₦airaland Forum

How can you or Matt Slick be taken seriously when you blatantly misrepresent catholic teaching.
The CC does not teach a works righteousness, get that right and repost.

ByfireByfire:
.
Ok. I don't mean to argue or fight but let's even agree that the first University was built in Cairo (if ever this was true), but this doesn't make us conclude that they invented the University idea. The idea could possibly be another nation's/individuals brain child while the arabs probably had the capital to implement it. I'm certain if this matter is deeply researched the truth will be evident.

Roman Catholics used to claim that they are the first church to ever exist and they wrote the Bible and everbody including myself believed it but when I carefully researched this from the Bible I clearly discovered Paul the Apostle visited pentecostal churches he established during his missionary journeys long before Catholic existed and in the book of revelations Christ sent warning messages to different pentecostal churches long before Catholic existed. Same for the Bible origin which existed with the old testament scripts and the new testament scripts and Paul's epistles long before Catholic ever existed.

Paul visited pentecostal churches.hahahaha!!!! Abeg, Do your research well bros

OLAADEGBU:
You meant to say that you became a Roman Catholic from the day you were baptised? To become a Christian is simply by faith in Jesus Christ.

You got it all twisted. Catholic - member of Jesus' Church thus a Christian. Simple

CaptainJune:
Not to argue or anything, but all you've just said leaves me without a doubt about the deception you wholeheartedly believe. Read the Bible afresh. Forget what the Catholic church or Pentecostal church or Methodist church or Presbyterian church preach. Forget them. They are nothing but walls of division. Read the Bible from an individual point of view. It will help you get rid of the deception you are under.

I beg to differ captain, one can't forget about the church. In fact we are pointed to the church a number of times in the bible.
Reading the bible from an [b]individual[/b]point of view is what has caused the walls of division not following Jesus' church.
Reading the bible is very good but has the be read within the context of christian history.
The church is the pillar and foundation of truth that is why it can canonise people.

OLAADEGBU:
Rather, you might become a Christian.

Already a christian bro, from the day I was baptised.

CaptainJune:
This is false doctrine. The canonization of a person does not guarantee their eternal habitation. It is just a man-made act of bestowing honour on that person. Only God knows those who made heaven and those who didn't just as well as the people to whom He reveals the eternal habitation of those who have departed this life.

Si down dere captain saying false doctrine! The church was given the power to bind and loose(Matt 18:18 & others).the same power was used to canonise the books of the bible(or is this false as well?),to declare God a Trinity, to declare the nature of Jesus,the list goes on including canonisation of persons.
When someone is canonised,the church is stating that the person definitely has beatific vision which means they are in heaven.
The Catholic Church's authority comes directly from Jesus and so its always been and will continue to be.

On earth, the only way we can know for sure whether one made heaven is when they have been declared as such by the catholic church in its authority to bind and loose.

Mother Theresa is one likely to have made heaven as she is currently in the process of being declared as such while a miracle through her intercession is sought/investigated.
The declaration process involves lengthy investigations into the person which could take decades/centuries.

@OP,you keep dabbling in Catholic matters. You'll soon become Catholic.

Syncan:
God is your strength. You've been missed.

Amen

SalC:
God will always be your strength

Amen.God will be your strength as well

Greetings, been a while. Heavily stressed lately at work, asking for your prayers. God bless.

It's right as Jesus established it that way.

sportsmaster:
you took that scripture out of Context,read the next few verses.
Peter was referring to the Source of the Prophecies,how the prophecy was given by the Spirit of God.

Private interpretation in that context means,None of the Prophecy was from any private source.

ok, Remember the book was originally written without chapters or verses. Carry on reading through the next 2 chapters to get a fuller context/conclusion.

Especially 2peter3:15》》 also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures>>>>

Scholar8200:
Let me add that after seeking the assistance of a leader etc, you still have the responsibility of personal study to confirm if the explanations are according to what is written. The following refs are notable:

Galatians 1:8,9

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

(The highlighted shows NO MAN is given the ability to add to, change, or deduct from what is written; not even the apostle that was inspired)


and

Isaiah 8:20
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.


Ultimately, we do well to cultivate a relationship with the Holy Spirit because:
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
1 Corinth 2:10

13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;
John 16:13a

you're looking at this through 21st Century eyes.what percentage of the population in early christianity(first 1000 years) was literate?
not saying people shouldnt study scriptures but you can't come up with any interpretation especially when a teaching is defined by the church.

socrateez:
One challenge I have noticed in all these contributions is the use of the word "doctrine". What is a doctrine? Many of the allusions in the contributions are dogmas not doctrine.

A doctrine is a clear teaching in the Bible which Christians have been instructed to follow. For a teaching to be a doctrine, it must be practicable in any circumstances in any part of the world. That will include (but not limited to):

i. Accept the free gift of salvation (some will refer to it as accepting Jesus Christ into your life)
ii. Partaking in the Holy Communion.
iii. Evangelism. etc

Dogmas on the other hand are practices or traditions of each denomination. They are not necessarily ungodly because many of them indicate acceptance and give identity to members. The problem is the elevation of dogmas over the teachings of the Bible.

Ironically, the definitive list of books of the bible is dogma as per council of Trent.

2peter1.20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.

OLAADEGBU:
This is what you quoted he said:

"The Big Bang, which is today posited as the origin of the world, does[b] not contradict the divine act of creation; rather, it requires it”,[/b] . Also, “evolution of nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation because evolution pre-supposes the creation of beings which evolve."

The Pope said the origin of the world requires the big bang and that evolution of nature pre-supposes the creation of beings which evolve.

The big bang is entirely fiction and it's a pity that your most holy father has been taken in by it not realising its atheistic underpinnings. All he has said there is an attempt to reinterpret the plain scripture so that it can mesh with secular beliefs about the origin of the universe.

The big bang was proposed by atheists in order to attempt to explain how the universe could have been created without God which is an alternative to what we have in the holy Scriptures.

The Bible teaches that God created the world in 6 days (Exodus 20:11). Alternatively, the big bang teaches that the world has evolved over billions of years. So, you can see that the big bang and the Bible definitely don't agree about the origin of the world as your Pope wrongly observed.

Please see bolded,these are his main points.if the big bang or evolution are true then they would have been created by GOD. They would require a creator!!!
where's your prove that the big bang is fiction?

The CC has no definitive teaching on the exact details or length of creation. Even the early Christians thought 1 day could refer to a long period of time.
Based on science,earth has been around for billions of years

OLAADEGBU:
In short the Pope is saying that the big bang is the answer to the origin of the world thus acquiescing to the theory of evolution that says there is no need of a God for the world's existence.

please be fair,he said the opposite of your warped conclusion. Please reread what I posted.

OLAADEGBU:
2. Infallibility of the Catholic Church CCC 2035,

"The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed."

Was the Pope stating an infallible truth when he said the universe was created by a big bang?

The pope was not declaring official church teaching to all the faithful therefore was not speaking infallibly. This is what he said: The Big Bang, which is today posited as the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine act of creation; rather, it requires it”, . Also, “evolution of nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation because evolution pre-supposes the creation of beings which evolve.”
This doesn't contradict CC teaching anyway so I don't understand your point. Science discovers things everyday,all he was stating is that all these require a creator, God.
If there is conclusive evidence of the big bang theory in the future,the church may decide to have an official teaching.In any case,it doesn't affect the faith.

claremont:
The interesting thing is that the so-called benefits that they say is being exploited by non-EU migrants is actually a mere propaganda to make people believe that immigrants are the source of their woes. The available research to date all suggests that non-EU migrants contribute more into the UK economy than they take out of it, and the greatest exploiters of the benefit system are actually British people and EU migrants. This policy serves to perpetuate the argument that the UK is cold and unwelcoming to non-white immigrants.

Unfortunately,non EU migrants will get the blame because they feel they are the different ones plus nothing can be done about the EU ones at the moment. It's interesting to note that we don't hear of American immigrants into UK being a problem. Perhaps,Nigeria just needs to get better then we won't have to become economic migrants to UK.

Kamsified:
Psalm 118:24

"This is the day that The Lord has made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."


Good morning brethren and have a blessed week

It certainly is another day to rejoice. Have a blessed week as well.

Barnabaseloka:
I know that I have not proven a point to you b/c I explained everything I said from the scriptures, instead of following what any church has said without asking questions when I see contradictions from the scriptures. The posts written by people here tend toward argument in order to prove their points, including yours. Do you want me to just swallow everything taught in any particular church as truth? Why did the Bereans not do so when Paul (a great apostle) taught them in Acts 17:11? Why did Paul tell Timothy (and all believers in Christ) to study the scriptures in order to rightly divide (teach) it in 2 Tim.2:15? Should we just believe any teaching from any church b/c the church has said so? What if such teachings contradict the scriptures?

Following your point on the Bereans, how come the Tessalonians did not agree with Paul’s teaching after going through the same scriptures in the preceding verses Acts 17:1-10 but tried to put Paul into trouble?? Also,New Testament books were not completed at this point, so the Bereans were looking through the Old Testament. I wonder why the majority of Jews never accepted Jesus as Messiah after all they’ve been reading the Torah for Centuries.

Barnabaseloka:
Remember that the believers spread to other parts of the world. Anywhere they gathered to worship God constituted a church as it was in Jerusalem. The church or body of Christ at Jerusalem is not the only church/body of Christ. So stop viewing the word 'church' as a gathering of distinct or particular set of early believrs.

The scriptures you have and the Holy Spirit help you know the truth, not just going to a particular church. This was why I ask the question of how one has personally studied the scriptures you have with you. Or are you waiting for any particular church to tell you everything- when to do this and when not to do that, when to move and when to stop moving, etc. If you wait for any church (maybe through pastors, bishops, pope, etc.) to direct your christian life in everything you do, when the scriptures are with you, alongside the Holy Spirit,, I wonder how such christian life will look like.

Fact:the early church was one church guided by the apostles and the structure carried on after their death. It is convenient to state centuries later that this wasn't the case but history disproves this.
Yes christianity spread, more of a reason why structure was required through the bishops who met regularly.
Due to several groups thinking they knew the truth by themselves,we had heresies like the arian,Nestorian etc.The church had to clearly state the true teaching which also includes the communion of saints.

I've tried to state how your view of everyone interpreting scriptures without guidance does not work as you don't accept the communion of saints teaching even though the church taught this way back in the Nicene Creed. I doubt the holy spirit is the cause of all the differences.

I study the scriptures but divorcing this act from it's historical context leads to confusion.
The fact that we relied on the church to compile the scriptures for us,the fact that it's the pillar and foundation of truth implies we have recourse to it has the guide.Matt 18 talks about ultimately taking disputes to the church.
The church was always established as one, the fact that Paul wrote to a number of them asking them to adhere to the teachings by word or letter says as much.

Barnabaseloka:
I did not answer you according to how you wanted it. I have written on how the truth is detremined today by christians, and did not tow the path you had in mind.

Every church that existed after the one at Jerusalem was independent, yet worked hand in hand with the church at Jerusalem and with its fellow 'sister' churches. The church at Jerusalem, as at then, acted as guide and handled critical matters that could not be resolved among christians. These problems came from the Jews, demanding the christian gentiles to be circumscised. These crucial matters needed to be settled in jerusalem when they got out of hand b/c:
1. The scriptures had not been put together into one book.
2. The leaders in Jerusalem constituted those who had followed Jesus and got first hand information from Jesus Himself.
3. That was where christianity started before spreading to other places.

Now, matters are settled in christianity by the scriptures that have been put together and the Holy Spirit. The truths concerning christian beliefs are not decided by any particular church/ body of Christ. Any church/body of Christ or any christian must use the scriptures to teach the truths about christian beliefs and faith. No church has absolute authority in that the truths must be determined by it.

the scriptures were not put together as one book for almost 400 years after the event. You'll find that nowhere does it say that matters are settled only by scriptures. Jesus left a teaching church to be helped by the Holy Spirit.there were other matters that came up that had to be addressed in a similar manner to Acts 15(please check out the church councils).matters are addressed in a similar way in our day.
to reiterate, leaving every gathering to decide for themselves what is true has led to countless contradictory doctrines. So this approach cannot be correct.

Barnabaseloka:
Bro. I know the angle you have come from. I always make it clear that whatever one teaches you as regards christian beliefs and faith should be scriptural, whether from any church or from bible study groups. This is why I wrote that personal study of the scriptures is a key tool in a christian's life.

The church in 1 Tim. Is not talking about any particular church and does not mean building as well. Any group of christians who gathers together to worship God in truth and in spirit constitutes a CHURCH, no matter where they are. As one goes to church, one learns the truth, when others speak or teach from the scriptures and iron sharpens iron.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth and teaches us, using other christians, the truth in the scriptures when we come together as a body/church. This is why it was written: forsake not the assembly of brethren. Your guides are the Holy Spirit and the word of God. The church/body of Christ and any true christian who has some level of spiritual maturity help you to understand, the truth in the scriptures, when one is confused.

The truth you have got in the church or body of Christ and from your personal study will help you teach others the truth in the scriptures.

At the point the scriptures were written, although there were several gatherings in the name of Christ,they constituted one church led by the apostles. Peter and Paul wrote to a number of them.
The true church was clear in the early days.This is why teachings were checked with this church e.g. Acts 15,Gal 2. Are we saying the structure left by Jesus is no more? Did he really set up Christianity with differing teachings all over?
Over the years with different groups breaking off the church, it could be easy to interpret that every church has the full truth.
The[b] issue arises when I ask these several groups what the correct teaching is on communion of saints/intercessory prayers as per OP.how do I know the true teaching?[/b]

luckyCO:
This is exactly what you where told dear,please check the history yourself and you will see what happened. Read both catholic and protestant side of the story you discover how devil entered the church and when it entered.

I used to make these claims as ;
Catholic is first church funded by Christ
Pope is president of a country and of the biggest church in the world etc.
But when I checked I discovered God in His simplicity and I throw them away because they dont have salvation virtue. I should be ashamed that a church having Over 1.2billion members couldn't change the world spiritually positive.
That means God doesn't work with crowd.

If you are satisfied with the way catholic church and other churches are today, then I will advice you to review what makes you comfortable.
Meanwhile Christ will not judge us by roman catholic, anglican, methodist nor pentecostal doctrine/dogma/creed, He will judge us as it is written.


We have inner witness (the Spirit of truth) so if you say what is true and I have Spirit of truth I should be able to identify it and follow it, that is why we dont framework ourselves when it has to do with salvation.

God bless you.

@bolded may be verging on being heretical because Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.
I don't know what particular history you're referring to but there's always been issues in the church, even back to biblical times,that's what happens when you have human beings running things . Prior to the so called protestant reformation, there were issues of excesses within certain parishes. It's the excesses and sins that should have been reformed not breaking away from the church with novel doctrines.
it's a shame you don't see any good with the CC,I pray someday you see this.
by the way what church do you now attend?

I won't play the spirit of truth tennis with you, I think you'll soon review this once you see the level of confusing doctrines around.
God bless you too.

Barnabaseloka:
Correct interpretation of the scripture is got when a balance is struck among different passages that talk about a particular issue. All this is done by the help of the Holy Spirit.

Take a look at these:
1. How consistent are you in studying the scriptures, even after going to church?
2. Your personal study gives you a strong foundation and also gives you knowledge (insight) and understanding, making you to rapidly grow spiritually.
3. Personal study helps you to compare scriptures with scriptures in order to strike a balance among them.
4. When you get confused while studying, go to a christian who you know has attained some level of maturity spiritually. One who can rightly divide or teach the word of God, balancing scriptures.
5. Or, join a christian bible study group. A group that will enlighten you on the word of God, not one that causes more confusion or contradicts God's word.
6. Your sincerity to know the truth and live by it show how God will lead you to the truth.

In conclusion, your personal foundation, got during your personal study of the scriptures under the Holy Spirit, is a key tool to avoid being deceived by any spiritual 'teacher' or 'preacher'.

With all due respect, we end up at the same point going by your response.this is what has led to countless contradictory doctrines in protestant/pentecostal denominations.
With your logic,you end believing the tradition of the bible group/matured christian you meet with or whatever you feel personally.
There are differences on the big issues e.g. Trinity, holy eucharist(Jesus really present or not), baptism, communion of saints,books of the OT, nature of Jesus, justification, contraception, apostolic succession etc.
This is why a guide is needed, that's how it's always been.
within the scriptures you read that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth in 1Tim3.
Whilst I study scriptures, it has to be understood within christian history. The church with it's authority to bind and loose(plus Jesus promising the gates of hell not to prevail against it) has already laid out the true teachings and continues to interpret based on current and future events.
It is counterintuitive to state that each person studying the scriptures under the guidance of the holy spirit will know the truth because it's exactly the opposite that has occurred with sola scriptura adherence.

The

Scripture is not only about the words in it , but also about the right interpretation of the words. Come out from your doctrinal bigotry and accept the truth.

[/quote]How do we know the correct interpretation?(And please not the knowing the true spirit argument you guys always come up with - because it's a non sequitur)Who do we go to if there's a dispute on scripture interpretation?

luckyCO:
Christ did not establish any church(organization), he established The Way of life. People called that way of Life Christians, Catholics(Universal Spiritual Body of Christ-Mystic Body), Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Pentecostal etc.

You are a member of Christ body if you have been justified,sanctified by the blood and you have received the Holy Ghost.
It doesn't matter which church name you attend, you will soon know the truth as practiced by Apostolic fathers and prophets because you have received the Spirit of truth and you will soon start rejecting anything not in line teachings of Christ until you have become like Christ, Eph. 3:17, 4:13.

If you are a believer and you see one on your way, the spirit in you bears witness that you are of same family and that is the Church Christ established.

The religious argument we made here is because we dont have same spirit or not matured enough, if we have received the spirit of truth the same thing the member of RCC(Who have received the Spirit of Truth) believe will also be what the Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, pentecostal believe because they are of same Spirit and they are not under church title they belong but have sold their life to God and you see they will soon be under persecution by those Churches the belong if the head/ministers of the Church have not received same Spirit of truth which they have received.

It is God's reserved right to give the Holy Ghost and that makes you a member of Christ's Church (Body) then you will start bearing fruits of Holy Ghost.
Thanks

You'll find that you're well mistaken on no church being established,early christianity was one church. The denominations you listed only started after the protestant revolution of the 16th century, pentecostal even much later.
Your other points hold no water and directly conflict with the way christianity has been practiced.Please read through Acts 15 to see what happened when there was a teaching that had to be clarified.Everyone went back to the church(in effect the first council) to get the issue clarified. This practice carried on over the centuries to confirm the books of the bible, the communion of saints (intercessory prayers like this the OP),etc

All the denominations you mentioned teach different doctrines,how do we know what is true?
Your point of view about personally knowing the true spirit.... stems from Martin Luther,Calvin and Zwingli theories in the 16th century.

Good morning all, God bless you abundantly.

luckyCO:
Sir you are mixing two Mary here.
One is Mary mother of Christ
Another is Mary Magdalene.

Correct it such that your point can be clear.

'Vatican 0 (Apostolic time)' to refer to a time when Roman State Law has not mixed with Christianity.
It was after then we have Vatican 1,2 and 3 is ready now.

Oh, so Roman state law brought in the Marian prayers into christianity?!! Please let us know where the Christian church established by Jesus is today.

menesheh:
Bolded, Next time replace that word with science science


Why would the hand of BAAL OR ALLAH be in a process capable of self replication with pretty much errors. Catholic failed to demonstrate how and why the contradicting propositions of god molding man and man evolving from a slow, from bacteria beginning to upmost complexity of different species of animals.

I didn't mention contraception, abortion; knowing fully well that there are certain things they are against. But my concern was their reasons for accepting some and rejecting others knowing apparently that all of them are against their tenet.

I don't want to derail this thread but to address your assertion re bolded,it's only fundamentalists who teach a literal 6 24hour day creation.there has been no pronouncement from the CC on the exact process of creation.a day in God's term could be any period of time. Day was just a simple way to explain things to the simple minds. Catholics are free to believe what they see from their evidence until a definitive pronouncement is made by the CC.
Also re your concluding concern, the CC only teaches what is true, never what is against it's tenet. The OP refers to one disillusioned priest.