₦airaland Forum

nyabinghi:
drogba never won an african nations cup with his civ but less talented players did, national performance is over rated to me. Messi has tried playing two back to back finals, messi has been good for club and country, failure to win the copa or world cup won't diminish him.baggio never won the world cup or even paolo maldini or franco baresi.

When comparing all time great players, the ultimate test is the World Cup.
If Pele and Maradona had not won the world cups they would not have been placed on the high pedestal they occupied (and still occupy) for so long.
That is what separates them from Cruyff, Di Stefano who had possibly greater club careers (certainly greater than Maradona's) but are still viewed by most as Tier 2. For now Messi is on that Tier 2 with them.

A40:
George Best was overrated biko! Same way Beckham was overrated doesn't mean they were not good players

I don't recall typing anything about Littbarski, jowo direct your complaint through the appropriate channel

Rummenigge and Pele are obviously not in the same era

The rest na you take your mouth talk am

My list was about the 60s, a decade during which George Best was one of the prominent wide midfielders and in which he won the European Player of the Year and he led Man Utd to a European Cup.
You can name another wide midfielder from the 60s to replace him but i am sure it will be hard to find. The fact that you joined the debate in support of someone who wanted to shunt Rummenigge in by force from the 80s shows how fair you are in your analysis.

A40:
That is typical Cameroon. Shebi na how them dey always chance us that year be that

Overall though Argentina no try. The contrast between the Argentine team of 86 and 90 was just too ghastly


The British with their oun ta ni la n gbe l'aroge syndrome. All their players are world-class.

Them go call Beckenbauer, Brits go wan use Bobby Moore compare
People go call Gerd Mueller them go wan use George Best compare

That is why Littbarski is better than George Best and Rummenigge will make 1st team of Pele's era abi?
True the British have never produced any world class player, only Germany produces world class players....and the best defenders in history ( Italians are only lucky because of the league they play in).

raumdeuter:
To be honest. Na Cameroun teach those Argentines. If you see the kicks Cannigia and Maradona suffered on that day?

Benjamin Massing kicked Cannigia so tey his boot lost. Ref had to tell him to go look for his boot before the red card. Or na Kana Biyik red card you wan talk?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeRlJJbtdHc

Lol i will never forget that tackle. I was supporting Argentina because of beef from Maroc 88. That tackle was hip level!

coogar:
it could be argued they went to la liga to collect pension. in their prime, they would have put up a better fight in la liga. i never rated zambrotta though but thuram/camnavaro were excellent defenders in their prime!

thuram was past his peak at barca, he was about 34 when he joined barca. what could he possibly contribute at that age? fabio cannavaro was also about 33 when he joined madrid. you cannot beat the italians when it comes to defending & team organisation. they deserve their credits abeg

NO ....the Germans are the best defenders. Carsten Ramelow, Linke and Per Mertesacker

Omo i digress.....who be dis guy wey wan popo Djokovic?

coogar:
let's be honest....
save for sammer - italians have the best defenders. i dunno where they harvest them from.

Its cultural. Scirea was the best in the 80s, Baresi the best in the 90s, Maldini the best in the 2000s in my opinion.
I am sure Dayo would give it to Thomas Berthold, Sammer, and Jens Nowotny respectively

coogar:
what about costacurta?

A wonderful side kick.......but always a sidekick. He was never the boss.

coogar:
sammer won 2 league titles for dortmund & then won the champions league the 3rd year. he went to euro 96 & won the competition becoming the player of the tournament - i think he won a ballon d'or that year too, the first defender to do so since beckenbauer.

my list would be.....
•matthias sammer
•claudio gentile
•paulo maldini
•franco baresi

desailly, nesta, kohler are 3rd tier abeg.

It depends on which era you are looking at.
Strictly 90s you have to leave out Gentile. Desailly,Kohler and Nesta and Stam are probably 2nd tier for the 90s below Sammer and Baresi who are the 2 indisputables for that era.

Maldini is at the Sammer Baresi level also, though played most of 90s as a left back.
Nesta straddled the 90s and 2000s, but before his body broke down he was imperious.

raumdeuter:
Bergomi I saw at Inter Milan cant organize shit. I would even have Stam and Blanc ahead of him. Stam used to be a wall in his days and Blanc though not good on one vs one he can organize the defence well

90's and below defenders

Sammer, Baresi, Maldini, Kohler, Cannavaro, Stam, Nesta, Dessaily

Stam for Bergomi is ok by me. Both not the greatest organizers but tough tacklers in their prime. Bearing in mind Bergomi peaked early in his career (mid to late 80s) before a mid career decline in the 90s he should probably not be in the 90s list.
Sammer, Baresi,Maldini and pre-injury Nesta above all others

coogar:
littbarski is like podolski-he's mediocre
i would even put fischer ahead of littbarski in that west germany era. their best player then was their goalie(schumacer) and maybe paul breitner.



i actually think sammer is better than beckenbauer. his injury denied us one of the finest defenders you would ever see. sammer is the truth. he owned everything in the box.

Sammer was very very good no doubt, but he got his injury at 30 not like Fat Ronaldo who was cut down in his prime.
Of the central defenders i saw play live i rate Baresi and Sammer above others not just for the way the marked their man but the way they organized the defence. Kohler, Bergomi, Dessailly, Nesta and Maldini get honorable mention.

raumdeuter:
Rummenigge ahead of Best anyday even if na to rearrange the formation, Littbarski ahead of Charlton

As per Rummenigge he was a forward, he can not displace Alfredo and Pele there. If those 2 are removed i am sorry he can't displace Muller, Kubala, Eusebio, Puskas e.t.c

Unless there is a plane crash of the legends of the game there is no way Rummenigge makes the list EVEN IF WE USE W-M FORMATION OR 2-3-5

raumdeuter:
Rummenigge ahead of Best anyday even if na to rearrange the formation, Littbarski ahead of Charlton

Littbarski?
Its true. Especially how Littbarski played for Cologne, RC Paris, United Chiba and Brummell Sendai winning the German FA Cup once and UEFA cup runner up in his whole club career.

raumdeuter:
Wolfgang Overath, Gerd Muller, KarlHeinz Rummenigge, Pierre Littbarski Iron curtain duo Mattias Sammer and Jurgen Kohler, Paul Breittner, Andreas brehme,

Littbarski ahead of George Best? Abeg oga pass me that dutchie
Rummenigge ahead of who on the list? Pele or Di Stefano?

leggo:
quote author=afrodoc2 post=35555824]


Lmao....
Your team would get slaughtered.

Kaka is much much below George Best

Xavi is below Garrincha, if you put Ronaldinho in that RW spot he is still below Garrincha.

Roberto Carlos with his positional indiscipline would be devoured all day.

But where you committed blasphemy was Makelele at DM with Der Kaiser on the opposing end.
but xavi and garrincha have different roles and are set up for different purposes.. my formatting is wobbly.. kaka at his peak is not far off Best.. I'm however sure that with your slide first think later defenders messi and cr7 would stroll into the goal for fun...raumdeuter what's wrong with Best

Fachetti and Beckenbauer slide first think later?

There is no single defender in the world now as elegant as Beckenbauer. NONE
When you see Rio Ferdinand, Mattias Sammer, Fernando Hierro.....you are seeing copycats of Beckenbauer. only he was much better at toughness,elegance,reading the game.

raumdeuter:
Where is the greatest European striker of all time Gerd Muller? Or Johann Cryuff or Platini

I went with late 50s to 1970....Pele's era as the guy said.

I am one of the greatest Cruyff fans ever. I always place him in my all time list ( even if its to change formation to 4-3-3- or 3-4-3).

But Cruyff and Muller reigned in the 70s, Platini in the 80s.

Muller who i rate highly does not make the starting list also because of the preponderance of more complete forwards like Pele,Alfredo,Eusebio.
However as a scorer of goals he was a jazz man, the spiritual father of Ruud,Inzaghi, Crespo but far far far better than them.

raumdeuter:
Moore Charlton Best?

You are taking a piss

Dayo no vex.
I remove Moore, Charlton and Best and replace them with the great Germans Schulz, Overath and Grabowski!
Why are you so fanatical about Hitler's race you unrepentant Ogbomoso man?

Nihilist:
For a 90s Worldup winners flavour,

I'll go


..........................................TAFFARELL............................................

.......CAFU........MALDINI..........NESTA......ROBERTO CARLOS.......

....................................DUNGA...................................

.......PIRES..............ZIDANE.......................RIVALDO........

.........................RONALDO.........ROMARIO................................

The only weak(ish) link there to me is Pires...

Limiting it to only winners makes it difficult. Many winnnig teams carry passengers. Its better an open list for all ballers in the 90s

raumdeuter:
Moore Charlton Best?

You are taking a piss

I know you are anti-British.
I won't be drawn into your endless arguments
I clearly stated that that was likely not the very best team from that era, just a good example.
Either draw up your own team or..........do a Johnny Walker
Thanks.

leggo:
You start your ancient of days team against this mashup

BUFFON

LAHM. PUYOL VIDIC. R.CARLOS



MAKELELE.


XAVI. KAKA


RONALDINHO




MESSI. RONALDO

Lmao....
Your team would get slaughtered.

Kaka is much much below George Best

Xavi is below Garrincha, if you put Ronaldinho in that RW spot he is still below Garrincha.

Roberto Carlos with his positional indiscipline would be devoured all day.

But where you committed blasphemy was Makelele at DM with Der Kaiser on the opposing end.

leggo:
oh I didn't see the link you put up.. is the list however set in stone? you think if you had a greatest XI from Pele's era play FCB they would win?

..........................................YASHIN............................................

.......SANTOS........MOORE..........SCHNELLINGER......FACHETTI.......

....................................BECKENBAEUR...................................

.......GARRINCHA..............CHARLTON.......................BEST........

.........................DI STEFANO..........PELE................................

I am sure this is not the best possible team from that era, but if all these talents were in one club they would bury Barca or any other modern club. It should not even be up for debate.

leggo:
lol.. coogar said he delivers for club and country, surely he must have won on the grandest stage in his club too.. I respect biggie ronaldo of course.

I understand where you are coming from in terms of improved team defending and tactical defending, however this is counter-balanced by the inept individual defending these days as well as banning of tough tackling in football.

For e.g so called world class defenders like Chiellini would have struggled to make any Italian World Cup Squad from 1982 to 1994.
Smalling and Phil Jones chopping England caps anyhow yet Steve Bruce ( Man Utd captain) was never capped and Gary Pallister had 22 caps over his whole career.
These days it is easy for any suegbe defender to gather caps because good options are limited, or what is Lescott doing with 26 caps?

leggo:
did ronaldo win a underground UCL we are unaware of?

Ronaldo won 2 world cups( 1 as a squad member and 1 as a boss). Also played in 2 final matches scoring 15 world cup goals.
World Cup trumps UCL, Has Messi won any underground world cups we have not heard of?
I am not going into player comparisons but please discuss El Fenomeno with the respect he deserves.

darkenedrebel:
well...I wasn't born in Pele's time.
I can only judge from video clips online & from what I've seen Maradonna was a better player.

I also strongly believe Messi plays than both of them.
Messi is also gonna the world cup & that would be the end of the discourse.✘

When Messi wins the world cup as a star ( and not like Abby Wambach) he will join the discussion........UNTIL then he should line up in GOAT Tier 2 with Don Alfredo, Cruyff et al. He is a great player no doubt and the flavor of the day/month/year but in years/decades to come not winning the world cup would count against him.

leggo:
zidane , cannavaro , xavi and lahm are greater players than messi? I hope I'm misconstruing your post

You are misconstruing it.
When the greatest ever players are being assessed the World Cup is the "Ultimate Divider". Cannavaro,Lahm and Xavi are not on that list.
The World Cup is the main reason Cruyff and Di Stefano are rated below Pele and Maradona.
Alfredo ruled the 50s and won 5 STRAIGHT EUROPEAN CUPS (scoring in all 5 finals), Cruyff won 3 STRAIGHT EUROPEAN CUPS in the 70s.......neither won the World Cup.
If Messi does not win the world cup, in decades to come he will be placed at the level of those 2......below Pele and Maradona.

coogar:
messi has to win the world cup to be mentioned in the same category as pele & maradona. it's becoming embarrassing for him that he cannot win a spoon if xavi or iniesta isn't in the team. maybe argentina should adopt xavi & iniesta or they should change their national team shirt to that of barcelona.

pele is greater than messi....
people talking about the level of footie in pele's time. it was more difficult then than now. there was no player substitution when pele played & a career-ending tackle from behind was perfectly legal.

would messi survive in the 60s/70s when pele played? i doubt it. today's footballers are too soft to cope with what footballers of yore faced. the only world cup pele failed to win was in 1966 & portugal came out all to injure him in the game. the tackles are on youtube....if such is attempted these days, the offender would go to prison!

I think you should show them video clips of Ron "Chopper" Harris and Norman "Bite yer legs" Hunter from the 60s.
While it is true that team defending has improved, individual defending has worsened especially over the last decade and almost all forms of tough tackling have been outlawed.
Messi would have had a career ending injury at age 21 if he had played in the 60s, football and footballers are so much softer now.
The Battles of Berne,Santiago e.t.c tell us that

LOL see back and forth o.
But who is that said Messi is already a greater legend than Maradona and Pele?

Unfortunately he has to win world cups to get that accolade. Until he does he would be slightly below them on the next rung with Cruyff, Best, Di Stefano.

Trolls always aim to derail threads or just sow discord, they are not interested in meaningful discourse. The earlier all reasonable posters here get that the better for this thread. Identify the trolls and pay them no attention.

elampiro:
Whatever!

Anyway, just saying I know him already. You guys said I will like him. I don't know whether I really like him or not. He might end up being the new Patrick Veira. He has a sound ability to dictate the flow of a game, but I can't tell if he has the ability to frustrate opposition attack on difficult days.

My analysis of his game (my post on previous page) was when he played only 45 minutes (second half) against USA in the world cup and came out with good stats. 43 accurate passes out of 44, and 100% long balls. Despite playing 45 minutes, his 8 long balls were the second highest in the game. His long balls were all ground balls, some were even split passes between opposition players. I also saw some of his highlights in his friendly matches in the build up to the world cup, then I looked at his stats that period.

But the question remains, is he a ball winner? Can he destroy when things are ugly against his team? This is where Mascherano has no rival. Without Mascherano, Robben had two clear goals against Argentina in the world cup. Mascherano tracked Robben's escape of defenders twice, and stopped him just as he was about to pull the trigger. Just like some said, when Hazard scored the lone goal against Man United last season, a player like Mascherano would have tracked him from the DM position. Carvalho is good, but there will be days things dont go smooth and you need someone to frustrate opposition free attacking play. Like when we played Everton, and when we played Arsenal in the FA Cup.



- As for the signings being proposed, Schneiderlin (another difficult name to pronounce. Janujaz, Rojo already) beats Matic in the very attributes Matic is respected for. However, stats can be misleading. But I like his rugged looks. He will be physical, something I very much think we need for a blend.

- Ramos. I don't take that news serious yet. My assessment is that Ramos is not a composed defender for the calibre that he is. He is only slightly better than Pepe in composure and organisation, but nothing compared to what you get from Vidic. Sometimes when you see Madrid defence against small teams, you wonder if that was a defence led by a world class as Ramos.

Ramos also lack pace which was why Neymar had a field day against him and Pique, and ate them for dinner in the Confederation cup final. Robben too in the world cup outpaced Ramos from a long distance for that famous goal. Ramos ought to have been sent off in the first half of the Confederation cup final when he went on a reckless tackle just because he didn't have the speed to match. However, his aerial prowess and heading accuracy in the opposition box is worth some millions.

LOL @whatever. u b girl?

I actually share your sentiments on Carvalho. He has the potential especially if he can improve his movement.
P.S He is not at Mascherano's level yet

weedtaker:
Abeg who the mention cavani here?? Dat one na dirty, i rather keep the FAT BOI, than swoop for cavani

We can keep the fat boi. But Falcao is gone and RVP's days are numbered.

SailorXY:
well I personally won't consider Woodward a bad businessman or having poor negotiation skills. we all know the position we found ourselves two years back - SAF & David Gill left together, Woody had to learn on the job & it was a different page to the behind-the-scene accounting & sponsorship negotiations he was used to. the learning curve, as well as Moyes, was too steep & the business on the pitch paid the ultimate price.

the following summer it was time to show that United hasn't exactly fallen as far as events on the pitch suggested, hence the guns-blazing shopping. IMO they were required, together with the new manager, to make a strong statement.

this summer, its time to apply more caution & be strong-headed too; which is exactly what I think Woody will/is do/ing.

I hope you are right.
What are those elampiric posts about?

Chicharito is a limited footballer. Very good finisher but limited as a player

coogar:
cavani is shyte!
chicharito is better than him - the only player in that french league we should be getting is alexandre lacazette.

he's the best all rounder striker in europe. he's still very young & so he can be modified to suit any tactical approach. i dunno why LVG isn't even paying him any attention.

Maybe he is afraid he is a flash in the pan.
Cavani in the last 2 seasons has averaged slightly better than 1 goal in 2 matches in the league despite being played out of position. He might not be the best striker out there but for the next few years he is going to be better than RVP or Falcao