In fact, you are double minded and uncertain. . .this is what you wrote on April 23rd.

frosbel: "The Jews answered Him (Jesus), 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.' ” (John 10:33)

Jesus had obviously claimed to be God. So just what had He said to upset His Jewish audience so much?

“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)

He didn’t say that He was simply like the Father. He said that they were “one.” In verse 36, Jesus makes it clear that He had referred to Himself as the “Son of God.” Logic alone would tell us that the “Son” of God would possess the same deity as the Father. Man begets man. God begets God. The Jews, however, didn’t believe any of His claims. Getting nowhere with them, Jesus then focused their attention on the works that He had done and would continue to do. If He wasn’t God, He reasoned, how could He have performed all those miracles? He supported His claim to be God by saying,

“…that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38 )

During the Last Supper, just after washing the disciples’ feet, Jesus made a bold statement:

“You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.” (John 13:13)

The New Testament was originally written in Greek. The Greek word for “Lord” is Kurios, meaning “God—supreme in authority. Jesus was making the point that they were to follow the example (serving one another) set by God Himself. Later that evening, He reiterated His claim by saying to Philip,

“…He who has seen Me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9)

Perhaps the most direct and profound example of Jesus claiming to be God is found at the end of the eighth chapter of John.

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham as born, I am.” (John 8:58 )

This may seem like a confusing answer, but the Jews knew exactly what He was claiming. By using the term “I am,” He was making Himself out to be Yahweh (God) of the Old Testament. We know that the Jews understood His claim, since verse 59 tells us that they wanted to stone Him. He was claiming to have existed not only before Abraham, but eternally. We find the name “I AM” first used when God called Moses to lead the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt. Not being crazy about the whole idea, Moses started making excuses. If he told the “sons of Israel” that the God of their fathers had sent him to them, what should he say if they asked, “What is His name?”

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

See how it stands in stark relief to your pasted "analysis".

frosbel:
Let a brother respond on my behalf , I have a report to deliver tomorrow, so cannot keep responding with long essays.

Another clear indication that you do not sieve what you cut-and-paste. . .the so called analysis says this:

And this is why they wanted to stone him and finally charged him, not with claiming to be "God," but claiming to be the Son of God. And of course, these Jews were not Trinitarians who presumed the term "Son of God" meant Jesus was also "God."

And yet it is clearly and unambiguously written in John just what the Jews were angry about.
(Joh 10:33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The contrast between your underlined words above and the highlighted part of John 10:33 is obvious. Clearly you have cognitive filters on when reading the Bible.
Here is a hint on what you ought to do before cutting-and-pasting: "Now the Bereans. . ."

Enoquin: I was reading the book of Daniel and I saw that when Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were cast into the furnace for not bowing down to the golden image, Daniel or rather Belteshazzar was not with them. My question is: was he not in the city or if he was, did he bow with the others?
Another question: Is Nebuchadnezzar, the first mad man in the bible?
And finally, the handwriting on the wall during the reign of King Belshazzar read MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN, why then did Daniel interprete MENE MENE TEKEL 'PERES'?
I would be grateful if I have the inputs from the regulars...

UPHARSIN and PERES are the same word in Chaldee (the language of Babylon).

And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. (Dan 5:25)

PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. (Dan 5:28)

. . .in the Hebrew OT the word translated Upharsin and Peres is Strong's H6537:
פּרס
peras (per-as')
(Chaldee); corresponding to H6536; to split up: - divide, [U-] pharsin.

The confusion arises because the translators translated it as you see in English. You can easily confirm what I have written.

frosbel:

You have been so brainwashed by the Trinity incomprehensible dogma that it can only take some combination of humility and God's wisdom to deliver you.

Is that all you have to say.
Your emotional words versus the clear witness of scripture.

frosbel:
First of all , God said no man can see him and live.

This is what comes from making haste rather than rightly dividing the word. Indeed man shall not see God and live. . .but why then did Abraham, Jacob, Isaiah and Ezekiel and John not die?
1. And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
(Gen 18:1)
2. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (Gen 32:30)
3. In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (Isa 6:1)
4. And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.(Eze 1:26)
5. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. (Rev 4:2)

So then these ones saw God and did not die as the scriptures clearly attest.

Has God contradicted himself? Of course not. The answer is to be found in the words of Jesus Himself and in the NT:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Joh 1:18)
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.(Joh 3:13)
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (Joh 14:9)
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Col 1:15)

And so when we look at the whole of scripture, a logical and consistent witness is found.
1. No man can see the invisible God (Col 1:15)
2. Yet the scriptures provide the names of men who did see God. Did they then see God, or did they see the express image of God?
3. Jesus Himself is the express image of the invisible God. . .and He is the one we see. In his words. . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;
4. And thus we conclude that these ones who saw God in OT times saw the Pre-Incarnate Word of God, thus conclusively showing that the Word of God had a pre-incarnate existence in Heaven before being manifest in the flesh. This is confirmed for us by Jesus Himself in John when in talking about he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven; refers to Himself as the Son of man which is in heaven. . .that is to say, the Son of man in Heaven is the one who has come down from heaven.
Even Ezekiel echoes this. . .upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

We now begin to understand why Jesus consistently and deliberately referred to Himself as the Son of man. So is proven the Pre-Incarnate existence of the Word of God.

It is interesting to note that the description of the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:9 is similar with John's in Revelation. Compare and judge for yourself.
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. (Dan 7:9)

His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. (Rev 1:14-15)

My brothers, let no one deceive you with clever sounding words about the truth of God being manifest in the flesh as Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

2. Jesus claimed equality with the Father.

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.(Joh 5:17-18)

The Jews were angry because of Jesus' violation of the Sabbath, but they were furious when he was so presumptuous as to claim equality with the Father - the implication of his words My Father worketh hitherto, and I work, an implication that is clear to John the writer of the gospel who adds this but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Jesus distinctly says "My Father" (ho pater mou). Not "our father", a claim to a peculiar relation to the Father. Worketh hitherto (heos arti ergazetai). . .Jesus put himself on a par with God's activity and thus justifies his healing on the Sabbath.

It is also noteworthy that the Jews did not refer to God as "My Father". If they did, they would qualify the statement with "in heaven". This Jesus did not do. He made a claim that the Jews could not misinterpret when he called God "My Father". His claim was to a unique relationship with God as His Father. Just as a human father's son must be fully human, God's Son must be fully God. All that the Father is, the Son is.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (Joh 5:26)

frosbel:
Jeremiah 33:3
New International Version (NIV)
3 ‘Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.’

. . .great and unsearchable things. You don't really believe that else you would have no problem believing this scripture:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.(1Ti 3:16)
What could be greater or more unsearchable than the mystery of godliness, to wit: God was manifest in the flesh

This verse from Timothy not only shows that Jesus is God but also affirms His bodily resurrection.

1. Jesus claimed equality with the Father.

On a number of occasions Jesus claimed to be equal to God the Father.
I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.(Joh 10:30-33)

The Jews clearly understood Jesus' words as a claim to be God. Their attempt to stone Him for blasphemy shows that they definitely understood the meaning of His words. It also shows that like you they did not stop to consider whether his claim to God was true or not!

frosbel:
Wow !! You lost me with this one, anyway I don't blame you , Nigerian mentality on display

frosbel:
I might be a Nigerian in 'skin' but I AM very much English in mentality and reaction. !

btw, notice the bolded words above , it's me not someone else !!

Your underlined statement above reveals quite alot about your state of mind. You slyly suggest that having an "English mentality" is innately superior or better than having a "Nigerian mentality" (whatever that means)? How truly deluded and confused you are. That's what comes from copying-and-pasting rather than engaging in disciplined and prayerful Bible study.

Here are some scriptures for you to meditate on 'English man':

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(Heb 11:13-16)

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(1Co 2:16)

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
(Col 3:2-3)

P.S. You can call yourself I, Robot, for all I care, it makes not one difference to Jesus' direct and unambiguous claims to be God.

frosbel:

hurting

Wow !! You lost me with this one, anyway I don't blame you , Nigerian mentality on display

Now this is an interesting reaction! Frosbel seems to have lost his "cool" just because aletheia commented.

And just what exactly is "Nigerian mentality"? The sort of mentality displayed by frosbel who himself is a Nigerian? You keep uttering nonsense. I repeat: Try to address the issues you yourself raised. . .and stop demonstrating your innate insecurity. . .the other day you claimed you were being persecuted on this anonymous online forum. What absurdity.

obadiah777: ARE YOU CATHOLIC ?

Is that all you got from what he wrote?

frosbel:
Here comes the Christian 'snider' if there is such a word.
I tried to read your comment, but got tired at the first line.
Many , in these last days seem to be operating under an anti-Christ spirit.
God help us.
"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible." - Matthew 24:24

But of course, you would get tired at the very first line. Such lazy scholarship is revealed by your penchant for cut-and-paste jobs instead of disciplined and prayerful Bible study.

I can see you are still hurting. . .eeyah sorry. Try to address the issues you yourself raised. Hypocrite. Always quick to call others names. Yet feeling aggrieved when they return the compliment.

Why follow frosbel on his endless circular journeys that end in nowhere. . .there will be nothing said here that hasn't been said on this other thread, for example:

---

frosbel: But how can you use the analogy of one Molecule of water to explain the trinity , surely that is a desperate attempt

And you are desperately blind. One molecule of water? Don't you read? Can't you read. You are as ever the inconsistent hypocrite. Stop whining. If you can attempt to reduce God to Euclidean 3-dimensional arithmetic, I can also attempt to explain using examples from the physical universe.

Here is the answer I gave you. . .

aletheia:
H₂O is one substance and yet to us on occasion is
1) ice (solid),
2) water (liquid - it's most common presentation) and,
3) steam (gas)

To the uneducated, this would appear to be 3 different substances, but we know it to be all H₂O.

Similarly to pagans like you, God would appear to be three, but to His Children, He is One.


God has revealed Himself to man in a progressive fashion, making his attributes known to us. He has been active throughout history as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even right from Genesis 1.1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:1-3)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:14)

Your confusion arises from thinking Spirit is like Flesh. Will you now reject the witness of John.
1. The Word was with God shows that the Word is somehow separate from God.
2. The Word was God shows that the Word is God
Indeed it was a mystery only revealed in Jesus that the Word is God and yet separate and distinct, something clearly shown in the Revelation of Jesus:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Rev 4:2-3) From Ezekiel, we know that what John saw here is "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" as Isaiah also saw. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)
3. The Word was made flesh - God was made flesh.

And so. . .
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6)

Notice the parallelism of the verse above similar to others that occur throughout the scripture:
1. . . there is but one God, the Father cf. one Lord Jesus Christ
2. of whom are all things cf. by whom are all things
3. and we in him cf. and we by him

This answer is clear and succinct. . .and all you can see to whine about is "one Molecule of water".

frosbel:
But you are using all sorts to explain the trinity , no ?

My question is how you can ever call 3 Distinct persons as ONE, even though Jesus called God ONE !

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." - Mark 12:29

3=3 and 1=1

What is there to explain? God the Father, the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit. . . 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 4)

frosbel:
I am non-denominational , so your tag will not stick

I confess that the messiah came in the Flesh,begotten of Father God through his Spirit, while you confess he came in the spirit and not in the flesh, so judge for yourself who is anti-christ.

Non-denominational is a meaningless badge. Clever attempt, using obfuscating words while attempting to deflect attention by falsely accusing me of denying the Incarnation of God in the flesh. And yet for all that you still fail to answer the simple question: So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?
1. Who is this "messiah" you speak of? Why does the name Jesus Christ stick in your craw? Messiah simply means anointed - it is generic. Why not simply say "I confess that Jesus Christ &c"?
2. The gaping deficiency in your "confession" is apparent. Not only do you fail to say Jesus Christ, you also fail to say "Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh. . ."
3. I have repeatedly maintained that Jesus Christ who in Heaven is the Word of God became Flesh and Blood and is God manifest in the flesh. As it is written: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.. So your slander falls apart.

frosbel:
Pharisee you, you are blinded to the truth and leading others into a ditch but trying to make a simple concept of GOD Being ONE into a mathematical complexity, you will not let others enter into the kingdom .

Really? Aren't you the one dancing around with 1+1+1. . .It is you who tries to explain or squeeze God into your formulas. Hypocrite accusing others of what you are guilty of on this thread. What is mathematically complex about this example I gave you:

I am:
1. A Son
2. A Husband
3. A Father

So let's see. . . Me = A Son + A Husband + A Father = One Man. Does Me = A Son + A Husband + A Father = 3 Men. . .?
You see your absurdity in trying to use arithmetic to explain God? You are using the wrong frame of reference. Might as well try to pour the ocean into a cup. Futility.

Obviously your arguments are so much hot air and emotions tied together by scripture verses taken out of context. Advice to you: Go and do a proper and disciplined bible study instead of regurgitation of others' works all over the place.

frosbel:
You said he was a spirit as the last Adam, while the first Adam was a MAN.

See. An example illustration of your poor and ill-disciplined bible study habits. Now read this: 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Cor 15). What do these words 'the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.' tell you? Are these aletheia's words or are these from the bible?

frosbel:
So how many spirits do we now have according to you

3 , right ? plus the Father and Son making it 5 gods you believe in .

You are the one obsessed with 3 like your friend Sweetnecta. There is Only One. As I showed you much earlier:

So says, Frosbel, the Muslim wannabe.

H₂O is one substance and yet to us on occasion is
1) ice (solid),
2) water (liquid - it's most common presentation) and,
3) steam (gas)

To the uneducated, this would appear to be 3 different substances, but we know it to be all H₂O.

Similarly to pagans like you, God would appear to be three, but to His Children, He is One.


God has revealed Himself to man in a progressive fashion, making his attributes known to us. He has been active throughout history as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even right from Genesis 1.1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:1-3)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:14)

Your confusion arises from thinking Spirit is like Flesh. Will you now reject the witness of John.
1. The Word was with God shows that the Word is somehow separate from God.
2. The Word was God shows that the Word is God
Indeed it was a mystery only revealed in Jesus that the Word is God and yet separate and distinct, something clearly shown in the Revelation of Jesus:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Rev 4:2-3) From Ezekiel, we know that what John saw here is "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" as Isaiah also saw. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)
3. The Word was made flesh - God was made flesh.

And so. . .
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6)

Notice the parallelism of the verse above similar to others that occur throughout the scripture:
1. . . there is but one God, the Father cf. one Lord Jesus Christ
2. of whom are all things cf. by whom are all things
3. and we in him cf. and we by him

Synonymous parallelism. A line strengthens, develop, reinforces or repeat the line before it.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;
knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth;
and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (KJV)

Isaiah 44:22a

I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,

your sins like the morning mist.(NIV)

Since you like counting, notice that Rev 5:6 says. . .seven Spirits of God. You see that number seven and have no difficulty accepting that God is One. Be consistent. Had the number seven to your supposed and imaginary pantheon.

frosbel:
The Spirit of God is GOD , his presence in the world and filling of the universe, not seperate from him, how on earth can you separate your spirit from your body and call it a different being ?

So you agree that the Holy Spirit is God. . .isn't that what "Trinitarians" have been saying all along. Confused frosbel!

frosbel:
So what did Jesus Christ exist as prior to coming to earth

Already shown you that in Heaven, Jesus is the Word of God. He was and is the Word of God pre-Incarnation and post-resurrection.

frosbel:
If our Lord overshadowed Mary with the Spirit and Christ was Spirit are we not talking of 2 spirits here ?

Be consistent. . .add the seven Spirits of God in Rev 5:6 too.

frosbel: Who is the beginning and end of God's creation , the Alpha and Omega, the very Word of GOD.

And Who is God as shown by. . . 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Rev 21)

He who says I am Alpha and Omega says I will be his God, showing He is God. Throughout the book of Revelation we see Jesus saying this: I am Alpha and Omega.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Rev 1)

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1)

frosbel:
This is the KJV cult translation, the correct translation as all other bibles state from the more reliable manuscripts is :

"6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son." - 1 John 5:6-9

What makes the other manuscripts "more reliable"? 1 John 5:7 (Johannine Comma) is both internally and externally consistent with the rest of the scriptures. . .
1. While the Greek textual evidence is weak, the Latin textual evidence for the Comma is extremely strong. It is in the vast majority of the Old Latin manuscripts
2. Although not found in most Greek manuscripts, the Johannine Comma is found in several. It is contained in 629 (fourteenth century), 61 (sixteenth century), 918 (sixteenth century), 2473 (seventeenth century), and 2318 (eighteenth century). It is also in the margins of 221 (tenth century), 635 (eleventh century), 88 (twelveth century), 429 (fourteenth century), and 636 (fifteenth century). There are about five hundred existing manuscripts of 1 John chapter five that do not contain the Comma.
3. It is clear that the reading found in the Textus Receptus is the minority reading with later textual support from the Greek witnesses. Nevertheless, being a minority reading does not eliminate it as genuine.
4. Internal Evidence: The structure of the Comma is certainly Johannine in style. John is noted for referring to Christ as "the Word." If 1 John 5:7 were an interpretation of verse eight, as some have suggested, than we would expect the verse to use "Son" instead of "Word." However, the verse uses the Greek word logos, which is uniquely in the style of John and provides evidence of its genuineness. Also, we find John drawing parallels between the Trinity and what they testify (1 John 4:13-14). Therefore, it comes as no surprise to find a parallel of witnesses containing groups of three, one heavenly and one earthly.
5. The strongest evidence, however, is found in the Greek text itself. Looking at 1 John 5:8, there are three nouns which, in Greek, stand in the neuter (Spirit, water, and blood). However, they are followed by a participle that is masculine. The Greek phrase here is oi marturountes (who bare witness). Those who know the Greek language understand this to be poor grammar if left to stand on its own. Even more noticeably, verse six has the same participle but stands in the neuter (Gk.: to marturoun). Why are three neuter nouns supported with a masculine participle? The answer is found if we include verse seven. There we have two masculine nouns (Father and Son) followed by a neuter noun (Spirit). The verse also has the Greek masculine participle oi marturountes. With this clause introducing verse eight, it is very proper for the participle in verse eight to be masculine, because of the masculine nouns in verse seven. But if verse seven were not there it would become improper Greek grammar.

frosbel: The SON came to reveal the father and he did that 1000% very well. He is the express IMAGE ( not PERSON ) of GOD.

And Jesus Christ is God.

---

At the end of the day all that frosbel advances for his thesis are emotional arguments to support his own conception of God and Jesus Christ. Nothing new there.

na2day!:




Another perpetual motion device, eh?

The Holy Grail!

My problem with such news articles is that they are short on details. . .so one can not judge if indeed the inventor has produced a perpetual motion device.

This portion of the article. . .

he came up with a new branch of physics known as Emagnetodynamics, the branch of physics that studies the conversion of the energy of static magnetic fields into work.

. . .seems to suggest something along the lines of scalar electromagnetics - a field that has spawned a whole underground movement that claims to be carrying on the work of Nikola Tesla.

@OP. . .with all due respect the verses you highlighted above are not specific prophecies of the United States or Great Britain. There are some prophecies which pertain to these nations. . .but these do not single them out of the gentile nations. Some believe Russia to be Magog, Meshech and Tubal.

The lion with eagle's wings is Babylon, the bear is Persia, the leopard is Greece. . .

Please do not add to God's words.

frosbel:
I have done much more study that you may care to imagine.

Please show me scriptural proof that he was under the altar, don't just say it, show it.

No. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

frosbel:

allegorical , also can you explain this :

"The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground" - Genesis 4:10

Was Abel under the altar as well ?

Abel was under the altar as well and there is scriptural proof for that - but I doubt if one such as you can find it. . .since you only excel at copy and paste recycling of articles instead of doing a diligent and disciplined Bible study.

frosbel:

Can you kindly show me in the bible where it says we will go to heaven when we die !

. . .seeking to single-handedly rewrite the Bible. . .so where were these ones talked about here? On earth?
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (Rev 6)

frosbel:
I deviate slightly here. I believe in the divinity of Christ but only as far as he was anointed by the Spirit of GOD.

Actually, you deviate significantly as to be considered to have left the road completely. So Jesus Christ is divine "only as far as he was anointed by the Spirit of GOD."
You have been fully unmasked here. . .for the light of the following verses clearly reveals your error.
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (Phil 2)

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom 9)

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

And we shouldn't forget: "the Word was God. . .And the Word was made flesh"

We have already been warned about the likes of you:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col 2)

frosbel:
God was in Christ not Christ in GOD.

More inconsistent waffling. Didn't you write earlier that the Word (Christ) was in God. . .when you were going on about the meaaning of the Greek word pros.

frosbel: In fact, the word “with” in John 1.1 is the word pros, which most often translated “to” or “toward.” So the word was toward God or with God or within God—it was close to his heart.

Such inconsistent wobbling all over the place is what comes of trying to defend a lie. Truth is simple and constant. And Jesus Himself declares that God the Father is in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is in God the Father:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (John 14)
Oh yes, come and tell us now that the word "in" here means something else.

frosbel:
Consider the following scripture.

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." - Galatians 2:20

Here we see that we live, yet not us but Christ who lives in us , only as far as we yield to him into obedience.

Obviously used out of context. . .since we have established that God the Father is in Jesus Christ. . .shall we say then "that the Father lives, yet not the Father but Christ who lives in the Father , only as far as the Father yields to him into obedience."

You can see how easy it is to show the absurdity of your posts because they are based on a selective rendering of scriptures.

frosbel:
God almighty through his Spirit was able to fully dwell in Christ and anoint him because our meek, loving saviour fully and totally yielded to the father making him ONE with the father in purpose and salvation.

The Word of God (manifested in the flesh on earth as Jesus Christ) was ONE with the Father in purpose from eternity, even before the foundation of the world.

frosbel: But how can you use the analogy of one Molecule of water to explain the trinity , surely that is a desperate attempt

And you are desperately blind. One molecule of water? Don't you read? Can't you read. You are as ever the inconsistent hypocrite. Stop whining. If you can attempt to reduce God to Euclidean 3-dimensional arithmetic, I can also attempt to explain using examples from the physical universe.

Here is the answer I gave you. . .

aletheia:
H₂O is one substance and yet to us on occasion is
1) ice (solid),
2) water (liquid - it's most common presentation) and,
3) steam (gas)

To the uneducated, this would appear to be 3 different substances, but we know it to be all H₂O.

Similarly to pagans like you, God would appear to be three, but to His Children, He is One.


God has revealed Himself to man in a progressive fashion, making his attributes known to us. He has been active throughout history as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even right from Genesis 1.1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:1-3)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:14)

Your confusion arises from thinking Spirit is like Flesh. Will you now reject the witness of John.
1. The Word was with God shows that the Word is somehow separate from God.
2. The Word was God shows that the Word is God
Indeed it was a mystery only revealed in Jesus that the Word is God and yet separate and distinct, something clearly shown in the Revelation of Jesus:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Rev 4:2-3) From Ezekiel, we know that what John saw here is "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" as Isaiah also saw. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)
3. The Word was made flesh - God was made flesh.

And so. . .
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6)

Notice the parallelism of the verse above similar to others that occur throughout the scripture:
1. . . there is but one God, the Father cf. one Lord Jesus Christ
2. of whom are all things cf. by whom are all things
3. and we in him cf. and we by him

This answer is clear and succinct. . .and all you can see to whine about is "one Molecule of water".

frosbel:
But you are using all sorts to explain the trinity , no ?

My question is how you can ever call 3 Distinct persons as ONE, even though Jesus called God ONE !

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." - Mark 12:29

3=3 and 1=1

What is there to explain? God the Father, the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit. . . 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 4)

frosbel:
I am non-denominational , so your tag will not stick

I confess that the messiah came in the Flesh,begotten of Father God through his Spirit, while you confess he came in the spirit and not in the flesh, so judge for yourself who is anti-christ.

Non-denominational is a meaningless badge. Clever attempt, using obfuscating words while attempting to deflect attention by falsely accusing me of denying the Incarnation of God in the flesh. And yet for all that you still fail to answer the simple question: So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?
1. Who is this "messiah" you speak of? Why does the name Jesus Christ stick in your craw? Messiah simply means anointed - it is generic. Why not simply say "I confess that Jesus Christ &c"?
2. The gaping deficiency in your "confession" is apparent. Not only do you fail to say Jesus Christ, you also fail to say "Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh. . ."
3. I have repeatedly maintained that Jesus Christ who in Heaven is the Word of God became Flesh and Blood and is God manifest in the flesh. As it is written: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.. So your slander falls apart.

frosbel:
Pharisee you, you are blinded to the truth and leading others into a ditch but trying to make a simple concept of GOD Being ONE into a mathematical complexity, you will not let others enter into the kingdom .

Really? Aren't you the one dancing around with 1+1+1. . .It is you who tries to explain or squeeze God into your formulas. Hypocrite accusing others of what you are guilty of on this thread. What is mathematically complex about this example I gave you:

I am:
1. A Son
2. A Husband
3. A Father

So let's see. . . Me = A Son + A Husband + A Father = One Man. Does Me = A Son + A Husband + A Father = 3 Men. . .?
You see your absurdity in trying to use arithmetic to explain God? You are using the wrong frame of reference. Might as well try to pour the ocean into a cup. Futility.

Obviously your arguments are so much hot air and emotions tied together by scripture verses taken out of context. Advice to you: Go and do a proper and disciplined bible study instead of regurgitation of others' works all over the place.

frosbel:
You said he was a spirit as the last Adam, while the first Adam was a MAN.

See. An example illustration your poor and ill-disciplined bible study habits. Now read this: 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Cor 15). What do these words 'the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.' tell you? Are these aletheia's words or are these from the bible?

frosbel:
So how many spirits do we now have according to you

3 , right ? plus the Father and Son making it 5 gods you believe in .

You are the one obsessed with 3 like your friend Sweetnecta. There is Only One. As I showed you much earlier:

So says, Frosbel, the Muslim wannabe.

H₂O is one substance and yet to us on occasion is
1) ice (solid),
2) water (liquid - it's most common presentation) and,
3) steam (gas)

To the uneducated, this would appear to be 3 different substances, but we know it to be all H₂O.

Similarly to pagans like you, God would appear to be three, but to His Children, He is One.


God has revealed Himself to man in a progressive fashion, making his attributes known to us. He has been active throughout history as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even right from Genesis 1.1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:1-3)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:14)

Your confusion arises from thinking Spirit is like Flesh. Will you now reject the witness of John.
1. The Word was with God shows that the Word is somehow separate from God.
2. The Word was God shows that the Word is God
Indeed it was a mystery only revealed in Jesus that the Word is God and yet separate and distinct, something clearly shown in the Revelation of Jesus:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Rev 4:2-3) From Ezekiel, we know that what John saw here is "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" as Isaiah also saw. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)
3. The Word was made flesh - God was made flesh.

And so. . .
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6)

Notice the parallelism of the verse above similar to others that occur throughout the scripture:
1. . . there is but one God, the Father cf. one Lord Jesus Christ
2. of whom are all things cf. by whom are all things
3. and we in him cf. and we by him

Synonymous parallelism. A line strengthens, develop, reinforces or repeat the line before it.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;
knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth;
and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (KJV)

Isaiah 44:22a

I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,

your sins like the morning mist.(NIV)

Since you like counting, notice that Rev 5:6 says. . .seven Spirits of God. You see that number seven and have no difficulty accepting that God is One. Be consistent. Had the number seven to your supposed and imaginary pantheon.

frosbel:
The Spirit of God is GOD , his presence in the world and filling of the universe, not seperate from him, how on earth can you separate your spirit from your body and call it a different being ?

So you agree that the Holy Spirit is God. . .isn't that what "Trinitarians" have been saying all along. Confused frosbel!

frosbel:
So what did Jesus Christ exist as prior to coming to earth

Already shown you that in Heaven, Jesus is the Word of God. He was and is the Word of God pre-Incarnation and post-resurrection.

frosbel:
If our Lord overshadowed Mary with the Spirit and Christ was Spirit are we not talking of 2 spirits here ?

Be consistent. . .add the seven Spirits of God in Rev 5:6 too.

frosbel: Who is the beginning and end of God's creation , the Alpha and Omega, the very Word of GOD.

And Who is God as shown by. . . 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Rev 21)

He who says I am Alpha and Omega says I will be his God, showing He is God. Throughout the book of Revelation we see Jesus saying this: I am Alpha and Omega.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Rev 1)

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1)

frosbel:
This is the KJV cult translation, the correct translation as all other bibles state from the more reliable manuscripts is :

"6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son." - 1 John 5:6-9

What makes the other manuscripts "more reliable"? 1 John 5:7 (Johannine Comma) is both internally and externally consistent with the rest of the scriptures. . .
1. While the Greek textual evidence is weak, the Latin textual evidence for the Comma is extremely strong. It is in the vast majority of the Old Latin manuscripts
2. Although not found in most Greek manuscripts, the Johannine Comma is found in several. It is contained in 629 (fourteenth century), 61 (sixteenth century), 918 (sixteenth century), 2473 (seventeenth century), and 2318 (eighteenth century). It is also in the margins of 221 (tenth century), 635 (eleventh century), 88 (twelveth century), 429 (fourteenth century), and 636 (fifteenth century). There are about five hundred existing manuscripts of 1 John chapter five that do not contain the Comma.
3. It is clear that the reading found in the Textus Receptus is the minority reading with later textual support from the Greek witnesses. Nevertheless, being a minority reading does not eliminate it as genuine.
4. Internal Evidence: The structure of the Comma is certainly Johannine in style. John is noted for referring to Christ as "the Word." If 1 John 5:7 were an interpretation of verse eight, as some have suggested, than we would expect the verse to use "Son" instead of "Word." However, the verse uses the Greek word logos, which is uniquely in the style of John and provides evidence of its genuineness. Also, we find John drawing parallels between the Trinity and what they testify (1 John 4:13-14). Therefore, it comes as no surprise to find a parallel of witnesses containing groups of three, one heavenly and one earthly.
5. The strongest evidence, however, is found in the Greek text itself. Looking at 1 John 5:8, there are three nouns which, in Greek, stand in the neuter (Spirit, water, and blood). However, they are followed by a participle that is masculine. The Greek phrase here is oi marturountes (who bare witness). Those who know the Greek language understand this to be poor grammar if left to stand on its own. Even more noticeably, verse six has the same participle but stands in the neuter (Gk.: to marturoun). Why are three neuter nouns supported with a masculine participle? The answer is found if we include verse seven. There we have two masculine nouns (Father and Son) followed by a neuter noun (Spirit). The verse also has the Greek masculine participle oi marturountes. With this clause introducing verse eight, it is very proper for the participle in verse eight to be masculine, because of the masculine nouns in verse seven. But if verse seven were not there it would become improper Greek grammar.

frosbel: The SON came to reveal the father and he did that 1000% very well. He is the express IMAGE ( not PERSON ) of GOD.

And Jesus Christ is God.

frosbel:
And you have not responded to my questions.

Keep holding on to catholic doctrines.

Tell me.

Me = 1
Wife = 1
Son = 1

Me + Wife + Son = 1 , no ?

I already answered you using the example of H₂O. And I also told you God is not a vector or scalar in Euclidean space that can be reduced to your arithmetic. God is a Spirit. The spirit can not be reduced to physical equations. Keep grasping at straws.

I am:
1. A Son
2. A Husband
3. A Father

So let's see. . . Me = A Son + A Husband + A Father = One Man. Does Me = A Son + A Husband + A Father = 3 Men. . .?
You see your absurdity in trying to use arithmetic to explain God? You are using the wrong frame of reference. Might as well try to pour the ocean into a cup. Futility.

You refusal to answer the simple question:

So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

. . .clearly identifies you for what you are. Another cult wannabe with the spirit of antichrist. The Biblical criterion is clear and unambiguous:
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (John 4)

It is good that this conversation took place so that you may be unmasked for what you really are, a deceiver and one who would lead the brethren astray with your polemics.

You go on and on about Jesus being a man. Who here has denied that. . .as I pointed out even unbelievers know that.

aletheia:
Like you, Muslims, Buddhists, secularists, atheists know that Jesus is/was a Man. Do you really think that is what is in contention here?

The issues being contended on this thread are:
#1. The Holy Spirit is God. . .and not an influence, impulse or force.
Seeing as this initial premise could not be sustained in the face of overwhelming scripture evidence that shows the Holy Spirit as a distinct Person with attributes pertaining to personhood. . .you shifted tack to raise ---
#2. The pre-Incarnate Word of God was but an idea, a plan in the mind (heart) of God &c.
That too has been shown to be false. . .for the scriptures are plain that the Word is God and Jesus is the Word made flesh (i.e. God became a man). The Word of God is the name borne in Heaven by the Heavenly Man Jesus.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

So to summarize:
The Almighty has revealed Himself to us as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy GhostMatthew 28)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5)

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 John 5)

Marantha

truthislight:
why are you not showing where the bible called the holy spirit a "God" and not implying it is?

That Isaiah 9:6 that you quoted cant you see how explicit it is in calling Jesus God?

If the holy spirit is a God dont you think that The bible will have explicitly say so?

Can God have forgotten?

So God forgot to call the holy spirit God and needed you Guys to help him out?

So you agree that Jesus is God. Good. Now consider these:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
What do you understand by this verse? What does "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" mean?

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4 ¶So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.(Acts 13)

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (Acts 5)

So let's see. . .the Holy Spirit speaks, refers to Himself as I, sends out people and can be lied to. Can an impersonal influence do all these or have personal attributes as these?

Oh and by the way, you agree that it is God and not men who are blasphemed against, wouldn't you?
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matthew 12)

frosbel:
So Jesus Christ was not a MAN , even though he is referred to all over the bible as , Son of MAN, the Man Jesus, Last Adam , the Man Jesus Christ etc.

Like you, Muslims, Buddhists, secularists, atheists know that Jesus is/was a Man. Do you really think that is what is in contention here?

Where they baulk like you is in this: Jesus is God made flesh and blood. You have written much on this thread and yet gone to great lengths to avoid giving a direct answer to this direct question.

So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

Now the answer to this question does not require an essay. Kindly move the conversation on by providing us an answer.

@frosbel:
How you twist and turn and utterly fail to answer this question. . .

So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

frosbel:
Surely you can debate without resorting to snides

You set the tone with your propensity to attach labels (read your posts again). I 'll dial it down. Hope you do likewise.

frosbel:
In other words ADAM or MAN was originally intended to fully glow with the GLORY of GOD but he failed by disobedience.

With the last ADAM, Christ Jesus, his full and totally obedience meant that GOD was able to fully express his GLORY once again through MAN .

"The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." - John 8:29

Ephesians 1:11&12 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be[u] for the praise of his glory.[/u]"

Very saccharine words. . .but then poison is often sweet. What you wrote above is easily dismissed. The nature of the First Adam is different from the Second and Last Adam. The First is a Man, the Second is a Spirit.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(1Co 15:45-49)

frosbel:
You failed to note the following phrase " sat down on the right hand of the Majesty ".

Who is the Majesty if not GOD the Father.

And who is the distinct person that sat down at the right hand of the Majesty? Isn't it written as well But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Heb 1:

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Heb 1:13)

frosbel:
. . .this same Word brought Christ into being for the salvation of mankind.

So Christ has a beginning, according to you. I see.

frosbel:

You got nothing to say about pros?

frosbel:
Christ was the “logos,”. . .

My. . .aren't you the confused one. Christ was the Logos, you say and yet at the same time you say. . .

frosbel:
. . .this same Word[Logos] brought Christ into being. . .

So by your words, Christ who was the Logos brought Christ into being?

frosbel:
When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ.

This is false. . .Scripture declares it so. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Joh 1:18)
The fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son renders your hypothesis null and void.

frosbel:
Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth, and they assert that this proves he had access to the mind and memory of his “God nature.” However, if, as a man, Jesus “remembered” being in glory with the Father before the world began, then he would have known he was God in every sense. He would not have thought of himself as a “man” at all. If he knew he was God, he would not and could not have been “tempted in every way just as we are” because nothing he encountered would have been a “real” temptation to him. He would have had no fear and no thought of failure. There is no real sense in which Scripture could actually say he was “made like his brothers in every way” (Heb. 2:17) because he would not have been like us at all. Furthermore, Scripture says that Jesus “grew” in knowledge and wisdom. That would not really be true if Christ had access to some type of God-nature with infinite knowledge and wisdom.

The bolded part is the straw man argument on which you build the rest of the paragraph. it is untrue, no one as far as I know makes such assertions. On the contrary, we have always asserted that Jesus Christ emptied Himself of everything pertaining to His glory. . .But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Php 2:7). Moreover, you discount the fact that Jesus had the Spirit without measure. . .He didn't need to "remember being in glory with the Father before the world began", the Holy Spirit would remind him. You also discount this significant event: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

frosbel:
We do not have a God-nature to help us when we are tempted or are in trouble or lack knowledge or wisdom.

One must wonder if indeed a Christian wrote this. We have the Holy Spirit, paracletos, to help us. . .
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (Joh 1:12)

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2Pe 1:4)

frosbel:
This document was taken from Appendix A of One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith (copyright 2003) by Christian Educational Services, a division of Spirit & Truth Fellowship International.

This document is filled with errors.

(Deu 14:26) And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


Now this will set the cat among the pigeons.

@frosbel:
I said:

Is this the crutch you lean on? The Sadducees were a minority, you know. . .so I guess by your logic, they were "safe"?

To which you respond. ..

frosbel:
Yes , they were a minority among a majority of the Pharisees like you

It is interesting to note that you consider that the Sadducees were "safe" just because they were a minority. That gives me an insight into your mindset. . .seeing that the Sadducees were in even more flagrant error than the Pharisees. . .holding only to the Pentateuch and denying the Resurrection. By and by your purpose is clearer. . .notice how you 've avoided answering this:

So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

frosbel:
. . .The word of God is never in any one of the 42 books of the Bible preceding this verse referred to as a person distinct from the Father.

Because it was a Mystery, hinted at but only revealed in full at the Incarnation. . .And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

frosbel:
The word is God’s utterance, his plan, his creative power, or his message given to the prophets. John 1.1 begins with the same words as Genesis 1.1. In the Genesis account God speaks and creation happens; in John it says the word was in the beginning with God (see also Psalm 33.6, 9).

1. A "word" is that by which we communicate our will; by which we convey our thoughts; or by which we issue commands the medium of communication with others. The Son of God may be called "the Word," because he is the medium by which God promulgates His will and issues His commandments.
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high (Hebrews 1)

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14)

2. Whatever is meant by the term "Word," it is clear that it had an existence before "creation." It is not, then, a "creature" or created being, and must be, therefore, uncreated and eternal. There is only one Being that is uncreated, and Jesus must be therefore divine.

frosbel:
God’s word was with him.This expression may sound strange to us, but it is found in other verses as well where something is “with” them but it is really “within” them (Job 10.13; 23.13-14; Proverbs 8.22, 30). In fact, the word “with” in John 1.1 is the word pros, which most often translated “to” or “toward.” So the word was toward God or with God or within God—it was close to his heart.

You are just playing around with words. "Within" as in a thought? Shades of gnosticism here. Really? Why are there no NT verses supporting this "within" conjecture of yours? The OT was written in Hebrew + Aramaic, while the NT is written in Greek. Please show us where the word Greek pros is translated "within" in sense in which you use it in John 1:1?
Now the Greek word pros occurs 703 times in the Greek NT. . .and only once in Mark 14:4, did I see it translated as 'within'. Common sense would tell us that the more common denotation of the word is the one we would use when there's any doubt except when context demands otherwise and nothing in John 1:1 suggests "within". 1 out 703? Really?

frosbel:
The last part of John 1.1 reads, “and the word was God.” The word belongs to the sphere of God; because he is divine, his word is divine. It is not a separate being from God any more than my word is a distinct being from me, yet in a metaphoric sense my word is me because it expresses who I am. Finally in John 1.14 the word of God, his plan for salvation, his will for humanity, his ultimate revealed purpose, becomes a living breathing human being in Jesus of Nazareth.

So Jesus pre-Incarnation was metaphorical? These scriptures suggest otherwise:
(Joh 17:5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

frosbel:
All this just to explain what is supposed to be a single concept.
You are truly going round in circles.

You are just grasping at straws. Counter the Bible verses. . .if you can. What I wrote is more lucid than the video you posted or anything you else 've written on this thread so far. . .all of which has been shown to be false from the scriptures.

You actually have had nothing to say except regurgitate others' emotional arguments without actually taking time to study the Bible for yourself. . .which is why you have avoided answering every single question I have asked you.

aletheia: So Frosbel tell us how an Influence has a Mind, and a Will, and Speaks?

aletheia: So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

No doubt seeking to answer those questions will cause you much mental stress as your state of cognitive dissonance becomes more evident. Even Sweetnecta understands you better than you do yourself hence he invites you to complete your descent by embracing Islam:

Sweetnecta: I am glad that Frosbel finally admitted that neither Jesus nor Holy Spirit is God.

Now you need to quit christianity altogether because the Bible, through the confusion maker magician saint Paul stated Jesus and Holy Spirit are gods in addition to Ellah The God of Jesus.

You cannot say you are a monotheist as a christian with what we find in the Bible.

Your best bet is Islam being the true monpteist, and the only radical and clearly worldwide Universal monotheists are the muslims; Islam is unlike the tribal monotheistic judaism or pseudo monotheistic christianity.

frosbel:
I am in the minority which means I am safe

Is this the crutch you lean on? The Sadducees were a minority, you know. . .so I guess by your logic, they were "safe"?

Your video there makes such a big to do about houtos and autos and at 5:23 makes this statement: "Absolutely nothing in the Greek indicates a person is in view", whereas much earlier it claims that both words may be used for both a person and an inanimate object. Seems the author is confused. . .and it is clear that he starts from a pre-determined conclusion and seeks to panel beat the scriptures to suit his own desires. . .else how do we explain his glaring silence on these words: the Word was God.
Logically if the Word was God, it would indicate that Word is indeed a person and is the person kept in view by houtos and autos. The video ignores these words the Word was God. because it demolishes its premise.

Moreover, the video attempts to obfuscate by claiming it doesn't say:
In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.
And why should the scriptures use Jesus in John 1:1 - 3, when clearly it is talking about the pre-Incarnate Word of God. Jesus is the name He bears on earth. . .as clearly shown in Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. He has other names in Heaven such as the Word!
Indeed John 1 shows how the Word who was at the beginning, the Word who was with God, the Word who was God became flesh. . .and so from verse 17 on we see but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The unity of the scriptures is plain to behold and so in Revelation 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

. . .and his name is called The Word of God.

QED

Well, that doesn't sound like an inanimate, impersonal, spoken word to me.

Here is a question for you, Frosbel (though, I notice, you haven't answered a single one I asked you - but you expect others to answer your questions).

If the Word in John 1:1 is the impersonal and spoken word as your video claims and you agree, explain these words of Jesus:
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

frosbel: Trinitarians let us do some maths. . .
Can you please help me here or am I missing something.

You have obviously missed something. God is not a vector or scalar in Euclidean space that is subject to your arithmetic. God is a Spirit.

Ihedinobi:

No, sir, I'm not saying that. On that matter, you and I are of the same persuasion.

I am only requesting a scientific discussion of the age of the earth using information from the Bible and established findings in the scientific community with you and Mr Anony. I hope that you can indulge me, sir.

OK.

Sweetnecta:
@Aletheia, old chap, how are you and the family?

We are fine. And you?

Ihedinobi: Aletheia, I haven't seen evidence on goshen360's thread about the gap theory that you have continued to follow it, that's why I'm informing you here that I intend to start a thread on the Age of the Earth, probably in the science section. I'd love to discuss it some more with you and Mr Anony. Information from the Bible and scientific findings will be very welcome. I sincerely hope that you will oblige me when I call upon you.

Are you saying that I am an adherent of the Gap theory? Perhaps you need to read my post again on that thread. Thanks.

frosbel:
1. God said he is not a man that he should LIE. How did God himself then become a MAN

2. James clearly said that God cannot be tempted , yet Jesus was tempted

3. God cannot die, but Jesus died and God raised him from the dead

4. Jesus emphatically said that God is greater then Him, what exactly does this mean ?

Your four questions are summed up by the bolded portion. This I guess is the source of your angst. But I 'd already identified that much earlier on this thread when I said:

aletheia: Next will come the denial of the hypostasis of Jesus. . .the seeds of which are already evident in some of your posts on this thread

frosbel:
1. God said he is not a man that he should LIE. How did God himself then become a MAN

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.(Joh 1:14)

What is meant by the Word was made flesh; if not that God Himself became a MAN. Are you a deceiver or just confused?
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1Jn 4:2-3)

So my question to you Frosbel is this: Is Jesus Christ God come in the flesh or not?

frosbel:
2. James clearly said that God cannot be tempted , yet Jesus was tempted

Complete the quotation, and also indicate the purpose for his being tempted. . .stop wrenching verses out of context.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Heb 2:14-18)

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
(Heb 4:15)

That Jesus was tempted? Is that your argument against the Incarnation of the Word who was God? Didn't you see the scriptures above. God willingly and deliberately became flesh in order to save the children who are partakers of flesh and blood. Jesus allowed himself to be tempted so that in all things he will be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest, knowing what it is to be tempted and yet being without sin so that he is able to reconcile the brethren to God.

frosbel:
3. God cannot die, but Jesus died and God raised him from the dead

Why is that difficult for you to understand. Flesh and blood dies. The Man Jesus died. . .and rose. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Jesus laid down His life of his volition and took it up again! No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (Joh 10:18)

frosbel:
4. Jesus emphatically said that God is greater then Him, what exactly does this mean ?

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Php 2:6-11)

What do you understand by the underlined words above?

It was at a certain point in Time that Jesus said this. Was it not while he was as yet on earth when he had emptied himself of his Heavenly Glory, laying it aside for the time while he was on earth. He point he clearly makes here. . .And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (Joh 17:5)

Now He is risen and ascended on high. What does he say now?
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1Ti 3:16)

frosbel:
You are a Polytheist not a Monotheist.

You believe in 3 GODs not ONE.

So says, Frosbel, the Muslim wannabe.

H₂O is one substance and yet to us on occasion is
1) ice (solid),
2) water (liquid - it's most common presentation) and,
3) steam (gas)

To the uneducated, this would appear to be 3 different substances, but we know it to be all H₂O.

Similarly to pagans like you, God would appear to be three, but to His Children, He is One.


God has revealed Himself to man in a progressive fashion, making his attributes known to us. He has been active throughout history as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit even right from Genesis 1.1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:1-3)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:1)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Joh 1:14)

Your confusion arises from thinking Spirit is like Flesh. Will you now reject the witness of John.
1. The Word was with God shows that the Word is somehow separate from God.
2. The Word was God shows that the Word is God
Indeed it was a mystery only revealed in Jesus that the Word is God and yet separate and distinct, something clearly shown in the Revelation of Jesus:
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. (Rev 4:2-3) From Ezekiel, we know that what John saw here is "the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" as Isaiah also saw. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Rev 5:6)
3. The Word was made flesh - God was made flesh.

And so. . .
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1Co 8:6)

Notice the parallelism of the verse above similar to others that occur throughout the scripture:
1. . . there is but one God, the Father cf. one Lord Jesus Christ
2. of whom are all things cf. by whom are all things
3. and we in him cf. and we by him

Synonymous parallelism. A line strengthens, develop, reinforces or repeat the line before it.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;
knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth;
and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (KJV)

Isaiah 44:22a

I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,

your sins like the morning mist.(NIV)