@barristers

Just remove "s" from the word 'translations'. I was just trying to tell you that i get several translations in one piece using bible.cc.

i can understand ur frustration seeing the fallacy u peddled for long being exposed in the light of the truth. It is a shame that anyone with different view from ur falsehood u lump same together with catholics. I got tired reading the nonsense u spewed above. Do u think lengthy and incoherent falsehood wins a case?
Quoting scriptures for u is a waste of time seeing that u have swallowed every bit of rubbish from watchtower and that will not allow u to see that Jesus Christ is not angel Michael even from d falsehood u peddle.
Last question for falsehood peddlers - where in ur own version of the bible is Jesus Christ called Archangel Michael?

BARRISTERS: @Boomark, you do have a good point in hebrew 1;5, however we still need to debate that and reconcile with other stronger proofs

Boomark;..If you Google Da 10:13, you will see various translations from 'bible.cc.' I use NWT and NKJV, both gave me one of the 'foremost princes and chief princes.' I also saw 'archangels' in some other translations..

free123: doctrine is one tough thing to deal with. Being known to always change ones belief is one reason i cant join issues with JW. What exactly will become of these fellas when some kind of light gets brighter and the whole belief system is changed?

The lenghth some JW can go to defend manmade doctrine is quite amazing forgeting that their light may get brighter tomorrow and their belief today becomes a sin. What kind of light is this that can never be brightest? Certainly not the light from God.

The lenghth some JW can go to defend manmade doctrine is quite amazing

Jesus is neither GOD nor an angel.

He is quite simply the SON of GOD , the Messiah and the Christ.


I will not allow you spread error.

Daniel 10:13 NLT (2007)

13 But for twenty-one days the spirit prince* of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael,

one of the archangels

came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.*

Don't say am confused when you don't know what it means to be similar to the sons of men.

Michael is the commander of God's army and atimes also [b]appear as a man.

Michael is the commander of God's army and a times also appear as a man

He does not only commands God's army but we all also. He is our commander.

So tell me who is it that the commander is helping?

These are the things He will come with but Let me start with this "...with the trumpet of God"

Michael came to Daniels aid. And the Son of man also came as you can see from the bolded.

Barristers where did you get "a leading angel"? I can't see it where you quoted.

Jesus is the Son of the living GOD.

Michael is the chief of God's angels,

to suggest that Jesus is angel Micheal is pure speculation and wrongly so.

No angel would have EVER qualified to die for the sins of Mankind,

only a man will suffice and that MAN is Jesus the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

that MAN is Jesus the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

In summary :

1) JESUS came as a MAN

2) He was not yet born at the time of the OT

FROSBEL;...Sorry , but this does not prove anything.

"And I saw [size=16pt]an angel[/size] standing in the sun...........................And he

hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Revelation 19:14-16).


and [size=14pt]his name is called "The Word of God." [/size](Revelation 19:11-13).

@BArrister.......you don't have to do this.......
Leave these issues alone.....

We should be here to tackle doctrinal issues not scandals.........

Just don't let chukwudi get to you.....

@Ubenidictus....how far??......we never finish our image debate o......

The Alameda County Superior Court awarded Conti a total of $28 million in damages. The Watchtower’s press release about the Candace Conti case states that the organization will try to appeal the court’s decision [/b]on grounds that a sentence made against a corporation because of the [b]actions of a member of the organization is unprecedented.

At least when God reoented he informed him before the day of the prophecy.

.Why did the Jw wait for theb prophecies to fail b4 recanting

Jonah's prophecy was conditional "if they don't repent" besides when God recants he will inform his prophets before the appointed date about his decision.

The fact remains anyone who claims to prophesy in the name of the Lord and it does not come to pass is a failed prophet.

BARRISTERS: @t-med



do you read those claims that was brought? they are lifted sentences from a paragraphs, but unfortunately they could not lift the particular 'day' together, so i demand for a scanned copy so as to confirm,and also see wheather there is a fix date of a day in a month in particular year that jws actually says that the world would end.

speculate? is not the issue here? read the main topic here;
''FAILED PROPHECIES OF THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY WITH REFERENCES''

lets see what a calamity 'prophecy' in the bible looks like, there are three ingredients it must contain;
1, The prophecy must be relayed through vision, or revelation to a person who convey the message to the one concerned. watchtower never claim to receive any vision whatsoever concerning the endtime,but it was jesus who declare an end to come, but the 'day and hour' nobody knows, so jesus carries the burden of the claim of 'who prophecied endtime' in the first place.
2,A prophecy (of a calamity) must be specific to a day or count to a particular day of a month of a particular year. no evidence has been brought forward that indicate a particular date that jws 'fix' like 29/8/2012......

see an example of a ''prophecy of destruction'' here again, i have cited it before,
jonah 3:1-3,
1 Then the Lord spoke to Jonah [/b]a second time: 2 [b]“Get up and go to the great city of Nineveh, and deliver the message I have given you.”

NOTE ABOVE THAT JONAH HAS RECEIVE A 'REVELATION' AND WAS TO GO AND DELIVER IT JUST THE WAY IT WAS REVEALED TO HIM;

3 This time Jonah obeyed the Lord’s command and went to Nineveh, a city so large that it took three days to see it all.[a] 4 On the day Jonah entered the city, he shouted to the crowds: [size=14pt]“Forty days from now Nineveh will be destroyed!”[/size]

FOURTY DAYS WILL BE A MONTH AND FEW DAYS IN NISSAN CALLENDAR! THE PEOPLE CAN COUNT FROM THE 'HOUR' OF THE 'DAY' THEY HEARD THE MESSAGE WHICH WILL BE A PARTICULAR HOUR OF THE 41ST DAY, HAD IT BEEN WE KNEW THE DATE JONAH WAS SAYING THIS OF WHICH THE PEOPLE OF NINEVEH CAN SPECIFY THAN US NOW.

SO, THE ENTIRE NOTION THAT WATCHTOWER PROPHECIED IS COMPLETELY UNFOUNDED. THERE WAS NO INGREDIENTS LIKE WHAT A PROPHECY SHOULD LOOK LIKE, THE INGREDIENTS THAT ARE TO BE SATISFIED IS THE 'DAY' AND 'HOUR', ACCUSERS MUST COMMIT JWS TO DAY AND HOUR AGAINST JESUS CLAIM THAT ''NOBODY KNOWS THE DAY AND HOUR''

TO BE FAIR TO JWS, NOBODY HAS COME OUT WITH A 'FIX DAY OF 24HRS IN A MONTH OF 30DAYS' TO NAIL THEM EXCEPT WHAT CAN BE TERMED AS EMPTY INSULTS THAT DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING.

They had propesied they would would end in 1914.ijawkid,truthislight et al come and defend your faith.

Extracts from the link are given below

Changed Dates :: Failed Predictions

This section covers some of the lesser known failed predictions and changed date doctrine of the Watchtower Society. For the more important dates see the pages on 1914, 1925, 1975. Many of the following quotes are from the Watchtower Society's Studies in the Scriptures Series. Scanned copies of these books can be downloaded for free from jehovah.net.au/books.html.




"He said: "Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am he,' and, 'The due time has approached.' Do not go after them." Luke 21:8

At John 16:13 Jesus said he would provide his followers Holy Spirit to correctly understand what the future holds;

"However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming."

Moses warned against those that make predictions in the name of Jehovah that do not come true;

"And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak..." Deuteronomy 18:20-22

The Watchtower says that the standard by which to judge a false messenger is whether their messages "come true"?

"Jehovah is the Grand identifier of his true messengers. He identifies them by making the messages he delivers through them come true. Jehovah is also the Great Exposer of false messengers." Watchtower 1997 May 1 p.8

Ironic, considering the Watchtower specifically said the end would come in 1914 and then 1925. The following section contains over 20 other "messages" promoted by the Watchtower for decades that turned out not to be "true". What does this prove about them as messengers?

Whereas doctrine is subjective and un-provable, time prophecy leaves no room for error. On a number of occasions the Watchtower put a line in the sand when saying a specific event was going to happen on a specific date. When those dates passed without event those statements proved beyond argument to be false. When something predicted to happen does not occur there is irrefutable evidence that Jehovah did not direct the interpretation. In line with the Scriptures above, the following incorrect dates prove the Watchtower Society is not guided by Jehovah.

In 1876, Russell became interested in time prophecy, after reading a copy of Barbour's publication Herald of the Morning. The end had not come in 1874, as the Adventists had predicted. However, Barbour explained that Matthew 24:27 meant Jesus' invisible presence commenced in 1874, the rapture would be 1878, and the end of the world was to occur in 1914. (see Watch Tower, 1906 July 15 for a detailed account.)

In Russell's doctrinal chronology the most important dates were 1874 and 1914:

"The chapter in SCRIPTURE STUDIES, Vol. II, showing the parallels between the Jewish and Christian Dispensations, makes prominent four dates, viz., (1) October, 1874; (2) April, 1878; (3) October, 1881, and (4) October, 1914;" Watch Tower 1911 June 15 p.190

"The careful student will have observed that the period designated 'The Time of the End' is very appropriately named, since not only does the Gospel age close in it, but in it, also, all prophesies relating to the close of this age terminate, reaching their fulfillments. The same class of readers will have noticed, too, the special importance of the last 40 of these 115 years (1874-1914), called 'The End' or 'Harvest.'" Studies in the Scriptures Series III - Thy Kingdom Come p.121



The above timeline shows Russell's concept that the Second Coming of Jesus was 1874, and the start of the 1000 year earthly reign was 1914, as it was to end in 2914 A.D.



For Rutherford the important dates were:

"WE HAVE no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925." Watchtower 1922 May 15 p.147



Other significant dates the Watchtower no longer refer to are;

1799 A.D. - The beginning of the Last Days.

539 A.D. - Thought to be the start of Catholic Papal rule and the start point of many prophetic interpretations.

Of these above dates only 1914 is still considered significant, and even then, mostly for different reasons than originally prescribed. Though part of Watchtower lore for 60 years, most current Jehovah's Witnesses are unaware of their significance and that each one failed to eventuate as predicted.

Each time the Watchtower has predicted an occurrence, it has not eventuated as foretold, a 100% failure rate. Does this inspire confidence in Watchtower interpretation? Jehovah's Witnesses promoted these falsehoods in the past, and continue to zealously advocate current doctrine as unfailing truths.

It is claimed that Jesus found a cleansed Slave Class dispensing truthful food in 1919. However, Rutherford continued to promote Russell's interpretation of the dates for the 1700's, 1800's and 1914 until the 1930's. Many of the date prophecies were re-explained between 1930 and 1932; the remainder were adjusted in 1943. Rutherford even dismissed the majority of his own 1900's predictions.

Chapter 10 of Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom is devoted to the subject "Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth". This discusses that truth is progressive, yet makes little reference to the failed dates. Relegated to a footnote on page 133 is the statement that;

"A clearer understanding of Biblical chronology was published in 1943, in the book "The Truth Shall Make You Free" and it was then refined the following year in the book "The Kingdom Is at Hand," as well as in later publications.

Scant mention is made of the incredible list of dates that had been abandoned. Nor does it clarify that it was not until 1943 that the beginning of Christ's presence was specifically changed from the year 1874 to 1914. This change was in The Truth Shall Make You Free, released in the time of Knorr and the first book to be printed that did not list the author's name. This was after the death of Rutherford and well after 1919 when Jesus inspection supposedly found a spiritually cleansed Organization.

One can imagine that over time most of the current doctrine describing events of the 1900's will eventually be seen to be of little relevance and relegated to the forgotten annals of Watchtower history. It is yet to be seen what will become of 1914; being the most significant doctrine it will be the most difficult to eradicate without overwhelming consequences.

1780

May 19, 1780 was the date for the first sign of the last days, "The Dark Day." Certain Adventists still hold to this date. It was said by Ellen that "Since the time of Moses no period of darkness of equal density, extent, and duration, has ever been recorded." (Great Controversy, p. 308) This was touched on in Studies in the Scriptures Series 4 (1897) p.604;

"Reckoning a hundred years from 1780, the date of the first sign, the limit would reach to 1880; and, to our understanding, every item predicted had begun to be fulfilled at that date"

The time of darkness, the first sign of the end, was caused by fires in New England and was confined mostly to the North-Eastern part of the United States. Quite typically a new religion will think their country is predicted in prophecy. The Adventists, Mormons and Watchtower Society all began as US centric religions.

1798

"And, perhaps we can answer: the "time, times, and a-half," ended in 1798, at the taking away of the papal dominion, and is one of the great landmarks of prophecy." Three Worlds and The Harvest of This World (1877) p.158

The 1260 days in Revelation 12:7 were said to extend from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. and marked by the end of Papal rule. In 1889, Russell changed the last days from 1798 to 1799, based on a new understanding that papal rule started in 539 A.D.

1799

"THE "Time of the End," a period of one hundred and fifteen (115) years, from A.D. 1799 to A.D. 1914, is particularly marked in the Scriptures. "The Day of His Preparation" is another name given to the same period " Studies in the Scriptures Series 3 Thy Kingdom Come p.23

Few Witnesses today are aware of the relevance of the year 1799, that this year is pivotal to the very existence of Jehovah's Witnesses. 1799 was the beginning of 'the time of the end'. This concept started the era of enlightenment and Adventist movement of the 1800's, resulting in Russell's end time belief system.

In 1796, George Bell explained that the Pope was the Antichrist and would fall in 1797. The war that started shortly afterwards along with Napoleon debasing the Pope was seen as evidence of the fulfilment of this. So dramatic was the effect of the apparent fulfilment of this prophecy that it started a general belief that the last days had started and led to the Adventist movement as a whole. The reasoning was related to Daniel's prophecy of the King of the North and prophecies of the 1260 days in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:7 and 11:1-3.

Studies in the Scriptures Series II and Zion's Watch Tower 1889 discussed this as relating to the 1799 date.

Catholic Papal rule started in 539 A.D. and was said to have ended 1260 years later in 1799, thus starting the beginning of the time of the end. The prophecy of the 1355 days was similarly calculated to extend from 539 A.D. to 1874, another key date in Russell's understanding of the end times. Although Russell did not get involved in the Adventist movement until the 1870's, he accepted this date as truth and felt that God had chosen him as his mouthpiece to preach the urgency of the times.

This reasoning was still held well after the 1919.

"Napoleon began this Egyptian campaign in 1798, ... and being completed in 1799, marks, according to the Prophet's own words, the beginning of the "time of the end."... "The time of the end" embraces a period from 1799 A.D., as above indicated to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's empire and the establishment of the kingdom of the Messiah." The Harp ofGod (1921) pp.228,229,236

"The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the "time of the end" began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874." Watchtower 1922 Mar 1 p.73

"Napoleon began this Egyptian campaign in 1798, finished it, and then returned to France on October 1, 1799. The campaign is briefly, yet graphically described in the prophecy, verses 40-44; and its being completed in 1799 marks, according to the prophet's own words, the beginning of "the time of the end. Twelve hundred and sixty years from 539 A.D. brings us to 1799, which is another proof that 1799 definitely marks the beginning of "the time of the end." This also shows that it is from the date 539 A.D. that the other prophetic days of Daniel must be counted." Creation (1927) 2,175,000 ed. p.293

It is amusing to see the lengthy list of inventions The Harp of God used as proof that the 1800's was the time of the end; cream separators, fireless cookers, Darkest Africa, shoe-sewing machines, the telegraph, the telephone, the great increase in knowledge and vacuum cleaners. The locomotive, where people could travel at a rate of 100 miles an hour and the 'flying machine, which is a very modern invention' were considered fulfilment of the 'day of God's preparation' spoken of in Nahum 2:1-6.

"The running to and fro of people is without question a fulfilment of the prophecy testifying to the "time of the end". These physical facts can not be disputed and are sufficient to convince any reasonable mind that we have been in "the time of the end" since 1799."

Then as now, the Watchtower resorted to insult, with Rutherford indicating above that a person is not of "reasonable mind" if they do not believe the time of the end started in 1799. Today, a Witness that does not believe 1914 was the start of the end is labelled "the Antichrist" and disfellowshipped.