₦airaland Forum

Weah96: There are judges in the US who also happen to be Christians. How can you know that God exists, yet succumb yourself to secular courts? Islam enforces sharia law because they believe that Allah exists. It makes sense. You guys are worse than leaves blowing in the wind.

Secular court is where we address secular issues. The issue of God's existence is beyond the court. A day is coming when we all will stand before the judgement throne of God to give account of our lives. That's when those who are doubting will have no excuse to doubt again(but rather too late).

Spiritual realm and physical realm are wide apart. God is a spirit, we worship him in spirit and in truth. As long as you don't want to identify with the spiritual you can't understand us and you can't understand God.

Like I said before, nothing makes what you don't believe non-existent.

Feel free to make your choice and may God help you to make a wise choice. Amen.

finofaya: What your position equates to is that evil is a more powerful force than good. That is the only way to explain burning a person forever for an act of evil he has committed. For if God was equally good and evil (or merciful and wrathful) then consequences would be equal to their causes. Even more so where God is said to be predisposed to doing good.
Infact, born again christians will the tell you that his mercy is greater(because the are walking on that past while sinners will the you that hidwrath is great
But we find that people go to hell for telling lies, no matter the gravity of the lie.

What you say about God may be true, but only if God is more wrathful than he is merciful. More evil than he is good.

Not that I'm holding him accountable tho. It's his nature, and he has no power over it.

This is not a matter of his wrath being more than his mercy. Both are equal It is your choice that places you on the path you ll head to. Sin places you on the path of his wrath while repentance places you on the part of his mercy. In his mercy your conscience will always alert and plead with you that you ve sinned and should repent.

Its not as if God picks people and places them on the path of his wrath. It is your choice and your choice is entirely on you to control, not on God.

Weah96: This is too easy. Doesn't it ever occur to you that these answers are a bit too easy? 'God did it' cannot be used as evidence in a normal court of law. It's better to plead ignorance or IDK.

You don't have any reasonable case to make against my points. We are talking about a being who existed before creation(including your law court) and you are telling me about your law court
You don't believe in the spiritual realm while I believe and experience it so we are wide apart. Nothing states that what you don't believe doesn't exist.
The problem you have is that you want me to reason God outside the bible just like you as an atheist. Its not possible. You are an atheist and you decided to reason God outside the bible by choice. I am a christian and I decided to reason about God from biblical background by choice too. Nothing makes your choice more superior than mine. You don't drag me to reason in the line of your background. No sir.

The answer to the God question might be as easy as I have stated(or even much easier). Nothing states that it must be tough as you want me to believe.

This thread is not restricted to only those with atheistic view so park well.

Before creation there was no beginning and no end. No time, no day and no night. It was God that created the beginning ( read genesis 1: 1 to the end), he also created time by creating day and night. God may be the infinite(I.e. The no beginning and no ending) that was in place before the beginning. And that infinite may have power/energy, ominipresence, omnipotent, omniscient, wrath, mercy, feeling etc as what constitutes his attributes/nature.

Now names and description of things originated first from God. For example- water is called water because God called it water in creation(or whatever it is in the original language). Man is called man because God Called us man. Trees, birds, light, etc are called these things because God called them that. What if that infinite that existed before creation(with all the attributes) is what he in one word called God or Yahweh etc. ?

We cannot therefore give a complete or perfect description of how God looks. Creating us in his own image may not neccessarily mean he has exactly the same shape like us. Creating us in his likeness may have much to do with some of his characteristics (I.e. We can love, talk, see, feel bad when offended or when things go wrong, feel good when things go right, , hear, move, think,make choices and decisions, create etc like him; though in limited form). His appearance is definitely not exactly same as ours. His is more gllorified. Much more than we can imagine.

That's my little thought o.

macof: What's your idea of God??
A SuperBeing that performs magic or a,Spirit that constitutes all in existence??

God is a spirit and a suprer being who cannot change his nature. The creator of heaven and earth. He is not a magician.

macof: this is a failed analogy.

If a parent tells the child not to marry a bad wife for the consequence is beyond the parents control...how can you equate this to...God tells a man not to steal for the consequence are God's to give

It all boils down to God dishing out the punishment himself

The conseequence boils down to the same thing we have been discoursing here- God's wrath.

Wrath is his attributes which he doesn't have control over to change. These attributes are eternal. He didn't develop them as a result of his creation rather those attributes were there before creation and it is a combination of these eternal attributes that make him GOD.

Genesis 1:1 says- " in the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth etc. Which means he was already a God before creating. It wasn't creation that made him God. In this regard, those attributes that made him God had already been there before creation and he cannot change those attributes because of creation.

The best he has done (which is what he can do) is to make a way out so that people will escape this other side of him(eternal wrath). If God had the power to wipe out his attributes he wouldn't have bothered sacrificing Jesus. He would ve expunged that attribute(wrath) from him. But bros, he can't even do it. Malachi 3:6 says I am God, I change not (these is part of the things that constitue his being as a God-unchangeable nature). If he changes his nature he is no more God.

You see how selfish human can reason? We want God to change for us rather than us changing for him. Can you imagine the clay trying to mould the potter? Not possible bro. Its the potter that moulds the clay.

finofaya: Lol @ redemption plan.

See, I still don't know why you think God, who is equally good and evil, or merciful and wrathful to quote you, would have a predisposition for good or mercy. I see enough evidence in the world to suspect that this not the case.

This redemption plan. If his motives are not suspect, why would God in claiming to show mercy to man come up with a redemption plan that involves destroying more people than it saves? It is entirely possible for God to show us mercy and unleash his wrath on any number of things to spare us. Things like plants, microbes, other animals and even property (stars and planets. Destruction of property is evil). Why should his wrath be unleashed on the one thing that is capable of experiencing the most intense suffering, if he is not 'impolite'?

My dear God is a creator. A creator has a concept of what he wants to create at a particular point in time. God created the living things and the non living things. And each of the things he created under this two distinctions have their uniqueness.

In the case of man, his concept was to have a being that will be in his image with higher ability to choose and make decisions etc(than the animals).

Having created that, the next reaonable thing to do for a being you gave such a freewill will is to inform him of the consequences of his choices. And God has always done this from the beginning. He has always warned man on the consequences of his choice right from the garden of Eden.

A little example could be this- A son grows up and ready for marriage, the parents calls him and tells him the consequences of choosing a bad woman for a wife. If the boy goes and choose a bad woman he suffers the consequence. You don't blame the parents again. They played their part as parents. Same way God has been warning us on the consequences of choosing the way that leads to his wrath(which is eternal). You don't blame him for the choice anybody makes. Salvation is too cheap so nobody can say he didn't accept it because of the high cost.

Liveair: The Israelites were told that the Promised land was flowing with Milk and Honey. Have they found them?

Friend, those people disobeyed God and that altered the plan. Three days journey turned to 40 years because of their disobedience. God always told them that if they obeyed him they enjoy and if they don't, they suffer. The cases you are seeing in the bible are a cases of those who are following God and learning his ways(with all the mistakes and correction).

The one of heaven is a case of those who have been redeemed and has followed God successfuly by his grace in their life time and now they are receiving their eternal reward(note the word eternal).

The two scenarios are not the same.

Let me still repeat this-

Again, God will never allow anything that will rubbish his sacrifice for our redemption. If there would be such a thing then God wouldn't have needed to make this greatest sacrifice. Even Jesus wouldn't have accepted it. The cross is our solid hope.

God has told us that there shall be no sorrow, pain death, tears etc in heaven and that it is FOREVER. His promises to us about heaven are eternal as he said it. What you are thinking is different.

Again, God will never allow anything that will rubbish his sacrifice for our redemption. If there would be such a thing then God wouldn't have needed to make this greatest sacrifice. Even Jesus wouldn't have accepted it. The cross is our strong hope.

macof: Since you believe Lucifer is real..pls show us where Lucifer committed evil.

Frankly evil as nothing to do with a satan People are just too attached to the idea of a good God that they created the character of satan
Lucifer is a Latin word, how can Jews be speaking Latin in 700BC that the book of Isaiah was supposedly written

Bro I'm a christian so whatever I'm discussing about God will still not be out of the biblical background. An atheist can discuss God outside the bible and that's for the person. But not to draw me to reason outside the bible with him. He decided to reason outside the bible by choice and I decided to reason within the bible and that's by choice too.

Having said that, let me answer you about lucifer. He committed sin by wanting to overthrow God. Its an act of pride, greed and treason. God's wrath was pulled out by such a negative act and he cursed lucifer. The curse further placed him on the part of evil and creating evil.

This boils down to what I said that wrath produces evil while mercy produces good.

finofaya: @alexleo, @chrisviral

Also, 'mercy' and 'wrath' are not the same as 'good' and 'evil'. I think you left the issue and started talking something else.

They are all connected bro.
Mercy produces good while wrath produces evil.

finofaya: @alexleo, @chrisviral

You guys sef. Are you not bothered that God's mercy and wrath are outside his control? .

Like I said earlier, I like the way you make your points.

Now, based on the above, I may agree with you. And I will say that it is because God cannot expunge any of his attributes that he made a way of escape for man concerning his wrath.

Its like God saying to man- hey my people, I am a loving God and also a God of wrath, and these attributes of mine are eternal. I don't even have the power to wipe out or expunge any of them from me. The highest and best I can do for you people is to make a way of escape from my wrath for you hence the sacrificing of my son. I made this way of escape so cheap. As cheap as embracing the redemption plan by believing on my son Jesus Christ.

Its love that made God to make a way of escape for us over what he cannot expunge(wrath) hence John 3:16. The redemption plan has always been refered to as the greatest display of God's love for man in the scripture.

There is no place in the bible that duration in lake of fire was used to measure God's love. Its false teachers who preaches with sentiments that will always use his love to measure his wrath by asking us how a loving God will burn people in the lake of fire.

Its the redemption plan that is used in measuring the height of God's love in the bible not duration of lake of fire.

Based on this submission, I don't need to bother myself with the fact that God cannot expunge this attribute(wrath) since he made a way of escape for us. I would ve been so bothered if God had not made a way of escape for us knowing he has this eternal attribute(wrath). My duty now is to simply embrace the redemption plan which of course is too simple to do and without cost.

chrisviral: Wow! That's a new perspective!
Yeah yeah I get you now...
In order words, the day the woman divorces the husband she stops bearing the name, I get the picture, so to say our been continually in heaven still exhibits God's mercy, the day He stops showing the Mercy, we stop been in heaven! Wow, the absence of his wrath is the end of hell... Nice!
Thanks bro!

Yeah that's the point.

I always like to discuss issues about God's attributes with an open mind. Its been great discussing with you. Thanks so much.

chrisviral: Alexleo

The only place I cants seem to reconcile and I want us to discuss is...
When the perfect Heaven must have come to place, where all humans are perfect and then who who didn't pass the judgement of God are in hell, HOW THEN WILL GOD SHOW HIS MERCY?

*remember we will be like new slates there.

Thanks dear. I got your points clearly and both of us really agree.

For the point above concerning the eternal existence of his mercy, I will say that our being in heaven as a result of being saved by God's grace and mercy is an etermal manifestation of his mercy. (I mean till eternity, our presence in heaven will never cease to be a manifestation of his mercy). We didn't inherit heaven by our own power or our own righteousness or our own merit. Its by God's mercy/grace.

Let me give this little analogy. A woman marries and changes her surname but nothing will make her cease to exist as the daughter of her father even though her surname has changed and she is now answering somebody's wife. (I don't know if you understood my point here).

Again, the eternal damnation and eternal life all together manifests his mercy eternally. I mean the fact that some people are going through eternal torment while some others are enjoying eternal bliss manifests mercy(I mean the dividing line is mercy). .

spiritfada: For the Catholic faithful, this piece of news will definitely be hard to stomach: Pope Francis says he has only two or three years to live.
Although the Argentina-born Pontiff was silent on why he thinks he would not live for more than three years, he hinted that he had ‘some nerve problems’ which require treatment.
He spoke with journalists aboard his jet as he returned from a trip to South Korea.
Francis, according to the Mailonline on Tuesday, also mentioned the possibility of retiring from the Papacy if his health failed to cope with the rigours of his office.
His predecessor, Benedict XVI, stepped down last year, in an unprecedented move that opened the way for Francis to become the Pope.
“I see it as the generosity of the people of God. I try to think of my sins, my mistakes, not to become proud. Because I know it will last only a short time,” the pope said.
Then, apparently light-heartedly, he added, “Two or three years and then I’ll be off to the Father’s house.”
A Vatican source, said the Mailonline had claimed that the Pope had previously told those close to him that he thought he only had a few years to live.
Although Francis is 77, he has been the most vigorous Pope in years, his energy proving the key to his popularity.
His frank admission may lead commentators to speculate as to whether he has any undisclosed health problems.
At the time of his elevation to the Papacy, reports emerged that Francis had a lung removed when he was a teenager in Argentina after suffering an infection.
The Mailonline quoted Dr. William Schaffner, chairman of preventive medicine at Vanderbilt University Medical Centre in Nashville, Tennessee in United States, to have said, “So whatever they did got him over that precarious period. As people age, they generally become more susceptible to lung infections, such as pneumonia and bronchitis.”
The risk of lung infections increases if those affected have pre-existing conditions such as a weakened immune system or heart disease.
But Francis joked about the nervous problems, saying, “I must treat them well, these nerves, give them mate (an Argentine stimulant tea) every day.”
“One of these neuroses, is that I’m too much of a homebody,” he added and recalled that the last time he had taken a holiday outside of Argentina was with the Jesuit community in 1975.
Resigning the papacy, as his predecessor Benedict XVI did last year, was also a possibility “even if it does not appeal to some theologians”, Francis told the journalists.
He added that 60 years ago, it was practically unheard of for Catholic bishops to retire, but nowadays it was common.
As the jet travelled through the airspace, Francis also addressed the issues surrounding the Catholic Church in China, a country which refuses to allow Catholics to officially recognise the spiritual leadership of the Vatican.
Since the communist revolution, Catholicism, like all religions, has been permitted to operate only under the supervision of the State Administration for Religious Affairs.
Clerics who resisted this had been subjected to oppression, including long imprisonment torture and even martyrdom.
Pope Francis told the journalists he wanted dialogue with China and the only thing he asked in return was for the Catholic Church to be able to operate freely.
Source: http://www.punchng.com/news/i-have-two-or-three-years-to-live-pope-francis/

God will keep him. I like this man. The best pope in recent past. He wont die and he wont retire soonHe is doing a lot of reformations in the catholic church and God will keep him to finish what he has started and forgive his sins. Grant him heaven at last.Amen.

^^^^This is why those who preach that there is no eternal torment or that the lake of fire will not burn forever as the bible said are false preachers. Wrath is an attribute of God and its eternal too like his other attributes. lake of fire is a manifestation of his wrath where those who fall short of his judgment will finally end up.

If God wipes away lake of fire as the false teachers preach, it means there will be nothing like God's wrath in existence again since what will remain then is a perfect new heaven and new earth (and this means God has changed). Of course he cant manifest his wrath in such a perfect, peaceful and sinless place? And according to the scripture, the new heaven and the new earth will remain like that(no room for evils and troubles there as it was in the first heaven and first earth).

The only place that God's wrath will manifest at that time is in the lake of fire. And since this attribute(wrath) of God is eternal therefore its going to be an eternal damnation as the scripture said it. Those who are being sentimental in preaching that God is too loving to allow people burn forever in hell are not having a balanced view of God. They are just deceiving themselves. God has said it that he cannot change. Its either people believe it totally or disbelief it totally. No middle ground.

If someone believes that wrath can cease to exist in him, then it means the person is saying that love and his other attributes can cease to exist in him. Thats a false teaching. I am the lord, I change not. Thats his word and i believe it totally

finofaya: Perhaps he is the creator of the universe. But there are certain things that God could not have created, for the mere fact that they are part and parcel of him. At whatever point it was that he sprang into existence, he sprang with these things. If he is eternal, these things are also eternal. I'm talking of his essential attributes, such as omnipotence, omnipresence, etc. He could not have created his omnipotence, for example. I think his goodness or otherwise are part of these essential attributes; he is said to be omnibenevolent after all.

To my mind, these are things that he has no control over. He did not choose to be omnipresent. He did not choose to be all good. But since there is no good without evil, then there is evil and the evil is equally out of his control. So he cannot be the one to decide what is or is not evil.

But you say he is the benchmark. No wahala.

Yeah i also have this believe that God didnt develop any of his attributes after creation because he said that he changes not. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. And yes those attributes are those you ve mentioned.

Mercy is also one of his attributes and without sin his mercy cant manifest. Infact the word mercy would ve sounded strange to man.
Wrath is his attribute and without sin his wrath cannot manifest. The word wrath would ve sounded meaningless to us.
I too have that believe in me that God can never wipe out this attributes in him since he said he changeth not. Just like you said i also think he does not have power to change because its a combination of this unchangeable attributes that makes him God.

In the light of this, your submissions are not out of the track rather it calls for more thoughts and studies so as to arrive at a convincing conclusion. You might be right after all. Honesty i like your reasoning and aproach to this issue and that of @Chrisviral. It is more eductating and makes more sense than the nonsense that atheists usually say.

finofaya: I guess both of you believe that a thing is good or evil because God says it is. And that God is good because he says he is good.

That's okay.

I am looking at God from what the bible said about him. God is the creator of the whole universe. Definitely he is the one that can define creation best. If i create something, then nobody can define it better than me. Also its me that will name what i created and whatever i call it is what it will be called.

Xcapist: A really long read. But there were points that got me really laughing (not in a patronising way, they were genuinely funny).
I have a question though, can Jesus save us from this alleged place of anguish and gnashing of teeth?

Yes Jesus is the only one that can save you just only on one ground- your choice.

chrisviral: Let me note a verse in the bible
"I have given before you the power of life and death, a curse and a blessing, that you may choose one but I advice you to choose life that you and your children may live"

That explains it all.
I have said God is everything, he knows everything, he created everything( whatsoever your mind thinks of right now, he knows it) And just like him, he made you, with the power to do good or evil, all you have to do is choose!

Why should I trust Him?
Well I trust because he created me (I mean why will he create me, give me an instruction only to fail me, doesn't sound right).
I trust him his Word is Amen, it's always the same, he never lies (Infact even if he lies, they turn to truth)
Oxford dictionary never goes wrong not because there are no wrong words there but because they are the originator of words, so is God he can't lie because what he says is the Law.
Again I trust him because all through my sojourn in life and even in the Bible, I have never heard that he failed anyone not at all!

Beautiful submission here. God bless you plenty.

finofaya: Thanks. I know you're not.

God may not be evil. But if you say he is good, and has always been, then you should show where evil has always been.

The origin of sin is from lucifer. First, a desire to take the place of God(which is pride) then it developed into rebellion, then the curse from God which pushed him further into evil. I think we can say that it is God that defined evil.(I mean its what he called evil that is evil). Also the tree of knowledge of good and evil was also created by him according to Genesis 2:9. Somehow you made some sense in your opinion about God and @Chrisviral that said that God is everything before creation also made sense.

finofaya: That's why I'm asking how good he is. He deals out good and evil in equal measure.

According to the scriputure, God's love is great and his wrath is great. I don't think that the bible said that his love is greater than his wrath or vice versa so I think both are equal. I think its his wrath that you are refering to as evil. God is not evil.

N.B you are making some reasonable points so its not as if I'm attacking your points. I'm just trying to reason with you. Thanks.

MizMyColi:

Cool

Well, first off, I've come to realise that the christianity that's being practiced today inspires fear in people, instead of faith.

I believe in the GodHead, yet I do not think of myself as a christian.

Every belief I have that isn't centred in Love must be discarded

I believe that truth is truth, no matter who says it or where it is found.

I believe that God is love, light and life and that he's too big for one religion to claim monopoly of Him

Life and Love is my religion.

*Gotta hit the sheets now though*

You don't believe in the truth rather you are afraid of the truth. Your belief or non belief does not change what is on ground. Same goes for all of us.

finofaya: I've been wondering what is meant by a good God.




God is good.

Okay.

The problem here is that "good" is meaningless without "evil". In order for good to exist, evil must exist, since a thing can only be good in relation to another thing.

Christians will say that God is good and man introduced evil after the fall. Or perhaps it was the fall of Lucifer that introduced evil. Either way, what it means is that God became good at the point of the introduction of evil. Before then, he was good in relation to what? Nothing. So he could not have been good.

In order for God to be good from the on set, there must have been evil somewhere, from the on set. There are four ways this could have played out:

1. God is neither good nor evil, he just is. In this case, good and evil only have meaning because we say they do. What we mean when we say something is good or evil is that we approve or do not approve of it. Nothing is objectively good or evil.

2. Assuming that one thing can be both at the same time, God is both good and evil. Good and evil exist objectively, and they are both embodied in God.

3. Assuming that nothing can be both at the same time, God is good, while another entity exists which is evil. This entity would be similar to God, (eg if God has a good personality, it would have an evil personality) in other to be the antithesis of God. Thus it should be sentient. Here, God is not responsible for the evil being. Instead something higher than both God and the evil being is responsible for both of them.

4. Still assuming that nothing can be both at the same time, God is evil, while another entity exists which is good. And something else is responsible for both of them.

Which one is obtainable? I have no idea. I could even be entirely wrong.

Any ideas?

We can only define God(in our own little way) based on the attributes provided in the scripture.

God is merciful God. Without sin his mercy can't manifest.
God is a God of wrath. Without sin his wrath cannot manifest.

All these makes the fall of lucifer look like a pre-planned thing- to make these nature of God to manifest.

God did not develop mercy because of sin. He changes not. Mercy has been his nature. Wrath has been his nature too. He never developed wrath because of sin. He changes not.

handysuzy: Following....following

You are not following anything. If you were following you would ve know that the convention has already been declared closed in page 4.

Now go back to the beginning and start reading the presentations made by the different teachers.

cirmuell: What are we supposed to do now, we didn't even know about this.

Next time don't limit your visit to nairaland to romance section only
Visit the religion section too.

Following...... and I really enjoy what I'm seeing here. Will make contribution if any much later. Still very busy since this week. God bless the presenters. Amen.

@DrummaBoy, Goshen360 and presenters, are we free to post any of the prentations elsewhere or print it and share to people? That's my question for now.

I wish to thank Goshen360 and DrummaBoy for the open approach which they adopted in this year's convention. This is a clear departure from the one sided method of selection applied last year. People with different doctrinal stands were accommodated and this is how unity starts. God bless you both.

I quite appreciate all your effort since the beginning of this thread till now. I personally look forward to the presentations and pray that God will use the presenters in a mighty way. I also want to plead with those who refused to be part of this based on the long drawn battle over some differences in our biblical teachings to pls have a rethink and participate in this conference by contributing to presentations.

There is time for everything. Time to disagree and time to agree. i think this is time to agree and make successful input in this conference. Those who feel offended in anyway should forgive and move forward. We are still brethren irrespective of our differences. God bless us all. Amen.

musKeeto: That's all we need to know.

Where have you been nwokem?

Frosbel appearrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Even Jesus knew he will die yet he never committed suicide and he never prayed for death to come. Likewise we all know we ll die some day but we aint gonna commit suicide or pray for death. Wjen Elijah prayed for death God did not grant his prayer rather God told him there is more work ahead. We are here on a mission, when our work is done here death will surely come. It is God that owns our lives not us so we have no right to take it away. .The main thing for us is to be heaven+ready at all times. May God help us. Amen.

@OP,

John 4:23

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

All individuals who are worshipping God in spirit and in truth(whether they are in Deeper Life, JW. Roman Catholic, Winners. Apostolic Faith, Christ Embassy, RCCG etc. ) as Jesus said above are true worshippers. The church that Jesus established was not a denomination or a building with a corporate name as we see. Don't be deceived.