₦airaland Forum

nagoma: Christian values indeed! They are screaming and shouting about an Arab in an Arab society about 1500 years ago marrying a 9 year old according to their customs with the consent of parents, dowry and all parphnelia of marriage customs. But they ignore the fact that today in the 21st century 2012, priests in churches are molesting boys. A big Christian priest poking a choir boy in the anus. And that is not disgusting to them!! By the way what was the marriage custom in your own community 1500 years ago? I guess you were intermarrying with gorillas and chimpanzees. Tell me how your ancestors did their marriage 1500 years ago - Assuming they ever did. We know what goes on as normal church sexual life - Google it yourself. Go tell someone else about the non existent Christian values when homosexuals are priests and men are marrying men in churches!

And have you seen any decent human being whether christian or not supporting it? Whether a priest does it in the church or a man does it in his room, do you see us DEFENDING IT? When the Anglican church appointed a gay bishop some years back - what happened? It was condemned and over half of the church almost broke away. Just because it happens doesn't mean Christians support it neither do we defend it. We call it out for what it is - WRONG. Again, you are here justifying your prophet marriage to a 6 year old by pointing out that priests in churches molest young boys so as a result, it is alright. BOTH ARE WRONG!Tintingz said jews did the same and Mary was 12 yet he hasn't showed us in the Bible where it says Mary was 12 when she married Joseph. I have also asked his friend Hallie27 and she keeps dodging the question too. Maybe you can tell me if Jesus ever married a 6 year old based on tintingz reasoning.

Point of correction, Aisha was 6 years old when Mohammed married her; she wasn't 9. She was 9 when he consummated the marriage. Now you are claiming it's arab custom and not written in your holy writs. So Mohammed was an arab and married a 6 year old means it's right. We know in Islam, it is the policy of "Ta abbudi" - the Quran must "be accepted without criticism". Most of your muslim friends have quoted it several times i.e. "If the Quran says it is right, then it is right". Ayatollah Khomeini, one of the most famous Islamic clerics of the twentieth century, taken from his book Tahreer Al Wasila:

"A man is not to have intimate intercourse with his wife before she is nine years old, whether regularly or occasionally, but he can have intimate pleasure from her, whether by touching or holding her, or rubbing against her, even if she is as young as an infant. However, had he penetrated her without deflowering her, then he holds no responsibility towards her. But if a man penetrates and deflowers the infant (...), then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life."

He said this less than 5 decades ago, not 1500 years ago. Gorillas and Chimpanzees don't marry their infants nor do they have intercourse with them. They are smarter than that and more evolved. Actually, they have something called common sense!

nagoma - "By the way what was the marriage custom in your own community 1500 years ago? I guess you were intermarrying with gorillas and chimpanzees. Tell me how your ancestors did their marriage 1500 years ago - Assuming they ever did". So it has switched from the topic at hand to my ancestors now abi? . Let me tell you something about my ancestors that predates 1500 years ago - they were smart enough to KNOW THE SUN DIDN'T SET IN A POOL OF WARM WATER. . Yet your prophet in all his wisdom and with all the revelations he received didn't know where the sun set.

You guys just made my day

Hallie27: @tintingz,dont mind the poor guy,he's really angry cos i cant waste my time on him..

@alexis, sorry for making you sweat this much,the problem is...i dont just have time to waste on you..so rant as much as you can about proofs and lines of reasoning and endorsements etc etc etc,if am not going to talk, i wont talk. Doesnt change what i know and what i dont, and i dont even have anything to prove to you so why should i please you with proofs?? If i dont feel like playing with you or by your babyish rules, abeg se ke ce dolle ne?? The highest you can do is continue to insult me, and you know what,i dont really expect much from you...
So keep it up crybaby...am really enjoying your desperation lol

No be you claim Mary was 12? - tell us where it said it in the Bible and you KEEP dodging the question and complaining that I am insulting you. Even your homeboy tintingz doesn't have an answer. His response is - go and ask the Catholic church, as if the Catholic church is the Bible. Your deliberate lies is what is offensive. I don't need your time, I need you to back up your CLAIM. You said Christians were the first Terrorist, I have asked you to back up your CLAIM on that again.

tintingz: dont mind him i have anwsered his question...he is just looking for a way to argue more and insult

Mary was 7 to 10 when she was betroth to Joseph she married Joseph 12 years and got pregnant either 12 or 13 yr i have provide links for him and this are the catholics belief about Mary...

Just tell him to go and ask any catholic church about the age of Mary(as) dont waste your time on him

You make a claim and ask me to ask the Catholic church? I wonder how you think. When I quoted something, did I ask you to go ask ask a Sunni Cleric or did I quote it from the Quran. I keep telling you guys - the Quran and Hadith are the only AUTHORITATIVE source on anything related to Islam. So is the Bible to Christianity. So, you guys only proof that Mary was 12 was because Catholics said it? Nevermind, it shows your level or reasoning.

Hallie27: seriously.....
I really dont know why you enjoy insulting me, if you arent conversant with history, and if your knowledge is myopic, is that my fault? Why do you have to wait for me to tell you an answer you can otherwise find for yourself, or do you think i have enoough time to waste on you and your cohorts?
Then you said am embarassed,frustrated and desperate cos of bla bla bla Lolz..seriously, anytime i read the posts you address to me, i cant just stop laughing, cos you d one that always sound desperate and always screaming for my attention. I have no business with boko haram or whoever is interested in doing whatever his mind feels is right. If you feel violence is attributed to Islam, no problem,its your opinion and has nothing to do with my life and lives of other muslims. And If you are interested in knowing about Mary, the christian crusaders who initiated the first suicide bombing in history, or what boko haram is really about, do your assignment yourself and stop screaming my name around,k?
...and thanks for the advice,i'll see my doctor about my deficiencies lolz.....

If you make a claim, you are to follow through with it and CONFIRM it otherwise you keep quiet if you don't have anything important to say. Now, I have to find the answer for myself abi, Kaaai - you are a lazy student oh!. When I stated that Mohammed said the sun sets in a pool of water. Did I tell tintingz and skak to go read history. I BACKED up my claim from the Quran and the Hadith, I never made the claim, the Quran and Hadith did.

You always find a sly way to avoid the question - if you hadn't claimed MARY was 12 when she got married to Joseph in comparison that Mohammed married a 6 year old child and consummated the marriage at 9, why in the world will I ask you to back it up - if you can't back it up then you have no proof, if you have no proof then you are LYING - do you see now why I am insisting you back it up. Now, you are bringing up crusaders and again claiming Christians were the first suicide bombers indirectly endorsing suicide bombing in Islam. I am not insulting you but your line of reasoning in all honesty is hilarious and out of touch with reality. Tintingz and skak usually referenced the Quran, Hadith or some website. Tintingz was the one that always used the website but at least he had a source.

I don't feel violence is attributed to Islam - IT'S NOT MY FEELINGS - it's everywhere, from Northern Nigeria, to Mali, to Egypt and Syria. So, you don't have any business with BH now, in your world they must be Christians abi? If you have any integrity whatsoever, never make a claim and refuse to back it up. It makes you look stupid.

Hallie27: *passing by*........
No wonder the first suicide bombing recorded in history was done by followers of christ, go study ur history very well...
Little wonder The Americans and israelis cant just stop invading muslim countries,because of their greed,covetuosness nd bloodlust, and when muslims defend themselves,they call them 'terrorists'...
And pls stop arguing, concentrate on how you'll make it to heaven, if you feel all muslims are doomed, then leave us to our problems,we aint complainin to you,are we?
Na wa oh.....

Your issue is that you make claims and you don't back them up. It shows that you have no factual evidence. Talking for talking sake and beating the air. Earlier, you claimed that Mary was 12 years old when she married Joseph, I challenged you openly to prove it from the Bible. YOU HAVEN'T. Again, you are claiming that the first suicide bomber was a Christian. It only shows how EMBARRASSED you are with all the violence been perpetuated in the name of Islam, your embarrassment has turned to frustration and in desperation, you want to link Christianity with violence so you can justify the VIOLENCE in Islam.

Are Muslims (Boko Haram) defending themselves in Northern Nigeria when they BOMB Christians worshiping at churches or when they round them up at night from their sleep and cut their throats (including women and children)? When Sunni car bombers kill Shia pilgrims in Iraq, is that what you call defense? Or is America or Israel in Algeria where Islamic fundamentals have kidnapped innocent people and killed scores of them? Have you heared a Christian terrorist tied a suicide vest to himself in Iraq, ran to a Mosque and killed himself? And while he was at it - He shouted JEHOVAH is Great!

Your problem is that you reason like a 5 year old. Use facts when you talk openly on public forums. Your statement shows your level of understanding when it comes to the Quran. Muslims have a right to defend themselves, in fact, everyone does - it's common sense. That is one of the concept of Jihad. In this form, Jihad is defensive and it should be. If someone comes into my property without my consent with bad intentions to hurt and harm my family, they better have bigger guns than I do because I will empty all 8 magazines on them. So, it's common sense. The 2nd form of JIHAD is struggle against self - to make yourself a better person. For example, if you have the habit of lying and want to stop, you struggle to stop telling lies. That is an example of personal JIHAD. The 3rd form of JIHAD is OFFENSIVE - you are a muslim, you should know that. When you are not attacked and you attack someone, that is offense. That is what Boko Haram is doing in the north. Israel & America didn't invade Kano or Kaduna so who are they fighting against? VIOLENCE IN ISLAM IS SPIRITUAL & ITS REAL.

Again, make sure you eat alot of vegetables and fruits so you can get all the nutrients (A good break-fast) because it appears your reasoning is deficient

plappville: [size=18pt]PROVE: Thursday 17 January 2013 [/size]

Algeria hostage crisis: several killed in air strikes
Algeria raided a remote Sahara gas plant in an attempt to free dozens of foreign hostages held by militants with ties to Mali's rebel Islamists, UK and Japanese diplomats said, killing 35 hostages and 15 kidnappers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/algeria/9808799/Algeria-hostage-crisis-several-killed-in-air-strikes.html

They will claim they are not Muslims. It's shameful with SOOOO MUCH violence propagated and tied to Islam in some form of way. So, muslims are confused on how to respond - they either say the perpetrators are not muslims or they don't understand the Quran. Na wa ooooh!

In between, someone should remind Hallie27 to prove that Mary was 12 when she married Jesus.

benodic: unfortunately for islam, no one really cares about what a religion claims to be teaching if its ardent followers does exactly opposite of what the religion claims to teach. people will always watch what you do and not what you say.
give love and only love to all life and all will be well.

Gbam!

Hallie27: lolz......

So, are you going to address the claim you made?

Hallie27: lolz..really touched some nerves, didnt i? But would christ speak that way to someone? Are you sure you are really christlike? If thats the way they teach you in church to hurl insults and kill the integrity of people, then whats the difference btw you and the boko haram you are condemning?? Lolz....

Please address your claim that Mary was 12 years old when she married Joseph. Don't side step the question. Let us determine who the real HYPOCRITE is. By confirming actual factual historical records, it means I am insulting people? Sorry oh, I didn't know that your feelings were hurt. Telling the truth does hurt abi. I am to tell you the truth irrespective of your emotional feelings. My intention is not to insult, but if you are; that wasn't my intention - however, don't expect an apology. Ah, look at a Muslim teaching me Christian values oh! So, there is no difference btw me and BH abi? Again, you must have not eaten breakfast

plappville: Very shameful of you, you can't defend your claim, axactly how you present islam..SMH FOR YOU.

Even our own brother (Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab) that attempt bombing a plane was also not Islam teachings? liars..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar_Farouk_Abdulmutallab

He will tell you that it is not Islamic. History sure isn't agreeing with the tag team of skak and tintingz. I think they have a new comer - snakova

snakova: And who made the claim that jesus died and rose? was the bible not written years after the demise of christ? so how do we know its an accruate representation of the events that occurred during his lifetime? Some of the accounts may be accurate but not all of it, thats why the Quran was sent to confirm what was right and correct what had been corrupted, and furhter explain the unexpained. you can continue blindly worshipping your 'three gods in one', thats your own problem, but dont try to confuse the audience with your internet-inspired research. i dont understand how God can include 'songs of solomon' among his words, but i leave that for you to research, if indeed you seek only truth. the truth has and come and falsehood has perished, verily falsehood was bound to perish.

So, which Bible did Allah use when he quoted many verses of it in the Quran? You claim my Bible is corrupt and I worship 3 Gods. I thank God for my corrupt Bible because it is through it that I have received salvation of sin, it doesn't lead me to put on a bomb stripe vest and blow myself up killing innocent people. It is through it that I have a hope of eternal life (It doesn't promise me rivers of wine and 72 virgins in paradise). Since you know where the original Bible is (the one that is not corrupted), perhaps you can tell us where it is. Since the Quran was written before the foundations of the world, yet it quoted the Bible even then (the Bible wasn't written before the creation of the world, it never made such claim) - it makes me wonder what Bible the Quran keeps referring to. So, it seems you guys must know where the original is since we are using the "corrupt" and "fake" ones. Please refer me to it, I am sure Allah has kept it somewhere were we can refer to it.

I wouldn't even try to explain the trinity to you. Doing so will only make me physically tired . Again, all claims I made, I have made from the Quran and Hadith; no where else. What is falsehood is when someone says in a holy writ that the sun sets in a pool of water. Not only is it a scientific blunder, error, factual LIE - it is WRONG. Yet, you have to rescue the author of the Quran and Hadith because they don't know how to communicate well abi.

skak: As for 9/11, there is nothing to argue about it becouse is a subjective issue based on analysis and you have the right to agree or go against it. So, you can remain with your own view. Your is your and mine is mine,

If no one can change another on religious issue how do you thing subjective issue like this is going to work No more waste of time.

You can side step it all you want. Your view on 9/11 is not a religious issue. You can play pretend and avoid the question because of the obvious.

skak: As for 9/11, there is nothing to argue about it becouse is a subjective issue based on analysis and you have the right to agree or go against it. So, you can remain with your own view. Your is your and mine is mine,

If no one can change another on religious issue how do you thing subjective issue like this is going to work No more waste of time.

You can side step the question all you want. I will not assume what you meant but for the record, we know you are ASHAMED to admit your stand.

snakova: "There is a Hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud that has been brought up by some anti-Islamic polemicists.

The narration:

The narration along with the chain of narrators goes as;

Yazid bin Harun- Sufyan bin Husain- Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah- Ibrahim (b. Yazid al-Taymi)- Yazid al-Taymi- Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Hadith 3991)

Related narrations:

In Musnad Ahmad these words are part of a longer narration reported through same chain of narrators;

Abu Dharr narrated, “Once I was with the Prophet riding a donkey on which there was a saddle or a (piece of) velvet. That was at sunset. He said to me, ‘O Abu Dharr, do you know where this (sun) sets?’ I said, ‘Allah and His Messenger know better.’ He said, ‘It sets in a spring of murky water, (then) it goes and prostrates before its Lord, the Exalted in Might and the Ever-Majestic, under the Throne. And when it is time to go out, Allah allows it to go out and thus it rises. But, when He wants to make it rise where it sets, He locks it up. The sun will then say, “O my Lord, I have a long distance to run.” Allah will say, “Rise where you have set.” That (will take place) when no (disbelieving) soul will get any good by believing then.’” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 21459 al-Risala ed.)

This narration is quite similar to the narration found in many hadith works including Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim etc. except the words “It sets in a spring of warm water.”

In Sahih Bukhari it goes as;

Sufyan (al-Thawri)- Al-A’mash- Ibrahim (b. Yazid al-Taymi)- Yazid al-Taymi- Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38) (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

The significant difference is of the words “it sets in a spring of warm/murky water.”

Analysis of the chains of narrators:

From Abu Darr, it both ways i.e. with and without the words under consideration, it narrated by Yazid al-Taymi and from him by his son Ibrahim bin Yazid al-Taymi. From Ibrahim it is narrated by six different narrators;
1- Al-A’mash: And from him at least five people narrate it. See Sahih Bukhari etc.

2- Yunus bin ‘Ubaid: And from him at least three narrators report this narration. See Sahih Muslim etc.

3- Musa bin al-Musayyab al-Thaqafi: From him it is narrated by Abdah bin Sulayman, See Al-‘Uzmah of Abu al-Shaykh al-Asbahani 4/1189
4- Abdul A’la al-Taymi: The narrator down from him is Mis’ar, See Hilyah al-Awliya 5/89

5- Harun bin Sa’d: Abdul Ghaffar bin al-Qasim narrates from him. See Al-‘Uzmah of Abu al-Shaykh al-Asbahani 4/1191 and Al-Tabarani’s Mu’jam Al-Awst, Hadith 4470

6- Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah: The sole narrator down from him is Sufyan bin Husain, See Sunan Abu Dawud, Musnad Ahmad, Mustadrak al-Hakim, Musnad al-Bazzar etc.

Of all these various routes from Ibrahim bin Yazid al-Taymi, it is only through Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah that these words “It sets in a spring of warm water” are narrated.

In short, there are six narrators reporting the hadith from Ibrahim bin Yazid, and only one of them i.e. Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah quotes the particular words. And to add to the trouble there is again only one narrator down from him and he is Sufyan bin Husain whereas parallel to Sufyan there are at least eleven people narrating the hadith without these words on the authority of five different people narrating from Ibrahim bin Yazid.

The narration is anomalous (shaadh) and defective (mu’allal):

This fact alone is enough to make the narration dubious. No doubt both Al-Hakam and Sufyan are per se trustworthy narrators but because on their respective levels they go against much reliable and numerous narrators. Such a narration reported this way is termed as “shaadh” i.e. anomalous.

Carefully read the definition of anomalous (shaadh) hadith given by Ibn al-Salah (d. 643 A.H.) in his magnus opus, “Kitab Ma’rifat ‘anwa’ ‘ilm al-Hadith” translated under the title “An Introduction to the Science of Hadith”;

“… the anomalous hadith is the one which a reliable transmitter relates and which is in conflict with what other people relate.” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, Translated by Dr. Eerik Dickinson, Garnet Publishing Ltd. Berkshire 2006 p.57)

Also see the definition of defective (mu’allal) hadith given by Ibn Salah;

“A defective hadith is one in which a defect impugning its soundness is detected, although it outwardly appears to be free of the defect. That may apply to an isnad made up of reliable transmitters which outwardly seems to fulfill the conditions of soundness. Someone being alone in transmitting the hadith as well as others contradicting him aid in catching the defect.” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, p.67)

And when a report or a part of it becomes “shaadh” it ceases to be a sahih (sound) report. For this the definition of a “Sahih hadith” will help.

Hafiz Ibn Salah writes;

“The sahih (sound) hadith is a “supported” hadith (al-hadith al-musnad), the isnad of which coheres continuously through the transmission of one upright and accurate person from another up to its point of termination. The sound hadith can be neither anomalous (shaadh) nor defective (mu’allal),” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, p.5)

So merely being “sahih al-isnaad” is not enough for the report itself to be sahih.

Therefore, the very fact that Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah’s narrates differently from five other narrators reporting it on the authority of Ibrahim bin Yazid al-Taymi, makes the narration “shaadh” (anomalous) which is a kind of weak (da’if) reports.

But the trouble with the narration does not end here. Down from Al-Hakam bin ‘Utaybah, Sufyan bin Husain is also unique in narrating these words whereas the number of narrators down from narrators other than Al-Hakam narrating it from Ibrahim al-Taymi is at least eleven. There is not a single supporting narrator for Sufyan either.

Hafiz Al-Bazzar (d. 292 A.H.) after giving this narration writes;

“We do not know anyone other than Sufyan bin Husain reporting it through the chain: Al-Hakam bin ‘Utayba –Ibrahim- his father- Abu Dharr, while Yunus bin ‘Ubayd, Suleman Al-A’mash and Harun bin Sa’d have also narrated it from Ibrahim.” (Musnad Al-Bazzar- Bahr al-Zakhkhar, under Hadith 4010)

And this is important, not only because it adds more to the oddity of the narration, but also because Sufyan bin Husain though generally considered authentic was also criticized by few scholars. This criticism does not harm his general narrations but becomes significant when he goes out of the way and narrates what other narrators from the same original source do not.

Muhammad ibn Sa’d said about him: “He was reliable (but) he made many mistakes in his narrations.” (Tabaqat al-Kubra, Dar al-Kotob al-Ilmiyya, Beirut, 1990, vol.7 p.227 No. 3417)

Conclusion:

These details make it quite clear that according to rules of reporting it is not right to attribute these words to the Messenger of Allah- on him be the peace and blessings of Allah.

Apparently, the words from Qur’an 18:86 were confused and appended to the hadith that had no link to the ayah whatsoever. The narrator failed to understand the real significance of the verse and the hadith and for apparent semblance he confused the two.

The verse from the Holy Qur’an i.e. surah 18 ayah 86 is simply about how the sunset appeared to Zulqarnain and even the classical Muslim scholars understood it like that."
And as for your claim about our noble prophet's marriage, i dont see anything wrong in early marriage of a young girl, as long as she is mature enough to bear the responsibilities of motherhood. the jews of the old testament didn't see anything wrong with marrying girls as young as three, and no where in the new testament was it stated that a girl reach a particular age before marriage. what is known is that a girl be ascertained to be matured enough, and that depends on the time(age), location, and environmental conditions among others. that is why the marriage age was as low as ten in the US centuries ago,and there are reports of girls getting married at age 9. follow the links for more information. http://www.faqs.org/childhood/A-Ar/Age-of-Consent.html, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age#cite_note-Encyclopedia_of_Children_and_Childhood_in_History_and_Society.2C_A-Ar.2C_Age_of_Consent-1, http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230
may Allah continue to guide us all

This gentleman here claims this Hadith is defective (I wasn't the one that wrote it). However, if I show you many verses in the Quran where the author implies that the sun sets at a particular place, you will still tell me I an quoting out of context.

We all know the truth on this one. Defending it by saying your holy writs was erroneous doesn't do justice to it.

skak: If i understand you, the bible you are using is not the words of God like Qur'an but a translation of the word of God. Am i right?

I guess, that is why there is many ''OMMISIONS'' in the NIV compared to KJV. And still there are as many version as the number of stars in galaxy with no one in harmony with another.

If i were you, i would have provide my own version in such a way that it will suit me and my interest (becouse no one can prove my translation wrong unless he come along with the original book of God) rather than using other authors bias translation.

So, i suggest that you should be calling your bible ''AUTHORS' BOOK''

The Bible was written in Hebrew (old testament) and Greek (mainly the new testament). Unlike the Quran that claimed it was in Heaven before the creation of the world. I don't know know how to read Hebrew or Greek. So, how do I read Gods word? The Bible has been translsted in many languages i.e. French, Arabic, Hausa, Spanish etc. So, if a verse is longer in Spanish, than it is in Portuguese, does that mean it contradicts itself? NO!. The message and theme of the Bible is the SAME. 2 Peter 1:21 tells us that "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost."

I will not step out and start comparing the same with the Quran like most people here do. However, if the Quran is written in English for it's English audience. Does that mean it is different from the Arabic version? Does that change the message and theme of the Quran?

Afam4eva: From my first sentence you can deduce that i was referring to Nigeria. Don't compare Nigeria with America. There's poverty in the land and the first thing in people's head is money and more money.

Afam4eva -I wasn't trying to say otherwise. If you write software as a profession, then by all means - it makes sense. However, the deep desire to solve problems with technology has always lead to amazing software whether in Africa or America. For example, look at this tool from Kenya - http://ushahidi.com/

skak - You had mentioned earlier that 9/11 was a plot by the US to invade the Middle East. I asked you to clarify and you haven't. Can you please explain what you meant.

Afam4eva: A programmer can only be as good as his environment. The aim of the programmer is to develop a software that he can sell easily and make his money(this is the motivating factor of most programmers).

I don't agree. Linus didn't write the Linux OS for money. The benevolent dictator "Guido van Rossum" didn't write the python programming language for money either. Some programmers solve problems using better approach and better way of doing things. As a result, innovation occurs and good software comes out. So, it is not always about money. In the open-source world, it's about solving problems.

skak: Thank you brother for the advice. I thought the same from the beginning, you ask him several question but still no even a single answer from him and still he cannot answer mine too but pretending like he didnt understand the question.

But i think is important for us to make him understand muslim stands with bible and Jesus.

To all christians in this forum.

Every muslim fully respect these books as words of Allah SWT i.e Az-zabura of Dawud (David), At-taura of Musa (Moses), Al-injila of Isa (Jesus) and Al-qur'an of Muhammad (Mohammed) and muslims believe that all these prophets are sent by Allah.

The difference is that muslim did not believe that jesus is either a God or son of God. And that, this book you are using (bible) is not a true representative of Injila which was originally sent with prophet Isa. And beside, every divine scripture has its own target people and time period (i.e when another prophet arrived people will adopt and replace the old scripture with the new one). After Moses, it was Jesus and after Jesus, it was Muhammad. Jesus was sent to Jews but jews rejected him and try to alter his book as well as dismantling some of his followers which are now known as christian (the term christian was giving by jewish not by Jesus - is not in the bible) while, Muhammad was sent to the whole world but Jews and christians rejected him.

All thanks be to Allah SWT for giving us the ability to answer all all the questions giving to us on this forum as well as proven to the Authenticity of Qur'a. May Allah reward us for our good doing and forgive us for any error we might have done through out our discussions.

I'm also done. Alhamdulillah, Alhamdulillah, Alhamdulillah.

skak - I never said I wasn't going to answer your question. I wanted the playing ground to be the same in regards asking questions. If I asked you one question, you should ask me one back. I never did beat around the bush. As a programmer, we are detailed and always ask for specifics.

Jesus died, rose and was bodily seen 600 years before the advent of Muhammed, the Quran, Hadith or Islam. Yet Islam denies His deity. You claim you don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God or the Messiah and that the Bible is corrupted. Yet, your Quran takes so many lessons from the Bible and venerates the Bible. I wonder what Bible your Quran was referring to if it is corrupt.

[b]Like I always said - you can believe in ANYTHING. Any fool can make a rule and every fool will follow him. You can believe in a STONE and worship it. Christians don't have a problem with that. Just don't take that STONE and throw it at us. In summary, preach the message of "peace" and "non violence" that you have been propagating on this forum to your brothers in Boko Haram - they need it, not us and while you are doing it, ask them what version of Quran they are reading so we can know where the violence they are propagating is coming from. You don't need to tell Christians about peace, we live it, we are taught by our Saviour how to be peaceful, his life was peaceful. He never raided anyone, never killed anyone, never married 11 wives or 6 year old girls. His life is an example not only to Christians but to all. So, if you don't want to believe in Him, that is your choice. We have done as instructed, we have told you about Him. With that, I pray for you and I pray that all will be well with you. I pray that you will be blessed in health, wealth and in your spirit. Peace [/b]

tintingz: bro...stop wasting your time replying him, he is just looking for a way to insult and not ready to know the truth about Islam

What will I gain from insults? Whatever I have said, I have BACKED it up. I rather learn the truth about Islam from the prophet Mohammed himself using the Quran and the Hadith than from you.

Hallie27: you are such a huge hypocrite, you know..why dont you have anything to say about mary been married at the age of twelve, and you are dwelling on something else? If he says he cant give his six year old to be married, its not because it is wrong, its cos our society is so upside down today what is normal seems abnormal in peoples eyes and vice versa,thats why you see people liking semi naked gals pics and hissing at ladies that cover themselves well. Maybe xtianity allows and support the imoralities happening in the society today, but sorry to disappoint you that islam does not support that. In the society today, primary school girls and boys also have boyfrnds and girlfrnds, losing their virginities in their parents backyards, and you are saying '...does not mean maturity...' better be realistic and face the bitter truth.. Is that the kind of life you will prefer for your own daughter instead?? Moreover, Islam encourages us to adhere to the rules of wherever we find ourselves provided it does not make us go against the worship of God. Maybe you havent noticed, but Nigeria is a secular state, with her own laid down rules and regulations, so if we decide to play by not marrying out our six year old daughters for now, i dont think its a big deal. Answer the questions you re been asked and stop beating about the bush.

Since you have proof that Mary was 12 when she married, go ahead and prove it - I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE THAT. Don't go quoting some website oh, quote the Bible and tell us where it said Mary the mother of Jesus was 12 years old when she married Joseph. You open your mouth wide without any proof yet call me a HYPOCRITE that provided proof from your own HADITH.

Not only that, you jump to another topic suggesting that Christianity support immorality. LOL - I am tired and have been working most of the day, so I will ignore you for now. Here you go again talking about how Islam encourages you to adhere to the rules of where ever you are and Nigeria is a secular State. Tell that to your brothers in Boko Haram, are they not trying to impose Sharia in Northern Nigeria or abi is it Christians that are killing people and bombing churches up north? You talk as if you haven't eaten breakfast for a week. If you want to cover yourself and dress like a masquerade - that is your prerogative, not mine.

Whether he gives his 6 year old daughter to marry an Alhaji or doesn't - it is his cup of tea. History and the record shows, the prophet Mohammed married a child of 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9. If you see where Jesus did that in the Bible - then you can open your mouth and talk about morals.

I have answered your muslim brothers.

Hallie27: PS: and for your information, If the QUR'AN says it,THEN IT IS CORRECT.
I am also done with discussing with you, like the Qur'an says,' for you is your religion, and for me is mine',may Allah forgive me and my muslim brothers for any sin we might have comitted chatting with you, and may the light of Islam never dim in our hearts, Amin...
Sorry, we didnt ask to be muslims,we just got lucky!!!

Backward mentality - As if God didn't give you brain to reason.

skak: I'm still waiting for your answer about the VARIATION in your bibles. This is only what i want to know for now.

I will put your question in bold for emphasis:

Is bible really a words of God? If yes, then why is there a variation between different versions of bibles. Bible versions shows that they are really not the same. Some leave out entire verses, others disagree on whether Jesus should be called God's servant or God's Son.

The King James Version (KJV) is an English translation of the Bible made in 1611 at the order of King James I and still widely used today. The New International Version (NIV) is a completely original translation of the Bible developed by more than one hundred scholars working from the same available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.

The reason I am explaining this is so you can see that they are not two different Bible, the texts and interpretations are the same. KJV has an old English flavor today and NIV has a simpler 20th century English equivalent. So, to think they are different Bibles is not accurate. Research shows that on an average, students in the 12th grade understand KJV compared to students in the 7th and 8th grade that easily understand the NIV.

Your confusion here is that King James Version and the New International Version of the Bible are different and not the same and as a result, Christians have more than one Bible. Your confusion here is why some verses appear to be shorter in NIV as compared to KJV. For example, in the KJV, John 6:47 reads, "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." In modern translations, the same verse reads, "He who believes has eternal life, "with the words "on me" left out. This is the same from several of the verses you quoted as examples. These differences between the KJV and modern translations (in this case NIV) are due to translation differences, THEY DO NOT MEAN THE THERE ARE DIFFERENT BIBLES. The message and theme of the Bible is consistent and the same.

The purpose of the KJV translators was to produce a translation that was understood in the common language of the day 1611. That is also a driving force behind many of the modern translations i.e. NIV - 1966

That been said, where there differences/emphasis in translations from the original Bible manuscript, possibly. I can't tell, I wasn't there in 1611 and 1966 when they were been translated. However, the THEME and MESSAGE in the Bible is the SAME whether it is KJV or NIV. I hope that answers your question.

tintingz: ^^suit yourself...you are not ready to know the truth about Islam you only want to argue and find a way to insult Islam...you even go to the lenght to insult me...your word:

And jumping from one topic to another

Btw you have not even answer the question i asked about the 'sun setting' i quoted from the bible buh you keep on loading me with more questions that have been answered by many Islamic scholars... Now you try to bring up another topic 'wife beating' i wont reply you again if you are not ready to know the bout Islam

Am done here until you re-construct your brain-washed thinking

You sure are done here my friend! Your only line of defense is that if the Quran says it, then by all means it must be correct. Yet, you are not willing to give your 6 year old to a 50 year old muslim man but you support your prophet in doing the same. Yet, I am the one with the brain-washed thinking; ironic isn't it. I entertained you to see if you will add any substance to the topic but so far, http://www.discoveringislam.org has been your only source of research. I find it strange that a student of the Quran can't intelligently read his Hadith and Quran and need websites to prove his point.

When I asked you about the prophet marrying a 6 year old. Your defense was, "Hey - they do it everywhere in the arab and jewish world, so if our prophet did it, there is nothing wrong" Or "even in America, it is done". I still ask you - if they do it in America or on the moon, does that make it right? I want you to see your line of reasoning, how flawed and lacking it is. It hurts my heart but I will continue to pray for you.

skak: so you are now dictating to me what i should ask you. Look if you dont know the answer just confess. This is usual and indeed as i expected.
Let me ask you once again: WHY ISAH THERE A VARIATION WITHIN YOUR BIBLES?? And don't tell me there is no variation becouse i gave you enough references.

I am not dictating to you what you should ask. You quoted passages from Luke, Matthew, Corinthians and John. I am asking that we address one before we move to another. If you want us to handle the passage in Luke, then let us handle it. That is all I asked and suggested.

tintingz: ^^suit yourself...you are not ready to know the truth about Islam you only want to argue and find a way to insult Islam...you even go to the lenght to insult me...your word:

And jumping from one topic to another

Btw you have not even answer the question i asked about the 'sun setting' i quoted from the bible buh you keep on loading me with more questions that have been answered by many Islamic scholars... Now you try to bring up another topic 'wife beating' i wont reply you again if you are not ready to know the bout Islam

Am done here until you re-construct your brain-washed thinking

You claimed Jesus encourage wife beating, so I asked you to back it up for us to see - I wasn't digressing. I didn't see the part you talked about sun setting in the Bible, if you don't mind; can you re-post it.

Brain washed thinking you say, LOL. I am not the one that claims if it's in the Quran then no matter what I find out - it doesn't matter. I am objective and willing to research no matter if it comes from the Bible or any other thing I believe in.

tintingz: of all the links i brought out you are still arguing about it?

If you like accept or dont accept all i know is that the Quran said when a girl reach puberty or of age she is ok for marriage...some scholars said that Aisha(ra) was 12 to 15 above before she got married

http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm

And further more Jehovah never condemn child marriage neither Jesus(as) didnt condemn it but said the believers should stick to the law before him(christianity is not from Jesus christ)...Jesus never show any example of any marriage nor talked about marriage so how do we know when a girl is ready for marriage
Jesus even encourage beating hope you know that but Quran never alow wife beating, the verse only said 'to tap' buh i know you wont agree with me and i will not argue with you on this...

About given my young daughter to a cleric...our society have changed long ago so how do you expect me to do such thing here What do you think the people will call me

Can u plz show us the scripture where Jesus encouraged wife beating? So, u are saying the Quran doesn't say muslim men should beat their wives but tap them? If I show u in the hadith or Quran were it teaches wives should be beaten, would u accept it?

So, u wouldn't give your daughter to a cleric but u support a prophet that marries 6 year olds?

U must be daft, puberty doesn't mean she is mature, that is why people can't believe such teachings will come from a good God. Aisha was 6 years old when Mohammed married her. Would u marry a 6 year old?

Your response was, as long as the Quran says it is right, then it must be right. U no get brain?.

Again, stop quoting from websites. U are a Muslim, search the Quran and the Hadith and provide explanation from them

skak: Thanks for the correction it is indeed spell dodge. I wish you understand your bible just like the way you understand spelling. I would have like it more if to say the correction came from the mentioned contradiction in your bible

I was only citing examples that will back my point but what i was asking you is clearly stated; why is there a variation between the so called words of God from various versions of your bibles.

Skak, you cited several verses, please choose one verse, quote it, and from the verse ask your question.

tintingz: @alexis

In keeping
with Jewish custom, the
betrothal would have taken place when she was around 12, and the birth of Jesus about a year later.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)


-- Joseph, Mary's
husband, was "90 years old"
when he married 12 to 14-year old Mary!

Joseph was a much older
man. therefore Mary was
younger than 11-14 years of
age when she was
"BETHROED" to Joseph. We
Muslims would never call
Joseph a Child Molester, nor
would we refer to the "Holy
Ghost" of the Bible, that
"Impregnated" Mary as a
"Rapist" or "Adulterer".


According to the Priest of
Saint Mary's Catholic Church:
"Mary was approximately 14
years old when she got
pregnant with Jesus. Joseph,
Mary's Husband is believed to
be around 36. Mary was only
13 when she married Joseph.
When she first was arranged
with Joseph she was between
7 to 9 years old."


According to the "Oxford
Dictionary Bible"
commentary, Mary (peace be
upon her) was was 12 years
old when she became
impregnated.
www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37462

The whole thing about age 3 is a technicality's technicality. Withregards to certain laws, activity below the age of 3 does not affect her halachic status (for instance, a woman still has the halachic full status of "virginity" no matter what happened to her before age 3). [Lawyers' note: any sort of child abuse is halachically, legally, and morallywrong, and will be punished by G-d and state.] Sexual relations can only change her halachic status starting with age 3; hence, if a father agreed to marry off his young daughter byrelations (violating two Talmudic taboos, above), the minimum age at which such an act would take effect would be 3 THE JEW LAW(TALMUD) ALLOW MEN MARRYING A 3YR OLD BABY
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4751/apologetics-for-marriage-at-3-years-old


Common to all wedding ceremonies is the concept of transitioning between childhood and adulthood. In many African cultures children are encouraged to marry as young as 13 to 15 years of age, assoon as they have reached physical adulthood.
http://www.worldweddingtraditions.com/locations/african_traditions.html


Child marriage and child betrothal customs occur in various times and places, wherebychildren are given in matrimony - before marriageable age as defined by the commentator and often before puberty. Today suchcustoms are fairly widespread in parts of Africa , Asia , Oceania and South America : in former times it occurred also in Europe. It is frequently associated with arranged marriage . In some casesonly one marriage-partner is a child, usually the female, due to importance placed upon female virginity , the perceived inability of women to work for money and towomen's shorter reproductive liferelative to men's. An increase in the advocacy of human rights , whether as women's rights or as children's rights , has caused traditions of child marriage to decrease in many areas. In 2011, The Elders formed Girls Not Brides, a global partnership of more than 190 non-governmentalorganisations committed to addressing child marriage.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage


I think this links are enough for you to know that it is a culture thing in the old time...even in America and Europe it happens before...so you cant judge the arabs nor jews for child marriage cuz it their culture even here in africa

So what are you(we) saying?

Stop saying it is cultural, it is not cultural in Christianity. We don't marry 6 year olds neither do we marry infants and allow old men to touch and molest them. We don't touch and molest infants. Our holy book don't teach us to beat women either. You keep STEPPING out of the Quran and Hadith to answer the questions; and I keep telling you that those are the only books we should use because they are the only AUTHORITATIVE source to use.

skak: you want to dolge? I told you before, you cant answer my question. If you like, invite the pastor of your church still the question will remain unanswered. And this is just a minor becouse there are many tough more to come.

First of all, it is spelled dodge and not dolge. I am not dodging anything skak. I am asking you to level the playing field. I asked you one question and I am asking that you do the same. I didn't ask you 10 questions and asked you to clarify from the Quran, I asked ONLY ONE. So, go ahead and ask me one and then later you can ask me as many as you want but we will address them in a timely manner one question at a time.

tintingz: @alexis

In keeping
with Jewish custom, the
betrothal would have taken place when she was around 12, and the birth of Jesus about a year later.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)


-- Joseph, Mary's
husband, was "90 years old"
when he married 12 to 14-year old Mary!

Joseph was a much older
man. therefore Mary was
younger than 11-14 years of
age when she was
"BETHROED" to Joseph. We
Muslims would never call
Joseph a Child Molester, nor
would we refer to the "Holy
Ghost" of the Bible, that
"Impregnated" Mary as a
"Rapist" or "Adulterer".


According to the Priest of
Saint Mary's Catholic Church:
"Mary was approximately 14
years old when she got
pregnant with Jesus. Joseph,
Mary's Husband is believed to
be around 36. Mary was only
13 when she married Joseph.
When she first was arranged
with Joseph she was between
7 to 9 years old."


According to the "Oxford
Dictionary Bible"
commentary, Mary (peace be
upon her) was was 12 years
old when she became
impregnated.
www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37462

The whole thing about age 3 is a technicality's technicality. Withregards to certain laws, activity below the age of 3 does not affect her halachic status (for instance, a woman still has the halachic full status of "virginity" no matter what happened to her before age 3). [Lawyers' note: any sort of child abuse is halachically, legally, and morallywrong, and will be punished by G-d and state.] Sexual relations can only change her halachic status starting with age 3; hence, if a father agreed to marry off his young daughter byrelations (violating two Talmudic taboos, above), the minimum age at which such an act would take effect would be 3 THE JEW LAW(TALMUD) ALLOW MEN MARRYING A 3YR OLD BABY
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4751/apologetics-for-marriage-at-3-years-old


Common to all wedding ceremonies is the concept of transitioning between childhood and adulthood. In many African cultures children are encouraged to marry as young as 13 to 15 years of age, assoon as they have reached physical adulthood.
http://www.worldweddingtraditions.com/locations/african_traditions.html


Child marriage and child betrothal customs occur in various times and places, wherebychildren are given in matrimony - before marriageable age as defined by the commentator and often before puberty. Today suchcustoms are fairly widespread in parts of Africa , Asia , Oceania and South America : in former times it occurred also in Europe. It is frequently associated with arranged marriage . In some casesonly one marriage-partner is a child, usually the female, due to importance placed upon female virginity , the perceived inability of women to work for money and towomen's shorter reproductive liferelative to men's. An increase in the advocacy of human rights , whether as women's rights or as children's rights , has caused traditions of child marriage to decrease in many areas. In 2011, The Elders formed Girls Not Brides, a global partnership of more than 190 non-governmentalorganisations committed to addressing child marriage.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage


I think this links are enough for you to know that it is a culture thing in the old time...even in America and Europe it happens before...so you cant judge the arabs nor jews for child marriage cuz it their culture even here in africa

So what are you(we) saying?

There you go again quoting links (Use your own Quran and Hadith to answer) and trying to justify the obvious. I asked you a simple question but you keep shooting yourself in the foot. Will you give your infant baby girl to a muslim cleric to marry and molest? I dey still wait your answer