₦airaland Forum

Emusan:
Good! So was God lying to the Old Testament people then?

Now you have accepted that Jesus Christ is a Creator because ONLY a Creator can CREATE.

Anyways, I know you will change mouth again.



No one disputes this.

But at least you believe God can't lie by claiming to create everything ALL BY HIMSELF.



But it was Christ who CREATED EVERYTHING

But you said above that "at Hebrew 1:10, he claimed that his son created" can you see how confused people like you who follow doctrines of men can be?

Solve the one you put yourself into first!

Argue with the Bible

johnw47:
for Christians the Lord Jesus is all that and so much more

^^ some of the evil of lost false jw's
to false jw's "Jesus is Lord" is a hopeless slogan:

1Co_12:3  Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

1Co 8:6  yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 

Joh 13:13  "You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.

Lol

Emusan:
Quote the verse I misinterpreted.
I never deny that.
I never deny this either.
Though you left most of my points unaddressed which is the reason you can't come with any rebuttal.
Did God lie that He created everything ALL BY HIMSELF?
Did God lie that His VERY RIGHT HAND stretched the Universe?

In the OT God claimed that he created with his own hands, at Hebrew 1:10, he claimed that his son created but at Hebrew 1:2 and John 1:3 both John and the writer of the book of Hebrews understood that "God created everything through Jesus Christ".
In another words, God used Christ to create everything. Thus God is the creator.

No place in the Bible did Jesus claim to be the creator.

Go and solve the puzzle yourself.

MaxInDHouse:
Satan has really blinded them!

Imagine how they're always singing "Jesus is this, Jesus is that, Jesus is left right front back and center yet what is the will of God that's supposed to take place in the midst of Jesus' disciples as one family of peace?
They don't care! Matthew 7:21-23

Even when you're showing them the will of God as stated in the Bible which believers supposed to fulfil as assurance that Jesus is working with them they will ignore as long as you're not blindly mimicking their hopeless slogan "Jesus is Lord"
But to be honest who is truly saying:
"Jesus is Lord"

Is it people whose doctrines are conflicting and doctrines contradicting, ever ready to pick up weapons against one another due to politics and racism?

Or people who are carefully examine what Jesus commanded and helping one another to fulfil it?

Jehovah's Witnesses don't just go about saying "Jesus is LORD" blindly but everything we do is strictly according to Jesus' orders.
So if anyone should ask "why are you people doing things the way you're doing?"
Only Jehovah's Witnesses can quote Jesus and show how practical we are applying it but all these people just go about shouting and singing "Jesus is Lord" whereas when it comes to the love Jesus commanded they trash it like nonsense!

You're right Sir.

Do you know those verses that Jesus taught us to pray for enemies and love them? These people don't follow it.
And that was one of concerns before I started studying with the JWs.
Despite Jesus's teachings on praying for our enemies and not hating them, we would pray to God to kill our enemies and do them bad in our church.
I would wonder, would God answer this evil prayers? I knew it wasn't right.
I grew in the CAC church.
It's common in all those pentecostal churches.

But when I found out that JWs don't pray that way, they would never pray against their enemies, I was so happy. They are the only ones following every Christ teachings and doing all God's will back to back.

Jokerman:
So you accept that Angel Michael is on the same pedestal as God the Father, then?

Nobody is equal to God the Father.

Emusan:
At least you see that I'm quoting the scripture and not another Book.
But the scripture says He is the Creator.

Nope you misinterpreted.
God is the creator.
God created through Christ. That's it.

johnw47:
yes it is, not for you though posting lies

Huh

Jokerman:
So what does the Bible mean by this??
1. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
2. Jesus said, John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
So God and Angel Michael are one?

You guys don't understand anything in the scriptures.
Jehovah the Father can be "one" with even humans.
If Michael is Jesus yes, Michael is one with God.

John 17:21,23
[21]I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one —as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.
[23]I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me.

Jesus being one with the Father is just like when a man marries and joins to a woman and they become one.

John 10:28-29
[28]I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,
[29]for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.

At John 10:30 what Jesus meant was not that he's equal or the same person with the Father but the Father and him are both working in perfect unity for the same purpose i.e protecting the sheep.

Jokerman:
So it makes sense that Angel Michael is self same person as Jesus Christ??
You better repent of such heresy! Please !

It's heresy to say Jesus is Jehovah.
So absurd really.

Jesus life already started in heaven even before he created the universe for his Father, Jehovah.
So what was his identity before was born as human?
The clues point that Michael is Jesus.
Take it or leave.

I would really like you to show me where Jesus claim to Jehovah his Father or where Jehovah claim to be Jesus the son.

johnw47:
Ecclesiastes 7:6
For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fool


corny

Jesus loved the righteousness and hated the iniquity's on earth
and God anointed Him above his fellows: apostles and disciples (believers)

Luk 4:18  "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

Jesus inherited a much better name than the angels heb 1:4
^^ showing that Jesus is not the same as angels but above them, The Word/Jesus, Son of God is of the same Spirit as God naturally, and as john 1:1 + shows
He is not the same spirit as angels are, He made the angels , they are not begat by



Heb 1:9  "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS." 
Heb 1:10  And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

^^ God talks about Jesus on earth loving righteousness etc.
and then goes back to when the Word/Jesus created the earth

It's well

MaxInDHouse:
Who sent himself, obeyed himself, prayed to himself, answered himself, offered sacrifice to himself, granted his sacrifice by himself, sent angels to console himself, cried to himself for help, died and resurrected himself, and sat at his own right in heaven!

You sabi Bible no be small!

Hilarious 😂😂

Emusan:
Smile...even when your organisation claimed Jesus is the one talking in Proverb 8

But read through Prov 8 and see where God Himself carrying out the Creation activities.



So you means when Bible says "...I stretched out the heavens with My hands
And I ordained all their host." it was Jesus using the hands of God

You don't know why Watchtower wants you to believe that Jesus is an Angel.

It's not my fault that you don't understand it.
Jesus never claimed to be the creator.

MaxInDHouse:
I will love to see you grow in the faith!

Thanks you sir haha. There are a lot of challenges. Jah will help me through 🙂

MaxInDHouse:
I have decided to avoid fruitless arguments since i now have many looking up to me on the forum for enlightenment so instead of waisting my precious time with argumentators i ignore them! Titus 3:9

I don't do that either.
I don't really have the time

Emusan:
Jesus never had a beginning! A Creator doesn't have a beginning.



Then Dangote will never make a statement like "I Dangote operate the machines that produce my cement"

And if Dangote actually made such statement I believe even you will never deny that Dangote isn't the very one who produced the cement by himself.



Kindly quote the place you got this from.



It means Jesus is the one who created Himself because John 1:3 says "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." - NWT

And God can't lie.



Yes He is the first born of all creation and not FIRST CREATED PERSON. The two statements aren't the same.



A created Being needs space to occupy, where was Jesus living before God used Him to create Heaven?

1. Yet you believe Jesus has companions/fellow when He was the only one Created directly by God.

2. Yet you claimed He was PROMOTED, to which post again?

3. Yet you believe Jesus is still the same category of Angels.

So definitely if you believe this about Him, then you underrated Him for calling Him Angel because Jesus shouldn't be in the category of Angels at all.

Alright

Jokerman:
I can point it out to you that Jesus is Jehovah himself

That wouldn't make any sense.
There's the Father and there's the son.

Emusan:
It's not that's because you lack scriptural understanding.



Absolutely! So how can He be An Angel when Angels are all product of Creation.

Only Being who can exist outside Creation is God.



Very well! Buy do you?

Notice the @underlined part.

ONLY GOD HAS ABSOLUTE POWER TO Sustain CREATION YET THIS VERSE SAYS Jesus is the one carrying out that operation.



No doubt about that but the question is, why someone who was directly created by Jehovah according to you - JWs (which means second in command to Jehovah) will still need to be PROMOTED? Which promotion pass second in command?

The only promotion someone like VP will have is to the very President.

So for Jesus to be promoted means He never hold such post before which is the reason Paul says in Col 1:18 "...so that he might become the one who is first in all things;" NWT

The reason is that Jesus was never part of the creation but when He became part of the creation THERE'S A NEED FOR HIM TO BECOME FIRST IN ANYTHING UNDER CREATION which is the reason God COMMANDED ALL ANGELS to Worship Him.



The Bible says so not me.



Your reason is faulty that's not the reason.

John specifically says THE WORD is the Agent behind the Creation not SPOKESMAN and John never addressed Jesus as Michael



Yes because the Father sent Him as A Son.



Nobody have problem with that.



No! Not the reason. The reason is well detailed from John himself when he says in John 1:1 "In the beginning was The WORD..."

And went further to say in verse 3 that "All things came into existence through him,(The Word) + and apart from him(The Word) not even one thing came into existence. - NWT

Notice @color-red "NOT EVEN ONE THING CAME INTO EXISTENCE"

Remember ALL ANGELS including Micheal came into existence, again the ONLY BEING WHO DIDN'T CONE INTO EXISTENCE is God.

God has no beginnings. But Jesus has a beginning. He existed at a point.

Dangote produces cement, does it mean he's the one that operate the machines?

God used Jesus as a tool to create everything. God created Jesus first. That's why he's the firstborn of creation and God's only begotten. God created him directly.

Emusan:
Angels are not The HOLY ONE!

In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.* + 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him,+ and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence John 1:1-3 - NWT

Primary school question for you: Who brought things into existence?

"And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. Heb 1:10 NWT

God brought things into existence through his son.
Jesus used God's resources.

Emusan:
This is very laughable!

So was Jesus involved in CREATION OR NOT?



You're the very one who is contradicting yourself.

How can God USED Jesus and Jesus isn't the Creator?

Now, from Genesis creation account where does God used anybody?

God only SPOKE the scripture says IT WAS SO!

Proverbs 8: 22-36 talk about how God carried out the Creation By HIMSELF.

In Isaiah God says He created everything ALL BY HIMSELF.

Are all these verses lying?



That's not the situation.

As An Engineer I have never seen where any Client claimed HE BUILDS THE STRUCTURE BY HIMSELF/HERSELF.

Many Bible verses show God created the universe ALL BY HIMSELF, God can't be lying!



I know you will soon start changing mouth.

The event in Heb 1 is all about the coming of the Son INTO THE WORLD. come with another lie.



Remember He became part of creation.

Is He not the Only highest ranking Angel which is next to Jehovah according to Watchtower? So why must He be MADE BETTER THAN THE ANGELS again when He is already higher than ANY ANGELS?



I do! Do you?

Okay

Emusan:
Which is The Word of God
Not at all, Bible never addressed Jesus as Angel Michael. You can bring the verse here.
It's you who is in denial mode.
1. God is the ONLY one ever refers to as "The HOLY ONE" and that was exactly how the evil spirit refers to Jesus because he knows who was standing before him.
2. God is the Only one ever refers to as THE BEGINNING and the New Testament called Jesus this without missing word.
3. God is the Only one ever refers to as the Creator and the New Testament says Jesus is the Creator.
So where exactly does any Bible verse called Jesus archangel Michael?

Lol no place in the Bible did Jesus claim to be the creator nor was he called the creator.
Bring verses 🤡🤡

Lol holy one...are the angels in heaven holy ones or not 🤣🤣

Emusan:
He was not part of creation until He became man.
Which means He was not SON until that time God appointed Him. Do you agree?
He was God who created the universe.
No! It's a delight He has towards His own creation!

Hebrews 1:2
[2]And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe.

God created the universe through the son, and you say "Jesus was God who created the universe"?

Now you're contradicting the Bible. That place is clear enough.
God was the creator who created the universe through his son. We can say God used his son, Jesus to create everything.

It's like when you hire a construction company to build a building for you. You built that building through the construction company. It's still you cause you provided all the resources.

Actually, according to the Hebrew verse where God appointed Jesus as his son, the event took place in heaven. Probably before the world was even created.

At verse 4 Hebrew chapter 1, Jesus is made more better than the angels, does that mean he's equal to God?

Think think think 🤡🤡🤡🤡

Emusan:
The Word of God!
Can you quote where Jesus was called Michael from Genesis to Revelation?

That's ridiculous. The word of God is the Bible.
Jesus was with God before the beginning of creation of the world. He existed alongside with God. He was a being distinct from the Father.

Hebrews 1:3
[3]The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven.

Hope you understand this verse.
After Jesus finished his first mission on earth, he was exalted to the right hand of God. That's a promotion.

So I don't know what you mean that Jesus is God's word. Explain better.

I reasoned from the Bible that Jesus/Micheal had been God's spokesman from the ancient times that's why John gave him the title "the word".
Also Jesus said that he didn't speak on authority but only says what the Father commanded him.
At revelation 1:1 we see that the revelation was handed from God to Jesus.
These are the reasons why John the apostle referred to Jesus Christ as the WORD.

Jokerman:
Did the Bible tell us that?

All we know is that... "He's the word of God, and He's God with us"

So the fact is Jesus had an identity before becoming human and the clues we have in the Bible point that he is/was Michael.
Whether you agree or not doesn't change anything.

MaxInDHouse:
Don't you have any closeby meeting where you can attend imperson with brothers and sisters?

I'm really worried with the highlighted please find a way to start attending imperson meetings we are already living in the last of the last days and everything is happening really fast these days so we don't know what next will happen but we're sure God's kingdom is closer than ever before!

So my brother there are lots of new info we're getting now that only those attending imperson meetings are getting therefore make sure you have someone (trusted) closeby who will always update you on the latest info after the imperson meetings.

With love from your brother Maximus!

Thanks for your concern Sir.
I'll find a place when I move osun state around October.
I'll call you and explain better.

Emusan:
I do say that the problem you people have with the scripture is the inability to distinguish between when the scripture speaks about Jesus becomes part of creation and before becoming part of creation.
Yes! That was when He became part of creation.
Now, pay attention to that @underlined because your mouth will soon change.
From that @underlined it shows that you have the understanding that Jesus was never A SON from beginning but was MADE A SON at a point.
Yes! When He became part of creation.
No! Jesus was never addressed as Angel Michael nor any verse supported it (you provide the verse here if I'm wrong). Rather, the scripture says Jesus is the Creator.

Lol. When was he not part of creation?

According to the chapter, we see that at a point, he wasn't appointed as God's son yet. Then God appointed him.
So before God appointed him, what was he?

Isn't becoming God's son a privilege and promotion to Jesus

johnw47:
most dum confused and blinded corny

of course you neither believe or understand God's word showing clearly that Jesus was never an angel

and my post wasn't about Jesus being a greater being to God oh dummy

1Co 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them

Okay

Jokerman:
Only a confused JW will equate Angel Michael to the Lord Jesus Christ

What was Jesus name before he came to earth and was named Jesus?

MaxInDHouse:
My brother Cornelboy!
Where have you been all these while?
I changed my mobile device the former one had technical issues so i lost most contacts otherwise i would have called you, please send me a message tomorrow if you still have my contact but if not then DM me through my Gmail!

I've been around sir but not active on Nairaland.
Hope you're fairing well sir?

I have your contact. I will message you.
I'm still studying. And I attend weekly meetings on zoom

johnw47:
Ecclesiastes 7:6
For as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fool
God clearly shows that Jesus was not a angel;
Heb 1:5  For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"? 
Heb 1:6  And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM." 
Heb 1:7  And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE." 
Heb 1:8  But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 
Heb 1:9  "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS." 
Heb 1:10  And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 
Heb 1:11  THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 
Heb 1:12  AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END." 
Heb 1:13  But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET"? 
Heb 1:14  Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? 
Heb 2:11  For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 
1Jn 1:3  what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
God Himself made believers fellows with Jesus:
1Co 1:9  God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
God Himself anointed Jesus above His fellows:
Heb 1:9  "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR FELLOWS."
and you are right in not considering so called Jehovah's witnesses part of Christendom:
Christendom. / (ˈkrɪsəndəm) / noun. the collective body of Christians throughout the world or throughout history. an obsolete word for Christianity.

Lol that event took place in heaven.
His fellows were the angels.

Jesus was anointed by God..
He obtained a name..
God appointed him to be his son..

Jesus is clearly a lesser being to God.

The clues we see point that Jesus identity before he came to the world was being the archangel Michael.

cornelboy:
Yeah "Jesus" was the name specifically given to him (Michael) at birth on earth because of the mission he came to do.
So Jesus had a different name before he came to earth.

Hebrews 1:5 NlV
[5]For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus:
“You are my Son.
    Today I have become your Father.”God also said,
“I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son.”
At some point, God chose Jesus to be his son. Okay.

Hebrews 1:9 KJV
[9]Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God also anointed Jesus (Michael) above his fellows?
Please someone from Christendom should tell us who Jesus's fellows were
Not the angels?

Hebrews 1:4 KJV
[4]Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

So Jesus was made better than the angels. That means Jesus was not in the category of the other angels. He's greater than them. Logically, he could be called an archangel 'cause an archangel is undoubtedly greater than normal angels. Cool.
Also, we see that God made him so.
So can Jesus be equal to God

Jesus is sure greater than the angel but he will never be equal to God, hence, trinity is trash.

In a nutshell, there are enough clues to believe that Jesus is archangel Michael.

All these people parading themselves as Christians are really foolish. If only they could humble themselves and learn.
Their brains have been critically infested with catholic dogmas that they couldn't not see the TRUTH even when they see it.

Maximus692

@Hebrew 1:4
Jesus even obtained an excellent name than the angel. He obtained it.
Is that someone you even call God or equal to God almighty 🤦🏾‍♂️

Janosky:
Tire for your DELUSION.
Let's reason on the holy scriptures......
Who is the serpent of Genesis 3:15?
Revelation 12:7-9 is the answer.
Who is the seed of Genesis 3:15 that defeated the serpent?
Revelation 12:7-9 & 1 John 3:8 is the answer.
Archangel Michael leads angels in battle, Daniel 10:13.
Who is leading angels in battle?
Matthew 25:31,2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 & 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is the answer.
In your Bible, Paul has more than one name.
Peter has more than one name.
Jesus Christ has more than one name.
Go & figure this out & have peace.

Yeah "Jesus" was the name specifically given to him (Michael) at birth on earth because of the mission he came to do.
So Jesus had a different name before he came to earth.

Hebrews 1:5 NlV
[5]For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus:
“You are my Son.
    Today I have become your Father.”God also said,
“I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son.”
At some point, God chose Jesus to be his son. Okay.

Hebrews 1:9 KJV
[9]Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God also anointed Jesus (Michael) above his fellows?
Please someone from Christendom should tell us who Jesus's fellows were
Not the angels?

Hebrews 1:4 KJV
[4]Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

So Jesus was made better than the angels. That means Jesus was not in the category of the other angels. He's greater than them. Logically, he could be called an archangel 'cause an archangel is undoubtedly greater than normal angels. Cool.
Also, we see that God made him so.
So can Jesus be equal to God

Jesus is sure greater than the angel but he will never be equal to God, hence, trinity is trash.

In a nutshell, there are enough clues to believe that Jesus is archangel Michael.

All these people parading themselves as Christians are really foolish. If only they could humble themselves and learn.
Their brains have been critically infested with catholic dogmas that they couldn't not see the TRUTH even when they see it.

Maximus692