₦airaland Forum

F00028: that's a nice switch

I said it before, I'll say it again:

sigh... nl xtians are all alike. methods may differ: self righteous indignation, putting words in people's mouths, false accusations, false claims, fabrications, etc but once I see y'all congregating and patting each other on the back, I know y'all been stumped!

Dude, answer the simple question. I didn't switch, you keep biting your tongue - it appears English is not your first language. How was the Book revealed to Mohammed Oh!. You are yet to tell us where the original Bible is since the one we have is corrupt. You are yet to tell us HOW god informed Mohammed about the Torah and Zabur. You said it was revealed but later said god INFORMED Mohammed. Oya - the ball is in your court. How did god inform Mohammed?

The question "How" is asking about the medium. You said god informed him. How did he do it? How did the information get to him? What medium did god use to inform him?

Did he read it or was it revealed?

We know god informed him, you have made that clear - HOW? Through revelation or ...............

F00028: you should get someone to translate that for you
peace.

You said God saw it fit to inform your prophet about the Torah and Zabur. I then asked you:

alexis: How did this God inform the prophet of the Torah and Zabur? History said the prophet was unlearned and an illiterate and couldn't read. How did he come about them?

F00028 - same way he revealed to him the Quran

If you can read English, I asked you "How" did god inform your prophet of the Torah & Zabur?. You answer on how god informed him was that it was revealed to him the same way the Quran was revealed.

Either you are playing stupi.d or playing pretend. You have successfully shot yourself in the foot F00028.

F00028: sigh... nl xtians are all alike. methods may differ: self righteous indignation, putting words in people's mouths, false accusations, false claims, fabrications, etc but once I see y'all congregating and patting each other on the back, I know y'all been stumped!

You stumped on yourself several times. Your own words are evidence that can't keep track or what you said or when you said it. See Below ....

I SWEAR YOU ARE THE SHAMELSS LIAR
where did I say the Torah and the Zabur were
revelations of the Prophet Muhammad?

Are these not your words?

[b]alexis: How did this God inform the prophet of the Torah and Zabur? History said the prophet was unlearned and an illiterate and couldn't read. How did he come about them?

F00028 - same way he revealed to him the Quran

Oh Boy! Please defend your statement. You said you didn't say the Torah and the Zabur were revelations of the Prophet Muhammad. Your earlier statement read - F00028 - same way he revealed to him the Quran

I SWEAR YOU ARE THE SHAMELSS LIAR
where did I say the Torah and the Zabur were
revelations of the Prophet Muhammad?

Are these not your words?

alexis: How did this God inform the prophet of the Torah and Zabur? History said the prophet was unlearned and an illiterate and couldn't read. How did he come about them?

F00028 - same way he revealed to him the Quran

Weren't those your words F00028?

Saksreal: JIHAD is a Term often misunderstood and associated with radical militants. The arabic word is wrongly misinterpretated as "Holy War", although there is no such thing in islam. Holy war is something undertaken to forcibly subject others to certain religious doctrines, which is forbidden in Islam.

The arabic word "Jihad" means a struggle or striving and applies to any great effort on the personal and social level. It is striving to do good and remove injustice and evil from oneself and the society. This exertion of effort can be spiritual, economic, social or political. For example, one of the highest level of Jihad is to stand before a tyrant and speak a word of truth. Restraining oneself from wrongdoing is also a form of Jihad. It is a broad concept that includes opposing evil inclinations within oneself, opposing injustice through peaceful means, efforts to improve the quality of life in a society as well as the striving by military forces on a battlefield in defence of the community or oppressed people. Jihad is not synonymus with war and it certainly does not involve terrorism. Armed Jihad is not an option for muslim individuals or groups and can only be declared by the muslim head of state. Moreover it must never be fought for wordly gain, conquest or revenge. Muslims may only engage in battle to protect people's lives, properties and freedom.


Jihad has conditions of restraint that distinguishes it from any other kind of warfare. They can be summarised as follows.

** Muslims must not begin hostilities. They must strive for peace as much as possible.
** All treaties and agreements must be observed as long as the enemy observes them.
** Muslims must fight only those who fight against them; non-combatants are not to be harmed.
** Weapons of mass destruction must never be used and collective punishment is strictly prohibited.
** Self-defense is not considered jihad if muslims are striking back in revenge.
** Hostilities should be ended as soon as the other party is inclined to peace

Thanks for sharing this post; I like it very much. I think you covered only two forms of Jihad and not the 3rd one.

1. Personal Jihad - Jihad against self i.e. It is striving to do good and remove injustice and evil from oneself and the society
2. Protecting oneself and family - If someone evades your house or property or land. You have the right to defend yourself. I support this.

However, you failed to mention the 3rd type of Jihad, the offensive one. This goes contrary to your claim Muslims must not begin hostilities. Is there an Offensive Jihad as taught in the Quran or Hadiths?

dansmog++:
thank you to all the faithful christ followers who really defended the gospel here.. From alexis to plappville to proo212..... I have decided not to continue posting any comment after i have given F00028 facts, points and reference but he wont accept it... Thank you all for this lovely backing of the word of God.

The Gospel and the Bible has been criticized, called all sorts of things yet it STILL stands today. We don't defend it BUT we don't let others LIE about it either. Our defense is exposing lies about it. I thank God for his Grace and Mercy upon all of us. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to work on the heart of man but it's our duty to tell others about the good news.

plappville: Great job. This OP must be regretting the day he created this thread...

We now know some hadiths are weak in order to protect ISLAM.

It appears even his Muslim Brothers (Shiites) must be using Weak Hadiths . He said the Torah and Psalms were REVEALED to Mohammed. NA WA OOOH!

snakova: Jesus (AS) is the son of God? yes ma. God did some intimate things to Mary (AS)? yes ma. A man fought with God and survived? yes ma. God needs some virgins saved for Himself? yes ma. There are three Gods in one? yes ma. I rather be heathen than worship that toothless judeo-christian god, whose followers have to resort to juju to prove the potency of their beliefs. At least the hindus have some powerful beings they are worshipping, not some powerless whimp that cant even save himself from a bunch of measly humans. If the whole fallacy was true, why did he have to shout 'Eli Eli lamabathachani'? what happens to the still born child, or better yet the child that barely had a few breaths of air? is he also a sinner condemned to hell cos his ancestors committed a sin? As for the holy prophet (SAW), history would remember him as the greatest man that lived on earth, and with God he is the most loved, like it or not. Just one question, if islam is not a religion of peace, then which is? christianity That blood sucking, baby-seeking judeo-christian god religion? Stop your internet based research and seek out the truth if ye are indeed interested in your salvation. otherwise, continue chasing shadows and decieving yourself, for in the end you would only have yourself to blame.

Omo, you can worship a STONE for all you want. JUST DON'T THROW IT AT OTHERS. No one is forcing you to be a Christian. Tell your brothers in northern Nigeria (Boko Haram) to leave Christians alone.

ha...ha...ha...
you can find find an online Qur'an but you can't find an online catholic bible? really?
then I can't help you.

and I didn't say 77! ...that's sneaky

Again, please reference one. My bad, I didn't mean to type 77. 7 books less and 7 books more was all over the place

same way he revealed to him the Quran

STOP LYING ON THIS ONE BRO. The Torah and Zabur was never revealed to Mohammed. These were Jewish laws/writings existing hundreds of years before Mohammed came into the picture. Again, history is not your friend here.

the Qur'an is not supposed to be a biography of Jesus Christ

IT MENTIONED HIM 97 TIMES. Yet it didn't cover the most important aspects of his life and death. Again, history is not on your side.

oh I doubt that very much

I accept the challenge. Open another thread and we will address it.

oh that's because all your criticisms of Islam are always based on fabrications, weak narrations or defective reasoning

Indeed, the fabrications are from the Quran itself. It contradicts itself so much that it needs you to defend it. As if the author couldn't make things clear from the beginning.

thats their problem.

Actually not. They are Muslims too; aren't they? Are they fabricating, using weak narrations or defective reasoning? These are not even Christians claiming YOUR QURAN is wrong; these are your muslims brothers. Oh, I forgot, what sect of Islam are you associated with. That might make all the difference.

what do you want from me, men?
I said
you can't verify that?
you want me send you copies??

Dude, when you talk about any material - you should reference it. At least the 77 books should have an online version. Something at least we can refer to. I can find the online Quran. Can you reference the 77 books. Something to verify your claim. Is that too much to ask?

OF COURSE I THINK IT IS
and so does Jeremiah.

Can you tell us where we can find the one the is not corrupt? Or the one that author of the Quran quoted from?

the Prophet didn't get them. The Torah was given to Moses, the Zabur was given to David (peace be upon them). God sees it fit to inform him of the contents.

How did this God inform the prophet of the Torah and Zabur? History said the prophet was unlearned and an illiterate and couldn't read. How did he come about them?

the Author of the Quran created Jesus so of course He would know

Apparently the author of the Quran doesn't know much about Jesus Christ of history. The "Jesus" of the Quran has no cross. He never died and therefore did not resurrect. While there are over 43 beautiful illustrative parables in the Gospel accounts, the "Jesus" of the Quran spoke not one parable. The beautiful Sermon on the Mount is absent in the Quran. Perhaps the author of the Quran is talking about another "Jesus" because it knows very little about Jesus Christ in history. The Quranic "Jesus" is a "Jesus" who receives a query in heaven for allowing people to worship him as God. We see this "Jesus" trembling before God, denying a claim of his deity. For reference check Surah 5:116. Such a "Jesus" is not the Jesus Christ of history. He is a personal imagination of the author of the Quran.However, the Jesus in the Quran is still born of the Virgin Mary, is blessed by God (Surah 43:61,63; 19:30) and is strengthened by the Holy Spirit (Surah 2:253). He is the Word of God, knowing the unknown. He spoke in the cradle (a story taken from a book of fables) - Surah 3:46; 5:110. He healed the lepers and raised the dead and created a bird (Surah 3:49, 5:110).

A sincere Muslim will realize that even in the Quran Jesus is more than a prophet. He is mentioned 97 times, to Muhammeds 25. Jesus is the only sinless man in the Quran (Surah 19:19). Adam sinned (Surah 2:36; 7:22-23). Abraham sinned (Surah 26:82). Moses sinned (Surah 28:15-16). Jonah sinned (Surah 37:142). David sinned (Surah 38:24-25). Muhammed constantly asked for forgiveness of his own personal sins (Surah 33:36-38; 47:19; 48:1-2).No muslim can know the real Jesus except he/she studies the Bible. From the Bible, you will see clearly a 30 year old man who in 3 years of ministry, changed the course of man's history forever. He didn't even use ONE sword. How can the author of the Quran have created Jesus when in it, all the major aspects of Christ's life and teaching are missing?. The author probably created another "Jesus", I can tell you confidently, it's not the Jesus Christ that Christians believe in.

The editor of the Hadith says:

"The Quran is the greatest wonder among the wonders of the world. It repeatedly challenged the people of the world to bring a chapter like it, but they failed and the challenge remains unanswered up to this day". For reference, please check - Mishkat'ul Masabih, Vol3, p.664. I hope you wouldn't claim this Hadith is defective or weak.The Quran could indeed be a wonder to the 7th century Arabs because of the illiteracy of the people of Arabia at the time. Unfortunately, we are not in 7th century Arabia. It's the same wonder that the Quran claim and confused the 7th century Arabians with "wonders" that the sun sets in a pool of warm water. To the primitive Arabs, this was a fantastic revelation from Allah, the all-knowing and it was proof of Muhammed's prophet-hood. So, the author of the Quran may have created another "Jesus"; definitely not Jesus Christ in history

you cant prove that conclusively using the Bible either, alexis.

Of Jesus life, death and resurrection? Yes I can.

I have already explained this you.

You swept it under the carpet. However, it doesn't matter to me. I have made my point.

you mean the story of the goat?
the hadith you quoted from ibn Majah is what is known as 'daif'- defective, weak.
the stonning verses was never meant to be part of the Quran because the Prophet never instructed it be written down as part of the Qur'an even when he was asked by his scribes, and Aisha had already said in a hadith that is not daif, that the verse had been abrogated.

WOW, that is the only thing I can say. Whenever Muslims are faced with HARD FACTS; it is always the "Weak Hadith" that comes to the rescue.

so goat or no goat nothing was lost

Omo, you can dispute it or ignore it. However, Shiite Muslims have also consistently alleged that portions of even the present Quran are wrong. These are the areas where they believe the Quran is speaking of Ali or their beliefs concerning the authority and succession of Imams. Shiite books that allege that the present Quran circulating among muslims are grossly corrupted include:

1. The Mirror of the Minds - By Al-Majlisi
2. The Corruption - By Ahmad Ibn Muhammad
3. Corruption And Substitution - By Muhammad Ibn Hassan Al-Sairafi
4. The Abridgment on the Corruption of the Book of the Lord of Lords - By Imam Al-Nuri

Other Shi'ite scholars who have conclusively established the case of corruption of the present Quran. Again, history is not on your side

which of two books have you never seen or can't you get your hands on?

"Christian Bibles range from the sixty-six
books of the Protestant canon to the
eighty-one books of the Ethiopian
Orthodox Church canon..."
feel free to visit the fountain of all human knowledge for the rest. yes, wikipedia!

Maybe when I quoted the Surahs from the Quran, I asked to to check wikipedia! Again, you made the claim; the burden of proof is on you.

so, that's how your mind works?

Again, totally side-stepping the question and not providing a direct answer. I will ask you again - DO YOU CLAIM THE BIBLE WE HAVE TODAY IS CORRUPT OR NOT?

Hahahaha, your ignorance or sheer determination to stretch the obvious is interesting.
Surah 5:45 confirms to the Prophet Muhammad a law God had already given specifically to the Prophet Moses in the T O R A H not the "Bible".
Surah 21:105 relates to him a piece of scripture revealed to the Prophet David specifically contained in the Z A B U R (eng., Psalms) not the "Bible".
the "Bible" is collection of books written over centuries by many different authors some of which are anonymous

The TORAH and ZABUR, where did your prophet get them from?

I dont see "Bible" anywhere.
remember, this was your claim:
alexis: The Quran itself testifies that
the Bible is the Word of God.

Where was the birth, life and death of Jesus recorded? Where did the author of the Quran know about Jesus?

those are your own words

Nope, not mine - the Bible! Jesus died, buried and rose from the grave over 600 years before the advent of Islam. He was seen by many witnesses. I don't need Islam permission to tell me other-wise. If you want to get confuse about it, that is your choice. You just can't deny history.

hey, you tried to front, got busted- live with it.

Busted? you don't say. Most people can't read Arabic, so whether the Quran written in arabic as the original text and then translated to their native language doesn't prove anything. I pointed out that two versions of your SAME Quran written in arabic, had two different words meaning two different things. So, telling us the presence of the original text provides authenticity to the Quran proves nothing.

I see you totally ignored the section about the portion of the Quran that were never added to the "Authorized Version" of the Quran

Yes, Nigerian Police abhor extra-judicial killing
A Christian did felt strongly enough to open this thread. Where is the thread on violence by non-muslims. Or the victims don't feel pain?

I don't understand your statement about Nigerian police, perhaps you can clarify. This is a public forum, anyone can talk about anything. The poster wants to talk about the issue in Mali and West Africa. Islamic militants are imposing sharia on people in Mali (that is no news). If you want to talk about violence to non muslims, nothing is stopping you from opening your own thread; just back it up with facts.

So how does that justify the imbalance in your position
Christians believe should be informed and opened a thread about what goes on in a Muslim country
They should begin what they have started and inform us about violence everywhere

It is not our duty to inform you about violence everywhere, I am sure you have aljazeera to do that. It is our duty to freely talk about violence against Christians by jihadist i.e. Boko Haram for example.

Really?
Abhoring violence done by Christians in your mind
But posting to condemn violence by muslim extremist on NL
Which one of us is playing politics?

Omo, you can open a thread and talk about any topic under the sun. You can claim that Christians are killing muslims as well; no one is stopping you if you can back it up with facts. I will CONDEMN killing of Christians by Muslims everywhere EVEN WHEN YOU REFUSE TO DO SO. You continuous SILENCE to condemn the killings of Christians in Northern Nigeria or elsewhere yet justifying it by stating that there are violence against Muslims is STUPID to say the least. If you condemn VIOLENCE then just say it.

When will you take a stand and condemn the consistent rape in Christian dominated DR Congo
When will you open a thread
When will you open a thread on the LRA forcing children to fight
When will you take a stand against the NLFT in India

I CHALLENGE YOU to open the thread. Tell us where Christians are rap.ing Muslims in DR Congo or where the government there is trying to establish a Christian State. Open your thread about LRA and NLFT and let us talk about it. Until you DO, stop telling us your brothers can kill Christians in Northern Nigeria and Mali yet we CAN'T talk because there is violence elsewhere. Rubbish!

is it seven books more or seven books less?

It is your claim, not mine. You tell us since you have "both" books with you

then talk to them. i didn't say any thing about any "ORIGINAL" Bible

.

So, you are claiming that the Bible is not corrupt

not true. the Qur'an doesn't quote any "Bible".

Hahahaha, your ignorance or sheer determination to refute history and obvious proof is interesting. I will give you two Surahs from the Quran that quoted the Bible word for word

Surah 5:45 "We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by what Allah hath revealed, they are wrong-doers"

The above Surah is quoted from Exodus 21:23-25 and Deuteronomy 19:21. I will quote both scriptures:

Exodus 21:23-25 "And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, Nose for nose, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe"

Deuteronomy 19:21 "And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot"

Second quote of the Quran from the Bible

Surah 21:105 "Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth.""

Quoted from Psalms 37:29 "The righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever"

Keep on denying history and your own Quran.

the Quran is not a creation

Please explain

where?!?

Do you want Surah's from your Quran? Here is one for you

Surah 3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Here is another one

Surah 21:91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.

Your own Quran confirms Jesus' virgin birth and that He was the Word of God and the Spirit of God who put on the flesh of man. Please read them carefully.

you threw in " I have some arabic background" and then went on about qutila, qatala. it was easily infered.

My arabic background has nothing to do with the differences between the arabic words qutila and qatala. That was a simple example that the arabic text in the Quran has different meanings compared to your claim that the Quran is error free and perfect. We are yet to discuss Shiite Muslims claims that portions of the present Quran is wrong. These are not Christian claims but Muslims claims.

false again! a complete collection of the surahs did exist. those reciters you mentioned were actually 'huffaz', people who had committed the entire Qur'an to memory-chapter and verse.

You are funny, they didn't EXIST oh. The Quran was compiled from numerous people who "remembered" what Muhammed said. After the "Authorized Version" was published, there were portions that were not even compiled in. For example, Aisha, Muhammed's widow, who was also instrumental in the gathering of some of the shreds that were compiled had remembered AFTER the "Authorized Version" had come out that there were certain portions she knew existed when Mohammed was alive that were obviously missing in the new text. THOSE MISSING PORTIONS REMAIN MISSING EVEN TODAY. Aisha is quoted as saying:

"The verse of the stoning, and of sucking an adult ten times were revealed and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the messenger of Allah expired and we were preoccupied with this death, a goat entered and ate away the paper"

This is recorded by Abu Muslim, Ibn Maja and Ibn Qutbah

I already know my history

Apparently you DO NOT!

BetaThings: This thread of 4 pages is an eloquent testimony to what you believe/condemn etc
But telling us you condemn the violence against Tuaregs/Ethnic Arabs without
1 opening a thread or
2. Mentioning it on this thread to balance the story
weakens your assertion that you condemn it

BTW I have seen Christians rejoicing when BH attacks muslims/northerners. Some claim that it is good for muslims to kill themselves

My point - balance the story; show that there is another side to what we are being fed on this thread

You brought it up, I didn't - Go ahead and open a thread. BH is a product of Islam not Christianity. We abhor violence whether it is done to muslims or any other religion. Your Islamic brothers in Mali started the fight (didn't they - they wanted to impose Sharia on others), now the tables have turn and you are hear complaining. Osama and his likes did the same on 9/11 and when the US responded - they termed it invading Arab holy land.

Stop the double standard and twisted logic - it proves you are sympathetic towards violence from Islamic fundamentalist. For you to take a stand and condemn BH and the likes in Mali - you are here playing politics.

what original bible?. you didn’t compile the bible until about 300 years after Jesus Christ was gone. don’t you know your history?

You claimed the Bible was corrupt. Muslims say it all the time, the ORIGINAL Bible is lost and what we have now is not the original. So, I am asking, if you know where the original is why not tell us. Your Quran has referenced and quoted the Bible on several occasions. I wonder how a book (the Quran) that was created before the universe is able to quote a book (the Bible) that was compiled 300 years ago. Makes me wonder how UNIQUE the Quran is. The Quran itself testifies that the Bible is the Word of God..

any lay person can figure out the bible has been changed by just looking at the 73 books of the roman catholic bible as against the 66 books of the protestants and wonder: is it 7 books more or 7 books less?

Your prophet commended the Bible in his days (Surah 5:69; 10:94). Maybe you should ask him which Bible he used because you are of the opinion the one we have is corrupted

really? your background in arabic enabled you to come up with that? because i know a certain website that would be offended by you claiming their credit.

I never claimed any credit. I stated that don't think we are ignorant that there are differences in the Quran.

anyway,many a Prophet did fight and many a prophet was killed.

Hahaha, what a cheap deceitful way of handling the obvious. The verb fought and the verb killed mean two entirely different things. Besides, why didn't both translations had a unified intepretation?

God’s last Prophet stated “this Quran has been revealed in seven different ways so recite it in the way easiest for you”.

Your God, not mine.

the seven styles (ahruf-but you already know that, right?) were taught by the Prophet to the people. so even when copies of the Quran were made by the caliph Uthman according one style (harf) it was without the vowel points so other styles could be accommodated.

You need some history on your own religion. At the time of Mohammad's death, a complete collection of the suras did not exist. In 633AD, several Quran reciters were killed in the battle of Aqaba. This prompted Umar Ibn Elkhatab to persuade Abu Bakar (then the Khaliph) to make a proper collection of the Quran. Zaid Ibn Thabit, (one of Mohammed's secretaries) was appointed to accomplish this task, which according to him was more difficult that "to move a mountain". Letters were dispatched to believers everywhere to bring any portion they had. Umar and Zaid sat at the gate of a mosque testing oral and written portions of the Quran. Every portion had to be backed by at least two witnesses before it could be incorporated into the Quran. It seems that, however, that a considerable number of verses were both added and lost in the mechanical process (Unlike what muslims want us to believe that the Quran was HOT in heaven before the creation of the world). For example, someone called Abikhazami, which no one knew, but was accepted on the ground that Mohammed has said that this man's word was equal to two witnesses, produced a certain portion.

Umar himself came with the verse know as "aye tael rajem" - the verse of stoning, which says that if a couple (especially an elderly couple) commit adultery, they should be stoned to death. As no one present testified to it, was excluded, though Umar practised that during his reign. This is still practised today in Saudi Arabia.

Another problem was that of abrogation. Mohammed taught that some of his later (new) revelations annulled the earlier (old) ones. I wonder how the version in Heaven was updated. Some of his followers had only the new and some had the old. There was contention as to which one is annulled and which one is not. There were also mainly 4 of Mohammed's followers with their separate small collection. Some time later, during the reign of the 3rd Caliph, Uthman, it was reported to him that several Muslim communities i.e Syria, Armenia and Iraq were reciting the Quran in a way that was different from that in which those in Arabia were reciting it. This was unacceptable to Uthman. It would do damage to Islam if there were different versions of the Quran in wide distributions. Uthman thus called upon Zaid to oversee the production of a definitive and final authorized version of the Quran that would become the standard for all Muslims everywhere. Once Zaid's task was completed, Uthman had copies of the Authorized version made, and these were distributed to Islamic centers in Mecca, Medina, Basra, Damascus, and other cities. All other copies of the Quran were burned so there would be no challenge to the authorized text. Thus Uthman gave the Islamic community the Quran he wanted them to have.

It is not surprising then that the Quran being used in Iran (the Shiites) is different from the Quran that is in use in other places like Saudi Arabia, Nigeria (who are mainly Sunnis) although the Muslim world and you will like us to believe that your Quran is PERFECT. Yeah Right. We all know that there was never an original copy of the Quran. According to the Hadith, Mishkat'ul Masabih, the Quran was originally written in pieces and fragment on palm leaves, camels ribs and shoulder blades etc. When it descended from heaven, did it come on camel shoulder blades?

So, you having your Quran in Arabic and the translation in another language means nothing my friend. It doesn't prove anything. You keep using the Quran to judge the Bible, when the Bible predates the Quran. Jesus died, was risen, bodily seen by numerous witnesses; yet your prophet came 600 years later and said "It seemeth so in their eyes".

advocate666: So why did he create humans?

I am a bit confused here. Correct me if I am wrong, I was under the impression that you don't believe in God and/or there is no God. Is that correct?

F00028: don't make me laugh. that's something you tell the ignorant to make them think you're on to something.

the Qur'an is essentially a recital and has different reading styles/dialects. and you can find those readings in printed form but that's where it stops.

the Quran is not like your bible. where you find one has six whole books more than others, some throw out verses that others include. those are versions.

they are not merely different translations or variant readings. your bible's case is much more serious than that.


cut to the chase! if there's something in particular on your mind just say it and lets be done with it.

If you think it's only styles/dialects, why not let's look at it together. I have some arabic background. We all know, you claim the Bible is corrupt; that doesn't move us. Yet not one Muslim in the whole world can tell us where the original Bible they refer to is. We never claimed the Quran is corrupt, but to say that the original translation is in Arabic makes spotless is at best laughable. To prove that, we have to look at the different translations and versions.

Let me give you a typical example. Surah 3:146, Imam Hafs version says - And many a prophet fought (qatala) ... 3.146. Imam Warsh version says - And many a prophet was killed (qutila) ... 3.146. There are different vowels in these words. This changes the meaning from the active to the passive. As if a prophet fought is the same thing as a prophet killed. The are numerous other diacritical and vowel differences that CHANGES the meaning of some Surahs. Go on and claim what you want to claim. If you read the Bible and want to see 1001 errors, you will see those errors even if you have to make them up. The same goes for the Quran. So, stop talking as if there are people not informed on this subject.

I had wanted you to clarify what the theme of this thread was. It's apparent now.

BetaThings: I doubt if this part of the story will be reported by "people who are very troubled that people are being killed"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21191188

The Malian army says it is investigating allegations that soldiers have carried out summary executions in the Islamist-controlled north.

A senior military officer told the BBC it was neither confirming nor denying such acts had taken place.

The International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) has accused Malian troops of killing Arabs and ethnic Tuaregs.

And do you think we SUPPORT it. We CONDEMN it, whether it is muslims killing themselves or no . Besides, are the Malians not muslims? Isn't it muslims killing muslims themselves. In Syria, the FSA and the government, are they not muslims killing one-another? I hope you know 90% of Malians are muslims? I really don't see what you are trying to prove here.

BetaThings: When Muslims say the Bible is corrupt, it obviously cannot be everything
We see that in real world
Obviously no Muslim will disagree with the idea that man and earth were created by God, that Jesus said the Lord is one God
Clearly a muslim will not accept that a Jacob can fight "God", prevail and be renamed Israel

Which part is corrupt then and where is the original that is not corrupt. And which part that is not corrupt that you muslims accept? Is it the KJV or NIV that most muslims claim is not the word of the God of the Bible? Christians never made claim that the Quran is corrupt.

I don't want to assume the scripture you are referring to about Jacob, can you please clarify so we can discuss it. Thanks mate

advocate666: no. he is saying that the idea of an omnipotent loving god is sheer nonsense as it is incompatible with the existence of evil.

Human choice decides what turns out to be evil and what turns out to be good. God has given us the freedom to decide and that is the only true freedom we have. If God had made all of us robots to do EXACTLY what He wanted/wants; then you probably wouldn't be posting on this thread. When a man robs a store, it has nothing to do with God; the thief decided that on his own.

advocate666: No, he didn't say that. We are talking about humans here.

Okay, just checking

open a translation of the Qur'an. you'll find the original arabic and the english translation
side by side or above and below.

What version should I quote? The Hafs (used mainly in the muslim world in general)or the Warsh (Used in Algeria, Morocco, parts of Tunisia, West Africa and partly in Sudan) versions of the Qur'an. I have a few Surahs that shows differences in arabic graphical letters and vowel differences between these two Quran translations. Would you like us to compare these two? There are other Qurans like the Qalun (Used in Libya, Tunisia and parts of Qatar) as well.

if you have read the op and follow ups and you still don't get it then there is no point

I am asking you to verify your claim. Is that too much to ask?

yes, but you have the original words in the original language side by side to compare with any (mis)translation.

Your proof?

then you spoke too soon

Perhaps, can you clarify what you are talking about?

I am still trying to figure out what F00028 is talking about?

F00028: @dansmog++

Jesus didn't speak greek.

Neither did Mohammed speak English but we have an English Quran.

.

Symphony007: yes, the bible also talks about stoning the adulterous why is'nt it done today? The bible talks about capital purnishment of death for not obeying the sabath, the talks alot about the death penalty for lots of things. Why is'nt that being done today? Why cherry picking the things you like(anti-gay) and ignoring the things you want to avoid( death penalty).

Nobody is cherry picking anything. Tell me one place in the Bible were homosexuality is endorsed; then I will SHUT my mouth. Jesus gave a prime example when people were about to stone an adulterous woman - because it was the Jewish law, what was his response "If you haven't sin before", then go ahead and stone her. After that, what did he tell her - Go and SIN no more. Do you see the distinction between the Jewish Law and Grace here. The same applies to Homosexuality, while a gay has the right to love anyone they choose, Gods grace is abundant but God will not abolish his law to be politically correct. Christians will not hate you for been gay; however, we will not endorse it either because IT IS NOT ENDORSED OR SUPPORTED IN THE BIBLE. IT IS CONDEMNED.

I don't think this thread is about death penalty in the Bible. You can open one and we will address it accordingly. This one is about homosexuality and if the Bible endorses it. IT DOESN'T AND NEVER WILL.

Zodiac61: Are you so ignorant that you need a lesson in human reproduction?
The one thing I can tell you is that there is no god involved
Did your god care for and love those kids who were killed in Newtown?
Did he care for those five people who were beheaded in Nigeria recently?
If he did, he certainly has a very funny way of showing it.
On the other hand, maybe there is no god, and people like you need to find a different comfort blanket.

So, are you saying there is no God because He "permits" evil to happen?

Kay 17: Marriage is actually partnership based on matrimonal privileges. Its btw the parties, not the State and the parties or the Church and the parties.

Reproduction is not a prerequisite of marriage so reproductive compatibility isn't an issue.

Marriage can be contracted on the basis of love, if the parties believe that they are insanely in love, the state can not stop them.

Given that the Nigerian constitution espouses a right to association, it means that ppl are entitled to freely bond partnerships upon whatever terms and conditions they choose including matrimonial privileges.

By your definition, if someone sincerely falls in love with his dog, they can get married?

Symphony007: why does'nt your pastor let God be the judge of that? Let it be the between the person who is transgender and their creator!! Gays have'nt done anything to keep nigeria in the state that it is, corruption has. But pastor adeboye never makes it a point to attack corruption whenever he has the president or any political buddy of his in their congress. Corruption in his church and the country takes a back seat to "gays".

The issue is about Gays and the Bible stand on it. The pastor has come out to speak on it and condemn it unlike the thousands of clergy men in the West that are trying to be politically correct and keep quiet. Not corruption in Nigeria. You can open a thread on that and the pastor supposedly corruption issue you mentioned as well.

Gays have a right to life, love and live like everyone else - no doubt about it. However, the Bible stand is firm on the issue. IT DOESN'T SUPPORT IT.

Mali is too far. They are still up Northern Nigeria beheading innocent people. When you mention it, they will all jump on board and say something else

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21162787