₦airaland Forum

algorithm: The level of arrogance i see in that church marvels me.
na wao..

You are so right. People have no clue why they are in "Church".

THE CHRISTIAN GOLDEN AGE

One natural byproduct of Muslims westernizing was that, for the first time in history, the Christians of the Islamic world were by and large no longer oppressed - certainly not by the standards of their previous history under Islam. Two causes account for this Christian Golden Age in the Muslim world. In the 1st place the European powers, which in the 19th century still largely identified with Christianity, directly intervened in the Muslim world to liberate and protect Christians. Second and more important was the fact that many Muslims emulated Western ways, naturally sloughing off their Islamic identity and mentality and the contempt for the "infidels" that, as we shall see, is an integral part of that mentality.

So, the discriminatory Sharia laws governing "dhimmis" - that is non-Muslims living in conditions of subjugation and humiliation under Islamic hegemony - were all abolished during this era. The most obvious example was the abolition of the "jizya" - the monetary tribute Christians had to pay to safeguard their lives in an Islamic state. In 1856, the Ottoman Empire, under pressure from European powers, especially England and France, issued the Hatt-i Humanyun decree as part of it's overall reforms: for the 1st time in Islam's 1,200 years of existence (at the time), non-Muslims, and their right to religious freedom and worship was to be guaranteed.

Of course, one should not oversimplify the situation. There were still pious Muslims and oppressed Christians even during this period. The point s that, overall, acceptance of Christians reached unprecedented levels during this era - hence it is rightfully referred to as the Golden Age.

Christians, or their part, came to champion yet another Western innovation - nationalism - that helped identify them no longer as members of a religious minority but as fellow members of the nation-state. Membership in "the Arabic Nation" was open to everyone who spoke Arabic, which obviously included Christians. It was a subtle but important shift from the predecessor idea of the umma, the distinctly Muslim nation. In the 1920s and 1930s, Egyptian intellectuals traced their lineage to and identified with Pharaonic and Hellenistic Egypt - not the Arab past.

In slightly different terms, the era when Christians lived in relative safety in the Muslim world is so much closer to us in time than the "storybook" centuries of persecution that many in the West cannot but filter current events through this Golden Age paradigm. But the facts speak for themselves. In 1900, at the height of the Golden Age, 20% of the Middle East was still Christian, whereas today less than 2% is, and the Christian population is rapidly dwindling. In our lifetime, Christians may disappear altogether from Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran.

striktlymi: This thread serves that purpose conveniently. No need to start another one. If we want to discuss about the persecutions Christians suffer from Muslims, then it would only be proper to look at both sides of the coin and not the one-sided view you have up there.

While you have a point, I disagree that this thread should discuss the other point you noted. This thread was started to discuss the past and present persecution that Christians are suffering mainly in Islamic countries and where Sharia or some form of it is the norm. Now, I can't stop you from posting what you want and may but I will not engage you because I want to concentrate on the theme and purpose of this thread.

From it's very beginnings, Islam's appeal was tied to it's ability to offer it's followers worldly success & prosperity. From Muslim prophet Muhammed's 1st successful caravan raid at Badr to the centuries of jihad conquests that followed, Islam was synonymous with power and success. From the 7th century to the 19th century, Muslims were accustom to being the victors. Up until that time, they saw in Christian Europe just another part of the world that in due time would also be conquered & annexed to Islam.

In just the 1st few decades of it's existence, Islam had already conquered half of the Christian world's lands - including regions that were the backbone of early Christainity, such as Syria & Egypt - while Europe was continually besieged. For centuries, European Christians lived perpetually under the threat of the Islamic conquest that forever changed the Mediterranean.

Then the unthinkable happened. In 1798, Napoleon Bonaparte, an infidel from Christendom, invaded and subjugated Eqypt, the heart of the Islamic world, with barely a struggle. This crushing defeat was followed by any number of European powers conquering and colonizing much of the muslim world. As a result, for the 1st time in history, Muslims questioned the superior strength of Islam and its power to fulfill their desires; for the 1st time in history, Muslims looked with awe and respect to the West.

It was one thing to hold unhesitatingly to Islam and Sharia when Islam was conquering and subjugating non-Muslims, as it had done for well over a millennium. It was quite another thing for Muslims to remain confident in the Islamic way when the despised Christians infidels were conquering and subjugating the lands of Islam with great ease - displaying their superior weapons and technology, not to mention all the other perks of Western civilization. In the oft-quoted words of Osama bin Laden "When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse"

vedaxcool: Let me share the link of a dedicated atheist who collects information of Christian persecution of Muslim, ok I won't share it yet, I probably would start my own thread detailing Christian persecution of Muslims in the west!

but here is one,

If you need more just holla!

Oga, tag along and post constructively. I have always told you, if what I am saying is not true, provide facts to disprove it

vedaxcool:

Spencer now banned from the UK for obvious reasons being a hate merchant can only be the hero of misguided people, when u go to websites that preach hate and buy into such hate, a certain part of your brain cells dries, I think the part that has to be with thinking! I vist websites of Spencer and Raymond whenever I want to have a good laugh at paranoia disturb!

I wonder if it was Spencer that blew up the Twin Towers or if he was the one was started the London bombings or the bombings in Spain . Robert Spencer is one of the best academia on Islam & to date, none of your major Islamic Scholar wants to debate him. If what he is saying is not true, surely he would be exposed. The UK is known for not wanting to offend muslims, so it will tell you that the beheading of an innocent soldier by Isamic fanatics like your Yoruba muslim brother who butchered the man in public and told us why he did it quoting Surah 9 is not religious motivated but that Robert Spencer coming to pay his respects is not conducive for public peace

vedaxcool: Evangelism by lies, why the inconsistency?



https://www.nairaland.com/1277576/8-reasons-why-don-t/2#15653734




Since you now accept wiki we are left with this link,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Why not start your own thread where Christians are persecuting muslims and we can discuss it. If I write anything that is not true, kindly refute it but don't stand here and attack me as if it will stop me from saying what I want to say. You haven't provided one link in regards to what I have said is untrue.

Is the Pact of Omar false? Are the Coptics been killed in Eqypt and the muslim brotherhood killing them and burning their churches false? Are your brothers up in Northern Nigeria an illusion - bombing churches, killing Christians - are those lies vexacool? If I am lying, point me out and say I am but don't come here and start attacking my character as if that will in someway distort the truth of this thread. If this was in the muslim section, my posts wouldn't have been hidden or I would have been locked out of the thread

So, sit back and take a chill pill and let us intelligently research history.

Emusan: I wonder when christians will stop all these and begin to do the right thing commanded by our Lord Jesus.


Shalom!

What is the right thing?

striktlymi: Hi Alex,

What about cases where Christians become the persecutors of Muslims?

Hi striktlymi,

Please start a thread on it and we will discuss it

proo212: @Alexis, I actually have the book by Raymond Ibrahim on my kindle (though I have not read it yet - but soon) and i'm a frequent visitor to his website so i know a subset of what is in the book. I'm sure by the time i finish it this thread will be long gone.

The prayer is that with this thread, those who are on the fence will see and will be convicted in their spirit and inner mind to begin to serve the true and the living God.

This thread is based on some of the research and references by Raymond Ibrahim, whom I consider an amazing and gifted author. I have read the Quran, reading it, reading the Hadiths and compiling historical text like the "Conditions of Omar". Raymond does an excellent job of explaining the historical context and providing a glimpse of what Christians went through during the centuries of Islamic conquest and persecution. I am also basing my work on Robert's Spencer "Infidel's Guide to the Quran" which I think every Muslim and non-Muslim should read

basilico: Like you I am frequently banned there when islam has no answers. Out of experience I always argue on the quran and the hadiths that muslims there declared as authentic. I was told by muslims there that Bukhari is sahìh. I only quote him directly if I have to else I use the quran. As a word of advice on this thread I would like you to request muslims here to tell us which are their authentic sources. Then we start from there. I hope the mods here dont move it to big mac section. What you want to start should be allowed to go on uninhibited. We have questions from their own sources let them rebutt our arguments. Ill join in later and I promise to only quote the sources the muslims themselves tell us that they are sahìh.

Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are AUTHORITATIVELY Hadiths that nearly all Muslims subscribe to. The Muslim argument that the Hadith(s) are not authentic is a cheap escape and doesn't hold water. Al-Bukhari & Sahih Muslim are some of the earliest sources of Muslim traditions. So, if a muslim in the 21st century comes and tell you that it is not authentic, ask him if he is an authority on the Quran & Hadith?

Pastor Olu T: Believe me when I say I know what u talk about, for I am indeed a witness n I intend to write about it someday, maybe opening a thread on it? Following this thread.

I will appreciate your input and I encourage you to share your experience

At this moment, from one end of the Muslim world to the other, Christians are being persecuted. A January 2012 Reuters report cited an estimated "100 million Christians persecuted world-wide" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians. A few years earlier the British Secret Service, M-16, had put the number of Christians been persecuted around the world at twice as high, 200 million http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/200_million_christians_in_60_countries_subject_to_persecution/. A human rights representative for the Organization for Security and Cooperation on Europe estimates that a Christian is killed for his faith "every five minutes" http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/sociologist-every-5-minutes-a-christian-is-martyred.

The vast majority of those martyrs are being killed in the Islamic world. Eight of the top nine offending countries - Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Maldives, Mali, Iran and Yemen - have a majority of Muslims (the 9th, Eritrea, is roughly half muslim). Of the top 50 countries documented for their persecution of Christians, 42 either are Muslim-majority nations or have a sizeable Muslim population that is attempting to subjugate or eliminate surronding Christians (Nigeria being the primary example of the latter pattern).

From one end of the Muslim world to another, Christians are suffering under the return of Sharia or some form of implementation of Sharia. Often translated as "Islamic law," Sharia simply means the "Islamic way" of doing things. Accordingly, whereever and whenever Muslims are in power or getting more power, churches are outlawed, burned, bombed, while Bibles and crucifixes are confiscated and destroyed. Freedom of speech - to speak positively of Christianity or critically of Islam - is denied, often on pain of death. Born Muslims who wish to convert to Christianity out of sincere religious conviction are denied this basic freedom, also on pain of death. Christians are deemed to be less than 2nd-class citizens by many Muslim governments and Muslim populations.

Although Muslim persecution of Christians is one of the most dramatic stories of our times, it is also one of the least known in the West. Also, most Christians do not know how to respond to the persecution. Such ignorance was not always the case, Ironically, much of what I will be discussing will be new to some Western readers and Christians alike. The exact patterns we see today in the Muslim persecution of Christians were quite familiar to Christians who lived in contact with the Muslim world in pas centuries.

Tragically, a misunderstanding of the past has both exacerbated Muslims persecution of Christians and blinded the West and most Christians to it's scope and real cause.

I am setting up this thread in the religious section (Not under the Islam section) because the moderator for the Islam section hides many of my posts whenever he fells it is necessary. To that effect, I want to discuss an important subject that most people either evade, try to be politically correct about of just too scared to talk about -

I will be talking about the persecution of Christians across the Islamic world. I will be examining recent incidents from across a wide geographical spread, from Morocco to Nigeria to Indonesia-and even sometimes in Western Europe & North America. I will also be delving back into the past to consider the treatment of Christians under Muslim rule from the time of the earliest Islamic conquests.

Christians are being persecuted in Muslim countries today for the same reasons as in the past centuries. And the patterns of persecution-the same motivations, the same actions, and the same horrific results-recur in countries as different as Kenya and Denmark. Those patterns, I will demonstrate, emerge from themes in the Koran, in Islamic theology, in Sharia law, and in Islamic culture.

I will be touching on the large numbers of Christians in Egypt-according to the baptismal records of the Coptic orthodox Church, there are some 16 million Christian Copts in Egypt-prompt regular bursts of anti-Christian persecution. Indeed, as one of the oldest and largest Muslim nations, with one of the oldest and largest Christian populations, Egypt is a kind of paradigm of Islam's treatment of Christian-both in the present and going back more than 13 centuries.

In sub-Saharan countries where Christians often make up half or even more than half of the entire population, persecution gives way to genocidal jihads as Muslims in these countries try to purge their lands of any trace of the "infidel." Nigeria, for example is experiencing appalling violence; the accounts of persecution are only the tip of the iceberg of Christian suffering in Africa. In Nigeria, where Christians make up nearly half the population, we are being offered a rare glimpse of early Islamic history repeating itself, as Muslims use violence to subjugate or kill very large numbers of non-Muslims in the name of Islam and through offensive jihad. That is the true story of Islam's spread from Arabia.

Why am I focusing on the Muslim persecution of Christians? The fact is, while it is true that Christians are also being persecuted in non-Muslims countries, the lion's share of the persecution happens in Muslim countries. But there is another important point: Muslim persecution is much more existential and deeply rooted in Muslim societies. The persecution of Christians in other, mostly communist, nations is very real. It should never be minimized. But the overthrow of, say, the North Korean regime could well end the persecution of Christians over there almost overnight-just as the fall of the Soviet Union saw Christian's persecution come to a quick close in Russia. This is because the persecution of Christians in non-Muslim nations is almost always rooted in secular ideology and tied to a particular political regime. On the other hand, Muslim persecution of Christians is perennial; it transcends any one regime. It is part and parcel of the Islamic religion and the civilization born of it-hence it's tenacity. Thus, the persecution of Christians in the Muslim world is not only a widespread phenomenon that has horrific effects on large numbers of human beings across the globe; it is also a discrete phenomenon, deserving attention in it's own right.

I want to engage Muslims, Christians and anyone interested in this thread to be patient and follow what I have to say and the research I have done on this subject.

Thanks

Nairatalks: That is saying a whole lot of nothing!

Which he is very good at

eninn

United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to an FBI report, in the year 1990, everyday on an average 1756 rapes were committed in USA alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.

Crime exist in every country and there is no religious leaning to this in the US. Perhaps you should ask Pakistanis why they like to se..xua..l in.ter.course with animals

Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrists. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?

Sharia in disguise Go to Egypt and see how the hijab doesn't prevent men from sexually assaulting women openly. Whether they are muslims or not.

--------

Hijab of women and dignified behavior of youths have always been a strong barrier against the Satan`s temptations. The comparison of the statistics of sexual crimes in the society indicates that the women, who have hijab, play an important role in the decrease of social mischiefs. Most of sexual crimes will be removed by the chastity and purity of youths and women hijab. If the chastity exists in looking, behavior and deed, the sexual agitations and fake excitements and love which have involved many young persons, are annihilated, and the ethical health dominate the society.

Then why do thousands of muslims leave their home country and migrate to the US? If Sharia is perfect and awesome as you claim, muslims should stay in their home lands. I wonder how you feel about women dressing like ninjas

‘Abdullāh Ibn S*āmit reports on the authority of Abū Dharr that the Prophet (sws) said: ‘When any one of you stands for prayer he is covered [from the passers by] if there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle. In case there is no such thing before him, his prayer would be nullified if a menstruating woman, a donkey or a black dog [passes in front of him]. (Muslim, No: 510)

So, if you are praying and a women in her menses passes by - Allah will refuse your prayer? Does that make common sense to you?

basilico: When a muslim wants a divorce all if has so do is say the talaq 3 times and wi'll be deemed to have had his divorce. Now when a muslim woman wants a divorce she has to go to a sharia court adjudicated by an Arabic speaking imam.

Oga, we don't do that in the West. If you marry here, saying I divorce 3 times is NOT enough. If you don't divorce your wife properly and marry another - the law will put you in jail

Sissie: Sorry meant previous post

Sorry, I don't seem to pin-point it, can you paste it here please. Thanks

basilico: If a man issues the talak 3 times in a minute out of anger he is deemed to have divorced his wife. But because i t was out of temporal anger He may want her back. Unfortunately he cannot re.marry his wife until she marries another man, consumates her new marriage and then gets divorced. Islam indeed has great respect for women.

That might be relevant where Islam is the dominant political and religious way of life. In the West, you file for divorce. When you marry a woman, both of you marry in the presence of eye-witnesses and in a religious establishment or court of law. So, when you want to divorce her - verbally saying it, isn't enough.

Sissie: I explained it and tbaba also did, read the previous thread.

I may have missed it, can you provide the link please, thanks

joker5180: a shari'a court can not terminate a marriage simply because the husband marry a second wife however, the court can terminate that marriage if the woman can convince the court that man is not able to treat his wives FAIRLY

My point exactly.

Sissie: @Alexis what I mean by not entirely true, is that Islam has made polygamy fair to women. However some Muslims have not made it fair to the women.

Islam is fair about it.

Okay, thanks for clarifying

Sissie

If certain things are in place, I am ok being in a polygamous marriage

Please explain these things

The sharia court is allowed to separate a marriage if the man marry a second wife and she's not ok with it.

Can you give me an example from the Quran or Hadith?