₦airaland Forum

mbaemeka: ^^^

In my usual 'I too sabi' style I will point out to you that I said you learnt "something" not "all things" from their posts..

There you go again committing the same offence that you condemned someone else of- rushing to reply the post without reading it well.

Hahaha. Ok. And I didn't mention the other ones you mentioned. . You only assumed. Oya its time to sleep now. Have a blessed night.

mbaemeka: I am not only wise in my own eyes. I am wise in God's eyes. I am wise in my Alma mater's eyes (from Nursery to . . .) And I am also wise in your own eyes. It is the Lords doing and it is marvellous in your...you know the rest. Thank you.

He who does not know, and does not know that he does not know, and does not want to know that he does not know.....

mbaemeka: To the pure in heart all things are pure.

Whether you learnt from him or Nlmediator or Gombs I could careless. As long as you learnt something (of the truths in their posts) then my joy is fulfilled.

And your mind tells you I now agree 100 percent with your line of thoughts? No sir. I learn from both sides(proposing and opposing sides). That's my style.

dorox: You are right in the sense that sin offerings were made using animal blood in the old testament, but it was only a token, not the actual price for the sins of those men. Sin was never actually forgiven on the basis of animal sacrifice. Read Heb 10:1-4, it is self explanatory.

I know that the highest sacrifice for sin remains that of Jesus. But at least God still acknowledged the other provision he made in the old testament. You can also make contributions on the other issues raised here. I like learning.

mbaemeka: If I had seen this before posting I would have simply requoted you. You have said everything I wanted to say.

God bless you.

Unfortunately you wouldnt have said it the way he did. Your own would ve carried the usual "I too sabi" traits.(Sorry but thats just my view). He is a good teacher. Its a gift. I enjoyed reading him. Infact i read through his post again and again and i learned from his points.

dorox: Have you read in the bible where Jesus said that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through him. -John 14:6
Compare the above scripture with Romans 5:12-18 with particular attention to verses 12,18 and 19. What is your take on it with regards to your statement that people's sins were forgiven in the old testament?

Atonement were made for sin with the sacrifice of animal in the old testament. Am i wrong?

SalC: This is a tough one

Well I believe God knew that giving both angels and humans free will will certainly result in either of the two ends. Ie obedience and disobedience. And since God is omniscient, I can certainly say he knew Lucifer will sin.

Coming to why he went ahead to create him, I will have to state here that our (my) understanding here is limited and/or impaired. There are things I believe we may not fully understand about God till we cross over

Having said that....

I believe God went ahead to create Luciifer because he isn't just after creating only those who will always be subject to him even against their wish. He rather created those who will exercise their free will not only to please him but to make every side of him known.

For instance, if Lucifer never sinned God wouldn't have cast him out and we wouldn't have known God is capable of casting out heavenly dwellers. Same can be said about God creating the tree at the centre of the garden and instructing Adam not to eat of it. Why will he even create such? I would say eating the fruit of that tree is the only option he kept for them to exercise their free will in the negative direction, that is, if he had created them with free will without providing an "object" or "option" on which they can act if they choose to exercise their free will in the wrong way, then it's as Good as he never created them with free will.

In thesame manner, if he had not created Lucifer because he knew Lucifer will sin, that mean he really never wanted his creatures to exercise their free will.

Don't know if I remotely passed the massage in an understandable way

Yea yours is also similar to my line of thought on it. God is a creator. Like a porter(Romans 9). A creator conceives an idea of what he wants to create before creating. He doesnt just rush into creating without a concept or without articulating what he wants. like i stated earlier in my OP, I believe he created lucifer for the purpose of manifesting the other side of him. If not for such negative acts we wouldnt have known this other side of him. I mean, God couldnt have started unleashing his wrath in a peaceful heaven where everybody was obedient to him. . It is contrary/negative action that was needed for that side of him to manifest. God is in charge, there is nothing anyone can do about it. The best anyone can do is to line up with him and enjoy the loving side of him through his son Jesus Christ our Lord. For me, since he made a way of escape for us i have every reason to be grateful to him at all times. If he had not made a way of escape would i have saved myself from his wrath? No way. If lucifer who was in a higher realm with him could not save himself from His wrath, is it we mere mortals that could ve done that without his help? No. So to God be the glory.

Honestly i enjoyed your contributions here SalC. Thanks a lot and i ll still ask more where the need arises. Let me still wait for torchwave to reply. I enjoy him too. Other brethren pls contribute. We are all learning. God bless everyone.

mbaemeka: Is your God not the one that enters into a man and leaves the man and re-enters the man and leaves the man? Is your God not the one that takes note of women that use attachments and make up? Is that not your petty God? That is the robot we are talking about.

Jesus said the kingdom of God doesn't come through your careful observation. You don't say since God didn't respond to what I prayed for then it is against his will for my life. That's nonsense. Paul prayed to God to relieve him of his persecution and God RESPONDED saying my strength is made manifest in your weakness. The issue is that Paul heard God, he didn't assume like some faithless christians that anything that happens is the will of God.

As you may have noticed, I do not talk about the word of God like someone that is still guessing. I am sharing with you things that I put to work every day with tremendous results. If it makes me look wise to you it is because I am very wise. I prayed for it and I received it immediately. I didn't wonder if it was Gods will to make me dumb instead then conclude "may thy will be done o God". Trying to spiritualize unbelief like some of you have done to your own peril.

You may choose not to respond to me again or you may let God's will be done. What ever that means.

I repeat again- mbaemeka you are always WISE IN YOUR OWN EYES. Twisting my words like you twist the bible will not work.

PastorKun: It's called self glorification/personal aggrandisment. Promoting their personal image at the expense of the true gospel of Christ. It also flys directly in the face of humility that is supposed to be a Key attribute of christian leaders.

Exactly my reply.

torchwave: One more thing, nothing takes God by surprise. Absolutely nothing![/i]

Thanks for your explanations. They are really good.
In the light of your statement above it means you are saying that the fall of Lucifer didn't come as a suprise to God. Why then did he go ahead to create him knowing what his fall will bring to the world. Do you think its for a purpose? What purpose?

N/B. Pls feel free to say all that you want to say. People are reading. People are learning. You might also learn from others when they read your contribution and make their submissions. I'm enjoying you and SalC. I hope others will contribute. This issue is one that christians shy away from going deep into, yet a lot of them leave the faith because they dont understand it. God is your strength.

SalC: Strictly speaking I won't attribute his fall to free will , if I understood you, you are saying if there was not free will, there wouldn't have been any room for Lucifer's fall, ..... Probably, but I will also say, free will is not a licence to sin,

I prefer saying Lucifer's fall is attributed to how he chose to channel his free will. Notice that he is not the only one to whom this free will was granted, the angels who refused to join him where also exercising their free will, whereas they channelled theirs in the right way, Luciifer allowed pride take over the better part of him and that led to his fall. The free will is not really the issue but what he chose to do with it is.

Ok. Do you think that God knew that lucifer will sin before creating him? If yes why do you think he still created him knowing the consequences of it?

^^^Oga you are always wise in your own eyes. Save your long story. God is not a robot. While you make your request to him still make room for his will to prevail. Some of you think you are wiser than God. For me, once I pray for the will of God to prevail it comes out best so I don't know what you are explaining again. Sometimes his will goes in line with my prayers or in contrast but at the end of the day I ll still see that its the best.

esere826: Isaiah 14
How are you fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn. You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven,...

..sounds more like the aspirations of the tower of Babel to me. From the earth they built upwards and were then dispersed. It might not be the case sha.

Compare to Ezekiel 28: 15
You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. 16"By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of ...

..Now this sounds more like Satan. Note there is a direct reference to cherub here, I also noticed that folks dont often use the Ezekiel verse. Many probably haven't seen this

Both of them point to satan though Ezekiel is more specific. Read the account of the tower of babel in Genesiss 11 and you ll see that they are not related.

^^^ young man I quoted the scripture. I diIdnt put my words there. If you are not satisfied with what the scripture said that's your business.

Gombs: At this point, am lost....in my own thread...

Wonderful

No. Rather the truth is hitting hard on you.

Sometimes some of us christians think that God is our robot that we can manipulate anyhow. Yes faith works but faith doesnt mean that God should foolishly fall to your faith even when he is seeing that the faith you are exercising is not going to earn you any good. As much as we are exercising our faith in Christ let us also give room for "thine will be done". God is not a slowpoke. Jesus asked for the cup to be removed(typical of the flesh) but he quickly made room for God's will to be done. This flesh is so selfish and can never give better offer than God. If God in his wisdom feels its time to take me out of this world to come and be with him why should i feel he should keep me more? Since when did my little wisdom become much more than God's wisdom? Some of you are telling stories here. At the end of the day God will always have his way. " I will show mercy to whom i will show mercy". Thats God. If he doesnt want to show you mercy then you are wasting your time.

AlfaSeltzer: Blind leading the blinder.

satan always wandering about.

dorox: Nowhere did the bible indicate that Adam and Eve were given the provision for forgiveness or salvation, God passed a judgement of death to them. Just as Adam died, every child belonging to him was also condemned to die until Jesus used his life as a ransom sacrifice to adopt us as his children to give us life when he prevailed over death. Satan along with the unfaithful angels angels will soon meet their death in the lake of fire. It is important to note that from the moment we begin to exercise faith in Jesus christ, we are no longer part of the Adamic family that is doomed to death, our father becomes Jesus in whom there is life in abundance.
.

But before Jesus came people's sins were forgiven in the old testament.

kuss: Op, you have nothing to lose by paying your tithe
one thing i ve come to realize is that you can not outgive God
I pay my tithe and give offering regularly and I ve never lacked
if people in my office we earn the same salary borrow from me
don't be deceived by anyone
follow your heart pay your tithe what 90% can not do even 100% cannot do it

Succint

nora544: Giving is not always money it could also be your time for charity work, helping others that is also what it means to be a christian.

I agree

PastorKun: The tithe ordinance has been done away with and as a christian you are not supposed to tithe even though a lot of churches preach tithing for their selfish reasons. To you as a believer there is absolutely no benefit in paying tithes. That said, I would still encourage you to give generously as you purpose in your heart to your church and the less priviledge around you.

@OP,
If you are led to give tithe pls give. Dont swallow what he said here about tithe. You can also give offering as you are led. Thanks.

asuustrike1: study your Bible well.we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principality and power,against rulers of darkness. we are fighting spiritual enemies and not physical. it is so unfortunate that some persons have devote their life to wickness and you and I have to stop it before it's too late.the funniest thing is that the so called physical enemies might repent and go to heaven while their victims might get there.

So you stop it by praying that those "physical enemies" must die? Na lie o. Jesus said we should pray for our enemies. He didnt say we should pray against them. Read your bible well. Again, Jesus said- "bless them that persecute you". People should stop misinterpreting the scripture.

torchwave: Hello

Too many have gone astray, died along the way, become disillusioned and lost their precious faith, while much too many are headed in the direction of eternal perdition because they have not been able to FULLY understand the nature of God.

It is not uncommon to hear people say a loving God will never condemn any of His creation to hell. That is even better than those who believe there is no hell because, according to them, a loving God will never create a place like hell.

To know God is to know his nature. He is a God of love as well as a God of wrath. God has made known His nature to us numerous times in His Word so much that it should be something that is well known to anyone who reads his or her Bible. Knowing, teaching or being familiar with just a part of His nature leads to very grave doctrinal error that could cost the soul of such person and, worse, others.

I also believe God never created angels or man without freewill. There are no robots in heaven. God does not make robots. If Lucifer, a robot, sinned against God, the logical thing to do would be to repair him, or discard him as faulty but never to punish him for a 'mechanical' fault he committed as machines do not know good or evil. In that case, God would be blamed for Lucifer's malfunction in addition to being unfair for harshly treating Lucifer in the manner He did.

Even if God should design machines and call them angels, there would be no need to punish or reward them since they will always achieve and carry out the functions they were designed to do. Op, this is where your theory of angelic robots reveal a wide hole.

I shall continue this later when I have the time...

Your points are good. Now my question is-
If angels have free will, why didnt God make provision for forgiveness or salvation for them as he made for man who is also a free moral agent? And the scripture said that our redemption plan was made from the foundation of the world(which means at the very beginning). This could mean that God knew that man being a free moral agent could choose to sin therefore he made a way of salvation for us. But he never made such for angels, which could also mean that angels were not meant to choose like man. Or could it be that lucifer took God unawares?

esere826: Considering that we are generelly challenging a number of assumptions

From what period in time did it come to be taken that this scripture referred to the devil?
Other passages in Isiah seem to be allegories of kingdoms and kings of that time.

Why the romantization that that "son of the morning" was referring to Satan?
Who says for example that it was not nimrod or some leader who sought to build the tower of Babel to reach unto the heavens?

Read that scripture thoroughly and you will see that its not about some tower of Babel person.

esere826: Looking at these scriptures again
it does leve some question marks

Whereas it explicitly suggests that the devil, beast and false prophet
will be tormented forever in the lake

However, it does not suggest the same for humans
in fact if you peer closely at the verses,
it could also suggest that after humans have
faced the torment/formlessness of hell/death

those not found in the required books, and death and hades
will be obliterated by the fiery lake -the 2nd death

Well thats your own understanding of it. Lets see what others have to say about it. But for me, I dont really care about hell or lake of fire because, by the grace of God I am not going there. Whether those who will be cast into it will spend one second or a minute or eternity, I am not going there. I am for Jesus from now till eternity.

SalC: .

Your explanation is quite a good one. Now in the light of what you ve explained, will you attribute Lucifer's fall to freewill? How?

texanomaly: No

Ok. May be I didn't get your question.

esere826: Forgive my forgetfulness
Its been long since i read the bible cover to cover

can someone please help point out where it is said in the bible that the second death (lake of fire) will be forever for humans

Thanks

Revelation 20.

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mark 9;43
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.

^^^God's love is great and his wrath is equally great. Its not as if he has hidden this fact from man. Infact he also mentioned that he is the God of vegeance, he can kill and he can restore to life. If he had told us that he is only a loving God and that he cannot be angry or visit wrath on people then we can now accuse him of doing what he said he will not do. We should remain grateful to God that he is loving enough to make known these attributes of him to us and providing a way of escape for us. Whether we like it or not, God is in charge of the whole creation and he has the right to control any creature in line with any of his attributes. Life must go in compliance with his style. Let these truths sink in us.

If he could harden the heart of pharoah in order to make manifest his power, then it is possible that Lucifer's rebellion may have taken place purposely to make manifest his judgement/wrath. Its possible. God's ways are different. He must not do things our own way.

omonuan: Yes just like:

◄ Deuteronomy 32:39 ►

"See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

◄ Job 5:18 ►
For though he wounds, he also bandages. He strikes, but his hands also heal.

◄ Romans 9:13 ►

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Why I might ask. What has Esau done to deserve God's hate? What is loving about an unjust hate for a young Esau? See also Malachi 1:3

If God is love as stated in John 4:8, how could He hate anyone?
Does God hate redheads? (Gen.25:25) Hunters? (Gen.25:27) Polygamists (Gen.26:34), or what?

Romans 9 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

11 Before the children had been born or had done anything good or bad, Rebekah was told that the older child would serve the younger one. This was said to Rebekah so that God’s plan would remain a matter of his choice, 12 a choice based on God’s call and not on anything people do.[b] 13 The Scriptures say, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”
14 What can we say—that God is unfair? That’s unthinkable! 15 For example, God said to Moses, “I will be kind to anyone I want to. I will be merciful to anyone I want to.” 16 Therefore, God’s choice does not depend on a person’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17 For example, Scripture says to Pharaoh, “I put you here for this reason: to demonstrate my power through you and to spread my name throughout the earth.” 18 Therefore, if God wants to be kind to anyone, he will be. If he wants to make someone stubborn, he will.
19 You may ask me, “Why does God still find fault with anyone? Who can resist whatever God wants to do?”
20 Who do you think you are to talk back to God like that? Can an object that was made say to its maker, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 A potter has the right to do whatever he wants with his clay. He can make something for a special occasion or something for everyday use from the same lump of clay.
22 If God wants to demonstrate his anger and reveal his power, he can do it

SalC: Sorry, I meant "without freewill", that was a typo, both we and angels have freewill.

ok. so explain

texanomaly: in regard to lucifer...I hear people talk about him as if he is a man. I thought part of his punishment was that he will never receive a body.

Isaiah 14;12

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, [b]O Lucifer, son of the morning! [/b]how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Does the above scripture help in explaining?