@Myjoe
Are olaadegbu? why are you his mouthpiece? or One Nimshi like that, i will still like to engage him, now i can see that you guys have really formed a network to trap some jws, no wonder you have no religion at all? i dont need to know ola's church from you, at least he is identified with a religion,while i have made up my mind in joining jws and can defend their religion, but you,maybe you are a gay or heterosexual nobody knows, im not saying you are,but why are you shy to own up?i dont need to know,keep the reason to yourself pls, na you you sabi!

you dont need glasses to read my assertions, i have already done it for you in my last post;

I have not read the posts above properly but I have skimmed portions of them. This is typical JW hypocrisy in full blast and it would have been better if Barristers had shut up than post this.

Facts: The RC and the JW churches have both had child abuse problems. It is clearly more serious in the Catholic Church - but there are over a billion Catholics as against 7million JW. Both churches have been accused of coverups and putting church's reputation above victims' interest. Both have made out of court settlements and court-ordered payouts. So where is the moral high ground? Is it the fact a Cardinal has admitted the problem as enlarged by Barristers somewhere above, something the JW leadership do not have the decency to do?


To be sure, I agree that the mistakes of an individual should not be blamed on his church wholesale and I am careful about apportioning blames in this matter, but the JW has no moral high ground here and Barristers should shut ug. Anybody who wants to understand the problem of child abuse in both churches should disregard the jaundice above and do their research with an open mind.

What constitutes 'decency' to your understanding look stinking Myjoe,

1, elder out of a whole 54 churches each are affected in the U.S, which means that 53 jws churches do not have a case and there was no case involving boys ,but how do will 1 to 1.5 out of every 3 priests are molesters,gay, multiple sexual involvement in catholic?.

you mean the cardinal have a decency to look on until 8 dioceses were totally runned into bankruptcy after series of case settlements had sweeped the whole monies of the church;

[size=14pt]"a flood of abuse claims" five dioceses (Tucson, Arizona; Spokane, Washington; Portland, Oregon.; Davenport, Iowa, and San Diego) got bankruptcy protection. Eight Catholic diocese have declared bankruptcy due to sex abuse cases from 2004-2011.[/size]

Myjoe, it seems there is more about you, your total thinking i mean.

@truthslight

let me handle this pls, there is a pattern to handle matters, thanks.

@truthslight

[quote]@myjoe

1. the fact is that JW dont take blood or it main components.

To me, this is the blood itself also.
They are the main parts that makes up the blood. Eg, red blood, white blood.

But the extractions from platelet are different extractions and are not the main blood component this i think are different issues from the main blood parts.

So, when you bunch every every as fractions, it is not as clear as you put it "blood fractions", there are differences and parts extractions.

So, making an absolute statement that the JW dont take blood fractions is not entirely correct.

It depends on the parts of the fractions.
So it is a yes and a no.

2. On the issue of organ tramsplant the JW dont have an order for that just as the bible does not.

IT IS A MATTER OF INDIVIDUAL CONSCIENCES.

I believe that will put this issues to rest.
I had to confirm those to clear this issues up.[quote]

let me handle this pls, there is a pattern to handle matters, thanks.

SEE THE REFFERENCES;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

@OLAADEGBU,

WHAT IS YOUR CHURCH DOING,THAT THEY HAVE TO SETTLE CASSES AMOUNTING TO 3BILLION POUNDS, ONLY ON SEX ABUSE ALONE, AND 5 PARISHES WERE GIVEN BANKRUPCY PROTECTION?

LETS SEE BELOW;


Roman Catholic sex abuse cases

Starting with the united states.

BishopAccountability.org,

an "online archive established by lay Catholics," [size14pt]reports that over 3,000 "civil lawsuits have been filed against the church" in the United States,[13] some of these cases have resulted in multi-million dollar settlements with many claimants.[/size] The Roman Catholic Diocese of Dallas paid [size=14pt]$30.9 million[/size] in 1998 to twelve victims of one priest [size=14pt]($44.1 million in present-day terms)[/size].[14][15] In July 2003 the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Louisville [size=14pt]paid $25.7 million [/size]to "settle child sexual-abuse allegations made in 240 lawsuits naming 34 priests and other church workers."[14] In 2003, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston settled a large case for $85 million with 552 alleged victims.[16] In 2004, the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange settled nearly [size=14pt]90 cases for $100 million.[/size][17] In April 2007 the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon agreed to a [size=14pt]$75 million settlement with 177 claimants and the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Seattle agreed to a $48 million settlement with more than 160 victims.[/size][18] In July 2007 the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles reached a[size=14pt] $660 million agreement with more than 500 alleged victims, in December 2006, the archdiocese had a settlement of 45 lawsuits for $60 million.[/size][19][20] In September 2007, the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Diego reached a [size=14pt]$198.1 million "agreement with 144 childhood sexual abuse victims[/size]."[21] In July 2008 the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Denver agreed "to pay [size=14pt]$5.5 million to settle 18 claims of childhood sexual abuse.[/size]"[22] The Associate Press estimated the total from settlements of sex abuse cases from 1950-2007 to be more than $2 billion.[20] [size=18pt]BishopAccountability reports that figure reached more than $3 billion in 2012.[/size][13][23] Addressing[b] "a flood of abuse claims" five dioceses (Tucson, Arizona; Spokane, Washington; Portland, Oregon.; Davenport, Iowa, and San Diego) got bankruptcy protection.[20] Eight Catholic diocese have declared bankruptcy due to sex abuse cases from 2004-2011.[/b][24]
As it became clear that there was truth to many of the allegations and that there was a pattern of cover-up in a number of large dioceses across the United States, the issue exploded into a nationwide scandal, creating a crisis for the Catholic Church in the United States. Allegations in the United States also encouraged victims in other nations to come forward, rapidly creating a global crisis for the Church. [/b]Over several decades in the 20th century, priests and lay members of religious orders in the Catholic Church had sexually abused minors on a scale such that the accusations reached into the thousands.[25] [b]A major aggravating factor was the actions of Catholic bishops to keep these crimes secret and to reassign the accused to other parishes in positions where they had continued unsupervised contact with youth.


[size=14pt]AND TO WORSEN THE CASE, THE CATHOLICS GIVE UP COMPLETELY IN CONTROLLING THE SCORGE,SEE BELOW;
[/size]
In response to criticism that the Catholic hierarchy should have acted more quickly and decisively to remove priests accused of sexual misconduct, contemporary bishops have responded that the hierarchy was unaware until recent years of the danger in shuffling priests from one parish to another and in concealing the priests' problems from those they served. [size=18pt]For example, Cardinal Roger Mahony of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, said: "We have said repeatedly that ... our understanding of this problem and the way it's dealt with today evolved, and that in those years ago, decades ago, people didn't realize how serious this was, and so, rather than pulling people out of ministry directly and fully, they were moved."[/size]
[edit]Diocesan response to allegations

Some bishops have been heavily criticized for moving offending priests from parish to parish, where they still had personal contact with children, rather than seeking to have them permanently removed from the priesthood. Instead of reporting the incidents to police, many dioceses directed the offending priests to seek psychological treatment and assessment. [size=14pt]According to the John Jay report, nearly 40% of priests alleged to have committed sexual abuse participated in treatment programs. The more allegations a priest had, the more likely he was to participate in treatment.
REMEMBER THAT THERE ARE OTHER NUMEROUS CLAIMS BELOW,IF YOU HAVE THE TIME JUST CLICK ON EACH COUNTRY BELOW ON WIKIPEDIA'S PAGE.
1 Austria
1.1 Archdiocese of Vienna
1.1.1 Diocese of Sankt Pölten
2 Belgium
2.1 Archdiocese of Mechlin-Brussels
2.1.1 Diocese of Antwerp
2.1.2 Diocese of Bruges
2.1.3 Diocese of Ghent
2.1.4 Diocese of Hasselt
2.1.5 Diocese of Liège
2.1.6 Diocese of Namur
2.1.7 Diocese of Tournai
2.2 Salesians
3 Croatia
3.1 Archdiocese of Zagreb
3.2 Archdiocese of Rijeka
4 Czech Republic
4.1 Archdiocese of Olomouc
5 Denmark
5.1 Diocese of Copenhagen
6 France
6.1 Archdiocese of Paris
6.1.1 Diocese of Meaux
6.2 Archdiocese of Rouen
6.2.1 Diocese of Evreux
6.3 Archdiocese of Besançon
7 Germany
7.1 Archdiocese of Munich and Freising
7.2 Diocese of Regensburg
7.3 Archdiocese of Berlin
7.3.1 Canisius-Kolleg Berlin
7.4 Archdiocese of Freiburg
7.4.1 Kolleg Sankt Blasien
8 Great Britain
8.1 Archdiocese of Southwark
8.1.1 Diocese of Arundel and Brighton
8.1.2 Diocese of Plymouth
8.2 Archdiocese of Cardiff
8.3 Benedictines
8.4 Kiltegan Fathers
8.5 Diocese of Middlesbrough
8.6 Archdiocese of Birmingham
9 Ireland
9.1 Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly
9.1.1 Diocese of Cloyne
9.1.2 Diocese of Limerick
9.2 Archdiocese of Dublin
9.2.1 Diocese of Ferns
9.3 Archdiocese of Tuam
9.4 Archdiocese of Armagh
9.4.1 Diocese of Raphoe
10 Italy
10.1 Archdiocese of Trento
10.1.1 Diocese of Bolzano-Brixen
10.2 Archdiocese of Venice
10.2.1 Diocese of Verona
11 Malta
11.1 Archdiocese of Malta
12 Netherlands
12.1 Archdiocese of Utrecht
12.1.1 Diocese of Den Bosch
12.1.2 Diocese of Roermond
12.1.3 Diocese of Rotterdam
12.2 Salesians
13 Norway
13.1 Territorial Prelature of Trondheim
14 Poland
14.1 Archdiocese of Poznan
14.2 Archdiocese of Warsaw
14.2.1 Diocese of Plock
15 Slovenia
15.1 Archdiocese of Ljubljana
16 Spain
16.1 Society of Jesus
17 Sweden
17.1 Diocese of Stockholm
17.2 Sweden generally
18 See also
19 References

IN CONCLUSION, ONLY IF ONLY IN AMERICA 80 PER-CENT OF ONLY THE PRIESTS ARE SEX ABUSERS WHAT DO YO SAY ABOUT THE CHURCH MEMBERS.
THEY HAD TO GIVE UP IN CONTROLLING IT! WHAT A SHAME!!! OLAADEGBU, SHIOOO, IN YORUBA!! SEE YOUR MESS UP HERE!!

@OLAADEGBU

Here i come again, i never saw this tread before,so when i knocked you off from the trinity forum,and your brother ihedinobi rubished your assertions declaring that ''trinity is undefended in the bible''you felt jittery, are you speaking with one voice? ok, you accused jws below,

i dont think there is something called shame, in your catholic church, then the quote below should not come from a catholic like you;

I pity the gullible folks under your care. Here are fresh evidence of your cover up and it shows that it is not a one off incidence it is ingrained in your Society and your organisation does its best to cover them up.

now let me give an independent analysis [/b]on child abuse cases so far,using the common wikipedia/free encyclopedia,

starting with jws;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses'_handling_of_child_sex_abuse

this is coming from me, a non jw;

The New York Times commented:[33]

The shape of the scandal [b][in Jehovah's Witnesses] is far different than in the Catholic church, where most of the people accused of abuse are priests and a vast majority of the victims were boys and young men. In the Jehovah's Witnesses, where congregations are often collections of extended families and church elders are chosen from among the laypeople, some of those accused are elders, but most are congregation members. The victims who have stepped forward are mostly girls and young women, and many accusations involve incest.
Congregation elders are required to first contact the organization's legal department in cases of alleged abuse to establish whether there is a legal duty to report the sex crime to the civil authorities or not.[34] In Canada, elders were advised:[35]
There is a duty to report when one has reasonable and probable grounds to believe that there is abuse or a substantial risk of abuse and parents have failed to protect the child. The report shall be made forthwith to the local child welfare authorities. […] Elders must be aware, however, that once they have knowledge, they have an obligation. They cannot just hope that someone else will report. They must follow through quickly, and be sure that it is done."

The BBC reported on the controversy around Jehovah's Witnesses child abuse in July 2002, in the Panorama program "Suffer the Little Children"[47] Jehovah's Witnesses headquarters published their response to many of the allegations made in the program, the substance of which is found in the article Jehovah's Witnesses and Child Protection on their official website.
According to Witness spokesman J. R. Brown, Jehovah's Witnesses are not required to report crimes to elders before calling civil authorities. Victims and their families are free to call police at will, he said, although some don't choose to.[48] A circular sent to elders in the USA stated: "In those states where such is required, oftentimes the parent, the guardian, or the accused person himself can do the reporting. In this way the confidentiality protected by ecclesiastical privilege is not violated."[49] The Watchtower Society maintains its existing policy, without an explicit requirement for elders to report all child abuse cases where such is not mandatorily required by law.[42][43] In at least one case, elders urged a perpetrator himself to go to police.[50]
Lawsuits

LETS SEE THE PERCETAGE OF ACCUSATION AGAINST THE ELDERS,
[size=14pt]In the United States, over 80,000 elders currently serve in over 12,300 congregations[/size] … During the last 100 years,[size=14pt] only eleven elders have been sued for child abuse in thirteen lawsuits filed in the United States; In seven of these lawsuits against the elders,.[/size] [size=18pt]accusations against the Watchtower Society itself were dismissed by the courts
[/size]
APPROX 80,000 ELDERS ONLY 11 SUED AND THATS MEANS THAT 1 OUT OF 7,272 ARE SUED, WHICH ALSO MEAN THAT AN AVERAGE OF 1 ELDER OUT OF 7,272 ELDERS, IN ONE OUT OF 54 CHURCHES OF JWS,HAVE BEEN ACCUSED. THATS MASSIVELY COMMENDABLE.
WE CAN CONCLUDE HERE THAT, JWS HAVE EFFECTIVELY PUT A MEASURE TO ERADICATE IT.


IT IS ALSO NOTEWORTHY THAT WATCHTOWER WERE AWARDED CAD$142,000 WRONGFULLY JOINED IN AN ABUSE CASE!
In 2004, a Canadian court awarded CAD$5000 to a plaintiff for the negligence of an elder who failed to follow the official policy of the church. [size=14pt]However, the court dismissed charges against the Watchtower Society, and directed the plaintiff to pay the Watchtower Society's legal fees amounting to CAD$142,000.[/size]

NOW LETS SEE OLAADEGU'S CATHOLIC CHURH FROM WIKIPEDIA'S PERSPECTIVE. TO FOLLOW NEXT;

@prothelly

@ Barrister
@ truthislight

When it comes to dealing with the Jw, I apply caution in order not to add or remove from God's word according to the last chapter of the book of Revelation.
I have studied more than five times wit jw at different times and location as life takes me to and fro. And I discover one attitude they possess; proof me wrong pls
1. They are arrogant
2. They are self righteous, claiming to be the only chosen ones of God.
3. Most of them are VERY poor.
4. They are ONLY concern about 'paradise' on earth.
5. They dnt want to reason with what you have to say, using 'what the Bible really teaches' to force you to believe their doctrines.
6. Each time I ask a question they will tell to come to the kingdom hall first or they will need to ask their elder.........why?
7. They look down on you and claiming not associate with anyone outside their and yet they attend public schools, go to public market, enter public vehicles. My question is: since the jw are not part of this world, then why are they here. They suppose to have their own planet so as not to associate with anyone in other not to poute them. Even when the Bible makes it clear as said by the Lord Jesus, 'I came for the lost not the saved, I came for the sinners not the righteous'. If the jw are these righteous then Christ won't have come to save that which was 'lost'.

I decide not to continue with the studies after their 'Jehovah at hand' convention in 2006. I observed that their baptism is only done at their convention and the teaching they gave to back up their claims was not founded on the Bible.
1. Jesus Christ whom is the ONLY way to God was not baptised a pool.
2. Jesus was baptised prior to HIS earthly ministry and received the HOLY SPIRIT instantly. The HOLY SPIRIT which they claim was only meant for the apostles of old and not for these day christian.

Spirituality which they dnt believe is the ONLY way to reach God. Yet they close their eyes and pray, they sleep and find themselves in strange places in their dreamlands. My question is, if Spirituality is not for today christian, in what medium do you pray and receive answers? Or is it that your prayer goes thru a post office to God. Secondly, how do you called the dream realm? Is it physical or spiritual? If there is no spiritual realm how will God raise up the dead 'good' christians on ressurrectio day, since God is a Spirit. And the Bible has said that God is a Spirit and those that worship HIM should worship HIM in 'Spirit' and in truth.

On the aspect of Tithe and offering my brothers, if it is not in the Bible, I would have stop giving my Tithe and offering in church. Mal 3:10 makes it clear. Why are jw concerntrating on MOG collecting tithe and offering, when they will come to my door and 'remind' me that their magazines are without charge but encourage donations. Why will you remind me of what already know if you are not asking for money? I understand that 'the book of Bible stories and Revelation climax (which I have) are hard to get cos there are no funds to print them, what a shame!
If you say you dnt collect offerings then why are their boxes asking for donations. Who are the ones responsible for the collected 'donations' ? Why does the jw make announcement on convention ground calling for donations? What will you call that? Why then don't I go around and say that jw are collecting donations and defrauding members?
In churches, you NEVER hear pastor telling tha you MUST drop tithe and offering before leaving. Everyone does that based on Mal 3:10, no one is being forced. If you say tithe giving is for ancient Christians then no one in this generation should be practising christianity. Shiken!

@ the two poster I quote, pls answers these questions

There is a rule guiding the forum, 'keeping to the topic' and the topic here is about prophecy which jesus pronounced long time ago,but some are having issues on why the jws have to re-echo it or point to a particular period.
And as you can see, there are numerous questions that you are asking, i dont answer question in group, but one after another,can you open another tread so that i join? this is to keep followers here on track, thank you my brother, and pls, no insults, when you say they dont have money to print book and what a shame,thats off the line! i dont know where you get that from, but all i know is that if you book an order, they will give you without charge. thanks

@true2God

Hi my broda, so when when are u planning to become a Jw? R u still thinkin about it or somehw confused?

Oh, you want to know, i have allowed my wife and children to join, but my job is the issue here, i knew that if i have to fully join and be able to participate, i need to change my job, i work in the force intelligence, and i have my company now, so that i can serve my God with the best group here the jehovahs witnesses,they are practically good,and when i see allegation against them,i investigate,and realised that apart from being sentimental,these people are still on track.and thats my opinion anyway, and you dont need to agree with that, but i want my decision to be respected.

for example, i gave definations of what constitutes 'a date' here,which must be a particular day, in a particular month, but you did not answer that?

you accused jws of 'fixing a date' but come out with 'a particular year' as an evidence? does that tally? on technical grounds, your case is knocked off!!!

your allegation is based on the fact that jesus said, nobody knows the 'day and hour', there was no mention of 'year' by jesus, at least there was a nissan callendar then of which jesus was aware about,and that he could also have included 'the year'.

and on the issue that can a fixed period of a prophecy change? yes is the answer, i quoted jonah chapt.3 and 4. expecially when jonah had already shouted throughout Ninneveh that ''just 40 days''
the city 'will be' destroyed, he gave no condition why the plan had to change, but the ninnevites on their own did what touch God,and God himself have to postpone that destruction.

You can see why jonah said in chapter 4:1-4 that he prefer to die rather than prophesied ind it did not come to pass,but that destruction never took place in jonahs lifetime.Now nobody knew how jonah was ridiculed by theologians then who must have being envying him! but that alone does not stop him,but he knows that God has the exclusive power to decide on matters.
Another prophet Nahum was called to prophecy destruction again when The same ninevites returned to their evil practice again.now one would ask that why will God pronounce another destruction on the same city that never happen in the first prophecy by jonah,and to them jonahs prophecy did not pass of failed, but then not even in Nahums lifetime was nineveh destroyed, but later when God feel that there are no good people there, it was destroyed tottally by the babylon.

So, the issue of endtime was blown out of proportion, when your see the claims people posted expecially t-med, was an amalgamation of sentences (join-join) 'in quote' as you can see all assertions there are in 'quotes' and was removed from a body of paragraphs,and you will agree with me that before you can understand a particular notion, it has to be understood first 'in its original context' before relating it to a secondary context.so, i cant work with join-join or coat of many feathers assertions.

and moreover, the emphasis for worshipping God is by doing Gods will or organisation that 'truly uphold values' and can control vices to a considerable way, i think the jws are trying in this.

I was first touched to be a jw in 1999, the day a dean of a faculty then in university of ibadan Proffessor ikpi, knocked on our gate at Adegbola ibadan, he was preaching from house to house, this is a man that ordinarily, you will need to pass through several protocols to see him in his office, after his brief witnessing on that day, i ask him why he is a jw?he said that he joined at age 41,and that i need to do my own study and make independent researches on my own, but we did not talk about it again we all moved on, and since then im taking my time to my research.and convinced to join after my company attain some stability, so talking of confusion here does not set in at all!!!.









,

@t-med

Kindly do me a favour by answering this simple question(just a yes or no will do, u don't need to bury ur thought in words)

has ur organization ever prohesy wrongly?

no, im not yet a jws, but act as a 'vendor of first part' to jesus prophecy!!! okay?

Did they say resurrection would happen in 1925 or not? ( i believe U shuld know this, u don't need o ask me to provide evidences, only if u are trying to cover up d errors of ur organization, [size=18pt]after all you must have heard of Bethasim[/size], even non- JW know this

im dying with laughter here brother! what is Bethasim? must i help you to do your home work?

@t-med

i said that im not a jehovahs witnesses yet,

but your claim on 607 BCE is what im waiting for, give me your counter claim here!!! 607 is not correct,then impress me with counter claim, omo naija!

I'm fully aware dat we will disagree when trying to prove whom the 70 years referred to. I've also noticed that many JW prefer to talk about the organization's doctrine e.g Blood, God's name,607 BCE etc however, many of them do not like to discuss their organization's past; the failed prophecies;1925,1975 embarassing failure and the beautiful mansion Rutherford bought for Abraham and others in the bible, to prove his resurrection doctrine.

Kindly do me a favour by answering this simple question(just a yes or no will do, u don't need to bury ur thought in words)

has ur organization ever prohesy wrongly?

Did they say resurrection would happen in 1925 or not? ( i believe U shuld know this, u don't need o ask me to provide evidences, only if u are trying to cover up d errors of ur organization, after all you must have heard of Bethasim, even non- JW know this(not sure if i spelt it right though))

I cannot but wonder why JW ignore this past especially When pple demand a reasonable explanation for the failure.

They just want don't want to face d fact

I will not be surprised if u do not answer any question about their failed prophecy. After all, that's what most JW do(although,i will be sincerely glad if u do otherwise)

.

your write up above shows that you are shying away, provide the full pages pls!!!

WOW,

My broda JW has a well organised archive and library and a resourceful compedium where u can access this information. Many pple have quotated the yr and date most of these articles were published and u want a scan copy of the article? Even if a whole booklet is scanned as a proof, u will still not acept. U might say the letters are faint or the scanner quality is low. If i were u i will copy down the dates the magazines or books were alleged to be published and find out it they r thru of false. No one needs to be spool-fed again cos we r all adults. Its so simple if u r really sincere in ur argument, get the dates the articles were published, the title, the pages quoted, and do ur confirmatn if they are true or false. We r not in a law court where the complainant will be asked to provide exhibit, its just funny to bring up logic here after enough info hav been provided as a basis for ur research.

If i may be correct, a plaintiff supplies claim, and not the respondent!

supply your claims and see wheather i will reject it, many onlookers are here, if its correct,i wont ehn?

Whats up there is just an amalgamation of sentences 'in quote' as you can see all your assertions are in 'quotes' and was removed from a body of paragraphs, what you will need to do is supply the full pages of the quoted magazines. i cant work with that

im waiting pls?

@t-med
We are not speaking latin here, you Mentioned 607 BCE as wrong, below;

Who says their teaching isn't false?

The 607 BCE is wrong, that means that the 1914 chronology is baseless.

Now before you claimed that ones calculation is wrong,courtesy demands that you provide ' a counter claim', that is 'your own calculation independent of the jws' and i clearly state that earlier and you saw it,see it again below;

[b]Can you in your own terms or your own calculation proved that 'the 607 BCE is wrong' not neccesarilly depending on jws calculation which is wrong but your own calculation [/b]that is deemed right to dislodge or counter that of the jws?

you have not provided 'your own caculation' and unless you do that their own caculation stands.
all your quotes below did not show any caculation indicting 607 BCE,not even (one)mention of 607BCE,is that how you jump from one thing unsettled to another?,See it yourself now below;

Firstly,

He believed Armageddon had started in 1874 and would end in 1914

"… the battle of the great day of God Almighty … The date of the close of that "battle" is definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 January 15 p.23

Howevr the modern day JW say it thıs way:
"Jehovah's witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the start of "the conclusion of the system of things." Awake! 1973 January 22 p.8

But this is what the leader back then said:
"But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. Zion's Watch Tower 1894 July 15 p.226

Secondly,

He further believed that the resurrectıon d end would start come in 1925 ( Rutherford said this when he assumed the organisation's presidential position)

"Seventy jubilees of fifty years each would be a total of 3500 years. That period of time beginning 1575 before A.D. 1 of necessity would end in the fall of the year 1925, at which time the type ends and the great antitype must begin. What, then, should we expect to take place? The chief thing to be restored is the human race to life; and since other Scriptures definitely fix the fact that there will be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful ones of old, and that these will have the first favour, we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected and fully restored to perfect humanity and made the visible, legal representatives of the new order of things on earth." Millions Now Living Will Never Die p.88

Please comment on these statements first before we move to the next phase. Were they right or wrong? In other words, did their prophecy fail or not?
More so, is it possible for the revelation of the Holy Spirit to fail?

Again, when i say that you should provide 'evidence' what i mean is ( copies or pages of the alledged jehovahs witnesses magazines,either scanned,as a certified true copy} and not the amalgamation of sentences 'in quote' as you can see all your assertions are in 'quotes' and was removed from a body of paragraphs, what you will need to do is supply the full pages of the quoted magazines.

you know that im not yet a full jw, im will not have the time to seach for it, but for substancial evidence to be launched, i need full or scanned copies. before i can comment. im waiting pls

@true2God,
Thanks for your response, but then lets examine them;

If u say human being make mistakes, yes its true and globally acceptable.

i have not admitted any error or mistake here,and i dont think i need someone to do that for me in anticipation.

But non fix dates, eg 1914, as time of 'his presence' cos it all amount to bringin the gospel of christ into ridicule.Mathew 24 gave us an ample sign or event that must occur before the comin of the messiah. The scripture described likely events, natural disasters on a global scale, nations going on war, as a sign to herald his comin. Jesus further said the 'time of my comin knw man knws'.

Date is a 'noun' isn'nt it?
date/dāt/
Noun:
The day of the month or year as specified by a number.
a. Time stated in terms of the day, month, and year. b. A statement of calendar time, as on a document. 2. [i]A specified day [/i]of a month.


with the meaning of what is generally acceptable as a defination of 'date', can you show me where jws fix a particular ''date'' and state the particular day;DD/MM/YY etc?

I dnt tink u r familiar with Berth serim of 1925. Where JW predited the comin to earth of great men of faith which was later proved false (u can prove me wrong).

yes im aware of berth Sarim, and what connection does the alledged aquisition of a property had on 1925?
can you just tell me in your own words,few precisely?

i have proved to you in my last post that Gods time can change,there is no doubt about it that when the 40days that jonah has shouted to the Nineveh lapsed and the distruction was postponed, jonah was andry with God, hear him again;
JONAH 4:1-4;
4 This change of plans greatly upset Jonah, and he became very angry. 2 So he complained to the Lord about it: “Didn’t I say before I left home that you would do this, Lord? That is why I ran away to Tarshish! I knew that you are a merciful and compassionate God, slow to get angry and filled with unfailing love. You are eager to turn back from destroying people. [size=14pt]3 Just kill me now, Lord! I’d rather be dead than alive if what I predicted will not happen.”[/size]

4 The Lord replied, “Is it right for you to be angry about this?”

That God can choose to have change of plans does'nt make a prophet a liar!!!
Thanks.

The Clown,

This thread still dey?

im still waiting for the details of your claim that form the basis for this story, and ready to contact the jehovahs witnesses cong. responsible, all you need to do is give the details of all individuals in the case and send to barnabas_oba@yahoo.com, i will give detailed analysis on this forum. this is to establish the genuineness of your claim on jehovahs witnesses.

@t-med

Thank you for your post,however you need to expanciate on each of theses below with proofs, here wo go;

Who says their teaching isn't false?

The 607 BCE is wrong, that means that the 1914 chronology is baseless.

Can you in your own terms or your own calculation proved that 'the 607 BCE is wrong' not neccesarilly depending on jws calculation which is wrong but your own calculation that is deemed right to dislodge or counter that of the jws? clearly stating your points.

and if you alternatively feel that 1914 events has proved 607 B.C.E wrong,then can you supply bible verse to support why you think is false?.

He believed Armageddon had occured in 1914

can you clearly state with proof where Russel had 'relied on his personal belief' or prophesied that Armagedon had already occured? by providing a sound evidence.

He further belived that d end would come in 1925

clearly state with 'proof' where Russel had 'relied on his personal belief' that the end would come in 1925

what about the generation teaching,'idolatry' of jesus etc?

can you expanciate on these pls?

Yet, the board of directors in NY have ones called themselves God's prophet

oh, i would love to see where 'these board of director' actually reffer 'only to theirself' over the rest of the witnesses as prophets.
pls supply your proofs.

The holy spirit revelation is always inspired. This can't be said of the teachings of the Watch Tower society.

I feel that it is just a legal entity directed by men.

thank God you knew that they are not operating illegally, so pls supply substancial proofs clearly butressing each allegation as stated above, not speculations or hear-says pls.

thanks.

@OLAADEGBU

Just to show you that i have went through the purported video,and found nothing substancial as evidence, its just a calculated charade to promote a new church.
The man Daniel Grisson in the video is a businessman with some ideas about sales, he holds a masters degree, and for that reason he finds things like this below,very difficult to abide with;

hebrews 13:17

''Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you''.

while he was still learning with jws as claimed by him, he simply would not comply with simple instructions best known to him because he believed that there must be a reason for giving instructions in the first place.

so, he failed to cooperate with the direction of the leaders,simple!
he also believed that direction given on 1914 and jesus coming does not satisfy his own personal belief.

But the fact remains that he confessed not to be a baptised jws, and that alone shows that he did not even went through their learning process and even if he attain few knowledge, his masters degree makes him more superior to be a jws. isn'nt it?

but he admitted below;

Today, I am a baptized Christian and[b] a member of Cross Pointe Church in Duluth, GA.[/b]

a church founded less that a decade ago, so he wants to recruit many to join Cross Pointe Church

nothing can be put together on the site www.JWtruth.org and his targets are new people who are prospective jws, finish.

but back to the topic,Daniel claimed innacuracy in 1914 calculation, when he also countered himself that he was an 'unbaptised witness' which shows that he had not even sit down to link bible prophecy with the i914 issue and no counter proof on his own part dispell the jws stand on 1914 other than verbal rejection, and that is noteworthy!!!

his 'sincerity for innaccuracy' brand shows that he is puffed up with knowlege and wordly wisdom,i saw Daniel videos bosting about what jws termed 'wordly things' or 'material aquisitions',jws are not saying its bad,but in parallel with 'the faith' can daniel boast in faith the way he boasted in tutoring brands? but what did apostle paul says about understanding Gods word, he identified 'one' particular barrier, see the bolded below;

1 corinthians 1:20-21;
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? [size=14pt]Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?[/size] 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, [size=18pt]God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.[/size]

so simple, he viewed jws as promoting foolishness, but here is a piece for that in the bible;God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

now, can you now forward details of jws that the OP said was involve in his case? to my link above for investigation, im waiting pls.

@OLAADEGBU,

Come off your high horse and smell the coffee! Information on why folks leave JW's are all over the world wide web and you are here feigning ignorance. Help yourself to a videolink of why people leave JW's

I HAVE ONLY ASK FOR DETAILS FOR INVESTIGATION, AND IM NOT GOING TO CHARGE YOU, BUT YOU AND YOUR MEN ARE BRINGING CONCORTED CLAIMS THAT NEED TO BE INVESTIGATED, DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY ENGLISH, GIVE ME DETAILS OF THE CONGREGATION AND ELDERS INVOLVED,SO THAT PEOPLE CAN ALSO HAVE THEIR OWN VIEW SO THAT EVERYONE ON THE FORUM WILL BE OUR JUDGE.
ANYBODY CAN SIT DOWN ANYWHERE TO FORMULATE A LIE. BUT FAILURE TO GIVE THE NAMES OF ELDERS AND CONG. INVOLVED SHOWS THAT YOU ARE A LIAR.
REMEMBER THAT IM NOT YET A JWS, BUT I DARED YOU TO SUPPLY THE DETAILS THAT CAN REALLY BE CONFIRMED, AND I WILL GET BACK HERE FOR FEEDBACK SIMPLE!!!

THE GUY IN THE VIDEO CLAIMED THAT HE IS 'AN UNBAPTISED PUBLISHER' MEANING THAT HE IS NOT A JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES.CONFIRMED BAPTISED WITNESSES CAN ONLY BE REVIEWED!

In 1997, I started studying with the Jehovah's Witnesses. They were so sincere, so studious and so kind. After a year or so, I began going out in field service as an un-baptized publisher.

THIS ADDMITTANCE ON HIS SIDE HAD ALREADY NULLIFIED ANY CLAIM IN THE VIDEO AS NULL VOID AND OF NO EFFECT. SUPPLY FACTS PLS. if you want it privately,forward it here; barnabas_oba@yahoo.com

BUT I WILL COME HERE FOR THE FEEDBACK. WAITING PLS!

@The clown;

im still waiting for the details of your claim that form the basis for this story, and ready to contact the jehovahs witnesses cong. responsible, all you need to do is give the details of all individuals in the case and send to barnabas_oba@yahoo.com, i will give detailed analysis on this forum. this is to establish the genuineness of your claim on jehovahs witnesses. [size=18pt]waiting pls! [/size]

@naija2much;

@barrister, I think for things of the spirit, u don't do physical research and decide, you should ask God for wisdom and let him decide for you.

how do you mean? can you pls expanciate what you mean? waiting pls!

@true2God,

i expect you to insult,ehn, but one thing that you should know is that jws will never succumb to cheap blackmail,

when you say they nullify dates,or bogus dates, and also saying they should own up concorted claims,its just laughable, many suffers from the 'endtime phobia' just hearing that alone can make many to run from pillar to post, but anyway just to remind you, you dont need to agree with the jws, ok? live your independent life to the full pls. God bless you,thanks.

@true2God

im just experiencing what apostle paul really reffer to as scoffers! its a really serious thing, compare your accusations here with that;

Who did the calcualation? Who sanctioned the calculation? Who has the right to give another bogus date? Who has the right to nullify the date? The ansa is the JW GB.

2 peter 3:3-7;
3[b] Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say,[/b][size=14pt] “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. [/size]6[b] By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.[/b]

jesus gave the right to true christians to 'take note' and stay alert.

paul was a christian leader and see what was written concerning his ways of keeping the christians then alert;
verse 14-17;

14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, [size=14pt]speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.[/size]

as you can see above,the GB letters contain things that are hard for you to understand,and it will be advisable for you not to be found fighter against God. because he uses his servants that are even gulible to promote his purpose.

@The clown

One I received just said "You suck! I'm a JW and you're going to die at Armageddon". I always reply and ask for a reason why I should remain a JW. If I get a reply they usually say because the Watchtower organisation is God's only true one on earth,

can you reveal the person who said this above,are you sure? in your later writings above because i want to investigate.

but no scriptural basis for their belief. If you tell them about the Watchtower's past, false prophecies, changes in doctrine, doctrine that changes to new then back to old, then even back again to new. They say I'm making it up, when it can all be found in their own publications.

your claims above is laughable, because im seing ''OLAADEGBU IN DISGUISE HERE'' trying to play on emotions.

may i ask you that did jws prophecy? or it was jesus who actually did the endtime prophecy?,or that the jws actually directs your attention to what jesus says would be sign to watch out for in the endtime,or are you not aware that the 1st and 2nd world war claimed one third and two third respectively of worlds inhabitants the worst ever in human's history?,and that alone constitutes the whole sign of luke 10:21-30? and are you saying that jesus endtime prophecy would not be fuffiled? or do you join jws only to escape into Gods kingdom? you claimed to be 28yrs old but there is no sign that you are once a jws,''YOU CANNOT EVEN QUOTE ONE BIBLE VERSE IN ALL YOUR WRITE UP HERE IS NOTEWORTHY'' even a 5yr old jws will answer you logically using the bible.

you see, people who needs Gods kingdom must work for it bro.

@The clown

I Left Jehovah's Witnesses After 28 Years
My Story by Gordon Cook


June 2000

I first met Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) in March 1971, I would be 20 the following month. I had always had an interest in the Bible, not that my parents had been religious in any sense. But I wanted to know why this particular book had such an influence on people. But really had no idea what to do about it and where to learn. My friends and I at the time used to have long discussions about religion, meaning of life etc. Sometimes when we where in a local bar, we would have everyone in the room involved. One of these friends worked with a man who was a JW (actually he was just having a study with the JWs at the time and was baptised later) and he used to come back and tell me about it. It sounded interesting and I asked to meet him. The JW arranged for me to meet another one who was more experienced. The way in which this JW answered my questions impressed me. The answers were clear, concise and logical. He used the Bible to answer questions. A regular study was arranged using the book "The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life" which is no longer used. I also started to attend the meetings at the local Kingdom Hall. I knew a few of those who were there as I worked in a local shop and they were customers.

In time I became convinced that this was the "truth" and was baptised on January 6th.1972. I was a fairly shy person and found the door-to-door preaching work hard going. But as what you were going to say was usually set out for you it wasn't to bad. Eventually I joined the Theocratic Ministry School in the congregation where you where taught to speak, give talks etc. If there is anything that I am grateful for to the JWs is that they did teach me how to get up in front of an audience and speak. By the time I left I was able to give talks, handle items on the platform ranging from 5 minutes to 45 minutes, in front of 100+ people.

One thing I must say at this point is that though this was the early 1970's and the well known year of 1975 was coming up. I can honestly say that in the congregation I was in it was never put over as a big thing, in fact it was rarely mentioned. Yet from what I have read recently other congregations took to it in a big way. In fact through the years I noticed how congregations did vary in some ways from each other.

In 1974 I got married to a JW sister. In the due course of time between 1975 to 1989 we had seven children. Of course our life centred on being JWs, attending meeting, field ministry, going to conventions etc. I became a Ministerial Servant in 1988. All in all we had a fairly good life, I didn't have a well paid job but we managed.

Through the years as a JW I never really questioned any teachings, except for the way in which Jesus Christ was sort of given a secondary role, when the Scriptures clearly stated that He was the only means if being saved. Everything was "Jehovah" centred, we must use the name of Jehovah, Jehovah did this or that, be part of Jehovah's organisation to be saved. Yet when reading the Greek scriptures, the whole emphasis is on Jesus being the only means of salvation. Every writer, Paul, James, John, Peter, Jude all spoke about Jesus with no mention of Jehovah. When asking any Elder about this I would get a vague answer, "Jehovah's the only one" or "Those scriptures are only for the 144,000." I now know that according to the Watchtower organisation the ordinary JW, (those not of the 144,000 or one of the 8,000 plus of that group left on Earth.) have no relationship with Christ, because according to the Watchtower, Christ is only mediator between Jehovah and the "anointed" 144,000. The only way an ordinary JW can approach God is through the fact that the Watchtower is the only channel.

But I digress, lets get back to where I am now. In 1989 we moved to a bigger house. This meant extra expense, 5 bedroom house, 7 children you can imagine. Also I wanted my children to have what I could give them, I wanted a family life that a JW should have. Bills kept coming in and I started to use credit cards to pay them, you can imagine what was going to happen, I took out a loan to try and pay everything off. I kept all this hidden from my wife, because I knew she wouldn't approve and also that as a JW you weren't suppose to get yourself into debt. I suppose also being from a upbringing where the man was considered the breadwinner, I felt I was letting everyone down. I am not proud of how I got into that state. If I had turned round and said "we can't afford it" it might have been different. Its with great sorrow that I feel I betrayed the trust of my wife and family. As a husband and father I wanted the best for my family and that sometimes clouds your judgment and I must carry that side of it with me. By the beginning of 1996 the pressure of all this became too much and by April I had a breakdown. I won't go in to details over what I did, but basically I walked out of the house one morning never intending to return, planning to commit suicide. I ended up in the Lake District.

One night I decided the time had come, so I took about 30 or so Paracetmol tablets, some aspirin and drank a bottle of brandy. This was while sitting on a hill overlooking a valley, it was beautiful. But I felt I had lost everything, wife, family and my God. I gradually fell unconscious, only to wake up the next morning, still on the hill, feeling awful. I went back to the guesthouse, spent the day in bed, taking even more tablets. I was still here the next day, for some reason, and so decided to head back home. Eventually I got to a hospital and told them what I had done. They put me on a drip, next day they said considering what I had taken there was hardly any trace of anything in my blood. My wife had been contacted, we had a tearful reunion. Subsequently, I was due to spend about 4 weeks in a psychiatric hospital. I was diagnosed as having acute clinical depression and that I had probably had it for about three years or more and that this was the culmination of it. I was given ECT treatment. One aside was that whenever any of the medical staff found out I was a JW. They would sort of say "Well, that explains it", one of the psychiatrists said that depression was very common amongst JW and I was the fourth one that year.

Now during all this I thought that "Jehovah's loving organisation" would help me recover. Boy! Was I wrong. While in the hospital my wife would visit, as it was some distance she usually got a lift, most times from an Elder of the congregation. You would think they would try and give me some encouragement, but they usually came and said hello then waited outside. I saw other patients visited by their ministers who spent time talking to them.

When I was allowed home I had visits from those concerned with my "case." They did not seem to be able to deal with it. The main concern was how soon can we have a "judicial committee" , they seem to spend more time talking to my wife than me. Also I got the feeling my wife was more concerned with the shame that it brought on her and what her standing in the congregation was, from the time I came home we never slept together again.

At this point I want to say thanks to one JW who helped me. Remember I still had the debts. He put me in touch with a person who deals with such things to see if they could come up with a solution, but eventually I had to be declared bankrupt. That brother paid for that person to help. Even though I had not seen him for a long time, of them all, he was the only one to give any practical help and I will always be grateful to him.

I was eventually brought before a "judicial committee" and was "privately reproved." Their whole answer to my problem was "go on the preaching work, attend meetings." To anyone who has depression the last thing you want to do is knock on doors and talk to strangers. This is when I started getting the feeling that it was not the "loving organisation" I thought it was. Over the following weeks I got the impression that I was "persona non grata."

Then one day my wife told me she wanted me to leave the home, she even found me a bedsit and paid the deposit. Later on I was told that she had been told to do this by the Elders as I was considered a "spiritual danger" to the family. I moved to another town as my wife didn't want me to attend the same congregation. My new congregation was not interested in me either. In the three years I had been there I had one visit from an Elder and that was to ask why I wasn't going on the ministry. One sister there said that in the twenty years she had been there she has never had an Elder visit her. While attending a circuit assembly an Elder from another congregation I knew came up to me and said how sorry he was to hear about what happened, he seemed to know it all, I asked how he knew, he said "There are some brothers who can't keep their mouth shut" when he was going he said "They'll get rid of you, they don't know how to deal with you, you're an embarrassment to them." Up till now I still believed the Watchtower to be God's organisation, but doubts where beginning to appear. Then one day, just over a year ago in the local library, I came across the book "Awake to the Watchtower" by Doug Harris and Bill Browning by the Reachout Trust. I picked it up and thought "another of those books against JWs" and sat down to see what lies were being said. I sat and practically read the whole book. I saw Scripture in a new light (to use a JW saying).

I felt something lift from me especially when I read about Christ being the only way to salvation, it brought back what I had thought years ago. It also brought attention to the Watchtower not being God's organisation and much more.

But I had to have more evidence, the library had recently had a computer section installed where for a fee you could use them. I decided to look on the Internet to see if there was anything. Boy! what stuff did I find! Being of a cautious nature I checked and double checked what I was finding. It was all clear evidence that for the past 28 years it had all been a lie. The Watchtower Society started to condemn the Internet, virtually saying it was Satan's tool and only apostates used it and put lies on it. I got the feeling they were scared of what it contained because they couldn't control it. I started to amass a huge amount of information, from how the WT had changed doctrine to false prophecy. I spoke to various ones over the phone, ex-JWs who had been in it for 20, 30, 40 or more years and then found out the truth. Because of learning all this I was at a meeting at the Kingdom Hall in August 1999, listening to the speaker I realised it was the same old thing "do more hours, place more books this is the only way to get spiritual and be close to God." That was my last meeting. I have never had a visit from the Elders, not even to see if I was coming to the Memorial, which is what I had decided was my cut off point, if they didn't contact me then for such an important event then they didn't care about me, so I finished with them.

I now realised that I needed to talk to someone about it. So I got in touch with the Reachout Trust and they put me in contact with one of their representatives Vince McCann, who I am grateful to for putting up with me over the last few months and giving me some spiritual support. A couple of weeks ago he took me to a Christian meeting, where we watched a film about Christ. It was a simple meeting nothing special, the person in charge, not a minister or Elder, just an ordinary man who is a Christian, gave a short talk and asked a prayer. He asked if anyone wanted to give themselves to Christ to raise their hand. I did! Now I need to learn more about Christ. There is probably a lot more I could have put in this story, but some of them are still hurtful to me.

November 2000 update

During the last 3 months I have been attending an Elim Pentecostal church. At first I found it quite strange, because it was so full of emotion. The singing, raising hands in the air, shouts of praise, people talking in tongues. All this to a JW is extremely strange and considered satanic, because of the JW view of other religions. Because of the past experience I was very wary at first and not wanting emotion to lead me down the wrong path again. But having spoken to members of this church and attended Bible classes they hold and a house group. I have come to learn that they have a genuine love for God and Christ, not based on being part of some organisation that claims to be Gods only true organisation. The only book they use is the Bible, no magazines or books like the JWs, just the Bible. When they say a Bible study that is what it is, not using some book and the Bible on the side. At the house groups they discuss various aspects of Christian life and I mean discuss, not following some format laid down by an organisation. I have started what is called a "Nurture" course where you learn about the basics of Christian faith, Christ, salvation, baptism, prayer etc. If you don't agree with some aspect of the teachings you are not considered an apostate or troublemaker. There is a great belief in the power of the Holy Spirit bringing people to God and guiding them. There is also a tremendous belief in the power of prayer, I don't think I have come across a group who pray so much at their meetings.

As time goes on I am learning more an more about the true Christian faith. I have learnt about the true Christ not the one the JWs believe is the Archangel Michael, which is an insult to both Jehovah and Christ. Oh! Yes, Christians do use the name Jehovah, maybe not as often as the JWs but they do use it and know it is God's name. They also call on people from door to door, maybe not in such a highly organised way as the JWs but they do, do it. They call it an Outreach ministry where they try to tell people about Christ and the hope and love He holds out to them. They do not tell people that they have to be part of some organisation to be saved, but to believe in Christ and follow Him.

What affect has this had on me? I feel that a burden has been lifted from me that I am no longer following the teachings of a man-made organisation who wants to control people's lives. I no longer attend meetings where you worry about what "they" think of you. No longer is the love shown to you conditional that you "toe the party line" and accept all without question. This does not mean that everything is all well, I still have periods of depression, I still have financial problems. But now I know I have someone you I can turn to and understands and no matter what happens that Christ will be there to help me through it all.

What about my family? Those children of mine who live with me have noticed a difference in me. My daughter said that I seem less inhibited and have a happier attitude, she has expressed an interest in attending one of the meetings at the church. The children who live wife my wife I see every week. Though they still go to the JW meetings with my wife they have no desire to be one. My wife has not spoken to me for about a year. I have not disassociated myself from the JWs or as far as I know I have not been disfellowshipped as when I'm out they still say hello to me. No JW elder has been to see me or contacted me in any way for 15 months since I last attended a meeting at the Kingdom Hall.

Judging by what has been happening with the Watchtower organisation in recent months over the blood doctrine and reorganisation, etc., many JWs are in a state of confusion as to what or which way they organisation is going. Some who I have spoken to have been shaken by the way the blood doctrine has been whittled away to such an extent that it barely means anything now. To them this was one of the main doctrines that set them apart from Christendom. Just like the change in the "1914 generation" teaching it has hit their confidence in the organisation. It will be interesting to see in coming months what develops.

Though my leaving the JWs has been a painful process. I now know the true meaning of relying on God and not a man-made organisation. Since my story has appeared on the Internet I have had many many letters from ex-JW's giving support, JWs wanting to leave and how difficult they find it. People wanting help in dealing with JWs, those with family or friends who are JWs or are studying with them. One thing I must say is that when I get the occasional letter from a serving JW it always has the same style, they are usually arrogant, self-righteous, and sometimes downright abusive, using words I thought a JW wouldn't know. One I received just said "You suck! I'm a JW and you're going to die at Armageddon". I always reply and ask for a reason why I should remain a JW. If I get a reply they usually say because the Watchtower organisation is God's only true one on earth, but no scriptural basis for their belief. If you tell them about the Watchtower's past, false prophecies, changes in doctrine, doctrine that changes to new then back to old, then even back again to new. They say I'm making it up, when it can all be found in their own publications.

If anyone wants to make any comment about the above please write to : swgco2@netscape.net

unfortunately,i have only heard from you now,and i have seen write up like this that tries to present jws in bad light only to get into investigations and i discovered things that jws will not compromised on which you knew before or livestyles that would tanish image of jws that cannot be condoned, like i have seen someone whom they studied with and has fully joined only to start smoking 'igbo' marijuanah and warned people not to reveal it, only to be ambushed and revealed,he felt bittered and was says that jws should have protected him,but not also thinking of the bad name that it will bring to the org.im not saying that is your case,but i have seen areas that you have hidden your faults, you edited your story, and can you pls mention your congregation and i pay an independent visit there, and im very sure that some hidden facts will be uprooted, if you know that your story is true give us the address and details of those who handled your case or direct it to barnabas_oba@yahoo.com, but know that i will come here to make my findings public,with proofs,so if you are sure, im waiting pls!

@true2God,

IM NOT YET A JWS,BUT NOTHING STOPS ME FROM BECOMING A FULL MEMBER SOON, BASED ON GOOD REASEACHES I HAVE DONE ABOUT THEM, BUT I REALISED THAT YOU HAVE LISTENED A LOT TO HATERS OF JWS WHO WERE DISFELLOWSHIPED FOR VARIOUS REASONS, E.G. SOME WHO WANTS TO FOOL GOD BY PRETENDING TO BE RIGHTEOUS SO AS TO GAIN ENTRY INTO GODS KINGDOM, THESE INDIVIDUALS 'LOOKS VERY HONEST OUTWARDLY AND IN THEIR PRESENTATIONS'WHILE THEY ARE WITH THE JWS THEY HIDE THEIR TRUE MOTIVES, BUT INSIDE THEM,THEY ARE BENT TO PROMOTE THEIR OWN SELFISH LIFESTYLES AT THE EXPENCE OF THE MAJORITY AND AFTER WHAT THEY EXPECTED DO NOT COME TO PASS ,THEY RETURNED TO THEIR OPPULENCE LIFESTYLES WHEN THEY COULD NOT FOOL GOD.
WHILE SOME HERE WERE CATHOLICS THAT I HAVE ENGAGED PERSONALLY BUT LATER THEY ADMITTED THAT THEIR BELIEFS EXPECIALLY TRINITY WERE UNDEFENDED IN THE BIBLE,ITS NECCESARY TO KNOW THAT ON THESE TREAD TO REALLY COMPARE JEHOVAHS WITNESSES WITH THOSE QUESTIONING THEM ON THIS PAGE,DO THEY HAVE THE MORAL JUSTIFICATION TO CHALLENGE THEM?. NOW THE WANT TO FORCE END TIME PROPHECY ON JWS,WHILE JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONE THAT TRULLY TAKE THAT RESPONSIBILITY OF PROPHECYING, BASED ON THE BOOK OF LUKE AND BOOK OF REVELATION, SO KEEPING THE PUBLIC ALERT IS NOT A CRIME COMPARED TO OLAADEGBU PROMOTING TRINITY THAT WAS NOT INSIDE THE BIBLE BUT WANTED PEOPLE TO ACCEPT SOMETHING THAT HAS NO ROOT IN THE BIBLE. ENDTIME PROPHECY HOLDS AND MUST COME, OKAY?
I WANT YOU TO DO YOUR INDEPENDENT UNBIASED FINDINGS AND YOU WILL BE SURPRISED, BUT GET THIS STRAIGHT NOW, JWS HAVE NO REASON WHATSOEVER TO ADMIT ANY GUILT WHATSOEVER BECAUSE ALL THEIR DIRECTIONS STANDS,UNTIL YOU GUYS ACTUALLY TAKE YOUR TIME TO SEE THE REAL ISSUES AT STAKE HERE,OK?

As a matter of fact i studied, before, with one or two JW friends before deciding to halt it. Before JW, the church in general knew that we are in the 'last days' and had always being anticipating the comin of the lord (act 2).

YOU ARE NOT SINCERE BY SAYING THAT '']the church in general knew that we are in the 'last days' and had always being anticipating the comin of the lord''

FIRSTLY, WHEN YOU TALK OF THE IMPACT OF CHURCH GENERALLY TODAY ON FOR EXAMPLE IN NIGERIA AS A CASE STUDY, EVERY CORNER IN NIGERIAN RURAL AND URBAN AREAS CONSIST OF VARIOUS CHURCHES IN CONTAINERS EVEN ILLEGAL STRUCTURES ARE USED FOR CHURCHES,AND WE CAN CONCLUDE THAT WE ARE VERY RELIGIOUS, BUT NOW DOES THAT SHOW IN OUR CHARACTER? PLS ANSWER THAT,

WHY DO I SAY THAT, WE (NIGERIA) RANKED TOP ON THE CORRUCPTION LIST, WHICH MEANS OUR BEING RELIGIOUS DOES NOT AFFECT OUR BEHAVIOUR TOWARDS OUR NEIGBORS, WE DUPE THEM,CHEAT THEM,INSULT THEM,MOLEST THEM,STEAL THEIR MONIES AND THE CHURCH WILL NOT SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT,BECAUSE THEY WILL NOT WANT TO SEE THINGS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE POOR BUT RATHER FROM THE RICH.

GREATER CHURCHES TODAY TENDS TO FAVOR THE RICH, WHILE BEING POOR WAS PRONOUNCED A SIN,SOMETHING THAT JESUS DID NOT TEACH.
WHAT WE HAVE TODAY IS PROSPERITY TEACHING REPLACING GODS KINGDOM.
WE ARE TOLD THAT 'GODS KINGDOM WILL BE IN THIS PRESENT WORLD SYSTEM' ASK PASTOR BAKARE.

PEOPLE DONT SEE ANY NEED TO ADJUST THEIR LIFESTYLE OR EVEN HAVE CONCIENCE AS SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO GIVE AN ACCOUNT,
LET ME TELL YOU, THE PRONOUNCEMENT THAT GODS KINGDOM IS NEAR AND AND END TO THE WICKED ALWAYS CAUSE 'FEAR IN THE MIND OF SOME CHRISTIANS WHO KNEW THAT THEY ARE NOT DOING WHAT GOD HAD ASK US TO DO TO BENEFIT FROM THE KINGDOM.
SO IT IS EASY TO SAY THAT 'WELL WE ARE EXPECTING GODS KINGDOM VERBALLY' BUT THE GENERAL VIEW OF CHURCHES TODAY FAVOR THIEVES AND ROGUES TO STEAL AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND MAKE A MOCKERY KINGDOM OF GOD FOR HIMSELF HERE ON EARTH WITH THEIR LOOT, PAY THEIR TITHES AND OFFERINGS BUT THAN HOW LONG CAN THEY LIVE TO ENJOY,....JUST LESS THAN A HUNDRED YEARS, WHAT A SHAME.....TRUE CHRISTIAN EXPECTING GODS KINGDOM WOULD LIVE THEIR LIVES BY CONSTANTLY SEING THE UNFOLDING WORLD EVENTS AS A REASON TO ADJUST THEIR LIVESTYLES KNOWING WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR 'ONLY THE RIGHTEOUS' READ THE TRUE CONDITION OF GODS KINGDOM IN ISAIAH 65:21-25.''EVERYONE OWN A HOUSE AND WILL HAVE OCCUPANCY, THEY SHALL LIVE LONG,AND EVEN RELATIVE PEACE AMONG ANIMALS,THEY WILL NOT HURT ANYONE AGAIN,GOD OF ARMIES HAS SAID IT'' AND IT MUST COME TO PASS SOON.BUT YOU MUST WORK FOR IT.


SO HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE SOMEONE WHO SEEMS TO BE LIVING IN TODAYS KINGDOM AS A RICH MAN, HE BOUGHT A LION AND CAGED IT IN HIS COMPOUND BUT EVENTUALLY SAW THE GATE OF THE LION'S DEN OPENED WHILE RETURNING HOME ONE DAY, HOW DOES HE FEEL, SAFE? OH NO, HE LOCKED HIMSELF AND FAMILY WITH A PADLOCK
INSIDE THE LIONS DEN BEFORE CALLING THE SECURITY TO KNOW WHATS HAPPENING,

IN ALL, THATS NOT THE FAKE TEMPORARY KINGDOM THAT WE ARE EXPECTING,BUT A RELATIVELY PEACEFULL ONE.

But non did ever fix a particular date or use any unreliable chronology to to do mathematics of 'his presence' (a term used only after series of failed predictions).

JWS DID NOT FIX A DATE, AND WHEN YOU SAY UNRELIABLE BIBLE CHRONO. SHOWS A WEAK UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE.AND AS LONG AS JESUS HAVE ALERTED HIS DISCIPLES THAT 'WHEN YOU SEE ALL THESE EVENTS,WAR FAMINE DISORDERS HAPPENING,THAT THEY SHOULD KNOW THAT THEIR DELIVERANCE IS NEAR''

JESUS DRAW A PARRALLEL BETWEEN NOAH'S DAY AND HIS COMING SAYING USING ONE IMPORTANT PHRASE,''THEY TOOK NO NOTE''
SO IF JWS ARE KEEPING NOTES OF EVENTS AND CONNECTING IT WITH WHAT TRUE CHRISTIANS SHOULD EXPECT SO AS TO TURN TO GOD, THERE IS NO REGRET DOING THAT PLS,AND NO APOLOGY, NOTE THAT FEW PEOPLE WILL BE CALLED,SO LET ANYONE WHO WANTS TO LIVE OPPULENT LIVES LIVE THE WAY THEY WANT,JWS CANNOT HELP THEM WITH THE PHOBIA OF BEING REMINDED OF AN END TO THEIR RICHES,OK?

MAY I ASK YOU THAT DO YOU HAVE THAT THE PATIENT OFTEN DISPLAYED BY TRUE SERVANTS OF GOD OF OLD TO WAIT FOR GODS PROMISES. PEOPLE LIKE ABRAHAM WAS PROMISED A SON,BUT IT TAKES A WHOLE LOT OF TIME.
BUT DID ABRAHAM WAIVER IN HIS FAITH TO GOD OR EVEN PRONOUNCED GOD UNRELIABLE, FRIENDS AND RELATIVES ARE FOUND TO INFLUENCE ONES DECISION, BUT STUDYING GODS WAYS WILL SHOW YOU THAT IT IS NOT AN EASY THING TO LIVE RIGHTEOUSLY AND EXPECTING WHAT GOD WILL DO.

SO MOST OF PEOPLE POSING ON THESE FORUM HAVE NO RELIGION AT ALL, IN FACT I WAS IN DISCUSSION WITH ONE ON ONE TREAD AND WITH HIS INTERESTS ON RELIGION TOPICS IM SOMEHOW IMPERESED, BUT WHEN HE DECLARED THAT HE IS A 'HETEROSEXUAL' I JUST HAVE TO TAKE MY LEAVE. I KNEW OLAADEGBU AS A CATHOLIC FOLLOWER,AT LEAST HE IS DEFENDING THE CATHOLIC WITH FEW OTHERS, BUT THERE IS SOMEONE WHO KNEW HIMSELF WELL WHO MAY SOON JOIN THIS FORUM BUT HAS ALWAYS BEIGN PROPAGATING MISREPRESENTATION ON THIS TOPIC BUT HIDES HIS BELIEFS AND ASHAMED TO EXPRESS IT THE WAY A GAY OR SOMEONE WHO MASTURBATES HIDES THEIR IDENTITY,SO LISTENING TO VIEW FROM SUCH PEOPLE IS HARMFULL BECAUSE THEIR MOTIVES ARE HIDDEN UNTIL THEY OPENLY EXPRESS IT.

We understand ourselves here better cos we r xtains, if u fix a date of christ's presence to a non-xtain that neva come to pass for once u only bring xtainity into disrepute and serios questioning.

ARE YOU LIVING TO SATISFY HUMANS? NO SIR, THERE IS NO TRUE SERVANT OF GOD THAT WILL WANT TO SATISFY HUMANS OVER GOD, HAVE YOU READ JONAH'S CASE,

PLS READ AGAIN,
JONAH 3:4;4:4;
4 On the day Jonah entered the city, he shouted to the crowds: “Forty days from now Nineveh will be destroyed!”

A FIXED DAY BY JONAH DID CHANGE, AND HIS PROPHECY DID NOT HAPPEN IN HIS LIFETIME;

4 This change of plans greatly upset Jonah, and he became very angry. 2 So he complained to the Lord about it: “Didn’t I say before I left home that you would do this, Lord? That is why I ran away to Tarshish! I knew that you are a merciful and compassionate God, slow to get angry and filled with unfailing love. You are eager to turn back from destroying people. 3 Just kill me now, Lord! I’d rather be dead than alive if what I predicted will not happen.”

4 The Lord replied, “Is it right for you to be angry about this?”

THIS ABOVE EXAMPLE SHOWS THAT TRUE SERVANTS OF GOD DONT CARE WHAT PEOPLE SAYS SO FAR THEY ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING.
JWS AS A GROUP DONT CLAIM TO POSSESS VISIONS DIRECTLY FROM GOD SPEAKING TO THEM THE WAY GOD DID WITH THE PROPHETS OF OLD EVER BEFORE. THEY ALLUDE TO THIS FROM WHAT APOSTLE PAUL SAID THAT, GIFTS(PROPHESYING, TONGUE ETC) WILL 'CEAZE' AND WHAT CONSTITUTES GODS INSPIRATIONS GOD'S SERVANT TODAY IS NOT SAME AS OF OLD,BUT WARNINGS WERE GIVEN BY JESUS TO 'KEEP WATCH' OR 'TAKE NOTE'

AND LIKE I SAID, IT WOULD BE WRONG FOR YOU TO SAY THAT JESUS END TIME PROPHECY FAILED, I NOTICED THAT YOU HAVE CHANGED FROM USING 'PROPHECY' TO 'PREDICTION' BUT AGAIN,THE ONUS OF THE CLAIM REST ON JESUS AND NOT JWS.

IF WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW THAT IF PROPHECY DOES OCCUR AT A STIPULATED TIME,THAT MAKES IT UNREAL,JONAHS CASE ABOVE PROVED THAT EVEN A FIXED DAY CAN CHANGE DEPENDING ON GOD'S REASONS, AND YOU CAN SEE THAT GOD UNDERSTAND JONAHS HUMILIATION HERE, PEOPLE LIKE OLAADEGBU WOULD HAVE MOCK HIM MORE THAN ANYONE, BUT THE ISSUE HERE SHOULD BE 'OBEYING GOD RATHER THAN SATISFYING MEN' OKAY?

NO APOLOGY PLS, THE ENDTIME MUST COME TO BRING DESTRUCTION ON ALL THESE OPPRESSORS LIVING FAKE ENJOYMENTS AT THE EXPENCE OF THE POOR.

@oLAADEGBU

I asked this same question on the other thread would you care to answer it?

Do you agree that Jehovah will put all false prophets to shame?

definately yes, false prophecy that do not have its roots in the bible like trinity,purgatory and hell fire were put to shame infact only on nairaland alone,on the trinity tread,Olaadegbu and co withrew after one catholic 'ihedinobi' admitted that 'trinity was undefended in the bible' and that is a testimony to false teachings that do not exist from the bible championed catholics and their leaders.

by not bringing to pass their false prophecy?

The burden of who prophecy 'endtime' lies on jesus christ and not jehovahs witnesses, jesus warned his followers to 'keep watch' or alert and following that does not make jws responsible for jesus prophecy on endtime.
And remember that it is a futuristic event that must come to pass. how jesus prophecy on endtime became unfufilled on this tread is misleading.

Do you also agree that false prophets will try to hide their reason for feeling ashamed to conceal the reason for feeling shame by denying who they really are?

yes false prophet says that the reason why jesus could not remember the day and hour that the end would come is that he is limited by human form,while they believed that jesus is God incarnate, and that the fulness of God that dwell with him bodily could not have impact on his knowledge about knowing the day and hour that the end would come,and thats serious for them!

Let your magazine speak.

"Jehovah, the God of the true prophets, will put all false prophets to shame either by not fulfilling the false prediction of such self-assuming prophets or by having His own prophecies fulfilled in a way opposite to that predicted by the false prophets. False prophets will try to hide their reason for feeling shame by denying who they really are.”—
" — Paradise Restored to Mankind—By Theocracy!, 1972, pp. 353-354

yes many false trinity/purgatory/hellfire prophets that that are hurt by their being exposed do hide their feelings only to come here to mislead people to believe that jws prophecy endtime when it was jesus who did prophecy endtime warning with signs that would mark end time clealy written in the bible.

@OLAADEGBU,

here i come again on this thread, you absconded from the trinity tread isn'nt it? and your co surporter ubenedictus ihedinobi expecially has announced on the tread that 'trinity' is undefended in the bible, and thats how far they could go on the tread,

now,
To start with here,im not yet a jehovahs witnesses, but i have made a wide reseach into their activities for years,i found no other organisation now that can be compared with them, well thats my opinion,as far as im concerned,further reseaches are still in progress, and based on my convinction , i have allowed my wife and children to join, and willing to join myself as soon as possible when i resigned my present job,i have already set up my own company now and its doing well.

so back to business,

If the bolded above is the case what do you say about what your Society published in one of their earlier magazines that I quote below?

"So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? . . . He had a "prophet" to warn them. This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?" —The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, p. 197

http://4jehovah.org/images/stories/downloads/jehovahs_witness/prophecy/wt-4-1-1972-p197.pdf

Do you guys all speak with one voice at all or is it that you have changed your beliefs?

you have been asked a simple question here, and you should have given an answer to question that!which is 'what is a false prophet'? give 'your own defination' and not using a reference for the defination here is laughable, unless in your own words 'what is a false prophet'? waiting for your defination pls.thanks.

@Myjoe,

Im touching this part again because you have rejected buiding logical common grounds earlier,when we both agree on bringing issue on one-by one to be meaningfull,but you only copy part of a discussion built to a level and want me to buy it, below are part of your reply, just to remind you,

myjoe's response...;Yes. It would take more than merely thinking like everyone else.

Your earlier response above confirms that you are not interested in logical building of a topic for discussion despite my plea for a meaningfull discussion that can also benefit others, and that assertion was echoed lately where someone who is not even a jw's (ubenedictus) observe and said this below;

(ubenedictus)....It seem d aim of this thread is to find fault, after looking critically, i dont think it is a thread worth reading. If d op really wants to point out something he should take one topic for one thread.
Peace

im pointing this earlier process out so that when i start adressing the issue the way it merits your suited well ways here,it should'nt be a surprise.
now back to your earlier claim,

I am saying that your church is denying Christians, many of whom are very sincere, their God-given freedom to think and choose for themselves, even in matters the Bible is not clear on which ought to be left to the individual. This freedom can be determined from reason.

in adressing this issue above again from this particular direction that you choose;
we should have build up the foundation of:
what constitutes jws as an orgaisation,
their leadership..Annoited or not,members who are called brothers/sisters,
then their beliefs and those that seemed to be unclear to you must have been built up in discussion between myself and you,and that can also serve as a reference without complicating matters,even for onlookers here.
but since you refuse that, and you choose to deliberately enter into the heart of the discussion,then i will only assume that you only read about jws,but could not have the patient to examine their ways before you form a conclusion, so;

in using the words in quote ''I am saying that your church is denying Christians, many of whom are very sincere''
your words in quote above shows that you recognise the members of the jws as 'sincere christians' including who they agree to be their leaders,
so lets see what will not be an issue to be recognised here;
a,Maybe jws leaders are worthy to give directions to its members or not,or maybe they are sincere in your opinion or not,
b,any relating discussion or notions not build up relating to this topic will not be an issue after admitting that the members are sincere.
but the issue here 'is to the extent that' that you need clarification is on alledge denial of ''freedom to think and choose for themselves, even in matters the Bible is not clear on which ought to be left to the individual. This freedom can be determined from reason''.

now the answer you neede here is that,i want to say here that the main or body of instruction that jehovahs witneses is upholding on this issue is solely based on what is found in the book of acts verse 15:17-29, already discused above, and that the burden of who prepare such imformation that directs someone to 'hold one self off' from the use of blood alongside idolatory and sexually immorality or of which if person who is called 'brother' or a member of true christians is found guilty,that the christian association should quit mixing in company with the person as a discipline(1 cor 5:9-13),the burden or onus of the body of who mandates the or responsible for instituting the instruction lies on the 1st century christian leaders and apostles while the jws leaders only act as what can be understood in legal terms as only' vendor of the first part' only in maintaining that the tenets and instructions were duly followed as time changes.

even in matters the Bible is not clear on which ought to be left to the individual.

when you said ''matters the Bible is not clear on which ought to be left to the individual'' i lter saw what could have caused you not to see it clearly in clear terms, it because of what you said here;'This freedom can be determined from reason''.

i have helped you to see why determining Such matters only from your own reason and understanding is faulty in the next paragraph.
but again i have to brief the point again to show you that it was stated clearly;

paul still reiterates and give direction on judgement on anyone found guilty called a brother, they should “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

paul distinguish judging of brothers as neccesary from people who still live immoral lives as ''people of the world that need to get out of the world''
he wrote that the christian leadership only have their judging business only with those inside the christian associasion.

is that clear now, so you can see that jws christian org. only guides members to follow and not force anybody here because every member reads and understands this[b] before willingly accepting to follow what is written inside their own bible,of which myjoe is making it to look as if the members have a secret oath, but we can see now that what you term as depriving of God giving freedom is due to what you termed as 'to determine from reason'[/b] of which members agreed to follow the same rules that govern the first century christians.read again for clarity before you starts to say 'acts as free men' or your earlier bible verse that you quoted but could not sustain,this one below has encapsulate that and it has also given an extent to its vaidity,[/b]read;

1 corinthians 5 12-13
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

This freedom can be determined from reason''.

it is very wrong of you to determine Such matters only from your own reason and understanding,read below;
Proverbs 3:5-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And [b]lean not on your own understanding;

Besides, does Watchtower admit this or are decisions slyly presented as the individual's?

Watchtower is not in anyway guity of anything here other than your misconception which i have treated above,except if you can be honest to appologise,but i dont even think they will need your apology.

shebi God don write everything wey go happen now,according to muslims, so why worry?

@Ubenedictus,
SORRY,YOU HAVE TO USE YOUR LAPTOP, BECAUSE THIS MATTER DEMANDS MORE BB PNONE EHN, OKAY NOW!

i cant find the name Jesus in ur quote above.

VERY GOOD, LET ME PROVE IT NOW, USING (A1,A2 AND A3) BELOW;
NO DOUBT, BIBLE ALWAYS USE WISDOM TO REFER TO JESUS,OR WISDOM PERSONIFIED, AND ONE OF THE BIBLE THAT USE WISDOM TO REFER TO JESUS DIRECTLY IS HERE BELOW;
(A1)
1 Corinthians 1:24

24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
ALSO THE SAME BOOK OF PROVERBS THAT I QUOTED,CHAP.8, VERSE ONE BELOW SAID IT ALL;
(A2)(Proverbs 8:1;
Listen! Wisdom is calling out.
Reason is making herself heard.
HOW DO WE KNOW THAT 'WISDOM' AS USED HERE TRULY IS REFFERING TO JESUS CHRIST;VERSE 27-31 GAVE AN ACCOUNT THAT 'ONLY JESUS GAVE OF HIMSELF' AND NOBODY APART FROM JESUS CAN SAY THAT HE WAS WITH GOD WHILE ALL THIS BELOW TOOK PLACE;

[b](A3)[/b]27 I was there when he set the sky in place,
when he stretched the horizon across the ocean,
28 when he placed the clouds in the sky,
when he opened the springs of the ocean
29 and ordered the waters of the sea
to rise no further than he said.
I was there when he laid the earth's foundations.
30 I was beside him like an architect,[a]
I was his daily source of joy,
always happy in his presence—
31 happy with the world
and pleased with the human race.

CONCLUSION, I HAVE PROVED HOW (A1) CONNECTED TO (A2) AND (A3) ABOVE LOGICALLY.

And as for d bolded part, prov wasnt written by Jesus so it would be a silly thing to say that Jesus confirmed he was a creation in proverbs.

YOUR PROBLEM IS THE UNDERSTANDING OF SIMPLE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, CANT YOU SEE THAT ALL THE WORDS IN THAT PROV CHAP 8 WAS ''IN QUOTE'' WHAT DOES THAT TELLS YOU, THE WRITER'S? OH! COMMON,READ THEM AGAIN BELOW, IT WASN'NT AS IF THE WRITER WAS WRITING 'IN HIS OWN WORD' BUT WAS MAKING A QUOTE AND ALLUDING IT TO A CHARACTER.
SO,WISDOM IS ACTUALLY CONFIRMING THAT HE WAS CREATED BY HIS FATHER WHICH IS GOD ALMIGHTY.AND WHO IS WISDOM HERE, 1 COR 1:24 GAVE US THE ANSWER AS JESUS CHRIST.

And hey i cant even find d word 'creation' there.

WAIT NOW; SEE DIFFERENT BIBLE TRANSLATIONS BELOW, IM NOT THE ONE WHO WROTE THEM;
prov 8:22-23.
(New International Reader's Version)
22 "The Lord created me as the first of his works,
before his acts of long ago.
23 I was formed at the very beginning.
I was formed before the world began.

prov 8:22-23;
(Good News Translation)

22 The Lord created me first of all,
the first of his works, long ago.
23 I was made in the very beginning,
at the first, before the world began.

Prov 8:22
(KING JAMES VERSION)
The LORDH3068 possessedH7069 me in the beginningH7225 of his way,H1870 beforeH6924 his worksH4659 of old.

USING THE STRONG HEBREW DICTIONARY,BECAUSE BIBLE WAS ORIGINALY TRANSLATED FROM HEBREW/GREEK MANUSCRIPTS, SO LETS SEE WHAT 'POSSESSED 7069'AS USED BY (KJV)BIBLE REVEALED SEE BELOW(YOU CAN ALSO SEARCH ON YOUR OWN);

H7069

קנה

qânâh

kaw-naw'

A primitive root; [size=18pt]to {erect} that {is} create

[/size]

SO,JESUS ALSO KNOWN AS WISDOM WAS ACTUALLY CREATED BY GOD ALMIGHTY.

Ha! U have start twisting scriptures to suit urself beautiful nonsense

NO I DIDNT, ALL THIS BIBLE TRANSLATIONS ABOVE ARE NOT WRITTEN BY ME,THEY ARE THERE ON YOUR INTERNET TO VERIFY.

it would really be silly to ask me to provide a whole sentence in the bible, it is as though im asking u to provide a verse that say ''Jesus isnt God'', it is a silly thing to ask, you dont need a verse that say ''that knowledge wasnt available to his human mind'. All that is needed is a verse that shows that the finite human mind cannot grasp or fully contain the infinite divine knowledge and is55:89 and ps139:6 shows it.

EASY BROTHER, INSULT CANNOT HELP YOU HERE, AND IF I MAY REMIND YOU,READ THE TOPIC OF THIS TREAD AGAIN,THEN YOU WILL SEE 'PROVOCATIVE' THERE, AND THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE GOING THROUGH NOW,'YOU ARE PROVOKED ALREADY' BY CALLING NAMES LIKE SILLY FOR JUST TELLING YOU TO QUOTE A BIBLE VERSE THAT TELLS US THAT ''that knowledge wasnt available to jesus human mind,but you admit that the fullness of God rest on him bodily '', BUT THEN, IF THE FULNESS OF GOD REST ON CHRIST BODILY, THEN WHAT IS THE ESSENCE OF 'GODS FULNESS THAT REST ON HIM BODILY' WHEN HIS KNOWLEDGE IS NOT AFFECTED BY 'GODS FULLNESS'? IT STILL REMAINS ORDINARY, ABI.

THAT IS THE HOLE THAT PROVING TRINITY HAS PUT YOU PEOPLE,BUT INSTEAD OF YOU TO PROVE IT FROM THE BIBLE,IT IS VERY COMMON WITHYOU GUYS TO START INSULTING, BUT THEN I STILL INSIST THAT YOU SHOULD PROVIDE A BIBLE VERSES THAT 'ACTUALLY SPOKE ABOUT 'JESUS NOT UNABLE TO CONNECT WITH KNOWLEDGE THAT HE POSSESES BEFORE IN HEAVEN WHILE HE WAS STILL A HUMAN'.

Is 55:8,9 for my thoughts are not ur thoughts nor are my ways ur way says the lord. for as d heaven is higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways an ur thought than ur though

IM NOT DISPUTING THAT GODS WAYS OR THOUGHT ARE GREATER THAN HUMANS.

that show all i have been saying that the infinite mind transcends the finite human mind.

YES I AGREE, WHICH MEANS THAT SINCE JESUS WAS LIMITED BY ALL HUMANS INFIRMITIES,THEN HE WAS NOT GOD ALMIGHTY! SIMPLE.

Ps139:6 the psalmist proclaims that infinite divine knowledge is too wonderful for the human mind and d human mind cant attain it d psalmist says:
6such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is so high that i cannot attain it.

YES THAT SHOWS THAT GOD POSSESSED GREATER KNOWLEDGE AND ALSO CAUSES HIS SON JESUS TO HAVE GREATER KNOWLEDGE THAN HUMANS,EVEN ON EARTH,HE DISPLAYED IT.

That clearly shows my position that d infinite divine knowledge of christ couldnt be contained by a human mind d psalmist says it 'it is too wonderful' 'so high' 'cannot be attained'. Friend if u cant see that then u need specs.

THE PSALMIST WAS TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF BROTHER,IM SURPRISED THAT YOU CANT SEE THAT, IS HE JESUS?
PLS READ THE FIRST 6 VERSE OF WHERE YOU QUOTED TO PROVE 'HOW JESUS HUMANS MIND DESPITE FULLNESS RESTING ON HIM BODILY CANNOT REMEMBER WHAT HE USED TO KNOW AS GOD ALMIGHTY' READ NOW AND SEE THAT ITS NOT EVEN CONNECTED IN ANYWAYWHATSOEVER WITH JESUS;READ,

O Lord, You have searched me and known me.
2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
You understand my thought afar off.
3 You comprehend my [/b]path and [b]my lying down,
And are acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word on[b] my tongue,[/b]
But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether.
5 You have hedged me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge[b] is too wonderful for me;
It is high, I cannot attain it.[/b]

WAS HE SAYING THAT JESUS COULD NOT ATTAIN THE KNOWLEDGE OR 'HIM' THE PSALMIST COULD NOT ATTAIN IT?. WAS THE PARAGRAPH WRITTEN IN QUOTE? NOW WHO NEED GLASSES HERE?

actually it didnt come from me it came from the bible u can guess d verse that says 'd fulnes of d divinity rests on him'

BIBLE DID NOT,AND YOU ARE YET TO PROVIDE ONE,THE PSALMIST ABOVE NEVER HELPED YOUR CASE.NO CONNECTION AT ALL!!

hahaha where did u get this idea? As man christ was limited *he occupied space *had to obey gravity etc. Infact he was even born a subject to the law

THEN HE IS NOT GOD ALMIGHTY,BUT GODS SON.
AND I WILL COME BACK WITH WHAT IS MEANT IN COLL 2:9

TO CLEAR THE ISSUE,SINCE YOU CANT PROVE OTHERWISE WHY FULLNESS OF GOD REST ON CHRIST BODILY,AND THE FULNESS WAS NOT EFFECTIVE ON HIS KNOWLEDGE DESPITE BEING 'BODILY'

Colosians say that all the knowledge and wisdom are hidden in christ yet luke says Jesus grew in wisdom. To any one with a sharp mind it would seem the bible contradicted itself, 1st by saying all knowledge is hidden in christ and goes on to say that dsame person wu has all wisdom grew in wisdom

HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN YOUR EARLIER QUOTE BELOW;

UBENEDICTUS QUOTE 'His human nature served as a vessel hidding that infinite knowledge that resided in his divinity'.

FROM WISDOM HIDDEN IN CHRIST TO 'VESSEL HIDDING THAT INFINITE KNOWLEDGE' OKAY, WHILE THE HE IS STILL IN THAT VESSEL, YOU SAID HE IS GROWING IN WISDOM AGAIN STILL IN THE VESSEL? SO HOW IS HE TAPPING A HIDDEN WISDOM? CAN YOU SEE WHAT YOU HAVE CAUSED YOURSELF? IM JUST HERE LAUGHING OOO!

LETS GO NOW!

paul distinguished 'those that are outside' saying that the christians 'will need to get out of the world'(1 cor 5:10) which hereinafter means that 'a proffesed christian that is called a brother, is not in the same category in anywaywhatsover with those outside the christian faith whose judjement paul refers to God,but paul signify apportioning some measure of discipline to anyone who clearly violates what he wrote to the christians (1 cor 5:11).

the only thing that can make someone says that this is not clear to him can be traced to a 'distorted' understanding.

so after taking care of the burden of circumcision as the first issue in that meeting, what is termed 'These neccesarry things followed' which formed the second part of the conference that occurred in 49 C.E., in which the apostles and older men of Jerusalem who served as a central body of elders for all Christians held a discussion,so the 2nd issue;

2,And what are 'These neccesarry things' that followed; considering the greek word used in the new testament manuscripts,

ap-ekh'-om-ahee

to hold oneself {off}

emphasized the importance of drawing parallels with some issues among others here and the bible was clear on the matter;

29 that you abstain from[b] things offered to idols[/b], from blood, from things strangled, and from[b] sexual immorality[/b]. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

the same paul who you reffered to his writing that he was saying that one should act as 'free men' wrote aggain to the christian churches;
1 corinthians 5 9-13

9[b] I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.[/b] 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. [size=14pt]11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.[/size]

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. [size=14pt]Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[/size]

paul instructs,not admonition here clearly that when someone violates these clear rules, he/she must dis-associated,keep out of 'company' of brethren as clearly seen here,

now,where is the bible not very clear here? for goodness sake! and where is freedom surrendered here?

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. [size=14pt]Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[/size]

i earlier quoted rev 22:8 above, sorry it was prov,8:22;
Proverbs 8:22
New International Version (NIV)
22 “The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
where jesus confirmed that he is one of his fathers first creations.