₦airaland Forum

@seunaija

You don't have to be a scholar to read the Quran my friend. You quoted Surah 5:32-70 yet you didn't explain 5:51. Your claim is that I am telling lies, half truths etcs. Yet you still can't explain what the Surahs mean. You claim I am copying and pasting from the Internet but you don't even know if I have a muslim background or not. So, your claim is all the same, I am misquoting and I am out of context but all you have done is pasted Surahs above and below and still haven't EXPLAINED to us what they mean.

For example, if I quote Surah 2: 256 - Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. Am I taking this Surah out of context? The Surah is clear on the point it is making.

There is over 100 verses in Quran related to violence in different Surahs and at different times. If we bring up these Surahs, you response will be the same - we are quoting it out of context. Remember, we haven't even touched the hadith yet . For the sake of argument, let us say, I am quoting it out of context, let us say that non-muslims don't understand what the Surahs are saying. What was the prophet stand on this? Did he rebuke violence/killings? Was he personally involved in wars and battles? Did his life reflect non-violence and peace? Remember now, we might have to go to the hadith to answer these questions so please don't play pretend and say I am quoting out of context. So, if I am quoting out of context we might have to consult historical records to explain and answer these questions.

Dear Moderator - I have told you, blocking my IP address aint gonna work.

@seunajia

Interesting, so every Surah I quote is out of context - perhaps you can explain how. I have asked @Basic and others to explain them but so far the response has been google it or you are quoting out of context. To me, that is a cheap way of tackling the issue. Your claim that we are surface readers fails to do justice to the question we want you to clarify. So far, you have failed to address.

Bringing other religions down to the level of Islam is one of the most popular strategies of Muslim apologists (yourself) when confronted with the spectacle of Islamic violence. Muslims who compare crime committed by people who happen to be nominal members of other religions to religious terror committed explicitly in the name of Islam are comparing apples to oranges.

Very interesting point you brought up about Jesus asking his disciples to sell their properties to buy swords. I could have said you are quoting it out of context but I will take the time to explain it to you. What was Jesus response when one of his disciples cut of the ear of a Roman guard?:

A rebuke is recorded in three of the four gospels: Matthew 26:52 ('"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.'), Luke 22:51 ('But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.'), and John 18:11 ('Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?"'). Mark does not record a rebuke, but does note that while one disciple used a sword, Jesus allowed himself to be arrested peacefully.. Jesus taught peace. He never encouraged violence or killed anyone. His life is the example that Christians want to emulate. Again, please explain and clarify those verses we are taking out of context.

No other religion produces the killing sprees that Islam does nearly every day of the year. Neither do they have verses in their holy texts that arguably support it. Nor do they have large groups across the globe dedicated to the mass murder of people who worship a different god, as the broader community of believers struggles with ambivalence and tolerance for a radical clergy that supports the terror. Muslims may like to pretend that other religions are just as subject to "misinterpretation" as is their “perfect” one, but the reality speaks of something far worse. Does all muslim support this - I honestly don't think so. There are regular muslim folks who want to lead normal lives and don't subscribe to violence.

wisestfool: What part of Quran is that that stated the killing of the christians?
Bastard

See for yourself:

1. Surah 5:51 - O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

I don't know how you interpret this but this Surah is saying don't be friends with Christians. To answer your questions, here is the Surah that states killing unbelievers taught and encouraged. Please confirm is unbeliever means anyone who is not a muslim. That description fits Christians as well.

2. Surah 47:4 - Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers, smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Let us say the above Surah is taken out of context or I read it wrong, what about

3. Surah 8:12 - Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

@wisestfool - Please comment

The moderator is this thread blocked my IP address, I wish I knew why!. I ask that you state the reason the next time when you block it.

Blocking my IP address is not going to prevent me from posting. I thought I let you know so you don't waste your time

Like I said earlier, the original poster seems to have good intentions regarding this subject. However, his clarifications are not coherent with the Quran, at least not the one that everyone is quoting from. So, while we appreciate his intentions, the Quran, Hadith and history tells us otherwise. You can't explain away or ignore the many verses that encourage violence in the Quran. Non-muslims see the violence and killings on the news and at such want to understand WHY these are happening. So, the Quran is being read by more non-muslims to understand it's message about peace and violence. The violence is not propagated against non-muslims only but also against other sects of Islam. The focus here is what is being taught in the Quran.

@Jonarinho - You post doesn't reflect any contribution or criticism to the subject. Back your statement up with traceable facts if there are any. That been said, try and respond on subject and not off subject.

When one attempts to dialogue with any Muslim, moderates included, endeavoring to understand the relationship between terrorism and Islam, one is confronted with a response that, in effect, puts the cart before the horse by reversing the order of "cause" and "effect" in a defensive barrage of unrelated events and injustices - all the while admitting no wrongs - which ends up in a form of self-justification of the works of terror. Though the person speaking may, in fact disavow terror as a tactic to achieve redress, their opinion remains as follows:

‘Look what happened in Bosnia, and Herzegovina! See the brutality in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq, Palestine, and now, Lebanon! …

… Look at the vicious and violent acts that are perpetuated even by the American forces and the other occupational forces in Iraq and Afghanistan! Look at the atrocities of Abu Ghraib Prison! …

And… how about the Crusades? The Europeans invaded us and caused conflict for over two hundred years. Conflict that included massive bloodshed and brutality! And, don’t forget what Hitler did to the Jews? Are we responsible for that? …

And…all those injustices to the Arabs in general, and the Palestinians in particular! For example, look at the American support for Israel despite the latter’s violations and rape of the human rights of the Palestinians, and its defiance of all international pronouncements!…Israel… that occupies almost the whole of Palestine, after snatching it from its rightful owners following World War II, then making its women and children homeless, and scattering them all over the world or condemning them to a meagre existence in refugee camps! …

And…what about the practice of violating Islamic holy sites and its historical monuments? …

You see…all these injustices naturally lead to violent reactions, and are the reasons for the retaliation and the terrorism with which Islam gets falsely accused and of which it is fully innocent!…And so, we ask, "Is self defence a crime? Is the Arab and Islamic blood cheap?"

But, they are neglecting to look at the past history of Islam, and at the root of terrorism within the pages of the Qur’an and the related holy books that define and empower Islam. A root which has born bitter fruit throughout the history of Islamic conquest, and would have done the same in our day and age even if there were no Israel, and even if there were no American forces in Muslim lands.

Was the forced expulsion of the Jews and the Christians in AD 635 from the Arabian Peninsula - by the "Just" and so-called "Rightly Guided" Khalifa Umar Ibn Al Khattab - caused by the Israeli occupation of Palestine?

Was the continuous march of Islamic armies to conquer and occupy neighbouring lands, country after country between the 7th and 17th centuries - all the way to the gates of Vienna - caused by the USA’s invasion of Iraq?

Where was Israel at that time? Where was the United States?

Why do the Arabs and the Muslims overlook their own history and their own sacred writings when asked to find a ‘cause’ for terrorism? Especially in view of the established fact that their "holy Jihad" is found recorded in the Qur’an?

Let’s face it, terrorism and violence in Islam is NOT a result of economic and political injustices from which the nations of those regions suffer - as is propounded and perpetuated by well-meaning Westerners, "moderate" Muslim political advisors, and possibly, some think-tank experts.

No, honourable pundits! Terrorism and violence in Islam isn’t a phenomenon due to either political or economic injustices.

No, not at all! In fact the painful truth is that terrorism and violence are fundamental components of Islam. In fact, Islam, without bloodiness and savage brutality, simply is not Islam. Islam without the spilling of blood would wither and die.

However, although the ‘injustices’ suffered are not the actual ‘causes’ of the terror, they are in every sense very real, and one can easily establish that all these injustices of every kind - be they political, economic, or social - are tools, ingredients, and ammunitions, which are being utilized most effectively by the overseers and the recruiters of Islamic terror, to motivate, train, manipulate, and launch new Jihadists for the cause of Allah.

Both real and perceived ‘injustices’ are employed by the terror managers within the various organizations like Al Qaeda and the others to pollute and brainwash the minds of the Muslim youth, for the purpose of ‘bringing them back’ to the true Islam of the Qur’an - which is then able to turn them into self-exploding suicidal martyrs.

What do these young men and women find when they return to the Qur’an with the newly awakened desire and determination to ‘play their part’ in the Islamic ‘struggle’? They find - Islamically speaking - that enmity with the Jews and the Christians and the call for their killing is quite normal, and is actually a divinely ordained obligation which is placed on all Muslims by Allah. And they are further buttressed in their new resolve by the Qur’anic promise that death in the cause of Islam transports one instantly to Paradise. This is the formula for a suicide bomber.

These divine, legally-binding decrees (see below) have been in the Qur’an for nearly 1400 years, empowering and sustaining Jihadists during the first emergence of Islam centuries ago, and now guiding, teaching, unifying and empowering the Jihadists of Al Qaeda and the likes of it, in their current bid for a global resurgence.

Sura 9:29 says: "Fight (slay and kill) those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the last day (judgement day), nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor they follow the religion of truth (the religion of Islam) out of those who have been given the Book (Jews and Christians), until they pay the tax, in acknowledgment of superiority and (recognition that) they are in a state of subjection (to Islam).

Sura 5:82 says: Worst among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and pagans.

Sura 5:51 says: O ye who believe, take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other, and he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is one of them Verily, Allah guideth not a people unjust (Jews and Christians).

Sura 60:1 says: O ye who believe (Muslims) take not my enemies and yours as friends, offering them love.

Sura 98:6 says: Those who reject Islam among the people of the book (Jews and Christians) and among the polytheists (all other religions) will be in hell fire to dwell in there for ever and they are the worst of creatures.

It wasn’t always this way - because in the initial revelations of the Qur’an during those early to middle years of Mohammad’s governance of the nascent Islam, there were benevolent references to Jews and Christians. They were nullified, abrogated and, long before his death, the operative Suras, as quoted above, were already in full force.

In the light of these Qur’anic directives, can it still be said that the Islamic hostility and animosity towards the Jews is engendered only because of their occupation of Palestine? Or is it openly and clearly rooted in the religion itself?

If we were to suppose the possibility that the political, social and economic injustices were to be addressed, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict resolved, and Iraq stabilized, along with the withdrawal of all of the international forces from that country, and all Muslim lands - then, would the Qur’anic "Jihad obligation" be rescinded? If Boko Haram Islamized the north and established a sharia state, will that fix everything?

And if so, would the Qur’anic verse quoted above - Sura 5:51-52 – then be changed to read, "O ye who believe, go ahead and take the Jews and the Christians as your friends"? And Sura 5:82 be changed to read: "… the closest to those who have believed (the Muslims) are the Jews …"?

In other words - does Jihad in Islam come to an end when the injustices are addressed and put right? Would we then, under these ideal conditions have a truly "sustainable peace"? Or, could it be that Jihad can only end when all the peoples of the earth have submitted, surrendered and been Islamised?

@Basic

As I said earlier, I admire you for your boldness in tackling an issue that most muslims shy away from. That been said, I will respond to your clarification in more detail at a later time. Some of your clarification came to conclusions that we need you to prove against the Quran. I personally think you are a reasonable and good person but the theme you are preaching "Let us all get along" whether we are muslims or not might be a step in the right direction but it doesn't do justice to addressing the violence that is taught and encouraged in the Quran.

@BinghiNya - Is that all the input you can give, cursing and profanity?

@Basic,

I like that you take time to be objective and address some statements and posts. You made a few statements and I will like you to throw more light on them.

There are NO contradictions in the Quran. Either some verses were later revealed to abrogate others or that the underlying causes behind their revelations were different or the situations where they are applicable are different. There are hundreds of "contradictions" in the bible too. I hope you know. But I know your pastors too will have "explanations" for that. So, stay away from what you don't know, okay? - By this you mean, Allah will make a revelation and then later cancel it or revoke it with another one? I find this confusing because:

Surah 2:106 - None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

You say that things are abrogated or revealed and as a result changed but Surah 2:106 says otherwise. Can you confirm which is correct.

Also, the Quran states that it is immutable in Surah 10:64 - For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity.

Do you understand my confusion, you say the parts of the Quran was later changed or abrogated for update yet the Quran says that it is immutable. These are some of the things I want you to clarify for me.

On your post - Check your dictionary for the meaning of the word "infidel". Oh let me spare you the stress. The word infidel simply means "someone that does not acknowledge your God". So, it's allowed that we call Christians and other non-Muslims infidels. Similarly, Christians can call Muslims and other non-Christians infidels, just like you refer to us as "unbelievers". You got that? - I agree with you, infidel is the same thing as unbelievers. Christians refers to people that don't believe in Jesus Christ as unbelievers. However, the primary difference is how we treat people that don't believe or accept our religion.

The Quran says in Surah 5:51 - Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. - Can you explain what the Quran means here? How do you interpret this Surah

@talk2me006

I am asking you to clarify but you are asking me to google it - I don't see on the thread where the violence issue is addressed. Would you prefer if I mentioned a few text from the Quran and you expound so we can discuss? All I am asking is for you to tell me or show me where violence is discouraged against non-believers. For example, @hassan123 - said that "There is no portion of d Qur'an that instructs muslims 2 kill xtians".

@talk2me006

Then please correct me, I am asking you to clarify - nothing else. I haven't stated otherwise. Please use the Quran and explain. Let us reason together. State your points and let us use the Quran to weigh your statements. That is all I ask. Is that reasonable?

@talk2me006

We are interested on the Quran stand on violence. We want to know what will make a muslim kill another muslim or a christian in the name of God. It's not an attack on Islam, we want to know what the Quran teaches on the subject. It's either BH are not muslims if muslims are taught not to kill. So again, what is taught in the Quran. Please teach and enlighten us. Whilst doing that, allow us to ask questions to understand what is being taught.

I am still waiting for a response from @Basic regarding Islam stand on violence.

@Basic,

Can you address the questions I raised?

I couldn't help but respond to a couple of post on this thread. First of all:

@Basic

I want to thank you for the effort you made to reach out and clarify some things about Islam especially regarding violence. I respect your effort and I wish Muslim leaders could do the same. To save space and time, I will like you and our Muslims friends on NL to teach us and enlighten us about what the Quran says about violence/justification of killing toward non-muslims. It is only fair that you will allow us to research this using the Quran. I also ask that you allow us (non-muslims) to quote from the Quran for clarification and explanation. So, please teach us about what the Quran says regarding violence.

@Discordia

I saw your response to @cinammon post about the Quran permitting violence where she quited some Suras and your response was "Nothing contradicts anything?". Can you please explain.

I will like us to have an intelligent discussion about this without any prejudice or being biased. This is not a Christian versus Muslim thread. The poster in my opinion made an honest attempt and we will like him to further explain what the Quran says about violence using the Quran and if possible the Hadith and other related materials if necessary for clarification.

Are we talking about mobile speeds or fixed line speeds?

I was thinking about the same thing but I am not in 9ja because of work. I want to start an asterisk and python user group.

You hate python because version 3.x.x uses an updated syntax? You should be hating a lot of programming languages then because that will keep happening.

Do you have the mysql-python driver installed on python ver 3?

Python 3.2 hasn't gained a lot of grounds yet. I alot of people are still running 2.6 and 2.x versions. The primary reason I am running 2.6 is because the MySQL-python driver is supported on both windows and linux.

Will put up the first code base later on today.

Ok, here we go:

We will be building an inventory program, it can be any inventory. The objective is to show how python can take advantage of MySQL. We will be touching the following:

1. Work with a database
2. Connect to a database
3. Query the database
4. Add records
5. Modify records
6. Delete records
7. Output information in the database to a CSV file

Installing MySQL

To install and run this app, you ’ ll need to install MySQL and the Python MySQLdb package. You can find instructions for downloading and installing MySQL and MySQLdb in http://www.codegood.com/archives/4 if using Windows and http://sourceforge.net/projects/mysql-python/ for Linux. To test if MySQL for python has been installed successfully, launch python on the CLI and type

import MySQLdb

If the driver is installed successfully, you will have no errors. Here is a good link for installing python 2.6 source on windows with MySQL for python

http://fuyun.org/2009/12/install-mysql-for-python-on-windows/

Will be following up with more information.

Thank God for open-source

Catch you later mate.

Does the WAMP logs show any errors?

haha

You are not a bother, the end of the year was pretty hectic and I get a lot of work thrown in my lap at the office which I didn't ask for. Sure, I can look at what needs to be done and help out. Should be at the office in about 2 and half hours, will touch base with you then.

I am primarily an asterisk guy, love it and can hack it but freeswitch is a better platform when it comes to scaling and multi-tenancy. The platform can handle 10 million calls in an hour - that's the shizzy

You know, I was thinking we start an asterisk user group in 9ja. Something small for now to spread the use of asterisk. What do you think?

Hey Damola,

You are welcome mate, it was my pleasure to assist.

Perhaps we can install a local instance of SugarCRM and do some test - that way everything will be on your LAN and you shouldn't have connection problems.

Yeah, she is back today, I will contact her and see how things are. I am praying for 9ja. It's said to see the way things are.

It's 5:15am right now and I will be headed to the office by 6am this morning. Been up for the last 4 hours testing freeswitch - It's an amazing soft switch

@all4naija

You are right, currently windows still is the dominate in the PC market. That been said, it is gradually losing market to MACs and linux variants like ubuntu and mint . It's similar to the web browser war that started a few years ago when Internet explorer was the dominant browser but for the last couple of years is losing it's position to firefox and google chrome. Unix/Linux is dominate in the server world not because it is cheap but because it out-performs Windows as a server platform and it's open-source. People are seeing that linux can do it in the PC market as well and it's slowly getting there.

Sounds like kannel can help you (www.kannel.org)

The main use for Kannel is to link HTTP based services to various SMS centers using obscure protocols. The good thing is that it's free. You will need some Unix/Linux skills to set it up though but once installed correctly, it's pretty neat.

@Damola,

How is elastix treating you? I know you got it working with the hardware card. Have you been able to set it up with SugarCRM?

Looking back at this thread, I see I had several posts up, I never followed through, my bad guys. Here is what I am going to do. I will start a project in python that will allow us code a simple database app from the CLI. The app will provide normal database CRUD functionality and we can build on it from there. Sounds good?

I will get started if we are agreement. Later, we can start writing network servers and clients in python, simple glue stuff that will teach the power behind python.

What's up fellow pythoners

I am excited to see python is getting some audience in 9ja. I know the Seun has always been a proponent of python. For those of you looking for tutorials and some guidance, visit the following sites:

1. http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/NonProgrammers
2. http://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Programmers

I will like to see some entry level python project started by the nairaland community - it can be anything. Python is an amazing glue language and can be use in so many domains. I will provide pointers and some code if I see serious commitments. I have started building a recording interface for the popular asterisk project using python and django. It's still in it's infancy and will throw out a demo when I can get the initial release out. So, let's get cracking and stop talking

The police should be decentralized - organizations like the SSS or other intelligence federal agencies should be controlled by the federal government. 9ja is a federal state, there are local governments - each local government should have it's own police force, courts, prisons, fire service etc. So, it's not everything that happens that you blame the federal government. If a local government chairman is chopping your local govt money - how is that the president's fault.

When you have issues that the local government can't handle, then you involve the state government until you move up the chain.

How should I start my response:

Let us trace the problem back to the beginning and maybe just maybe we can make some sense out of it. How did the weapons and guns the BH is using get into the country? In order for that to happen it means Nigeria has a defective custom and immigration system. If your borders are not secure - you can have weapons come in. Now imagine if they can sneak in biological weapons or nukes? You see where it gets tricky - this is where the US is concerned about. If 9ja can't handle "LOCAL" problems, what happens when you have a "local: problem that affects others?

Most of the governing institutions in 9ja are face functioning with no professionalism whatsoever. For example, every Nigerian should have a unique identification ID or a social security number. This number should be tied to your bank account, employment, place of birth, residence etc. Basically, it should list and provide an audit trail of whatever you do. Institutions should do the same. Everyone should have access to their senators, congressman/woman, people in national assembly. So when they mess up; you scream about it, make noise about it, write about it. So, it creates an environment where people in position of authority are cautious and careful. It keeps them on their toes. But if someone steals from public office you talk about it over dinner and that's it - where are you effecting change? NO-WHERE.

If you don't have your house in order and by not doing anything harms someone else - then you are sure the other person will act to protect their interest. If BH was screaming and shouting but not harming people, no one would really care. But if they start killing people and blowing up places, of course they will attract attention and if Nigerians can't do anything about it; then others will.

I was appalled to read that the sultan was condemning the government heavy-handedness in dealing with BH. I am not saying the government approach is correct but it shocks me that the leader of the entire muslims in Nigeria didn't make any effort to resolve this before condemning someone else.

Pretty nice theory

You need to research the group behind the attacks - BH wants to establish an Islamic State in Northern Nigeria, they want to get rid of Western ideals and life-style. Does this sound familiar to any other group? YES -  Al-Qaeda! It smells of terrorism and radicalization. The only sad thing is that it's been brought to Nigeria door-steps and sadly by Nigerians. If Nigeria aint strong enough to deal with it - you will live in fear and may crumble under it.