'hidden in darkness' as you said.

italo: How can Lazarus be comforted and the Rich man tormented...without judgement?

Jesus did not state that they were judged, did he?

You and the catholic church implied and concluded that....right?

italo: Now you agree there's a state/place that people are after death where they undergo torments and their lot can be affected by living men.

We both agree on this state, though we call it different names. You just think it is before judgement, not after.

Who goes to this place after death? Everybody?



But before further questions, make sure to clarify your position on the bold above. You cant be dubiously putting down contradictory and incoherent points and expect me to be wasting my time with your insincerity.

I hope my position has been fully clarified and if there's still any outstanding, I hope they will after the bible exposition.



Regarding the bold, yes. Every dead goes there.

I just don't think its before judgment, I know its before judgment.

italo: Yes to both questions.

Having agreed that the catholic church teaches that souls in purgatory are all heaven bound and they go there after judgment we can go to the analysis (going through the bible) and conclusion.


Now, the whole thing after your agreement on the purgatory by the catholic church)

Sheol (hebrew)/ Hades (greek) usually translated Hell by bible translators but generally mean 'an abode/realm of the dead'....and Jesus described the richman as 'being tormented in hades'.

Note that sheol/hades is also 'purgatorium' (purgatory in english).

They are different from Gehenna (eternal hell) as used by Jesus in Matthew 5:30
'And if your right hand causes you to
stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better
for you to lose one part of your body than for
your whole body to go into hell (gehenna).'

and 23:33

'Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how
can ye escape the damnation of hell (gehenna)?'

It is to be noted that Christ also went to this Hades when he died (Acts 2:30-31)

"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that
God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the
fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he
would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the
resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left
in hell (hades), neither his flesh did see corruption."

And here, in 2 Peter 2:4, the Apostle Peter confirms that The sinning angels are reserved in hell (hades)....for judgment.


Finally, in Revelation, and here's the reason I said Hell(hades) is not eternal....because it will be emptied (of the dead), and casted into the lake of fire and the dead in it will be judged as shown in revelation 20:13-15.

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in
it; and death and hell(hades) delivered up the dead
which were in them: and they were judged
every man according to their works.

This verse exposes and embarrasses the false teaching of Italo and the catholic church that they are judged before taken to sheol/hades/purgatorium. (Hell or purgatory) as translators may put it, they are judged after it is emptied, not before.

14 And death and hell(hades) were cast into the lake of
fire. This is the second death.

This is the reason I said Hades is not eternal, it will surely be casted into the lake of fire as the Bible rightly puts it.


15 And whosoever was not found written in the
book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The final verse destroys the teaching that all souls in hades/sheol/purgatorium (hell or purgatory) are heaven bound. The bible opposes that, it shows that after judging them, all that are not found worthy (in the book of life) will be cast into the lake of fire.

All these reveals that italo does not study,--he just eats and swallows all he's taught by the catholic church.

It further confirms Italo and the catholic church- false teachers.
Anyway, Jesus said all these- that there will be false teachers.

When the truth is available, it exposes, destroys lies, false teaching and twisted truth.

The truth always prevail!

italo: I repeat: "He will suffer loss, yet will be saved, but only as through the fire" refers to purgatory.

Refers to purgatory in the (only) catholic church's translation.

italo: That's nothing new. You always disagree with truth.

Thats what the catholic church taught...and you accepted it as the truth.... I dont accept that as true cos thats not what the bible taught. The catholic church cannot bamboozle me with erroneous teachings cos I'm not vunerable to it as you are!

Its not your fault though, its what you've been taught since childhood, not what you studied.

italo: Now you think the reward for those whose works abide is not heaven. You think it's a cup of ice-cream?!

You think God destroying people after judgement is not hell. You think its just a light knock on the head?!

reward- only God knows.

Destruction is definitely eternal damnation in hell.

italo: No wonder you think people being saved as through fire after suffering loss is not purgatory.

You re-phrased wrongly as usual.

as I mentioned earlier, this isnt your fault.


Over to your questions which is not quoted (I dont know the reason anyway)

sheol/hades is not eternal as I have said.

If Jesus said the rich man was enduring torments in hades- then so be it!
He definitely is...and before judgement not after (I have my certain reasons).

....and for the ones that Paul was talking about, they must be in Hades/Sheol.

I think you should get a Gideons bible translation (the small blue nt bible) to be clear so as to avoid misinterpretation.

Back to your church's teaching on purgatory,

I need simple answers for my questions!

The Catholic Church teaches that all purgatory souls are heaven bound....yes or no?

It also teaches that purgatory is after judgement....right?

Give me simple answers and lets wrap this up!.... and know who's the false teacher...

italo: I said v15 specifically speaks about purgatory, not the whole passage.

"He will suffer loss, yet will be saved, but only as through the fire."

if it talks about purgatory, then that passage will mean

"He will suffer loss (in purgatory), yet will be saved, but only as through the fire (in purgatory)."

but if its judgement, then we'll have

"He will suffer loss (in judgement), yet will be saved, but only as through the fire (in judgement)."

the only way the truth can come out is by substituting it that way.

italo: Judgement and its aftermath (heaven, hell and purgatory).

I disagree.
The passage talks of just one. Unless you have tagged reward as heaven.

italo: They will pass through the stage, though when St. Paul says "everyman," he seems more concerned with those who even building on the foundation (v12), not those destroying (v17).

if they must pass, their works will either abide or burn. If it abides, they have a reward. If it burns, they go to purgatory (re-phrased according to what you have said).

italo: Just like when he says "everyman" in v8 while specifically talking about himself (who plants) and Apollos (who waters)

He talks about Himself and Apollos in that verse and goes further to a general verse in subsequent verses.

italo: You see how I'm giving you straightforward answers.

If it were you, you'd be going round in circles, scared of truth.

No, your answers are not straightfoward. They're cunning answers trying to take 'all positions' to be right in 'all ways'.

italo: Are you convinced that there is a state after death that is neither eternal bliss nor eternal damnation?

If its after death, there is but after judgement, there's none of such (according to bible reports) as your first answer suggested there's 'purgatory' after judgement.

italo: Yes. I refuse to stand to declare I believe in to the enemy of truth.

Even Jesus ignored enemies of truth in their foolishness many times.

It did change a thing about him.

Let me imitate the master.

You believe the truth (about the marriage in cana) is 'Mary requsted Jesus to provide wine when it was exhausted'.....yet, you cannot declare it. Instead, you call someone that does not believe in the same as you do 'enemy of truth'.

For me, I believe that passage says Mary reported to Jesus....and Jesus replied that 'it wasnt their business' (re-phrased). However, the people obeyed Mary by going to Jesus when she directed them to Him...and they got results because they obeyed Jesus.

I dont see how the above is a lie as italo tagged it.

Or just simply explain the simple story (as the Catholic Church explained it to you) and stop diverting by tagging someone 'enemy of truth' and claiming you're ignoring.

italo: The above is largely irrelevant. You deliberately misconstrued my position because that is the only way you can argue against me.

Where did I say the fire is purgatory?

you said the passage relates to purgatory....and the fire should mean 'purgatory fire' too.

Well, sorry for misunderstanding your point.
Now, to be clear.
Where or what exactly is the passage talking about. Judgement or purgatory?

italo: No. It is not another thing. It is those going straight to eternal damnation with no redemption. No purgatory.

Alright.

Does that mean these set of people will not pass through the stage verse 13 is talking about when it said 'everyman'?

'

italo: You're arguing in my favour. You've pointed out that the initial is not the same as the subsequent.

Thank you.

that is the malicious explaination I opposed. In that context, they can never have different meanings because Paul was talking about exactly the same place.
I support that it is judgement 'fire' not purgatory. (reason: the passage says 'the day of the Lord which definitely means Judgement and that everyone passes through that stage)
If you say that fire is purgatory, we'll put in the text context.

Original words. 1Cor 3:13-15

13. Each one's work will become clear; for the day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

In judgement context, it will read.



13. Each one's work will become clear; for the day (judgement day) will declare it, because it will be revealed by (judgement); and the (judgement) will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15. If anyone's work is burned (in judgement fire), he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through (jugdement).

In your purgatory context, it will read thus

13. Each one's work will become clear; for the day (purgatory day) will declare it, because it will be revealed by (purgatory); and the (purgatory) will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15. If anyone's work is burned (in purgatory fire), he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through (purgatory).

your subsequent post is not relevant to what is being discussed.

italo: Find them in v17.

17 - But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

this is another thing entirely....not pertaining to the purgatory issue...and if you say they will be destroyed, will they also pass through 'purgatory ' as preceding verses say they will?

italo: Thankfully, the Bible never mentions that the Saints themselves will encounter any fire. It only says that THEIR WORKS shall be tried and revealed in fire (judgement). If the works abide, Mary and adsonstone will receive their rewards (heaven). Amen?!

If the works dont abide, then comes suffering loss and being saved as through the fire (purgatory).

you have a 'wuru.wuru' explaination there.
How can the initial fire mean 'judgement' and the subsequent mean 'purgatory'?

If your explanation is true, what happens to those that will be condemned to hell?

....and pls, note.: the passage says 'as through ('by' in some version) #figure of speech...and not that anyone will go through fire.

chukwudi44:

bros are these the 'numerous' reasons you can think of? you quite amaze meOf corse they do not beleive in the authourity of the pope as the was the major reason of the schism in the first place. About purgatory who told you they dont beleive in it? they only have another version of purgatory not that they do not beleive in the act of purgation or praying for the dead.

On biblical canon the ohodox church do not have a unified canon as most of them use the 73 books with th catholic church with a few churches like the ethiopian orthodox church who has up to 80 canon.

The fact remainms that these churches are 99.999999% similar to the CATHOLIC CHURCH(ALSO CALLED THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH)

http://www.antiochian.org/content/infant-baptism-what-church-believes

oga, calm down nau.

Hope you can mention the 99.999999% of doctrines you both agree on, if you cant, keep quiet....and if you can, go ahead and list them.

The few I mentioned make up the major differences and its greater than 0.00001% (which already makes you a liar).
If you need more, Enigma will give you.

....and as I said, list out the 99.99999% of same doctrines that you claim you have.

italo: Isnt it unfair practice to leave my question pending after I have asked at least two times, only to expect me to answer this question you just asked?

first things first.
You question cannot be answered directly because it does not have a direct answer in the passage it is.

I believe we're getting there.
May we continue to hasten our getting there.

italo: ^^^

If you deny that Mary made a request of Jesus and he granted it, I have nothing to discuss with you on that topic.

I will save my breath for men of integrity.

I can now see clearly that you cannot stand to declare what you believe in.
If you could, you wont write what I've quoted.

italo: 1Cor3:15 doesnt mention that everybody will suffer loss and be saved as through the fire.

Indeed, v14 shows that some will receive their rewards immediately, without any loss or hassles.

Mary and the Saints (known and unknown) fall into this Category.

As for the Popes, just like the rest of us, some of them are certainly Saints, the others could be Saints, in purgatory or in hell.

but the passage says everyman's work will be tested 'by fire' (in the same place) that some will suffer loss and others wont.

If that place is purgatory, Mary and some other saints will pass through without suffering any loss and we both know that according to catholic teaching, no one passes through purgatory without suffering loss.

italo: I am asking you, not Paul. If you dont know, say so. Where are the dead in 1 Cor 15:29?

If they were in heaven, would they need the baptism?

If they were in hell, would baptism be of any use?

Pls answer those questions.

we are getting somewhere...calm down, they will be answered.

italo: It is not Italo and Sal C that wrote the Bible in Greek and Hebrew. It was the Holy Spirit.

Hades/sheol have never necessarily meant the place of eternal torment. You must accept that. If it is not eternal, how can it be the heaven/hell you speak of?

I agree thats (sheol/hades translated hell) is not eternal because the bible confirms its not eternal.
Thank God we are getting somewhere.

regarding the bold, if it has not always been eternal then the hell the rich man was, is not the eternal hell.

Are we on the same page?

italo: When someone avoids you, it could be because he is ignorant and unable to refute the truth. Yes.

But have you ever thought that it might be because he has found you ignorant yet unwilling to accept the truth?

Is that not a good reason to avoid someone?

infact, thats more than an excellent reason to ignore.

....but are you scared to declare that Mary requested that from Jesus.
If you cant, you're hypocritical.

If Mary really made the unrecorded or 'hidden (in the passage)' request, we know its because Christ's time is not yet come then.

Now, answer these.
1. Has Christ time now come?
2. If it has, will it ever go?
3. If it wont, is it necessary to access Christ through Mary.

Answer honestly and dont twist cos they're straight foward.

italo: Oh yeah? Maybe it was the infallible Kumuyi that wrote this then:

1Cor 15:29 - Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?

a piece of advice for you- dont misinterprete me, if you dont understand, ask me before concluding.
Conclusion after misinterpretation is always false and the end result is a lie.

I said 'Paul did not state that' after your question which read 'where are the dead (Paul was talking about)'

the answer clearly meant that Paul did not state where the dead he was talking about were. Understood?
....and not the above conclusion you drew due to inability to comprehend.

italo: By "reason" you mean the Nigerian street parlance which could mean "manipulate and twist to our favour." Right?

That's it up there, go ahead and twist it as usual.

yawns....

italo: Shouldn't you answer where the dead in the verse are before you ask me more questions?

now that you understand what I wrote first (I assume), you should also understand the next.

italo: The Greek word "hades" that was used in that passage doesn't just mean a place of eternal torment.

Hades is the standard translation for Sheol in the Septuagint, Josephus, Philo of Alexandria, and other Jewish works written in Greek.

Like other first-century Jews literate in Greek, early Christians used the Greek word Hades to translate the Hebrew word Sheol. Thus, in Acts 2:27, the Hebrew phrase in Psalm 16:10 appears in the form: "you will not abandon my soul to Hades." (this statement wouldnt make sense if hades were eternal). Death and Hades are repeatedly associated in the Book of Revelation.[36]

The New Testament uses the Greek word Hades to refer to the abode of the dead, a shadowlike existence forgotten by the living (e.g., Acts 2:31; Revelation 20:13).[37] Only[b] one passage describes hades as a place of torment, the story of Lazarus and Dives.[/b][Luke 16:19-31] Here, Jesus depicts a wicked man suffering fiery torment in hades, which is contrasted with the bosom of Abraham, and explains that it is impossible to cross over from one location to the other. Some scholars believe that this parable reflects the intertestamental Jewish view of hades (or sheol) as containing separate divisions for the wicked and righteous.[37][38] In Revelation 20:13-14 hades is itself thrown into the "lake of fire" after being emptied of the dead.

In Latin, Hades could be translated as Purgatorium (Purgatory in English use) after about 1200 A.D.,[39] but no modern English translations relates Hades to Purgatory. as 3 B

Like other first-century Jews literate in Greek, early Christians used the Greek word Hades to translate the Hebrew word Sheol. Thus, in Acts 2:27, the Hebrew phrase in Psalm 16:10 appears in the form: "you will not abandon my soul to Hades." Death and Hades are repeatedly associated in the Book of Revelation.[36]

...from Wikipedia

to justify Purgatory, Italo and Sal C have gone back to the greek word translated 'hell' in that passage which truly is sheol or hades which means 'abode of the dead' (translated Hell) and Jesus himself refers to it as a place of torment.

To link it with Purgatory, they have gone to the Latin meaning which says its purgatory.

Now is purgatory and hell the same?
No.
Catholics teach that souls in purgatory are all heaven bound.

The bible teaches that people in hell will be judged and anybody that his name is not in the book of life will be condemned into the lake of fire (study Rev 20)

we will go through this study and find out if purgatory (as taught by the catholic church) truly exist.

italo: Clear road.

Display of ignorance after being unable to refute the truth. Smh

Enigma: Nice.

I have a similar compilation of things/doctrines that the Eastern Orthodox (aka Orthodox Catholic Church) disagree with the Roman Catholic church denomination about.

And of course you are right, Eastern Orthodox can actually be said to be the true "Catholics" and not so much the Roman Catholic organisation. Roman Catholic is Roman Catholic --- NOT "the Catholic".

Only by wuruwuru mathematics of 5-4=5 (or some other folly) will someone say that the Roman Catholic organisation is "the Catholic Church".

pls, put it down for Chukwudi44 and educate him, he said the roman catholic and orthodox are 99.9999% in doctrinal concordance.