₦airaland Forum

@pilgrim.1

Babs-babs! Since you have left your arguments in the dust, is this the best you can afford to do? Rather than sweat this out, simply find out who in John's Gospel is referred to as the Comforter.

We have been through this until you sadly had to quietly and evasively see that your attempts to smuggle Muhammad into the Bible were a waste. Your answer to that one question will setle your misgivings, if you care.

Your brother raised it and you may help him out by telling me how many spirits we would be having since one was and still in existence.

@Chilla & Mdsocks

Brother, please lets knw

Salam sister. What I meant is that there is a Surah having more than one Bismillah. I am sorry for my typographical error


Maa Salam



The Messenger of Allah said, "Your stay in comparison to the stay of the nations preceding you, is like the period between Asr prayer and the sunset. The people of the Torah were given the Torah and they acted on it till midday and then they were unable to carry on. And they were given (a reward equal to) one Qirat each. Then the people of the Gospel were given the Gospel and they acted on it till Asr Prayer and then they were unable to carry on, so they were given (a reward equal to) one Qirat each. Then you were given the Quran and you acted on it till sunset, therefore you were given (a reward equal to) two Qirats each. On that, the people of the Scriptures said, 'These people (Muslims) did less work than we but they took a bigger reward.' Allah said (to them). 'Have I oppressed you as regards your rights?' They said, "No." Then Allah said, 'That is My Blessing which I grant to whomsoever I will.' "[Sahih Bukhari]


Maa Salam

@pilgrim.1

Hint: when you find the term you are asking about in John 1 v 1, ask yourself this also: did John use that same term in any other verse? If he did, who was he referring to in that (or those) verse(s)?

I have asked you a very straight forward question and try not to deflect the thread PLS.

When you finish supplying me the greek word for God in John 1 v 1, then kindly supply me the greek word for 'god' when God told Moses that he would made him 'god'

@mdsocks


Salam. I love that posts and it really touched me.

Jazhakhullah Khairan

@davidylan

Have you been banned again?

Alhaji, the purpose of Christ's death was not so that He could transform into the holy Ghost but that through His death AND resurrection we may have redemption from spiritual death/sin.
The Holy Spirit is simply there as a guide and is only available to those who have accepted the sacrifice of the cross.

Did Jesus really die on the cross?

@Mdsocks and Mukina


Salam, I am sorry for what happened based on our discussion. I didnt mean to but you witnessed what happened and I had to and I think I will continue to or what do you think?

Maa Sala,

@pilgrim.1

Where in the Bible did you find God saying that He substituted any verse for another? if you can find that verse with God using the word "substituted" in the Bible for one verse to another, then you have a discussion to tender - otherwise, your efforst to force the embarrassing fallacy of "substituting" Qur'anic verses in Islam is too weak to divert the topic of this thread.

I can now see that you are confused just because God did not say he abrogated some verses and if He did not say that, how come Jesus changed the law and sayings of Moses? I know that you will always cry of trying to divert the thread just because I gave you verses from your bible on the same issue. You may do justice to those biblical verses and tell me why did Jesus change what Moses told them

Pull yourself from under the finger you're hiding! Where did Jesus claim to gave ABROGATED or SUBSTITUTED any verse for another? Trying to force that idea into the Bible because your Qur'an has been abrogated is not going to help you better your Islam, you hear?

If Jesus did not claim that, why did he change what Moses taught and please what do you call that despite the fact that he said that he didnt came to annul/abrogate any law but he did changed that of Moses!!!

It does not mean that He "changed" the Law of Moses, nor does it mean that He abrogated any verse in the Mosaic Law. If you can find me where He used the word "substitute" or "abrogate", then I will help you see what you have been deliberately twisting. Until then, please save your headaches and focus on the ABROGATED Qur'an which you have difined as a SUBSTITUTED book!

Now, what do you understand by these verses?


It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)

Come to think of it - you Muslims accuse the Bible of having been tampered with by Christians and Jews. No wahala - your attacks have not relieved you of your embarrassment.

Nothing of such sister. You are just confusing yourself and try to smuggle in what it is not. Have you been able to defend those biblical verses I served you?

But just what amazes me is this - even as 'Allah' was sending Gabriel (Jibril) to recite the Qur'an to Muhammad, the same 'Allah' was already busy ABROGATING and SUBSTITUTING his own Qur'an!! So, the Qur'an was already being ABROGATING from whereever Jibril was bringing the remaining!! Haba! Right from 'Allah', the Qur'an was being tampered with by 'Allah' himself - and the remaining was being sent down - diluted from Jannah!! I shudder O! Welldone!

Abeg school up and talk better - all these sweating acrobatics with a professional pretence about not understanding the meaning of the word "TRANSLATION" is not going to change the "colour, dye and batism" of 'Allah' into any system or religion (according to the various translations of the Qur'an).

Now is abrogation the same thing as omission?


Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

Shed the "light" and let's see the remaining darkness of the cancelled verses. What was Muhammad doing when they cancelled those verses after he cursed and swore for the several days after the incident?

Try to understand everything about fasting in Islam, who to fast, fasting of old people, one who is etc and when you do that, I will explain what you dont know

You defined "abrogation" earlier - and I used that same definition you gave to demonstrate that God nowhere abrogated any verse in the Bible. If you think you're smart enough to demonstrate a scholarship you don't possess, please find me where in the Bible where God said that He has abrogated any verse from the entire Bible - just one verse, please.

If God did not abrogate any verse, can you please explain the biblical verses I gave you where Jesus cancelled what Moses taught, despite the fact that he said that he didnt come to ABOLISH any law.

Afterall, 'Allah' clearly used the word 'abrogate' in your Qur'an - and you have quoted it several times. In the same way, please I humbly request you to find me just one verse of the Bible where God used the same word ("abrogate" in the Bible as 'Allah' used in his Qur'an.

Good, Allah used the word and He also gave reason for that but Jesus said that he didnt come to ABROGATE but did many cancelations which can be found in the verses I served you.

This is not a long story - just respond by finding me that verse, then we can discuss. Any long story you post will simply be rubbished into the bin.

Thank you.

Are you running out of point. Bring your allegation and it will be given rebuttal.
Also try to be civil in your discussions. A word is enough for the wise who has ears

@pilgrim.1

Where in the Bible did you find God saying that He substituted any verse for another? if you can find that verse with God using the word "substituted" in the Bible for one verse to another, then you have a discussion to tender - otherwise, your efforst to force the embarrassing fallacy of "substituting" Qur'anic verses in Islam is too weak to divert the topic of this thread.

I can now see that you are confused just because God did not say he abrogated some verses and if He did not say that, how come Jesus changed the law and sayings of Moses? I know that you will always cry of trying to divert the thread just because I gave you verses from your bible on the same issue. You may do justice to those biblical verses and tell me why did Jesus change what Moses told them

Pull yourself from under the finger you're hiding!  Where did Jesus claim to gave ABROGATED or SUBSTITUTED any verse for another? Trying to force that idea into the Bible because your Qur'an has been abrogated is not going to help you better your Islam, you hear?

If Jesus did not claim that, why did he change what Moses taught and please what do you call that despite the fact that he said that he didnt came to annul/abrogate any law but he did changed that of Moses!!!

It does not mean that He "changed" the Law of Moses, nor does it mean that He abrogated any verse in the Mosaic Law. If you can find me where He used the word "substitute" or "abrogate", then I will help you see what you have been deliberately twisting. Until then, please save your headaches and focus on the ABROGATED Qur'an which you have difined as a SUBSTITUTED book!

Now, what do you understand by these verses?


It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)

Come to think of it - you Muslims accuse the Bible of having been tampered with by Christians and Jews. No wahala - your attacks have not relieved you of your embarrassment.

Nothing of such sister. You are just confusing yourself and try to smuggle in what it is not. Have you been able to defend those biblical verses I served you?

But just what amazes me is this - even as 'Allah' was sending Gabriel (Jibril) to recite the Qur'an to Muhammad, the same 'Allah' was already busy ABROGATING and SUBSTITUTING his own Qur'an!!   So, the Qur'an was already being ABROGATING from whereever Jibril was bringing the remaining!! Haba! Right from 'Allah', the Qur'an was being tampered with by 'Allah' himself - and the remaining was being sent down - diluted from Jannah!! I shudder O! Welldone!

Abeg school up and talk better - all these sweating acrobatics with a professional pretence about not understanding the meaning of the word "TRANSLATION" is not going to change the "colour, dye and batism" of 'Allah' into any system or religion (according to the various translations of the Qur'an).

Now is abrogation the same thing as omission?


Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

@focused

Muhammed was not a comforter and will NEVER be a comforter. The comforter that Jesus talked about is the holy ghost, which appeared to his disciples on the day of pentecost. Which was 600 years before Muhammed (The great terrorist) was born.

From the verses, we learnt that the holy spirit would come after Jesus. If holy spirit is being referred to as the comforter to come after Jesus,

has the holy spirit not been in existence and still in existence
How many spirits will we be having since it has been in existence before creation and another one is coming.

@pilgrim.1


I thought that this thread has been laid to rest but not knowing that you are still denying the non-existence of TRINITY in the bible and that the early prophets did not preach same.

In "The Dictionary of the Bible," John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899 bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read:


"THE TRINITY OF GOD IS DEFINED BY THE CHURCH AS THE BELIEF THAT IN GOD ARE THREE PERSONS WHO SUBSIST IN ONE NATURE. THAT BELIEF AS SO DEFINED WAS REACHED ONLY IN THE 4th AND 5th CENTURIES AD AND HENCE IS NOT EXPLICITLY AND FORMALLY A BIBLICAL BELIEF.


The concept of "Trinity" was in fact a very old worshipping practice; it started long time before the time of Jesus. It was in Babylon that the idea of "Trinity" first appeared. This Trinity consisted of Baal, the Sun-god as father, Semiramis, the Queen mother and Nimrod, the divine child. A day was set aside to rejoice over and to celebrate the re-birth of the young god. From Babylon this worship spread to other places, but the names varied in different countries.



Three centuries after Jesus, the corrupt emperor Constantine forced the minority opinion of the trinity upon the council of Nicea. The Christian church went downward from there; in fact some of the creeds and councils actually contradict each other. The council of Nicea 325 said that "Jesus Christ is God," the council of Constantinople 381 said that "the Holy Spirit is God," the council of Ephesus 431 said that "human beings are totally depraved," the council of Chalcedon 451 said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God."



The Jews also reject the trinity, in addition to the very first groups of Christianity such as the Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians never know about trinity doctrine at all. The Arians, Paulicians and Goths also accepted Jesus (peace be upon him) as a prophet of God and against the trinity.


Moreover, the 'Socinianism', the 17th-century Christian also rejects such traditional doctrines as the Trinity and original sin, the founder is Socinus, and his Latinized name of Lelio Francesco Maria Sozzini (1525-1562), the Italian Protestant theologian.

Now please with regards to Ist John 1 v 1:

Can you tell me the greek word for 'God' in the above verse?

@samsonola

thaks so much. i now know. ma salaam

Maa Salam

@Pilgrim.1

Neither ideas of abrogation is in the Bible - for God never caused any of His prophets to "FORGET" any verse; nor did He cause them to "SUBSTITUTE" one verse for another. Since this is what Muslims are claiming for the Qur'an, it is no wonder it is self-attested as a "forgery" - because you will not find your definition of "abrogation" in any verse of the Bible.

Your game will never work with. You are saying that God did not cause them to substitute a verse for another but let us read throug these verses to see how true your statement is:


If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, (Deutronomy 24:1-2)


Now without going into the minute of this particular law of divorce, one thing becomes immediately clear. Not only is divorce permitted by God, it is legal for her to remarry.


Now Jesus changed the rule thus maming us known that they have been told that any man who divorce his wife must give her a certificate but Jesus made us known that it would be a sin to do hence he changed the law:


"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)


Let us read further:

Well Jesus himself explains:

"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:7-9)


Now Pilgrim.1, what does the above mean to you? Did Jesus not change the law of Moses?



2.

In the book of Deteronomy:

Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deutronomy 19:21)

But Jesus had it changed thus:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)


Can you please explain the verses above and did Jesus  not change what Moses commanded them to do?

When you are through, compare your answer(s) with these Quranic verses:

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

As you try to sort out the dilemma of your "forgotten" and "substituted" verses in the Qur'an, could you be so kind as well to help clarify why this particular verse was cancelled from the Qur'an? Here - the references are referring to the same event:

This thread keeps getting interesting but let us read on

(1) FASTING

  Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 3, Book 31, Num. 170:
  Narrated Nafi: Ibn 'Umar recited the verse: "They had a choice
  either to fast or to feed a poor person for every day, and said
  that the order of this Verse was cancelled.

Do you have the missing verse in the Quran with you and please? Can you still tell us who the hadith above was referring to and I will shed more light on what seemed difficult for you?

(2) MARTYRS

  Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 52, Num. 57:
  Narrated Anas: The Prophet sent seventy men from the tribe of
  Bani Salim to the tribe of Bani Amir. When they reached there,
  my maternal uncle said to them, "I will go ahead of you, and if
  they allow me to convey the message of Allah's Apostle (it will be
  all right); otherwise you will remain close to me."

  So he went ahead of them and the pagans granted him security.
  But while he was reporting the message of the Prophet ,
  they beckoned to one of their men who stabbed him to death.
  My maternal uncle said, "Allah is Greater! By the Lord of the Kaba,
  I am successful." After that they attached the rest of the party
  and killed them all except a lame man who went up to the top of
  the mountain. (Hammam, a sub-narrator said, "I think another man
  was saved along with him)."

  Gabriel informed the Prophet that they (i.e the martyrs) met their Lord,
  and He was pleased with them and made them pleased. We used to recite,
  "Inform our people that we have met our Lord, He is pleased with us and
  He has made us pleased" Later on this Quranic Verse was cancelled.

  The Prophet invoked Allah for forty days to curse the murderers from
  the tribe of Ral, Dhakwan, Bani Lihyan and Bam Usaiya who disobeyed
  Allah and his Apostle.

Is 'abrogation' the same thing as 'omission'?

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

(3) MARTYRS

  Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 52, Num. 69:
  Narrated Anas bin Malik: For thirty days Allah's Apostle invoked Allah
  to curse those who had killed the companions of Bir-Mauna; he invoked
  evil upon the tribes of Ral, Dhakwan, and Usaiya who disobeyed Allah
  and His Apostle. There was revealled about those who were killed at
  Bir-Mauna a Quranic Verse we used to recite, but it was cancelled
  later on. The Verse was:

  "Inform our people that we have met our Lord. He is pleased with us
  and He has made us pleased"

Do you have in the Quran where this particular verse is present but missing in another just I have been giving you biblical verses that are missing but present in another? Is abrogation the same thing as omission?

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

(4)  MARTYRS

  Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 5, Book 59, Num. 421:
  Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet invoked evil upon those (people)
  who killed his companions at Bir Mauna for 30 days (in the morning prayer).
  He invoked evil upon (tribes of) Ril, Lihyan and Usaiya who disobeyed
  Allah and His Apostle.

  Allah revealed a Quranic Verse to His Prophet regarding those who had
  been killed, i.e. the Muslims killed at Bir Ma'una, and we recited the Verse
  till later it was cancelled. (The Verse was 'Inform our people that we
  have met our Lord, and He is pleased with us, and we are pleased with Him."

Do you have in the Quran where this particular verse is present but missing in another just I have been giving you biblical verses that are missing but present in another? Is abrogation the same thing as omission?

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.

Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

@pilgrim.1

And just here to help you see that we do not need to run to any tafsirs to demonstrate that "bastards" is simply the same as "illegitimate chidlren". You can find the synonyms as linked below:


One of the meanings of "bastard" -

The illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents
- by-blow, love child, illegitimate child, illegitimate


that already has the term "illegitimate child" as of the same meaning!

Oh I can see that it is only that of Hebrew you saw but do not forget that I posted others too and you can scroll up to read.

You have serious problems babs787.

You can say that to those older than me and those that we may be of the same age in your family. If you dont know or you parent did not teach how to talk or behave towards those older than you, then I think that they must have been biting their fingers going through nairaland and reading your posts full of disgrace and lack of home training.

I'm sorry for you! Since you could not find materials to plagiarize, you have now tried to perfect the art of RECYCLING old gist!

This issue about "Where was the denial made?" has been soundly laid to rest previously already - click here and see how bari_kade outlined it for you!

Good, I love you exposing your fraud. Here is the link for you and please try to bring out where it was explained.

Your friend Gbade.x tried muddling things up and I had to arrange and give him the differences for him to explain but till now he has not done that and you may bail him out if you can.

You may read and catch the gist here if you care

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-29381.224.html

@pilgrim.1

Excuse me, WHY have you been using the same dishonest arguement of translation to attack the Bible and now complaining about my referring to Khalifa? Have Muslims not hypocritically been quoting Dr. Rashad Khalifa on the "miracle of 19 in the Qur'an" to prove their hypocristic apologetics?

Your claim has no basis here and not even worth responding. I have been using the versions you are using today to nail and you should try giving verses from the translations like Hilal, Picktall etc and not trying to smuggle in that of Khalifa.

If you are seeking a geuine discussion, my premise was simple: apply the same rule to your own Qur'an and drop your callous trade.

What is the rule if I may ask you?

Sura 2 v 138 ~ Which is it:

~ a "religion"
~ a "system"
~ a "baptism"
~ a "dye", or:
~ a "colour"?


Pickthall
(We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah
at colouring. We are His worshippers.

Yusuf Ali
(Our religion is) the Baptism of God: And who can baptize better
than God? And it is He Whom we worship.

Hilali-Khan
[Our Sibghah (religion) is] the Sibghah (Religion) of Allah (Islam)
and which Sibghah (religion) can be better than Allah's? And we
are His worshippers. [Tafsir Ibn Kathir.]

Shakir
(Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising?
and Him do we serve.

Sher Ali
Say, `We have adopted the religion of ALLAH; and who is better than ALLAH
in teaching religion, and him alone do we worship.'

Rashad Khalifa
Such is GOD's system, and whose system is better than GOD's?
"Him alone we worship."

Arberry
the baptism of God; and who is there that baptizes fairer than God?
Him we are serving.

Palmer
The dye of God! and who is better than God at dyeing? and we are
worshippers of Him.

Rodwell
Islam is the Baptism of God, and who is better to baptise than God?
And Him do we serve.

Sale
The baptism of God [have we received], and who it better than God to
baptize? Him do we worship.

Since you are confused as a result of different word used therein, can you please read the tafsir on that verse and get in touch? When you are through with that, can you also tell if these verses too used same word and meant same thing?

1.
1 John 5 v 7

RSV : For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father and the word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
RSV: Omitted

N.I.V: For there are three that testifies: the spirit, the water and the blood and these three are in agreement.

G.N.B; There are three witnesses: The spirit the water and the blood and all three give the same testimony.


L.B.V: The verses 6, 7 8 are totally omitted.


2.
Luke 22 v 70


KJV; Then they said,'are you the son of God? He said unto them, 'you say that I am.

N.I. V: They all asked, 'are you the son of God, he said, 'you are right in saying I am.

L.B.V: They all shouted, 'then you claim you are the son of God? And he replied, 'yes I am.



3.
Hebrew 12 v 8:

KJV: then you are bastards, and not sons
RSV: then you are illigimate children and not sons
GNB; it means you are not real sons, but bastards
LBV: it means that you are not God's son at all



4.
Job 13 v 15;


KJV; though he slay me, yet I trust him
RSV; he will slay me, I have no hope
GNB; I have lost all hope so what if God kills me?
LBV; God may kill me for saying this in fact, I expect him to.


5.
Ezekiel 16 v 25:


KJV: and had opened your feet to every one that passed by.
RSV; offering yourself to any passer-by
NIV; offering your body with increasing promiscuity to one who passed by.
LBV: you offered your beauty to every man who came by.


6.
Where was the denial made?

K JV:Mathew 26v71: …and he was gone into the Porch
RSV:Mathew 26v71:and when he went out to the Porch
Good news bible:Mathew 26v71: went out to the entrance of the Courtyard
New Living Translation:Mathew 26v71: , out by the GATE
The Gideon Bible: Mathew 26v71: …gone out to the GATEWAY




KJV:Mark 14v68-69: and he went out into the Porch
RSV:Mark 14v68: …and he went out into the Gateway
GNB:Mark 14v68: went out into the Passage
New Living Translation:Mark 14v68: …went out into the ENTRY WAY
The Gideon Bible: Mark 14v68: ….he went out on the PORCH



KJV:Luke 22v55-58: …in the midst of the hall.
RSV:Luke 22v55: …in the middle of the Courtyard
GNB:Luke 22v55: …center of the Courtyard
New Living Translation:Luke 22v55: the guards lit a fire in the COURTYARD…Peter joined them.
The Gideon Bible:Luke 22v55: Peter sat among them in the COURTYARD


Another post coming shortly.

@pilgrim.1

Excuse me, WHY have you been using the same dishonest arguement of translation to attack the Bible and now complaining about my referring to Khalifa? Have Muslims not hypocritically been quoting Dr. Rashad Khalifa on the "miracle of 19 in the Qur'an" to prove their hypocristic apologetics?

Your claim has no basis here and not even worth responding. I have been using the versions you are using today to nail and you should try giving verses from the translations like Hilal, Picktall etc and not trying to smuggle in that of Khalifa.


If you are seeking a geuine discussion, my premise was simple: apply the same rule to your own Qur'an and drop your callous trade.


What is the rule if i

@pilgrim.1

In the same way, it would be helpful to first understand what Biblical Christianity connotes before assuming to adjudge it from the things you see around you.

Can you shed more light on what biblical christianity connotes?

@samsonola

Peace everyone. Please if i miss like 3 salat sy zuri, asri and magrib is it compulsory for me to say the call to prayer for each prayer if i am praying alone.Thanks

Salam brother. I told you that I would respond giving you explanation and it goes:

The call to prayer and call for prayer for those who missed the proper prayer time. (The Adhan and Iqamah for those who missed the proper time of prayer

One who sleeps through the time of a prayer or who forgets a prayer may make adhan and Iqamah when he desires to pray. In a story recorded by Abu Dawud, when the Prophet upn whom be peace, and his companions slept through the time of the morning prayer, he ordered Bilal to make the adhan and Iqamah for the prayer. If one has missed many prayers, it is preferred to make one adhan at the beginning followed by an Iqamah for each prayer.

Sys al-Athrami, 'I heard Abu 'Abdullah (Ahmed) being asked what a man who had missed a prayer should do about the adhan. He mentioned the hadith of Hushaim fro Abu-az-Zubair that the idol-worshippers kept the Prophet busy observing four of his prayers during the battle of clans. When part of the night had passed, he ordered Bilal to make the adhan and the Iqamah and they prayed the afternoon, sunset and night prayers in succession, each time followed by the iqamah.

Hope it is understood brother that you have to make the Iqamah for each prayer.



The adhan and iqamah for women

Said Ibn 'Umar,'there is no adhan and iqamah for women, (related by al-Baihaqi with a shahih chain). This was the opinion of Anas al-Hassan, Ibn Sireen, an-Makahi, al-Thauri, Malik, Abu Thaur and the people of 'juristic reasoning'. Ash-Shafi, Ishaq and Ahmad said if they make the iqamah and adhan there is no problem. It is rrelated from Aishat that she made the adhan and iqamah and led women in prayer standing in the middle of the row (related by al-Baihaqi)

Maa Salam

@samsonola

Peace everyone. Please if i miss like 3 salat sy zuri, asri and magrib is it compulsory for me to say the call to prayer for each prayer if i am praying alone.Thanks

Salam brother. I told you that I would respond giving you explanation and it goes:

The call to prayer and call for prayer for those who missed the proper prayer time. (The Adhan and Iqamah for those who missed the proper time of prayer

One who sleeps through the time of a prayer or who forgets a prayer may make adhan and Iqamah when he desires to pray. In a story recorded by Abu Dawud, when the Prophet upn whom be peace, and his companions slept through the time of the morning prayer, he ordered Bilal to make the adhan and Iqamah for the prayer. If one has missed many prayers, it is preferred to make one adhan at the beginning followed by an Iqamah for each prayer.

Sys al-Athrami, 'I heard Abu 'Abdullah (Ahmed) being asked what a man who had missed a prayer should do about the adhan. He mentioned the hadith of Hushaim fro Abu-az-Zubair that the idol-worshippers kept the Prophet busy observing four of his prayers during the battle of clans. When part of the night had passed, he ordered Bilal to make the adhan and the Iqamah and they prayed the afternoon, sunset and night prayers in succession, each time followed by the iqamah.

Hope it is understood brother that you have to make the Iqamah for each prayer.



The adhan and iqamah for women

Said Ibn 'Umar,'there is no adhan and iqamah for women, (related by al-Baihaqi with a shahih chain). This was the opinion of Anas al-Hassan, Ibn Sireen, an-Makahi, al-Thauri, Malik, Abu Thaur and the people of 'juristic reasoning'. Ash-Shafi, Ishaq and Ahmad said if they make the iqamah and adhan there is no problem. It is rrelated from Aishat that she made the adhan and iqamah and led women in prayer standing in the middle of the row (related by al-Baihaqi)

Maa Salam

@pilgrim

In Deuteronomy 32:6, this is what Moses said about God:

Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise?
is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? hath he not made
thee, and established thee?

Another prophet (Isaiah) was even more bold when he declared:

'Doubtless thou art our Father, though Abraham be ignorant of us,
and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our Father,
our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.' (Isa. 63:16)

Please, only one thing I request of you: before you marry Muhammad to the ranks of the Biblical prophets, can you show me anywhere in the entire tenet of Islam where Muhammad ever knew God as FATHER?

I simply want to learn that from you, thank you.

Since you are claiming that Muhammad is not a prophet just because he never referred to His creator as Father, can you show me biblical verses where all the prophets mentioned therein referred to God as 'father'

Thanks

@samsonola

Insert Quote
Peace everyone. Please if i miss like 3 salat sy zuri, asri and magrib is it compulsory for me to say the call to prayer for each prayer if i am praying alone.Thanks

Salam 2 you too. . You have to say it but time does nt permit me to state in details why you need to but INsha Allah will do that later when I am less busy.

Maa Salam

@luvus

Insert Quote
hi this is what i learnt check this thread interesting https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-107465.0.html

You may go there to see how falsehood has been exposed.

@babyosis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: babs787 on Today at 08:12:53 PM
@babyosis
A question for you please:

You know that there is Shariah in Islam and there is also punishment for boh adulterers and fornicators. So how come the important verse was left out and please before you can say a verse has been left out, can you present the same verse present in at least one of the Quranic Translators but missing in others just as I have been serving you verses present in some versions but missing in some?

Thank you



babs remember you asked the above question from my claim after quoting the hadith below

Quote
Bukhari: vol. 8, hadith 817, p. 539-540; book 82

Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male and female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse), and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, `By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed.

It is obvious that `Umar was convinced that stoning an adulterer was part of the Qur'an and should not be removed. The modern Qur'an however does not contain these verses. So where have they gone? These verses must have been removed by those who were in charge of the text of the Qur'an. What is clear is that `Umar remembered these verses and did not think that they should be edited out while others obviously did, and so today they are not in the modern Qur'an.

Now Mr babs,I don't doubt that stoning is part of your sharia
The question is whether the above hadith is authentic or not
and by so,we'll prove if the commentary highlighted is correct.
Now an exercise for you,the commentator claims the Koranic verse about stoning was deliberatively removed in modern Korans.
Now I dare you to show me a verse of the Koran that unequivocally says adulterers and adulteresses should be stoned.

I am asking you again, if the punishment is still being carried out, on what basis would it have been removed?

Insert Quote
babs for the last time,please don't change the subject.
The authentic hadith I quoted said stoning was revealed,allah's prophet practiced it and his followers after him did.
My question
Kindly show us that revelation in todays Koran about stoning adultresses.

Read below for clarification:

It is also very strange that ‘Umar remains the only Companion to talk about the stoning verse in a vast majority of books. This fact strongly suggests that for quite sometime the stoning verse and ‘Umar were uniquely tied to each other. Indeed, in one of the traditions it is assumed that ‘Umar was the only one who knew about the stoning verse:


[It is reported by] Ibn Abi Shaybah, concerning al-masahif, from al-Layth bin Sa‘d who said: The first to collect the Qur`an was Abu Bakr and Zayd bin Thabit wrote it. And people came to Zayd bin Thabit (with the portions of the Qur`an) but Zayd did not write anything (in the Qur`an) except with the testimony of two reliable witnesses. The last part of Surah Bara`ah was not found except with Khuzaymah bin Thabit. He said, “Write it, for the Messenger of God had declared the testimony of Khuzaymah equivalent to that of two men.” So he wrote it. And ‘Umar came with the verse of stoning but Zayd would not write it because ‘Umar was alone (in his testimony) (Al-Suyuti as quoted in ‘Awn al-Ma‘bud 3130)


According to this story, in the time of Abu Bakr when the Qur`an was reportedly collected no one knew about the stoning verse or no one remembered it except ‘Umar. This story is absent from all of the nine collections of Hadith covered in the Hadith Encyclopedia and does not even have complete isnad.


Examination of the asanid of ‘Umar’s hadith suggests the approximate time when the hadith was fabricated: As noted above the asanid show that the hadith can be take back with some probability only to the time of ‘Ubayd Allah and Ibn al-Musayyab. Now both of these Successors died in or after 93 and those who transmitted from them -- al-Zuhri, Yahya bin Sa‘id etc -- died in or after 124. ‘Ubayd Allah and Ibn al-Musayyab therefore could not have transmitted the hadith to the third-generation narrators too much earlier than 75. If we allow a couple of decades for the hadith to gain wide enough circulation for ‘Ubayd Allah and Ibn al-Musayyab to start quoting it, then we can date it somewhere between 50-80.


Examination of the contents of the narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith leads to a very significant result which may be stated at that outset: not all narrations of ‘Umar’s hadith talk about a missing Qur`anic verse about stoning. In fact, narrations that do not refer to such a verse have much more varied asanid than those that refer to it. This result is significant because it strongly suggests that ‘Umar’s hadith originally did not talk about the stoning verse.

Are you okay now?

Thanks

@luvus

Insert Quote
hi check this thread interesting https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-107465.0.html

Why wasting your time over what has been exposed?

@luvus

hi check this thread interesting https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-107465.0.html

You may go there now and have a look.

@luvus

Insert Quote
hi check this thread interesting https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-107465.0.html

Why not sit for a debate rather than jumping from thread to thread. You can go there and have a look please

@luvus

@pilgrim
i hope they do ,

hi all muslim r u sure that bounties exist in the first place?
don't u think koran is deceiving u?

hi check this thread interesting https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-107465.0.html

and see what i mean,

You may go there to read the unexpected.

@pilgrim.1

Even your signature said "Die EXCEPT As A Muslim" - so what is anyone missing when you so advise them? Finally, you had to lose face and change it now to: "To ignore the facts does not change the facts"! Well done - to ignore the facts we have been sharing all along actually does not change them.

I did not lose any face and if you care to know I change my signature as often as I like but try to show that you were trained.

At least, I know the many things I'm glad to leave behind in Islam when the love of Christ touched me - and I'm eternally grateful

Unfortunately, you will be ignored by tht same Jesus because he was not sent to you.

How many questions have you been able to answer on christianity?

@pilgrim.1

Dont try to be evasive, you saw my question quite right and here it goes:


The above really caught my attebntio hence my quoting it. Please in all honesty, can you give me the verses in full from the translators going against each and some missing verses just like I have doing with your bible?

@Pilgrim.1


I  taught you would talk on the abrogation from the bible but it seemed you lost there.

Now I read your hypocrisy here. I opened a threrad sometime and asked you qiestions but you ran claiming that it was ferreted from website and I even gave you biblical verses to start but you still avoided my questions but you are jubilating over what you ran away from in another thread.

Lest I forget, you posted some missing verses from Khalifa's Quran, please why have you not been quoting from the same book all these while and it is very glaring that it was a deliberate omission and can you please serve me other translators having the verses missing but  present in others?

You guys sicken common sense. Nobody has ever denied that there are various versions and translations of the Bible. Muslims have tried to give the idea that the Bible cannot be trusted because it has many versions, editions, translations, etc.

Calm down se o ti gbo. You aint see nothing yet and don't run when I give you questions under the pretext of being lifted from website?

Kindly supply me verses missing in some translations but present in others and verses going against each other in the translations

What have your folks been arguing all this while but the same thing you complain about? Here:


Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 08:28:48 PM
Lastly, are you ready for a brief journey into the origin of the bible, the different versions we had and we are having now, the ommission of some verses and later insertions, difference in some verses of early publication etc?

Dear mdsocks, if you care to drop your Muslim hypocrisy, you would see the empty apologetics that you are here whining about. When people try to apply the same versions and translations of the Qur'an, you hyperventilate and summersault, claiming that the people that point out the same thing about the false claims of Muslims on this same issue are "deluded". Are there no VERSIONS, EDITIONS and TRANSLATIONS of the Qur'an - or are you truly having such a difficulty with plain English? Just what is wrong with your thinking that you guys have no conscience any more for simple truth?

Can you still supply me verses going against each other in the Quran and some missing in some, present in others just I like I did with your bible?


Do you care for a thread on this:

Lastly, are you ready for a brief journey into the origin of the bible, the different versions we had and we are having now, the ommission of some verses and later insertions, difference in some verses of early publication etc?

He made it clear that His ministry of salvation was to the entire world - both Jews and Gentiles:

  Matthew 24:14
  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world
  for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Now why was his ministry limited to Jew during his time, telling his disciples not to go to the land of the gentiles and had to tell them later to go to all nations.

Please what do you understand by 'all nations' and note that we have 'all the nations' in some versions. So what do you understand by that phrase?

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 08:12:53 PM
Later on this was abrogated and Jesus commanded his disciples to reach out to all peoples.

Lol. . . there are no "abrogated verses" in the Bible as 'Allah' has abrogated so many verses in his Qur'an to such an extent that Muslims are not sure among themselves which are still standing.

For a start, could you enuciate for us ALL the abrogated verses of the Qur'an against all those that are not abrogated?

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.


Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

Now what do you understand by 'abrogation' with regards to the biblical verses presentd?

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 08:12:53 PM
It is clear that the concept of abrogation: the nullifying of an older commandment or practice in favour of a newer law, is nothing new and it has been practiced by God for reasons known to him.

Again here: Jesus never claimed to come and "nullify" any verse of the Bible. His word was not about "nullifying" anything, but about FULFILLING them. This is why I asked olabowale to go and find out what the term means.

Very good, now let us read the bible for clarification:


Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)


The above meant that he didnt come to cancel any law but to fulfil it.

Lets see if really the above statement is true



1.
Abrogation Of Divorce

In the Old Testament we find the following law concerning divorce:

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, (Deutronomy 24:1-2)

Now without going into the minute of this particular law of divorce, one thing becomes immediately clear. Not only is divorce permitted by God, it is legal for her to remarry.


However in the time of Jesus, the rules of divorce seem to have taken a You-turn.

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)


Here Jesus abrogated the former permission to divorce according to the husband's displeasure and strictly allowed it under one condition - adultery. He even went so far as to legislate that divorcees were not permitted to remarry, clearly abrogating the former permission. But what is the reason given for this abrogation? Had God changed His mind? Is this evidence of God not being omniscient? Or more importantly, is this evidence that in fact God was never the author of these laws?

Let us read further:

Well Jesus himself explains:

"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:7-9)


2.
Law Of Absolute Justice

In the book of Deteronomy:

Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deutronomy 19:21)

Now God Jesus first commanded them to take life for life etd but had it changed/abrogated/canceled:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)


3.
Law Of Oaths

We read:

If you make a vow to the LORD your God, do not be slow to pay it, for the LORD your God will certainly demand it of you and you will be guilty of sin. But if you refrain from making a vow, you will not be guilty. Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth. (Deutronomy 23:21-23)


That is, it is permissible to make an oath for various reasons, however, the swearer must fulfil the oath he makes. In Jesus' time it became necessary for him to abrogate this permission so that the swearing of oaths became forbidden. In Matthew it is recorded:


"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your `Yes' be `Yes,' and your `No,' `No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:33-37)


Let me stop there in order to attend to your other write up.

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 08:12:53 PM
What we know is that the laws governing the mankind (i.e., Shariah) changes according to the needs of the society.

In order words, laws of 'Allah' are also changing - according to your inference here?

Read the biblical verses I served you up.

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.


Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

Be sure you don't bring up any illiterate post when trying to dscuss with me. You know how I rubbish the Muslim games you have been playing - I've done so in different threads - and this won't be any different. If you are seeking a genuine discussion, then drop your hypocrisy.

You should learn how to talk those old to be your father first and if you would be civil a little, babs will have a debate with you and not with your lack of moral that you have been displaying all these while.

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 08:20:05 PM
Do you and Pilgrim/1 have any Quranic translations having Bismillah in that same verse and please since you are that ignorant to quote without having a re-think of what you are posting, we have more than one verse not having Bismillah and Allah made provision for same in some verses.

With due respect, I have not regarded you with such uncouth language - and if you don't mind, drop your vexations and behave.

Sorry for that and please do you have any explanation to another chapter not having Bismillah in the beginning and some chapters having more than one Bismillah?

We know how the Bismillah verses did not survive those chapter headings - they were humanly deliberated and not as assumed by Muslims that they were so given by 'Allah'.

So do you have any proof for your above allegation and if they were deliberately removed, why are they in other chapters and what is the purpose of their omission?

Thanks

Quote from: babs787 on Today at 08:20:05 PM
Now Babyosis and Pilgrim.1, what happened to other verse that is not having Bismillah in the beginning as well?

Muslims should tell us - did they not claim that "everything" in the Qur'an came straight from 'Allah'? How come Muhammad was claiming the Qura'n as a "book" when there was no text and he was dictating to his companions? Do Muslims understand what a "book" is at all?

You saw my question and here it is again:

Now Babyosis and Pilgrim.1, what happened to other verse that is not having Bismillah in the beginning as well?

@babyosis


This is my last for your last post too and the next will be for Pilgrim.1

I promised 3 hadiths,now 3 times's the charm

Mishkat Al-Masabih: book 8, ch. 3, last hadith [4]

Ibn Abbas said he asked Uthman[1] what had induced them to deal with al-Anfal[2] which is one of the mathani[3] and with Bara`a[4] which is one with a hundred verses, joining them without writing the line containing "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,"[5] and putting it among the seven long ones. When he asked again what had induced them to do that, Uthman replied, "Over a period suras with numerous verses would come down to God's messenger, and when something came down to him he would call one of those who wrote and tell him to put these verses in the sura in which such and such is mentioned, and when a verse came down he would tell them to put it in the sura in which such and such is mentioned. Now al-Anfal was one of the first to come down in Medina and Bara`a was among the last of the Qur'an to come down, and the subject-matter of the one resembled that of the other, so because God's messenger was taken without having explained to us whether it belonged to it, for that reason I joined them without writing the line containing `In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,' and put it among the long suras."

Footnotes for the above hadith

Uthman, the third successor to Muhammad.
al-Anfal is Sura (chapter) 8 in the Qur'an.
mathani: suras with less than 100 verses.
Bara`a, also called Tawba, is Sura 9.
Every sura in the Qur'an is introduced by "In the name of God, " except Sura 9.

Here we see that Uthman was questioned by other Muslims as to why he did not include the phrase, "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful", at the beginning of sura 9. His answer was that Muhammad had died without explaining where sura 9 belonged and so he (Uthman) joined it to sura 8 because they "resembled" each other. What is obvious is that some Muslims felt the phrase should have been there while Uthman did not. Uthman's decision prevailed and so the phrase is not included in the modern Qur'an.

These three examples from the hadith clearly show that there was some editing involved by those who compiled the Qur'an. It is also clear that the editors' decision was not universally agreed upon; it did not have universal consensus.

Do you and Pilgrim/1 have any Quranic translations having Bismillah in that same verse and please since you are that ignorant to quote without having a re-think of what you are posting, we have more than one verse not having Bismillah and Allah made provision for same in some verses.

Now Babyosis and Pilgrim.1, what happened to other verse that is not having Bismillah in the beginning as well?

@babyosis

Oya first hadith


Bukhari: vol. 8, hadith 817, p. 539-540; book 82

Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male and female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse), and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, `By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed.

It is obvious that `Umar was convinced that stoning an adulterer was part of the Qur'an and should not be removed. The modern Qur'an however does not contain these verses. So where have they gone? These verses must have been removed by those who were in charge of the text of the Qur'an. What is clear is that `Umar remembered these verses and did not think that they should be edited out while others obviously did, and so today they are not in the modern Qur'an.

A question for you please:

You know that there is Shariah in Islam and there is also punishment for boh adulterers and fornicators. So how come the important verse was left out and please before you can say a verse has been left out, can you present the same verse present in at least one of the Quranic Translators but missing in others just as I have been serving you verses present in some versions but missing in some?

Thank you

2nd hadith

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 60, p. 46; book 60

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:

I said to `Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: `Those of you who die and leave wives behind,  without turning them out,' has been abrogated by an other Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" `Uthman said, "Leave it (where it is), O son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the Qur'an) from its original position."

Here we see that Ibn Az-Zubair and Uthman disagreed over whether or not a particular verse should be included in the Qur'an. Ibn Az-Zubair believed that the verse had been abrogated and therefore should be removed from the Qur'an, while Uthman was insistent that the verse should remain. Uthman had his way and so this verse is in the Qur'an today.

Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things.


Qur'an 16 vs 101
"When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.


What do you understand by abrogation? Please can you tell if there are no abrogation in the bible



Lets see there if there are no abrogated verses in the bible


We all understand that abrogation means to annul, to abolish etc

Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)


Meaning that he didnt come to make any abrogation abi.


Lets see if really the above statement is true


Abrogation Of Divorce

The best examples of Jesus abrogating parts of Old Testament law concern a number of statements recorded in the gospel according to Matthew. The most prominent of them would be the Law concerning Divorce.

In the Old Testament we find the following law concerning divorce:

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, (Deutronomy 24:1-2)

Now without going into the minute of this particular law of divorce, one thing becomes immediately clear. Not only is divorce permitted by God, it is legal for her to remarry.

However in the time of Jesus, the rules of divorce seem to have taken a You-turn.

"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)


Here Jesus abrogated the former permission to divorce according to the husband's displeasure and strictly allowed it under one condition - adultery. He even went so far as to legislate that divorcees were not permitted to remarry, clearly abrogating the former permission. But what is the reason given for this abrogation? Had God changed His mind? Is this evidence of God not being omniscient? Or more importantly, is this evidence that in fact God was never the author of these laws?


Well Jesus himself explains:

"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:7-9)

Jesus points to the fact that God designs laws that are suitable to the needs and exigencies of the time and audience.



Law Of Absolute Justice


In the book of Deteronomy:

Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deutronomy 19:21)

Quite a harsh law of absolute justice that was necessary due to the conditions of Moses' age. But Jesus was inspired by God to reveal a softer code for the believers to practice in individual relationships. By abrogating the harshness of absolute justice, Jesus was inspired to encourage the believers to employ forgiveness and mercy. It is recorded he said:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)

It is a different story that many Christians do not practice what Jesus has told them to do.


Law Of Oaths

We read:

If you make a vow to the LORD your God, do not be slow to pay it, for the LORD your God will certainly demand it of you and you will be guilty of sin. But if you refrain from making a vow, you will not be guilty. Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth. (Deutronomy 23:21-23)

That is, it is permissible to make an oath for various reasons, however, the swearer must fulfil the oath he makes. In Jesus' time it became necessary for him to abrogate this permission so that the swearing of oaths became forbidden. In Matthew it is recorded:

"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your `Yes' be `Yes,' and your `No,' `No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:33-37)


Jesus Abrogating His Own Commandments


Perhaps the clearest example of God inspiring Jesus to practice abrogation can be seen in the commissioning of his disciples. It is written in the New Testament that initially Jesus forbade his disciples from preaching to non-Jews. He restricted their activities and commanded them to avoid Gentiles. However, due to the change in circumstances and the completion of his earthly mission, Jesus abrogated this earlier law and made it not only permissible but obligatory for his disciples to reach out to a broader base.


A nice example of Jesus asking his disciples to preach the lost sheep of Israel is:

These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 10:5-6)

This prohibition is reinforced by Jesus' own practice:

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:22-24)

Even though because of his mercy Jesus healed the sick daughter, he made it clear that his mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. Later on this was abrogated and Jesus commanded his disciples to reach out to all peoples. It is recorded he said:

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20)

It is clear that the concept of abrogation: the nullifying of an older commandment or practice in favour of a newer law, is nothing new and it has been practiced by God for reasons known to him. What we know is that the laws governing the mankind (i.e., Shariah) changes according to the needs of the society. But the concept of monotheism (i.e., Tawheed) remains the same. The Creator knows very well that his creation, the humans, need time and discipline to grow and mature, He reveals commandments and practices that help them develop both as individuals and as members of society.

@babyosis

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 468, p. 441-442; book 60

Narrated Ibrahim:

The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abi Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them,: "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (The Night)?" Alqama recited:

'By the male and the female.' Abu Ad-Darda said,

"I testify that I heard me Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to recite it:--

'And by Him Who created male and female.' But by Allah, I will not follow them."

The above hadith shows that Muslims from different regions disagreed as to the way a particular verse should be read. Those who learnt the Qur'an from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said surah 92:1-3 as 'By the male and the female.' while other Muslims said, 'And by Him Who created male and female.' Thus the early Muslims had not all memorized the Qur'an the same way.

Your ignorance or should I say mischief is becoming something else that need attention. The above hadith in which you quoted showed the way Prophet Muhammad recited it and how the people wanted it to be recited and please can you present the particular Surah in question from different translators and we view the meaning together?