₦airaland Forum

Gruni1234:
Here lies another problem, Jehovah Witnesses are also Christians, yet you are against a truine God, Trinitarians fighting among themselves etc doesn't matter, all matters is what the bible says and if presented well enough then you accept what it teaches. With a clear mind and an educated one Hebrews was so clear to point out that Jesus was and is not an angel. I'm not unwise to know what that means. If there's nothing clear on whether Jesus was the Angel that answers the name Yahweh or not that's not an issue to me dear friend. Besides that is in the Torah and who best can we learn the Torah from except the Jews themselves. Who did they believe this angel was? Was it the Messiah to come? Or not.

I know you will try to evade, like you said that you are following the Bible, so since an angel is called God, even Yahweh , Why are you lots shouting about Thomas calling Jesus My God Can u see you are making a lost case . since angels are called Yahweh , the Triune God is False , why not add this Angels to the league of persons in a God ?

Hebrews said Jesus has been made better than angels . self explanatory . that context explains that Chapter.

CAPTIVATOR:
Bro , I said Gruni1234 is a pretender and underground trinitarian on this thread , an objective researcher would have asked questions as Tatime said to uncover areas which might not have been evident to an average reader , Bro many trinitarians believe that there is an Angel In the old testament whose identity is Jesus . If you have the time check this trinitarian website , and you too Gruni1234, https://crossexamined.org/who-is-the-angel-of-the-lord/
it says in part it becomes evident that the angel of the Lord is none other than the pre-incarnate Christ Himself

Gruni1234:
First of my dear Friend, if I'm a Trinitarian or Unitarian doesnt really matter to me if I become a Christian. What matters to me is I follow the precept of the bible and the bible alone. If the bible tells me My God is a truine God so be it. If it doesnt so be it. I dont need anyone,group or organization to tell me how to know God.I have a brain to think and I've gone to school enough to understand English, what,how and when the bible means.

Your fellows are doing a poor job defending their beliefs , they say one and then change it to mean another. I am a witness to this, I can read and write and know logic. So what you say doesn't really matter to me. I see the way zodiakzax deals with you in verbal assault which I'm against but it seems it could just be The right means to explore given how you just attacked me.

Now get this right as your other colleague got it wrong.I want you to know most atheist do not believe the bible is fabricated, we only don't believe there's a God. Christians turn to Scholars, Atheist scholars who are very educated in the Greek language for council, they help in the Greek text and language as to what it means or not. These scholars mostly accept John 1:1 as the word being divine, and as divine means God. Your assertion that it's "a god" clearly misrepresent the verse. Many Atheist greek scholars accept it to be God not "a god" does that make them a believer that God exists? Get your facts right Young Sir.

Barristter07:
Am happy you are getting frustrated as your various lies are getting nailed. Continue to pour your frustrations through insult. It changes nothing

Malachi 3:1 Darby says Angel

Malachi 3:1 NWT says Messenger.

Any difference ? No, both are same judging from the root word


Your sense want them to use same wording when they didn't at Malachi 3:1 , the point is NWT translation of John 1:1 is not wrong. As evidenced by Darby doing same at Act 8:26

Until you prove that Darby is wrong at Act 28:6 , then NWT is right.




Michael is an ARCH angel

Fellow, has frustration carried you to this extent ?

Bro , I said Gruni1234 is a pretender and underground trinitarian on this thread , an objective researcher would have asked questions as Tatime said to uncover areas which might not have been evident to an average reader , Bro many trinitarians believe that there is an Angel In the old testament whose identity is Jesus . If you have the time check this trinitarian website , and you too Gruni1234, https://crossexamined.org/who-is-the-angel-of-the-lord/
it says in part it becomes evident that the angel of the Lord is none other than the pre-incarnate Christ Himself

Gruni1234:
I'm really shocked how simple truth is denied. I will address all relevant points soon. So many twists and turns. What's bothering me is why protect an organization when clearly has some flaws in their doctrine. Are you being paid for being there? The Jehovah witnesses here have totally disappointed me and has open my eyes to see their own deception. Just to say nothing anyone says will change the truth. I can from my own reading know and ascertain that Jesus Christ is not an angel. This is just the case. I will take all points all have made and write my final thoughts on all matters discussed so far.


@brocab, advice well received, i am not there yet but in time if he is really real then it shouldn't be a problem for him. Thank you.

zodiakzax:
My friend are you conversant with the Doctrine of trinity? IF you do you will know Jesus After the resurrection is still man and God. That's why the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

Gruni1234:
Barrister Sir, I think you need to do a little study on what the trinity is and the truine God as believed by zodiakzax and the mainstream Christians.

One with God, means being part of the Godhead He the Holy Spirit is God.


One with the Father

The Father here is part of the trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and these three are ONE

One in what? Nature and essence. I believe is their point including zodiakzax

So if these three are ONE in nature and essence then the Holy Spirit is One with the Son and one with the Father.


So He is absolutely right to say The Holy Spirit is One with the Father.

If he said "same as the Father" then that's where the problem willl be. I think he explained this already. So can you leave this analyses to a third party? I will present your case and his and from analyses see whose is valid or not.

look at this undercover trinitarian ooooo so what did he say ? Same as who ? Lolzzzzzzzz

Gruni1234:
Barrister Sir, I think you need to do a little study on what the trinity is and the truine God as believed by zodiakzax and the mainstream Christians.

One with God, means being part of the Godhead He the Holy Spirit is God.


One with the Father

The Father here is part of the trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and these three are ONE

One in what? Nature and essence. I believe is their point including zodiakzax

So if these three are ONE in nature and essence then the Holy Spirit is One with the Son and one with the Father.


So He is absolutely right to say The Holy Spirit is One with the Father.

If he said "same as the Father" then that's where the problem willl be. I think he explained this already. So can you leave this analyses to a third party? I will present your case and his and from analyses see whose is valid or not.

so what did he say ? Same as who ? Lolzzzzzzzz

Gruni1234:
Things are getting interesting. Like i said before Barristter is struggling, please make sure to answer all questions addressed to You, I know how zodiakzax feels. Barristter also my advice is be on point and as learned person stay on a verse which explains itself. Good example zodiakzax used was the offspring of David thing, I'm to assume then that the bible contradicts itself? Well if it does then the bible itself is fake and not worthy of my time. I'm learning interesting things, but as a learned person I will do more research into that since zodiakzax didn't specifically say it does.

Barrister07, from the beginning of your debate with zodiakzax you held a very strong point that Jesus was a son of god just like angels are sons of God. You were asked repeatedly whether Jesus was the Begotten son of God, you were never specific in your answering. Now that you accept Jesus is the Begotten Son of God, then indeed Jesus cannot be an angel since the Book of Hebrews says NO ANGEL was begotten of God. It is quite clear that that doctrine is false and must be removed.


Surely born is not the same as create. Born is bring forth out of pre-existing substance whereas create is to bring forth out of nothing.

Your mother gave birth(born) to you. She did not create you. To say she created you is nonsense since that's not the case.


I am currently reading more about the doctrine of the Jehovah witnesses on who Jesus Christ is/was. I will post my find when I'm done. And like I said I will not be biased. I have started John 1:1 and it's getting interesting already.

Thank you.

OneJ:
Born, definition
*Past participle of bear.
1a. brought into life by birth.
1b. brought into existence, CREATED. >a new nation was BORN with the revolution.

Gruni ,zodiakzax, brocab, Johnw47,, who is the father and mother of the " new nation born with the revolution?"

The word "born" has dual meaning, that is, birth or created.
INDISPUTABLE FACT.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/born

"Before the mountains were born,
or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God"
Psalms 90:2.

These questions dey hang for una head:

1) How did Yahweh born the mountains?

2) How did Yahweh brought forth the earth and the world?

3)How did Yahweh brought forth Jesus Christ, his son?

These questions have ONLY one answer:
Yahweh CREATED
1)the mountains.
(2) earth and the world.
(3) Jesus Christ his son.

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/make_1
Make , definition
1.create/ produce
2. cause to be formed

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/make

1. to cause to exist or happen, CREATE
2.to bring into existence
Verb , make
3.make=create
synonyms> beget , bring forth, generate.

Jesus did not exist until Yahweh brought him into existence ( created, made, generated, brought forth) his begotten son.
The bitter truth is crystal clear.
Remain with your mumu or press exit mode, the choice is yours.
Shalom

zodiakzax:

[s]
Another stupid one.... Go and laugh at your friend who quoted this verse, and also laugh at the writer who said Born instead of create... ... why is he not able to boldly tell me that Jesus is the Begotten son of God... stupid jokers.... scared little "girls"

People are reading, of course you will never admit anything, but you see on writing for OTHERS TO SEE [/s] ..

zodiakzax:

[s]
Another stupid one.... Go and laugh at your friend who quoted this verse, and also laugh at the writer who said Born instead of create... ... why is he not able to boldly tell me that Jesus is the Begotten son of God... stupid jokers.... scared little "girls"

People are reading, of course you will never admit anything, but you see on writing for OTHERS TO SEE..

zodiakzax:
So here we go...

You said:


"You didn't answer , Yes he came as human being but a Nature SIMILAR to Adams CHILDREN. ( so that renders your garden of eden analysis Zero )"

My friend stop this stupidity, where did I say he came as Adams children? This is your assumption...This is the verse in question:

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
Philippians 2:6‭-‬7 NIV


He came as a human, a human being,.human likeness.. and I pointed out to you that He came a perfect being, with no sin, like those perfect beings God made in the garden.

why are you quoting Hebrews? Was the writer in Hebrews comparing the nature of God and Man? The Hebrews you are citing is in different context and not relevant to this....

That's what you do always taking out of context.


You continued:


"Liar , Spirit of man isn't the same as Him"


You see how dumb you are, i was only giving you an example to show you it was God I was referring to.

I said, "if I say the Spirit of man is the same as Him what do I mean?"

It means the Spirit of man is the same as Man.. You see how stupid you are? An example...

Aside that, in truth, just to correct you, the Spirit of man is man. You can ask if you want....


You said

"Back to the topic @ highlighted .. Who is that God . identify
And that's God the Father ... Comprehende ?"

You are forcing me to say something that isn't there..No that's not God the Father, that is you assuming it's God the Father, .. Paul said "no one knows the Thoughts of God except the Spirit of God" Paul did not say "no one knows the Thoughts of the Father except the Spirit of the Father" how dumb are you bruv? The Holy Spirit is God correct? The Father is God correct? So the Spirit Knows the Thoughts of the Father and Father knows the Thoughts of the Spirit correct? And both are God.


You continued to prove how dumb you are, you said

"I now know you have no single idea what u dived into."

well we will see wont we?

You said:

"Jesus is regarded as Gods first BORN .meaning he was Born."


show me where Jesus is regarded as God's firstborn?

Your stupidity continues:

You said

"When God born , that which. He born is a creation"

and you quoted

"Psalm 90:2 says God BORN the Mountains , it simply means God Create them. Unless your reasoning faculty is faulty. 

That's why Jesus is said to be born, Created."


... How did you know God borning the mountains means He created them? I did not see create there but born.. So how did you know it means creation?


So my turn to ask you a question

Were you born by your mother or were created by Her? Assuming the word create and born are the same..


My reasoning faculty is working perfectly well.. ...


Now barrister07 I respect you enough to answer every question of yours,even the stupid ones, why dont you give me that same respect to answer mine? If I were to behave like you,i dont think we would continue this thread...

I asked you if you believed that Jesus Christ is the Begotten Son of God, you have not answered that, nor even addressed it. I don't think we can continue having a discussion if you don't answer that.

Kikikikikiki How are mountains Born oooooo . Plenty film on this thread

2) if you don't have sense ,he quote Hebrew to let you know that nature is patterned after that of the Children

zodiakzax:
.... You can't answer if Jesus was begotten or not but has the mouth to answer for someone...


Yes Mary, how did she become pregnant without a man that should answer him...fool....

zodiakzax:
don't worry I will respond....let me get some free time... and let's see if you will cc me again

no free time, yet you keep replying my posts . issokay bone too hard ?

zodiakzax:
Kindly show me where I said Jesus is Lord and Master over His God? This was said about Jesus when he resurrected, God the Father Aknowledges Jesus to be Yahweh, Lord of heaven and Earth.... challenge me on that... and let's continue my friend.. we can start our thread....

zodiakzax:
Why are you arguing base on assumption bruv, come out with scriptures to prove it.


Yahweh AKNOWLEDGES THAT JESUS IS LORD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH...I challenge you to prove me wrong...

You are becoming stupid

zodiakzax:
And you have stupidly ignored my statements, are the Corithians the same as Philipians? When Paul was writing the letter? Open your eyes and address my points one after the other.. let's see how wise you are..

zodiakzax:
You are the dumbest of all, you argue here and there and when confronted you run away and poke your nose somewhere i said let OneJ respond to me So we continue... , if you are bold challenge me and let's keep to what you have to say...

zodiakzax:
.... You said i should give a verse where Peter and John AND THE OTHER APOSTSLES SAID SO.... gruni1234 you see how stupid they are?

I gave the verse where Thomas being part of the other apostles called Jesus My Lord. And I said since he did then I'm sure the rest did, I'm okay with just one saying it... You on the other hand show me just one place Jesus called the Father My Lord and I will accept. I threw the challenge to You and you round around chasing your tails

brocab:
If you knew God you would know zodiakzax is not lying, but sadly you don't God-this is why you find it hard to understand the Word of God!

Barristter07:
Tagged E1.

The above highlighted begs for answer . Gruni1234 , Captivator , OneJ . taking " Sum. " into consideration

am so enjoying this

Did he answer , let's see



This doesn't answer the. Question. Question tagged E1# for reference.



It said the same nature as THE CHILDREN .

Please answer that and stop somersaulting



You have forgotten , go back and answer that question .

Are the children Nature , which Jesus partook of perfect or imperfect ?



But you said:

"
Now get this The Holy Spirit Hasn't been fully sent to the world yet, He was with the Father and as such one with the Father. The Spirit of God is [b] the same as Him
" - Zodiazsax

One with Father. same as Him. Guess you were sleeping. When you typed that. Who does Him represent ? #E2






Total nonsense.

How was Jesus begotten ? Tell us

Colossians 1:15 said he is first BORN of all creation.. Hey. How was he born . so so simple .

. Tell me born doesn't mean create and you will receive the shock of your life

zodiakzax:
Okay gruni123 I will be polite....

Okay, Mr oneJ, let me take it one after the other so.we can have a lively chat...


Let's look closely at the word generate and create

The word "begotten" in the passage comes from a Greek word from which we get our English word "generate". To "generate", in the context of how the word is used here, means to "bring forth" out of pre-existing substance, whereas "to create", properly, means to "bring forth" out of nothing. Just as sunlight is generated (begotten) from the Sun but is not created by the Sun,


So to generate means to bring forth out of pre-existing substance

So without both your parents you OneJ couldn't be generated not created. You need to come out from a pre existing substance. So you were begotten of your parents not God.



We can continue.....

zodiakzax:
I will try as much as possible not to insult you for my readers sake..


So here was what happened guys: barristter07 in defending his claim that Jesus called the Father MY LORD:


1. lied that David didn't call Jesus my Lord but Lord, I proved to him that David called Him My Lord... .. He didn't respond to that..

2.said Sarah called Abraham Lord and Peter referred to this so Abrham is Sarah's Lord, I also proved to him with scriptures that Sarah called Abraham My Lord.

Now he asked me to Provide where Jesus is addressed as Lord of heaven and earth oga?"

I did and quoted the verse

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:10‭-‬11 KJV 

Jesus is to be Aknowledge by ALL as the Lord of Heaven and earth and under the Earth including The Father.



What did he do? He went to Corithians, different letter, different sect of people, the apostle was addressing to defend his claim..

Here was what he said


"The. One who gave that instruction and subject all things to him is Excluded . 1 Cor 15:47"


So my question is why didn't the Apsotle Paul who wrote the letters to different people, state that in philipians when He said ALL WERE TO BOW IN HEAVEN AND ALL WERE TO CONFEES THAT JESUS IS LORD, that the Father wasn't included. When talking about authority he to the Corithians said the Father wasn't subject to him. He was clear on that but in addressing the Philipians why didn't he say All except God the Father since he was addressing different people? I made it clear that the Apostle could not have said that because this particular statement which he made was from Yahweh Himself when He said :

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Romans 14:11 KJV

Yahweh is saying every knee shall bow to HIM, PAUL uses this to tell us that Yahweh here is Christ, and every tongue shall confess to God. Now why did Paul not use the Lord in place of God? He could have said:

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to me"

But instead "to me" to imply the Lord, He said "to God". So why the play of words?

Now when we carefully examine Phil 2:10-11, Paul said the same, He said Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Yahweh (Lord) to the glory of God The Father. So here again we See Yahweh and God as compared to his statement in Romans 14:11.


Now you repeated a question I answered and threw a challenge at You

You said:

"And the one sent at Isaiah 48:16 called another Lord. Showing the one sent is not Yahweh."


From our previous chats:


You said: 


"Isaiah 48:16 , you said the one sent is Yahweh , and the speaker is Yahweh . 

unfortunately, the one sent is calling Yahweh Lord ( Sign of subjection ) . showing clearly, the one sent is not Yahweh . Yahweh is the most high and would never call anyone Lord , its a sign of subjection ."


I acknowledged that Yahweh cannot call another Lord because He is the Only True God and Lord and beside Him there's no other God . Do you agree to this?

Now you were basing your claim on what I Said,

So I asked you Who the Speaker in Isaiah 48:16 was? Yahweh or Isaiah?

So my challenge to You was

"If you agree with me that the Speaker in Isaiah 48:16 is Yahweh then I will gladly answer you."

You never answered but continued to argue on this, I'm trying to be polite





....

zodiakzax:
wait for it.... then we will see who can't prove shishi.... don't know what tern that is but

zodiakzax:
I will try as much as possible not to insult you for my readers sake..


So here was what happened guys: barristter07 in defending his claim that Jesus called the Father MY LORD:

1. lied that David didn't call Jesus my Lord but Lord, I proved to him that David called Him My Lord... .. He didn't respond to that..

2.said Sarah called Abraham Lord and Peter referred to this so Abrham is Sarah's Lord, I also proved to him with scriptures that Sarah called Abraham My Lord.

Now he asked me to Provide where Jesus is addressed as Lord of heaven and earth oga?"

I did and quoted the verse

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:10‭-‬11 KJV 

Jesus is to be Aknowledge by ALL as the Lord of Heaven and earth and under the Earth including The Father.



What did he do? He went to Corithians, different letter, different sect of people, the apostle was addressing to defend his claim..

Here was what he said


"The. One who gave that instruction and subject all things to him is Excluded . 1 Cor 15:47"


So my question is why didn't the Apsotle Paul who wrote the letters to different people, state that in philipians when He said ALL WERE TO BOW IN HEAVEN AND ALL WERE TO CONFEES THAT JESUS IS LORD, that the Father wasn't included. When talking about authority he to the Corithians said the Father wasn't subject to him. He was clear on that but in addressing the Philipians why didn't he say All except God the Father since he was addressing different people? I made it clear that the Apostle could not have said that because this particular statement which he made was from Yahweh Himself when He said :

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Romans 14:11 KJV

Yahweh is saying every knee shall bow to HIM, PAUL uses this to tell us that Yahweh here is Christ, and every tongue shall confess to God. Now why did Paul not use the Lord in place of God? He could have said:

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to me"

But instead "to me" to imply the Lord, He said "to God". So why the play of words?

Now when we carefully examine Phil 2:10-11, Paul said the same, He said Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Yahweh (Lord) to the glory of God The Father. So here again we See Yahweh and God as compared to his statement in Romans 14:11.


Now you repeated a question I answered and threw a challenge at You

You said:

"And the one sent at Isaiah 48:16 called another Lord. Showing the one sent is not Yahweh."


From our previous chats:


You said: 


"Isaiah 48:16 , you said the one sent is Yahweh , and the speaker is Yahweh . 

unfortunately, the one sent is calling Yahweh Lord ( Sign of subjection ) . showing clearly, the one sent is not Yahweh . Yahweh is the most high and would never call anyone Lord , its a sign of subjection ."


I acknowledged that Yahweh cannot call another Lord because He is the Only True God and Lord and beside Him there's no other God . Do you agree to this?

Now you were basing your claim on what I Said,

So I asked you Who the Speaker in Isaiah 48:16 was? Yahweh or Isaiah?

So my challenge to You was

"If you agree with me that the Speaker in Isaiah 48:16 is Yahweh then I will gladly answer you."

You never answered but continued to argue on this, I'm trying to be polite





....

Barristter07:
if am to play along with your Counterfeit gimmicks , Psalm 8:9 David calls Yahweh OUR Lord . meaning mine and others , If those ones can call him their Lord , others did as well . comprehend ?

zodiakzax:
No rush bruv, Let OneJ answer then we continue... ,

zodiakzax:

Yes bruv exactly , and since David and all the others called Jesus My Lord, Jesus is their Master.. .....Now you are getting it..... one verse to show Jesus called the Father My Lord and there's earthquake every where.

zodiakzax:
You can't speak for him,

So let him BOLDLY SAY that Jesus is begotten, why is he scared?

Your organization isn't scared to say that Jesus is begotten SO WHY can't he, you captivator do you believe Jesus is begotten?

zodiakzax:
you see how you sound so stupid again, I will reply shortly..... and plus is Jesus the begotten Son of God? You havnt answered that.... prove to captivator that you believe that.....

zodiakzax:
another one coming to make a fool out of himself

Well Let's see who called Him My Lord


And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:28 KJV

You see your lie?


So who was Thomas? Falls within the Many other disciples i guess, in fact he was one of the 12....