Fr0sbel:
God is Spirit. . .

God is Spirit. . .you have been declaiming throughout this thread and yet fail to grasp the essential truth that God is Spirit therefore the Holy Spirit is God.

Fr0sbel:
So tell me High Priest aletheia , you say GOD is ONE.

Father God = 1
Jesus Christ = 1
Holy Spirit = 1

Pope Frosbel. Is that your attempt to reduce your confusion to arithmetic of human derivation and logic?
I know for sure this:
The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God. Simple. The scriptures are unequivocally clear on this. . .even the OT is unambiguous about it:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isa 9:6)

Apropos the topic:

The Holy Spirit is a Person.

A person has the following characteristics:
1. A mind - able to think and act upon their thinking
2. Their own will - self identity
3. Emotions - able to act cognitively

The Holy Spirit is identified as a Person by John, using in the Greek the masculine ekeinos in Jn.16:13. The Holy Spirit is presented as a personal being with a self-identity. He the Holy Spirit says "Separate Barnabas and Saul to me;" He also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2.

As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (Act 13:2)

But of course Frosbel's agenda of deception would not permit him to see that. Frosbel's Holy Spirit is not God, but a force like in Buddhism, an influence.

frosbel: God's Spirit is GOD's influence, Power in the universe / world.

The Holy Spirit comes alongside the believer, to do what Jesus did when he was here physically, but mainly from the inside of us. He is called the comforter, this would be a hard thing to do if the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force. The helper paracletos is used for the Spirit in the NT. by Jesus. Paracletos is used in Greek almost always of persons. Here the Lord calls him our helper, one that comes alongside. Even with the other titles attributed to him this still does not change who he is behind those titles.

He (the Spirit) says "separate Barnabas and Saul to me" he also is identified as "I" in Acts 13:2. When we speak of person it does not necessitate form but personality and identity.

Looking at the attributes of the Spirit we find no difference in His nature, function and communion with the believer than with Jesus.
Rom.8:27 He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the spirit is, because he makes intercession for the saints,"

1 Cor.12:11: "But the one and the same spirit works all these things dividing to each one as He wills.

Acts 8.29: The Spirit spoke to Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
Rev 2-3: "Let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches"
Rev 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!"

So Frosbel tell us how an Influence has a Mind, and a Will, and Speaks?

Fr0sbel:
Persecute me for all I care, the truth must have it's way.

Persecute? Paranoia sets in. Your progression is sad to observe and all too predictable. Next will come the denial of the hypostasis of Jesus. . .the seeds of which are already evident in some of your posts on this thread, then a denial of some part of the scriptures as inspired.

Fr0sbel:
Ah okay , so this Spirit is different from God the Spirit.

Perhaps in Frosbel's personal bible version. . .the Holy Spirit is different from God. . .hence his confusion.

Fr0sbel:
You are utterly confused.

Clearly Frosbel is utterly confused as shown in his post below:

Fr0sbel:
So when God said he will pour his Spirit upon all flesh and which was fulfilled from the day of penetecost, whose Spirit was this, another Spirit called the Holy Spirit.

Fr0sbel:
Mate , I do not take lectures from Calvinists, those who believe in the OSAS doctrine ( Once saved always saved ).

Calvinists? How ironic. What a Pharisee and hypocrite your are. You are quick to attach labels to people and yet your displays and temperament is exactly like that of Calvin. . .arrogant, intolerant and convinced that he alone has the right of the matter. You are a true descendant of your father John Calvin.

As Jesus said to some like you Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Fr0sbel:
And by the way can you explain to the audience, the spirit behind Calvin when he ordered the death of Michael Servetus for heresy because he rejected the trinity doctrine.

The same spirit that actuates you Frosbel the spiritual son of Calvin.

Fr0sbel:
Just goes to show the spirit behind your pagan doctrine, not the Spirit of GOD for sure.

. Your true colours. . .exactly what your father Calvin would have used as justification for killing Servetus. Methinks Frosbel doth protest too much. Apparently I hit a little too close to home with these comments:
"A fanatic is a man who consciously over compensates a secret doubt"; and "A fanatic is a man who, when he's lost sight of his purpose, redoubles his effort."
Look here: Go and exorcise your doubts through diligent Bible study and Prayer and stop coming here to lead astray the brethren.

Fr0sbel:
Bye.

Au contraire, monsieur. You and I are far from done. Will be seeing you around.

frosbel:
God's Spirit is GOD's influence, Power in the universe / world.

. . .and thus is the obfuscation laid bare.

Reminds me of these quotes: "A fanatic is a man who consciously over compensates a secret doubt"; and "A fanatic is a man who, when he's lost sight of his purpose, redoubles his effort."

The Holy Spirit is not a "Person" you say. . .and yet He is spoken of in the Scriptures using the masculine personal pronoun rather than the impersonal form:
1. He descended bodily on Jesus at Jordan.
2. He speaks. . .
3. He grieves. . .
4. He teaches. . .
5. He reminds. . .
6. He wills. . .
7 &c

Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
(Act 8:29)
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
(Act 13:2)

As it is written it is not good to have zeal without knowledge. And you do bear a striking similarity to those of whom this was written: For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Now would be a good time for you to calm down, humble yourself and go back to proper study of the word.

nagoma:

Ruptured appendix is an emergency that can actually be treated in nigeria. Where i blame the Villa Doctors is their failure to diagnose appendicitis. Appendicitis is basically a clinical diagnosis that can be done by any NYSC Doctor. Needing no magnetic resonance imaging or similar technology.
Why they failed to make the correct diagnosis , I believe is because the Doctors are also adulators and sychophants like many others in corridors of power.
Food poisoning and Appedicitis have common cardinal early symtoms of nausea, abdominal pain and vomiting. The only way to make a quick differentiation is to UnCloth the patient , lie him /her on his/her back, and examine the abdomen in detail and you will elicit the signs that will lead you away from food poisoning and to appedicitis as a firm diagnosis. These courtier palace doctors were too shy and did not have the professional courage to tell Dame Patience to UnCloth and for them to dip their hands into her (abdomen) stomach. So they continued wrongly treating her for food poisoning on the basis of syptoms alone. Until the inflamed appendix ruptured.
No body will confirm this but I strongly believe that is what led to the crisis - adulations and fake reverence.THere is no sustitute for standards in clinical diagnosis - even when the patient is rich and powerful.

Excellent summation which I believe captures the essence of what usually transpires in such circles.

Mr_Anony:
@debosky, I think we can rightfully make the connection. If it was indeed the devil that deceived Eve in the garden, then we can be sure that the devil fell before Eve or at least before the temptation.

Second thing we can be sure of is that the devil had not fallen at the point of the creation of man, else God would not have seen the creation as good since the fall of lucifer would have sullied it.

Therefore, we know that lucifer must have fallen sometime between the end of creation and the temptation in the garden of Eden.

Exactly.

debosky: . . .others may say it had to have happened before the creation of Adam because the bible doesn't record the creation of angels, the elders, etc. within the 6 day creation account, which is focused on the 'physical' creation as it were, not principalities, dominions, etc.

The Bible is actually quite unambiguously categorical about this:
Exodus 20:11 says, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

"All that is in them (the heavens and the earth, the sea etc)" is the Universal Set of all created beings i.e. angels, the elders, principalities, dominions, etc.

debosky: @ alethia
Without being told when this fall occurred, I don't see how you can make such a categorical statement.

Because the account in Genesis is logical, consistent and ordered. . .

1. If Satan sinned and fell before Adam was created. . .
2. That would mean that Creation was already marred and blighted since sin would then be already present on day six
3. And God would not have said this: "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."
4. But since at the end of the sixth day, God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good., we know at least that at the time Adam was created, there was no sin or imperfection present in creation.

I think the difference in our positions is in what we think the phrase "every thing that he had made" refers to. I believe this refers to the heavens and the earth and all that is in them because the verse immediately following says: "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."
All the host of them is synonymous for heavenly host. . .which is a term for angels and the like, cf. Luke 2:13: And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying. . .

Joagbaje:
. . .
Lucifer (Satan) was the angelic ruler on the earth before the time of Adam. He fell from his position before Adam was created

Satan did not fall before the creation of Adam. This point has been addressed elsewhere in the past.

---

. . .There was a time when I believed the gap theory just like you but Exodus 20:11 shattered that illusion. . .

[center]Was or Became[/center]

Hebrew OT: BHS Consonants & Vowels Transliterated:
1 be·re·shit ba·ra e·lo·him et ha·sha·ma·yim ve·'et ha·'a·retz. 2 ve·ha·'a·retz ha·ye·tah to·hu va·vo·hu ve·cho·shech al-pe·nei te·ho·vm ve·ru·ach e·lo·him me·ra·che·fet al-pe·nei ham·ma·yim.

"Gappists" translate “the earth was without form and empty” as “the earth became [or, ‘had become’] without form and empty.” At stake is the translation of the Hebrew word hayetah (a form of the Hebrew verb, hayah, “to be”).
The meaning of a word is controlled by its context, and verse 2 is circumstantial to verse 1. Thus, “was” is the most natural and appropriate translation for hayetah. It is rendered this way in almost all English versions (as well as the Septuagint). Furthermore, in Genesis 1:2 hayetah [/i]is not followed by the preposition [i]le, which would have removed any ambiguity in the Hebrew and required the translation “became.”

[center]Problems with the gap theory:[/center]

1. It is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states.

Exodus 20:11 says, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy”. Thus, the creation of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) and the sea and all that is in them (the rest of creation) was completed in six days. Where is there time for a gap?

2. It puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture.

From Romans 5:12, “Therefore, even as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as have sinned,” we understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam. The Bible teaches (1 Corinthians 15) that Adam was the first man, and as a result of his rebellion (sin), death and corruption (disease, bloodshed, and suffering) entered the universe. Before Adam sinned there could not have been any animal or human death. Note also that there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in “Lucifer's flood” because 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that Adam was the “first” man.

Romans 8:22 teaches us that “we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.” Clearly the whole of creation was, and is, subject to decay and corruption because of sin. The fossil record shows disease, decay, and death. When gap theorists believe that disease, decay, and death existed before Adam sinned, they ignore that this contradicts the teaching of Scripture.

Most importantly, the gap theory undermines the gospel at its foundations.

By accepting an ancient age for the earth (based on the standard uniformitarian interpretation of the geologic column), gap theorists leave the evolutionary system intact (which by their own assumptions they oppose).

Even worse, they must also theorize that Romans 5:12 and Genesis 3:3 refer only to spiritual death. But this contradicts other Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15; Genesis 3:22-23). These passages tell us that Adam's sin led to physical death as well as spiritual death. In 1 Corinthians 15 the death of the last Adam (the Lord Jesus Christ) is compared with the death of the first Adam. Jesus suffered physical death for man's sin, because Adam, the first man, died physically because of sin. Genesis 3:22-23 tells us that if Adam and Eve could have partaken of the fruit of the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever, but God decreed that they should die physically because of their sin.

The gap (or “ruin-reconstruction”) theory is based on a very tenuous interpretation of Scripture.

[center]The Straightforward Meaning of Genesis 1:1-2[/center]

The gap (or “ruin-reconstruction”) theory is based on a very tenuous interpretation of Scripture.

The simple, straightforward meaning of Genesis 1:1-2 is that when God at the beginning created the earth it was initially formless, empty, and dark, and God's Spirit was there above the waters. It was through His creative energy that the world was then progressively “formed and filled” during the remaining six days of creation.

Consider the analogy of a potter making a vase. The first thing he does is get a ball of clay. What he has is good, but it is unformed. Next, he shapes it into a vase, using his potter's wheel. Now it is no longer formless. He then might dry it, apply glaze, and fire it. Now it is ready to be filled—with flowers and water. At no time could one of the stages be considered evil or bad. It was just not finished—unformed (without form) and unfilled (void). When it was finally formed and filled, it could be described as “very good.”

God, of course, did not have to take six days to create everything, but he did this deliberately as a pattern for us—for our seven-day week.

You can follow up on this here

---

We must also understand that if Satan sinned and fell before Adam was created. . .that would mean that Creation was already marred since sin would then be already present on day six and thus God would not have said this: "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

But since at the end of the sixth day it was very good. . .then we know that Satan hadn't fallen then and there was no sin any where in all of creation.

Threads which previously discussed some of these views:
Was There A World Before Genesis 1?
How Long Did Adam & Eve Live In The Garden Of Eden?

Gbawe:

Indeed. The likes of Nnaji are good guys , too willing to serve their nation to the extent they ignore how their employer is an appointee of the system that revels in failure for the masses and stupendous wealth and overwhelming control for the few 'insiders' and "owners of Nigeria". Nnaji is supposed to defeat Atiku (Mikano) and other Vultures like Otedola when his last line of defense is a highly corrupt President sponsored into office to protect the interest of the "business as usual" crowd?

Prof Nnaji, you are a patriotic man but you were always fighting a losing battle as some of us concluded ages ago. You were a pawn in the wicked game vacuous opportunists deceived you with - all in the effort to pretend they are seeking solution while they deepen the problem. You are now a victim of the treachery of Nigerian politics that means corrupt Presidents,sponsored by saboteurs, deploy credible folks like you to add gloss to their regime while the real intention is that you never succeed. Just ask Tai Solarin et al.

I think you are being hasty in adducing this as the reason for his leaving that office. When the dust settles we 'll probably have a clearer view of what transpired. Why do you discount the businessday report on his conflicts of interest.

State police. . .

mkmyers45:
You are right and in my own research i have come to see that the egyptian connection definitely proves to be the strongest argument in this matter but i may be wrong though...

^
Research? Dubious to say the least. . .given that you said this:

mkmyers45:
Nothing wey i no go see for NL...mr man bring the chapter and verse make we see or else shut it

. . .and your "research" didn't lead you to this:
John 21: 25 (And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.)

^
You still haven't answered my quite specific question:

aletheia:
Please what is the meaning of everlasting in this verse?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

nedostic:
The truth remains that everlasting hell fire does not mean forever as it is depicted in english. Church traditions have not helped us either not to forget some (mis)translations in the Bible.One of my favorite sites is www.bible.cc,this site gives you varieties of translations with commentaries as well.

If anyone doubts the meaning of everlasting,please check out the meaing of 'AIONS' in greek.

^
Please what is the meaning of everlasting in this verse?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Was about to start a thread on this same issue. . .then I saw this. In the words of the OP:

Pastor Kun: No comment!

@OP: Your attempt at rewriting history has sunk to a new despicable low. May the evil that you wish on Nigerians be your lot instead.

petres_007: I'm not surprised its come to this. They're just moving a little faster than I thought.

Quite right.

NRI PRIEST:

Now I am confused; Seems like Idoma,Igbo and Igala has more in common than they actually know. Well Vinibabe,aletheia thinks differently. He thinks is an Igala expression for " Great lion" while I think its an Igbo expression for "a great man" or " great masqurade" so you tell me what "Agaba Idu" means in Idoma language. Thanks dear.

^
This paper highlights some of the linkages between Igala and Igbo. It may help your research.

afam4eva: @manny4life I'm not working towards being an American. Nothing can change my Nigerianess. What i want to know is why and how the America anthem could have an effect on me and not the Nigerian anthem.

^
Because the American anthem has a history and tells a story. The current Nigerian anthem is an artificial construct imposed on us by the Military. I really wish we 'd revert to the old national anthem:

Nigeria, we hail thee,
Our own dear native land,
Though tribe and tongue may differ,
In brotherhood we stand,
Nigerians all are proud to serve
Our sovereign Motherland.

Our flag shall be a symbol
That truth and justice reign,
In peace or battle honour'd,
And this we count as gain,
To hand on to our children
A banner without stain.

O God of all creation,
Grant this our one request,
Help us to build a nation
Where no man is oppressed,
And so with peace and plenty
Nigeria may be blessed.

@OP: Learn to use power responsibly. Here are some tips to cut down on energy expenditure.
1. Change all your light bulbs to low energy ones.
2. Switch off lights when you are not in the room. Conversely, only switch on lights in rooms that you are actually present in.
3. Boil only the amount of water you need. E.g. it is waste to boil a kettle of water when all you need is a cup of hot water.

If there is no power you will complain. Now you have 22hrs/day, you still complain. What do you people want?

nagoma: @aletheia

There have been all manners of repulsive crimes in history and i know you can bring the vivid gruesome account of them , committed by Muslim criminals or some other criminals , punished by law or not punished. What I can never accept is the collective guilt assigned to me because I am a Muslim . I am proudly law abiding Nigerian and a person respecting every bodies rights and because criminals and murderers happen to be Muslims or claimed Islam ,then i should share in the guilt and punishment? Nonsense, when I commit a crime as a citizen I Carry my own cross, so to speak. Find the criminals and treat them according to the law, that is what works for everybody Muslim or non Muslim and I support that. Shouting Islam , Islam generates more heat than light and so far has not solved any problems. Get the actors, Convict a few dozen people and hang them publically. That will send a message. I am sick and tired of being nagged because some criminal said he is a Muslim.

I am not assigning collective guilt to you. I recognize that there are a few Muslims who have tried their best to counter the violence. Even the excerpt I posted above shows that:

They beat up the school principal, a Muslim, for offering refuge to her

But it 's like you miss the point: BH has been made possible by the cultural milieu of Northern Nigeria, a milieu where 12 - 14 year olds murdered a woman in the name of religion, a milieu where tens of millions of children are on the streets in the name of religion, bereft of natural human affection and family nurturing which would have socialized them to respect life. A milieu encouraged and preserved by the Northern educated elite for selfish reasons. Why is it that the prominent social critics have been from the south. Where was the denunciation of the ills of Northern society by Northern Intelligentsia hitherto. Who has arisen to fill Mallam Aminu Kano's shoes? Northern Nigeria on the cusp of independence was a land full history and of potential. Where is that potential today?
BH is the culmination of years of failing to heed Ahmadu Bello's warning.

kunyeo:

you made your point;but you neednt go to the exte nt of pouring so much venon on me.i have a right to my opinion.thanks

I apologise for that. I was highly peeved by your post which seemed to be so uncharitable and ungracious to the Nigerian athletes. But we Nigerians need to stop pulling our Country down. The countries we admire did not get where they are now with their citizens caviling at every little thing.

Be a positive force for change and good in your own little corner. You sound like a reasonable chap but it seems you 've fallen into the trap of denigrating this country, whereas the reality is that Nigeria is not as bad as some would have us believe. Cheers and regards.

^

aletheia:
Any constructive engagement on your part would be better served by you having acquainted yourself with the Act. Otherwise the quality of your contribution on this thread has been poor. My first post on this thread has an attached copy of the Act. I suggest you read it first then come back for a discussion. Until then. . .

nagoma: Anybody who has the courage to say that not all Muslims support BH terrorism and some Muslims also victims of this terror, is immediately attacked and lynched by the NL warriors and is described as Boko Haram. I am pleased that under panful restraints the warriors are not outrightly labeling Bishop Mathew Kukah as Boko Haram.

Your response is typical of the self-serving rhetoric of the educated northern Hausa/Fulani elite like El-Rufai who avoid the glaring issue viz:

aletheia:
. . .the violence that BH targets at Non-Muslims [is] a continuum, a natural progression of violence meted out to Non-Muslims and Non-Hausa/Fulani/Kanuri in the past.

Who has attacked and lynched you for saying that "not all Muslims support BH terrorism and some Muslims are also victims of this terror". No body has denied that: what we are saying is the fact that Muslims have also been killed does not prove that BH does not have a religious agenda. After all Muslims have been killing themselves right from the get go (Shi'a vs Sunni etc).

Are you somewhat cocooned off that you fail to realize why the rest of the country sees BH as Muslim. Was it BH that beheaded Gideon Akakula? Was it BH that murdered that Mrs Christianah Oluwatoyin Oluwasesin?

Christianah Oluwatoyin Oluwasesin (first name also given as Christiana, last name also as Oluwaseesin, Oluseesin or Olusesan), (Ekiti State, 1977 – Gandu, Gombe State, 21 March 2007), was a Christian Nigerian teacher who was lynched by Muslim pupils for allegedly desecrating the Qur'an at a secondary school in Gandu, Gombe State, Nigeria, on March 21, 2007.
Oluwasesin, a mother of two, was assigned to supervise an Islamic Religious Knowledge exam. When one of the students wanted to enter the exam hall with his books, Oluwasesin collected them and threw them outside. The students claimed that one of the books was a copy of the Qur'an, started to chant "Allahu Akbar" (Allah is Great) and chased her to the school principal's office. They dragged her out of the office, stripped her naked and stabbed her to death. They then burnt her corpse in a car, beat up the school principal, a Muslim, for offering refuge to her, and burned down three classroom blocks, the school clinic, the administrative block and the library. [size=16pt]The marauding students were only 12 – 14 years old[/size] and supposedly joined by members of a gang called Yan Kalare.

What sort of people and culture indoctrinates children to kill? That of the Hausa/Fulani Muslim.

You the educated Muslim northerners did not condemn neither did you re-educate your people on this evil acts. . .because you felt those murdered were getting their just desserts. Your scriptures say "he who saves a life, it were as if he had saved the whole of mankind", but did you teach your children this? Or did you teach them to hate others? Why should you now be befuddled that your dogs have turned on you.

There is a hatred and rage that burns in the hearts of a lot of northern Muslims who pour that hate into their children:

A source in the family told the Nigerian Tribune that, “we are Christians and their children have been telling our wards that some day, they are going to slaughter all of us. We never took them seriously because we never thought they could be so mean as to perpetrate such evil.

Source

Note that these are "ordinary" folks. . .and you wonder why the rest of us are not deceived by your attempts to spin BH as not Muslim.

BH are Muslims. Their violence is not different from the one your people have been meting out to other Nigerians like the late Mrs Oluwasesin and Gideon Akaluka for years now.

Memorable among other brutal accounts targeting Christians is the 1995 case of the beheading of Gideon Akaluka, an Igbo trader, in Kano. Akaluka was accused of desecrating the Holy Koran in 1995 and subsequently held in jailed detention. While, there militant Islamic fanatics stormed the prison, seized and killed him. Impaling his severed head on a stick they matched triumphantly in festive celebration around Kano City. What a death, and what a civilization of bestiality!

The only difference now is that BH is out of control and attacks some other Muslims as well. No doubt if BH restricted all their attacks to Churches, you would have no problem with them. You question their Islamic credentials because some Muslims are killed as well.

kunyeo: . . .but was celebrated for breaking the African and Commonwealth records!

At OP: you are an id[i]i[/i]o[b]t[/b]! An evil-minded, wicked, evil-eyed Nigerian suffering from PHD syndrome compounded by low self-esteem and ingratitude. . .those young men and women representing us at the Olympics are your betters and deserve our approbation and encouragement, they are competing and giving their best for Nigeria.

Get out from behind your keypad and go and break some African and Commonwealth records, before you come here to complain.

nagoma:
As a point of fact Nigerians , primarily non Muslims insist on accepting BH as the spokesmen and the representatives of all Nigeria or at least all northern Muslims. This belief is not based on real conviction but based on political expediency and international political " correctness" for the criminalizing Islam and Muslims as a body. There are not many who can detach themselves and think out of the box of this often unjustifiable orchestration.

Why do you think that is? A lot of (or possibly a few) Northern Muslims think that BH stands apart and does not represent Islam. They see the violence that BH targets at Non-Muslims as something of recent onset. The truth is that it is not so. The rest of us see it as a continuum, a natural progression of violence meted out to Non-Muslims and Non-Hausa/Fulani/Kanuri in the past. We remember the hate and the riots and the killings in Kaduna, Kano, Jos etc.

It is easy for the elite educated Northern Muslims like yourself in their comfort zones to discount this view, but for those of us who have had to flee or hide while a mob chanting "Allahu Akbar" kills our loved ones and destroys and loots our property, BH is not new. . .it is the latest incarnation of a culture that has been prevalent for generations up north. It is personal as in the case of a taxi driver who swore to me never to have anything to do with the Hausa/Fulani; his reason: right before his eyes, his elder brother was killed in the Miss World Kaduna riots, and he only barely escaped with his life and a scar on his neck from the attempted beheading. For ones such as these, it is a self-serving argument to claim that "More Muslims have been killed by BH". BH could only have arisen because the culture of the North provided fertile ground. There is abject poverty all over the country, but why didn't BH arise in Kogi state or Ekiti state?

I recall some while back telling some of my Northern educated Muslim colleagues like yourself that their failure to provide leadership in their communities, their failure to condemn violence targeting non-Muslim and non-Hausa/Fulani/Kanuri would one day come back to haunt them. I distinctly remember reminding them of Martin Niemoller's quote to buttress my warning.

Today what do we see: BH who are most definitely Muslims targets those Muslims in positions of authority who should have spoken out in the past and had the leverage to change that culture of violence.

koruji: Once a group becomes willing to engage in suicide-bombing there is no reasoning with that group. It is as simple as that - they have exited the realm of reason.

Kukah glosses over this very very important fact. Suicide bombing shows that this group have an ideology and doctrine and a singular world-view that they are willing to die for.

Pukkah:

The answer to the question you have asked is so self-evident especially if you read the thread from the beginning. For example, what is the debt limit for the various tiers of government?

Show me where that is stated on this thread. Certainly not in the article you posted, neither in the back and forth name-calling and pissing contest that has largely characterised this thread. It is almost certain that you have not taken the time to actually read the Fiscal Responsibility Act 2007, otherwise you wouldn't be getting too excited by a little grandstanding by some lawyers whose court challenge is going no where.

You will be probably be surprised to find that the Medium term Fiscal Framework portion of the Act grants enormous leeway to the FGN in terms of debt, and the language is worded in such a way as to allow the FGN to determine the debt limit as it sees fit.

Any constructive engagement on your part would be better served by you having acquainted yourself with the Act. Otherwise the quality of your contribution on this thread has been poor. My first post on this thread has an attached copy of the Act. I suggest you read it first then come back for a discussion. Until then. . .

Pukkah: Bereft of sound arguments, they have all fled and absconded: the cowardly, the ignorant, and the clueless.

They only know how to litter threads with insults and pollute posts with obscene words and statements. Tell them to address the issue of GEJ and fiscal responsibility and they will abuse, insult and divert your attention.

They are an eloquent testimony of part of what is wrong with the country: mediocrity, erosion of values/suppression of conscience, and celebration of filthy lucre.

A certain fellow that was proudly selling MTN cheats and boastfully making a living from 'free browsing' is now a paid agent and mercenary. What do you expect other than the continuation of his swindling skills: fraud, manipulation and sleaze.

I pity these crooks, con artists and artful dodgers; but I pity Nigeria more.

Despite all this long grammar and name calling, you have not actually shown how the FGN is in breach of the Fiscal Responsibility Act 2007. All you did was post a news article. You also guilty of that which you accuse your traducers of.

Katsumoto:
I can't believe you just posted that. You are just as guilty as most others, especially with your gifs and jpegs, etc. The situation in NL is not much different from Capitol Hill where people are so entrenched in their positions that it's difficult for opponents to find a common ground.

I don't believe in taking beef from thread to thread and I would prefer it if others did the same. Perhaps, its because I am only a part stakeholder.

At the end of the day, Nigeria is in trouble and these positions are ruinous.

I know you love GEJ, that much is very clear. But the opposition is the opposition; it is the job of the opposition to keep the executive and legislature on its toes. Not unless anyone here has identified himself as a senator, rep, governor, etc they are stakeholders and must be treated as such. The strategy of engaging them, will not bear fruit because you alienate not just those you attack but the independents as well. If Cameroonians, Ghanians, Togolese, etc attack GEJ, then you are free to respond in kind because they are not stakeholders.

It is impossible for any human being to be right all the time and that is why it is impossible for anyone to be defended all the time except by those who are employed to do so. Millions of Americans will vote for Obama in November but many are those who have criticized his policies in the past 3 and a half years.

Just my two cents but then again, we are all different.

You were probably the only sane voice on this thread. . .instead of debating the merits or otherwise of the lawyers' action, almost everyone defaulted into entrenched positions.

Two pages of heat without light. Sadly no one so far on this thread has bothered verifying if indeed if the Federal Government is in breach of the Fiscal Responsibility Act before taking up their various predetermined positions. For some anything anti-GEJ is welcome whether true or not, and for others anything anti-GEJ is anathema whether justified or not. This makes for the kind of thread we 've seen here so far.

Apropos, it would appear the lawyers hinge their arguments on this portion of the Act:

42. Limits on consolidated debt of federal, State and Local Governments
1) The President shall within 90 days from the commencement of this Act and with
advise from the Minister of Finance subject to approval of National Assembly, set
overall limits for the amounts of consolidated debt of the federal, State Governments
pursuant to the provisions of items 7 and 50 of Part I of the Second Schedule of the
constitution and the limits and conditions approved by the National Assembly, shall
be consistent with the rules set in this Act and with the fiscal policy objectives in the
Medium term fiscal Framework.
2) Outstanding judgement debts not paid shall be considered part of the
consolidated debts for the purpose of application of the respective limits set in
pursuance of this section.
3) For the purpose of verifying compliance with the limits specified pursuant to this
section, the Commission shall at the end of each quarter, determine the amount of
the Consolidated debt of each tier of government.
4) The Commission shall publish, on a quarterly basis, a list of the Governments in
the federation that have exceeded the limits of consolidated debt, indicating the
amount by which the limit was exceeded.
5) Where at the end of any quarter, the consolidated debt of the Federal, State or
Local Government exceeds the respective limits, it shall be brought within the limit,
not later than the end of the three subsequent quarters with a minimum of 25 per
cent reduction in the first quarter.
6) Violators of the limits specified pursuant to this section shall:
a. Be prohibited from borrowing from internal or external sources, except for
the refinancing of existing debts; and
b. Bring the debt within the established limited by restricting funding
commitments accordingly.
7) Where non-compliance with the limit specified pursuant to this section persist
after the time limited by subsection (5) of this section, the affected tier of
Government shall also be prohibited from receiving grants from any other
Government in the Federation.
Whenever the fundamentals of the proposals referred to in this section are
changed due to economic instability or change in monetary or exchange policies, the
President shall submit to the National Assembly a request for a review of the current
limits.

Of interest is the part that states "the limits and conditions approved by the National Assembly, shall be consistent with the rules set in this Act and with the fiscal policy objectives in the Medium term fiscal Framework."

Part II of the Act which describes the Medium term fiscal Framework states:

12. Aggregate expenditure ceiling
The estimates of:
1. Aggregate expenditure and the aggregate amount appropriated by the
National Assembly for each financial year shall not be more than the
estimated aggregate revenue plus a deficit, not exceeding three per cent of
the estimated Gross Domestic Product or any sustainable percentage as may
be determined by the national Assembly for each financial year.
2. Aggregate expenditure for the financial tear may exceed the ceiling imposed
by the provisions of subsection (1) of this section, if in the opinion of the
president there is a clear and present threat to national security or
sovereignty of the Federal Republic of Nigeria.

Looking at this we see that there are loop-holes large enough to drive a lorry through in the Act. . .that it is doubtful if the lawyers can get anything in court.

Attached is a copy of the Act for those interested in reading for themselves.