₦airaland Forum

Apatheist: My point exactly! But his creations, made in his image are visible, while he's invisible.
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Yes he created us in his image. He is a spirit and therefore invisiblle. He created us physical with his spirit (life) in us. Like I said, nowhere was his shape described to us in the bible. We only know him by his characterisics( love mercy, creativity, emotions, talks, hears, ability to choose and make decisions, excercise authority and leadership etc) and all these are found in man (though with limits).

Creating us in his image has much to do with these attributes of him than shape and appearance since he is invisible and we can't really tell how he looks. .

A little example of this is- man can create a robot in his image but it doesn't mean that the robot will be 100 percent like man. There will still be differences and linitations. That's what differentiates you and what you ve created.

Our creator is definitely far more glorious, powerful and greater than us.

Apatheist: I don't feel any creator.

That's for you. I feel the creator and billions of others feel him. Again I say, nothing makes what you ve not experienced non-existent.

Apatheist: . I ask again: What is the need for faith?

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Faith is needful to us as much as unbelief is to you.

Apatheist: Define "us"
I, and about 2 billion people don't believe. Other religions with billions of adherents don't believe in your god.
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Us means all those who believe that there is a creator. Whatever name or religion they attach to him is a different issue from my point.
We are all talking about the same thing- the source of creation. But the difference lies in our understanding of him and ways we relate to him.

Even people of the same church or the same muslim etc have some differences too in their understanding of him. That's human. We can't understand him totally with our limited mind. He is infinite. .

Apatheist: I want to find out how/why/if your god is the true god.

Commune with him with an unbiased mind. He is invisible. He is everywhere. You don't even need to attach him to any religion. Just talk to him as the creator and tell him you want to feel his presence in your life. If you are sincere, you will witness him.

Many atheists that converted to christianity started out with him as the creator. They had several encounter with him under no religion. It was after some time that they got their convictions and joined christianity. Banom is one example here in nairaland. You can start out same way under no religion or denomination and enjoy your fellowship with him. Wherever he leads you pls go. Thanks.

dorox: If we accept the premise on which you made your argument as true, that is; if God exists, there is source behind his existence, then it will also be true that there is a source behind the source of God's existence, and a source behind the source that is behind the source of God's existence, and on and on indefinitely. My mathematics was just a way of showing that this will lead us back to the idea that God has no beginning.

Thanks. And that's why I said that it is the totality of everything that surrounds his exIstence that makes him what he is.

Apatheist: And you had "an encounter" with this "source" of yours because you had "faith" correct?
Do you need faith to see the effect of electric current? FYI, we can manipulate electric current without needing"faith"
Do you need "faith" to breathe air?
Why then do you need faith to have this encounter?

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And yes you don't need faith to see the impact of electricity the impact of electricity or air. You also don't need faith to see the impact of the creator. His creations are everywhere(including You and I).

We don't see the air but we feel it. We don't see the electric current but we can feel the shock. We don't see the creator but we can feel him in us too. Everything mentioned here still works within us. The faith you are talking about works within us. Its still about us. Like I said, nothing says that what you ve not experienced is non existent.

Apatheist: " I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us
knowledge which we can attain by them." -- Galileo Galilei

And of course christIanity did not say you shouldn't use your senses and reasons. It tells you how you can relate wIth your maker. Its now left for you as a person to follow those steps. And if you see that the step is working out, the most reasonable and sensible thing to do is to continue on that path. That's part of making use of your senses and reasons and this is what has kept billions of christians across the globe on this path for centuries.

Apatheist: Exactly! We agree on something.
How then do you say the source-- or god-- of others aren't true, that only yours is true?
You aren't allowed to reference scripture, because their scripture negates yours, just as yours negates them
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One common factor amongst us is that we believe in the creator(source of creation). He is invisible, we can't describe his shape. The differences lies on how we relate with him. Of course every relgion will tell you that their own way of relating with him is the best. Its now left for you as an indvidual to find out for yourself which one is the true way. Surely all the various ways being presented by the various groups cannot all be true but there must be a true way. Its still you that must find it for yourself.

Apatheist: This is not the case, my friend.
Do you know how islands are formed?
They're formed by/from volcanic eruptions.
Would you say that a volcano is creative?

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My friend everything still zeros down to the the source. The volcano and island you are talking about is operating on something(the earth) that originated from a source. It is that central source(God, for us as christians) that we are talking about.

I don't argue about the existence of the creator(God) with people.. For me its a closed case. So if that's what you are up for, I'm not there for you. Thanks.

pesty100: The purpose of this thread isn't to ask for the source but the source of the source itself

The source here is a total package. Everything that surrounds it is what makes It the source. That is the way am viewinng the issue. And of course we cannot know everything that surrounds it. But the basic thing is that creation came out from a source.

Apatheist: "The invisible and imaginary look very much alike"

Air is invisible yet we feel it and also see the impact. Electric current is invisible yet we see its effect on our appliances. When u also touch a live wire u feel the shock of the current. God (you can call him source of creation if you like) is invisible yet we see his creative work. Those of us who have had encounter with him feels his presence within us. Nothing states that what you have not experienced or encountered does not exist.

Apatheist: So your god is a human?
If you can't see or analyze this "source" how do you know it has emotions? is it how a puppet "manifests" emotions and speech in the hands of a ventriloquist?

I am talking about the source of creation. For such a source that creation came from, it has characteristics of which creativity is one of them. If the source can be creative why should you rule out the fact that there are other attributes attached to the source? Does it take nothing to be creative?

For a source through which creatures with emotions etc came out from, you can't just rule out things just like that.

You are looking at the source as a man. And as a being In your exact appearance. That's not what I'm looking at.

Whichever way anyone wants to look at it, the truth remains that creation started from a source. That source is what is being described in various forms. For us as christians that source is God/yahweh/ Jehova etc. For you that source is big bang. For a muslim that source is Allah, for some others that source is energy, force, intelligent designer.etc.

None of us can really describe the shape of that source because the source is invisible. What the bible gave us is the character of the source, not the shape.

For me I believe that such a source through which this wonderful, intelligent, beautiful, magnificient and mysterious thing called creation came from must be a source to reckon with. A lively and active source. A source with characteristics/attributes of which creativity. Is one of them.

That source remains more powerful, more glorious and far greater than we the created. For us as christians we refer to that source as God etc

pesty100: The theologians belives the World was created by God... how did that God come to be?.........

God is the source of creation. And of course the source of creation may be invisible to the pysical eyes but cannot be lifeless.

Some refer to that source as a force, some refer to the source as energy, the bible refers to the source as God.

We can't say exactly the shape of that source yet the source, though invisible, has characteristIcs/attributes. We describe God(as chrIstians) based on his attributes that are manifest- ( creator, love, mercy. Wrath etc).

This just my own views o. We can't know everything about God for eternity.

The question here is- how does God look. By this i mean in appearance. Does he have the same shape and features like ours?
does he feel what we feel. Pls provide honest answer expecially emotioms , pain etc

When he said- let us make man in our own image, does it really mean physical appearance or spiritual or attributes
gi e honest answers to me. This thread is strictly for those who believe in God believe in God thank you.

Liveair: Others who don't believe it or even have anything to do with it have also proved its irrelevance to their lives and families.

Whatever anyone chooses thats for the person. We will all face the outcome of our choice at the end of the day.

Liveair: That's the problem. No body said you should reason like an atheists. No one said you should be on the same boat either. All we are saying is that you reason with your educated brain, considering the FACTUAL EVIDENCES provided for you so far.
You have all along believed things you were told without asking questions that's why its hard now.

I have tried, just wish you could really see bro.

Not really because I was told but I ve proved the bible over and over in my life. In my family too and around me. That's why I strongly believe it. Cheers.

macof: Then you should also keep your Bible to yourself and stop shoving Jewish/Roman mythology to Africans here

Liveair: And who says the bible is a standard?
Same way its his research, your Jewish bible is also some peoples' traditional research so keep it to yourself.

Liveair: See how macof's post seems meaningless to you? Exactly same way is your biblical theory MEANINGLESS to others like him.
Your guide - the bible, is flawed in many areas.
Others also claim reality and experiences of different understandings too.
You can also be told, KEEP YOUR RELIGION TO YOURSELF AND THOSE WHO CARE FOR FABLES.

I wasn't making my point to convince you but to state the biblical standard about what you raised. We are two parallel lines that can never meet. I dont care about being on the same boat with an atheist on issues about God. I cannot reason like an atheists. Whatever i am reasoning about God must not be outside the bible. One or two persons may have benefited out there and thats okay for me than keeping quiet for your lies to confuse them.

N.B Pls I dont feel bad at all with any of you even though we dont agree. I enjoyed the whole chatting. If you bring up another interesting point i ll still make input from my biblical background. So keep a free heart o. I like you guys. I really do. Cheers.

Gombs: Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves (Jude 1:8-10) .

There’s a remarkable lesson for us to learn from the attitude of Michael the archangel, when he disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. Michael, with all his power and glory, couldn’t dare bring an accusation against Satan, an evil personality. This was because he recognized that Satan had Adamic authority, which is higher than angelic authority. Adam lost his authority to Satan when he ate of the fruit God had instructed him not to.

As a result, Michael could only rebuke Satan in the Name of the Lord, a higher authority. This is very instructive on how we’re to relate to spiritual authority as God’s children. You should never criticize, dishonor or speak against those whom the Lord has placed in positions of authority. That’s the way I’ve lived; I don't say things against God’s people, especially ministers of the Gospel, because they carry the authority of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:12 says, “And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you.” Some people in the church have authority over you in the Lord, and they must be honoured as such.

Sadly, there’re some in the Church who believe they’re smarter than their pastors, and are always wanting to “advise” or instruct them on how to run the affairs of the church. This is wrong. You must remain submitted to spiritual authority in order to walk in the power of the Spirit, and fulfill the call of God on your life.

Bro, the major problem in Christianity is that people worship pastors and this is totally wrong. Yea i do not support insult against pastors or anybody.

Jesus never told us to insult anybody rather he taught us to love so lets not make it look as if pastors are the only ones that shouldnt be insulted. What it means is that pastors should not insult members and members should not insult pastors. It is a general thing.

What should exist between us all as brethren is love that is the new commandment that Christ gave us before he left this world. And it is in the spirit of love that we are advised how to restore any man among the brethren who is at fault ( including pastors)

Galatians 6:1.

6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.


The above is an admonition given to brethren so that we all can bear one another burden. There is no exception made here concerning restoring the erring brethren/man.

We should be careful with the over-bloated reverence we give to pastors in our present day Christianity. It doesnt help them at all rather it instills pride in them and make them feel incorrigible. This is highly dangerous for them. They are still human like any of us. Lets not forget that GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS.

We never saw the disciples of Jesus trembling before Jesus all the time the way people do to their pastors these days. They had a very friendly and normal relationship with him and they questioned whatever he said or taught or did which they did not understand. And each time they questioned him Christ took time to explain issues. It got to a point that Jesus had to call them his friends.

Even the apostles in their ministries avoided being worshiped or given over bloated reverence. Lets take this case study in Acts 14:11-16

11 Now when the people saw what Paul had done, they raised their voices, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!” 12 And Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 Then the priest of Zeus, whose temple was in front of their city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, intending to sacrifice with the multitudes.

14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,

But in our days we see some pastors enjoy being over reverenced and worshiped like God. Thats why you see them creating big/intimidating titles for themselves.

Bro, speaking against the erring practices of our pastors have two sides. One side of it could be an insult depending on the mindset of the person who is speaking and the language he is using and that is the one that i dont support. But the other side of it is a call to duty as instructed us in Galatians 6;1 that i quoted up there. In this case its not about the pastor but about restoring our brethren who are being deceived by this wrong acts of the pastor. Remember, most brethren see anything that pastor did as the right thing so we still have a duty as commanded by the scripture to restore them by speaking out(in meekness though). Not just prayer. Its not all about the pastor here sir. Its more about the deceived brethren. Pastor is just one man so he can continue with whatever if he chooses but i have a duty to restore my fellow brethren.

macof: Smh

How people can't use their gift of intelligence these days

1. Lucifer doesn't exist,
not only does the name mean "morning star" in Latin, which Jews don't speak. It is also not a character of Jewish beliefs.
where did Christians get Lucifer from
The Romans are sly bastrds I tell you

It is also impossible for spirits to feel greed, and all that you ascribe Lucifer.
Emotions are things of living organisms, even among organic beings not all seem to possess this basic emotions of humans

And then it's impossible to rebel against the consciousness of the universe(which is God)
Everything is just one big body, how can the legs rebel against the head??


2. Man's only law is to be human...keep your humanity and make use of it.
There are many things that make up the human essence but lets summarize it to: the body and brain power...this two are what we need to fulfil how mission on earth and return to where we came

3. There's no curse, there's only nature.
The world is a place of ups and downs, the beautiful nd the ugly.
ur heaven won't stop human life from being human life or the world from being the world.

This is more of your theory and its meaningLess to me. My guide is the bible and I ve experienced the reality of the bible ssverally.you can Keep your theories to yoursself and those who care.

Liveair: I have made my point I think. I can't force you to learn something that is too glaring to ignore.

And i ve made my point too. I cant force you to learn something that is too glaring.

LandLord1: Nice...I have learned certain things from chrisviral and alexleo, but couldn't understand where macof stands. All the same. WHAT A THREAD.

Thanks dear.

Liveair: No more conditions in heaven? I laugh.
What is the tree of life there for and of what use is its "healing bringing leaves"?

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All the troubles we are having in the world came as a result of the rebellion of lucifer and disobedience of man which brought curse upon these entities and the earth.

In heaven there will be no more curse. And this means there will be no condition that ll bring curse again.

Read Revelations 22:3

3 And there shall be NO MORE CURSE: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Liveair: Oh, ok, at what point and where did Israel see the Milk and Honey AT ALL? Don't tell me the land was spiritual 'cos Abraham was physically shown Canaan.

Numbers 13:26,27

26 And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land.

27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.

Liveair: This should get you thinking;
the "promised land" occupied by Israel is actually less than 1/3 of what was promised them.
If you are promised something, then asked to go through painful circumcision at 99yrs, offer sacrifices and asked to relocate, yet you don't see its fulfilment, of what benefit has it been to you .

You and I know that there are certain benefits that children enjoy which comes as a result of their father's labour, meanwhile the man that laboured for it is dead. Its not a strange thing in life.

Moreover, Abraham lived a very fulfilled life. Was very rich, he saw his son Isaac and the son by the other woman. He enjoyed his walk with God and fulfilled God's requirement of him. He didn't complain. Why are you drinking panadol over what should ve been his headache?(Meanwhile it wasn't a headache to him) You ve not even made more achievement and fame than Abraham and here you are worrying yourself over him. Na wa for una.

Liveair: Moreover, his descendants had to endure over 400years of slavery and keep over 150 laws, and fight endless battles, all for a land they expected to flow with milk and honey.
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Isreal always had a part to play in order to have God's promises fulfilled in their liVes. You can't force God to do things your way. They kept failing, thereby prolonging its fulfillment. That's a mortal man and his imperfection.

Revelation 13:8 says -

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The above scripture shows that God knew that the man he created with freewill can make wrong choice hence the redemption plan he made right from the foundation of the world.

In the light of the above, we can't say that man's fall took God by unawares. So when the scripture said that God repented that he made man it can't really be looked at from the point of someone who was taken unawares and is regreting.

And as I said before, God cannot be happy that people are choosing wrongly.

chrisviral: I don't think it's really God's plan for his children to burn eternally, that's why he sent his Son.
See God is un-changeable, a feature like that comes with great responsibility, for God to think something and rethink it at another time, is changeable, which he can't do.

I think God thought of Hell and Gbam! Hell appeared for sinners, and he was oh why children, what have you made me do, and he repented why he created Man, that's statement is the bible was an indication that he was bittered for creating Hell for Man, so he sent his Son (he came himself) and showed you a way out to escape his anger, just believe and follow him and Hell will be empty.

Yeah you are right. God doesn't take delight in seeing humans go to hell after the redemption plan he made and his several warnings concerning the consequences of choosing sin. .

Matthew 25:41 says-

1 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Hell is a manifestation of God's wrath. God's wrath was made manifest by lucifers sin and he was cursed. By that curse hell was prepared for lucifer(devil) and his angels(those angels that joined him to rebel against God). Human beings who are going to hell are going there because they chose to follow the path of the devil.

The whole thing is like two roads as Jesus described it. One is the broad way that leads to destruction and the other is the narrow way that leads to eternal life. The road you follow is where you ll end up except you change over before you get to the end of it.

And of course God cannot be happy that people are still choosing the road to destruction after several warnings about the consequences of their choice. He wouldn't be happy that they neglated the escape route he made. He wouldn't be happy that after all the efforts he made to save people from this unchangeable nature of him(wrath) people are still choosing the way that leads to it.

Diamondpen: @op,

I think you should clearly define what you mean by good or evil because what is good for Mr A might be evil and unfortunate incidence for Mr B. I will give you an example now.

(1) Mr banker is a good loving husband, father and prays to God every morning
(2) Mr mechanics is also a family man praying for daily bread
(3) Mr panel beater is equally hoping to share from God grace
(4) Mr Doctor has spent almost 9 years of his life studying his acts and equally wants to be provided for.
(5) Mr Policeman also has family to take care of, he prays to God for mega bread

An accident occurred and got Mr Banker badly injured and his car damaged. To Mr Banker this is evil
To Mr Mechanics, Mr Panel beater, Mr Doctor, and Mr Police God has done it again.

You can see that what is evil to one is equally good to four and what is good to one can be evil to another four or more.
Meanwhile God is God for all, he must provide sustenance for all.

A good analogy here too.

deScifa: Man was not created in no image of God. God is part of everything he created cos from it everything was made.

The bible said we were created in the likeness of God. For me i think it may have to do with his attributes such as we can talk,create, reason, be happy, be sad, love etc like God(but of course with limitations as human) it may not neccessarily be that he is physically like us, with two eyes, two legs and all that. But surely is far more higher and more glorious than us in all.

deScifa: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters". Genesis 1 1-2 Meaning before God created he was only a force who was later moving around over the surface of water when he created Heaven and earth, yeah creativity might be part of him but until he created he was not a creator.

Plus who taught my dog how to remove his chain? if we have to go by the kids analogue you gave and how they handle things. Man was not created in no image of God. God is part of everything he created cos from it everything was made.

Yea i think you and i are somehow in the same school of thought here on how God was before creation. In my own school of thought too i believe that the attributes of God- goodness, wrath, mercy, omnipotent, omniscient, ominpresent, creativity etc has been part of him even before creation. When he said he changes not it means those attributes/nature were not something he developed rather it has been part of him. It is a combination of those attributes that makes him God.

Yeah i agree with you on the bold but my argument with him is that he is trying to say that God wasnt a creator but later changed and became a creator. Which means he is not unchangeable as he said(Malachi 3:6). Thats what i am trying to let him know that creativity was part of him. He decided to manifest it when he wanted. It doesnt mean he changed.

macof: God created everything yes, but before creation God was not a "creator"
Creator became a characteristic, infact became it's identity, the moment creation was underway.

So telling me God has been unchangeable with all characteristics before creation is false.

I have had my personal experience with the spirit world, my knowledge is based on my search and experience

No sir. Creativity was already in God before he created. He only put it into action when he felt the need to do that. Even we human beings are created in that creative likeness of God. Thats why you see someone faced with a challenge or problem, before you know it, his creativity comes up and he comes out with a solution. Watch your kids even as babies how they handle certain things, you ll marvel who taught them that they should do it that way at such a tiny age.

Creativity was part of God's nature before creation. The authority and wisdom with which he created the heaven and the earth and everything in it shows that creativity was part and parcel of him. The creativity in him became manifest when he started creating just like his mercy and wrath was made manifest when sin/evil came into place. Not that creativity and mercy etc has not been his attributes before.

macof: How can a spirit attempt to take over a duty that's not it's nature??

This is like saying Rocks want to take over from rainwater and start falling from the sky during storms.

Every spirit has it's nature, no spirit can attempt taking over another spirit.

Again you dont know what spirit is. Havent you seen spirit in the bible possess people and Jesus cast them out? Are you not seeing it even today in our society?

Some spirits that Jesus cast out were violent on their possessor leaving them torn and wounded(yet you are telling me that spirits cant be angry).
Read Mark 1;26 and Mark 9:26. These devils (which also are spirits) have not stopped doing that which led to their fall. They like possessing and being in control. That was what lucifer tried to do in heaven. he wanted to possess the throne of God and be in charge.

I am looking at spirit from biblical background which i consider more authentic than your analogy.

BadBoy25: based on my research On near death experiences and out of body experiences, i believe there's an option to chose evil in heaven. .

That's your research and we don't need your research. What we ll take is what the bible said. Keep your false research to yourself.

Kay17: What I see here is nothing but hopeful expectations.

Its not just a hopeful expectation rather a very sure thing. In my walk with God over the years I ve seen his word fulfill in my life, in my family, in my church and in the world at large daily. I have no double mind towards his words concerning heaven. Heaven is just the perfect place as God's word said and we are yearning to be raptured. May God help us. Amen. Join us in this heavenly journey.

frosbel: Bro, I promise to complete soon , but my work has suddenly become mega busy again. Please bear with me and thanks.

ok bro. patiently waiting. cheers.

macof: Since you know God is a spirit.

How can a spirit be overthrown from it's duties? How can a spirit curse?

Can rocks take the place of rain water??

Again you are just describing what you think a spirit is in your own little understanding. You are not a spirit so your answers are not authentic. I believe God more who says he is a spirit and says he loves us(we experience his love everyday), he is a God of wrath(we see his wrath taking place), he is a merciful God(we experience his mercy everyday) etc. Of course nobody can overthrow God though Satan attempted it, yet he failed.

macof: Firstly:
The potter is not a potter until he begins to mould clay.

God is not a creator until he began to create

And he created the the heaven and the earth and everything in it(including you and I0).

macof: Secondly: Wrath is an emotion, God is a spirit, spirits don't have emotions.
Emotions are attributes of living organisms to strive and gain higher consciousness

Who told you that spirits are not living? They are not emotional? Have you been a spirit before? God created man in his likeness- we talk, think, be happy and sad, and you are here telling me that the one who created us that way is not emotional? You are not just serious. Even man carry the spirit being within us.

Liveair: You seem not to get it! Where is the Milk and Honey?

You seem not to get it, was it promised them that the milk and honey will flow forever as in the case of what we shall enjoy in heaven forever?

Liveair: When Abram was promised an heir and inheritance of the earth, he wasn't told he wouldn't even see his grand children. He didn't know he would even painfully have to cut his manhood.

Was he also promised that he will see his grand children?

Liveair: No blessing or provision of God came without a condition and a pitfall. Heaven may not be any different.
Isn't it still humans that will be there? Why cant there be another forbidden tree to eat from?

The world is a temporary abode for us and it is clearly stated in the bible so there is no blessings of God to any of us that is eternal. Again our journey in the world is still in our imperfect state so those conditions perfect us in our walk with him but in heaven we shall be perfected so no more condition. Even Jesus clearly stated it that if we should follow him we shall suffer for his sake. The only eternal promise given to us is the promise of eternal life in heaven. And that is where we are told that we will have NO PAIN, NO TEARS, NO SORROW, NO DEATH forever and ever. Dont you get it?

You are pointing out what God did not tell Abraham that he later met on the way, how about the numerous ones he promised him and many others in the bible that he fulfilled. How about the various miracles done in the bible? Bros go find better job abeg

Weah96: You know as much as I thought I did when I was still a mental slave.

You were not sure of what you professed in those days that's why you left. I am very sure of what I believe and profess.

You are also in mental slavery of your new belief(atheism).

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