₦airaland Forum

,

@hoopernikao, You're a just contentious person. If you can't tell me where in the Bible that relates Jesus to being God, then this convo is as good as over.

hoopernikao:
Are you reading my text or just thinking it? Did you see Ephesians 6:12 in my write up?

You need to start reading patiently and carefully. So do that now.

Okay, so I've seen you quoted Ephesians 3:10, now explain how the passage relates to there being many archangels.

DappaD:
Of course it means he is the only chief angel. If the Bible calls him the only archangel in Jude 9 and calls him something else in Daniel 10:13, it would then mean there is an inconsistency which is not so. Now think of this, can an army have two people filling the role of a commander in chief? No. At Revelation 12:7, we read “...Michael[the archangel] and his angels battled...”, then we go on to read at Revelation 17:14, “These will battle with the Lamb[Jesus]...” meaning there is only one of such army in heaven that carry out all God's will/judgment in one accord. Saying that there is more than one army in heaven is inconsistent, although the Bible says the angels in heaven are “myriads of myriads” or “thousands of thousands”. It does not indicate that there are division of armies in heaven, since they are all doing the will of God.

Now considering what you pointed out at Daniel 10:13, it reads “...But then Michael, one of the foremost princes...”
Taken into account what ‘foremost’ means that there is only one prince of the first rank.
Okay see, in an army of soldiers, there is only one commander in chief, in God's Kingdom, that person is Jesus or Michael. Coming back to military ranks, there are other notable positions that can be occupied as well, such as “General of the army” , “Lieutenant General” , “Major General”. So the Commander In Chief here is referred to just Michael[or Jesus] even though he is among princes of notable ranks.

Please read the last paragraph again.

hoopernikao:
That means we can discern from bible too that Jesus is God, isn't it. Same logic.

Okay, please explain where it says that Jesus is God in the Bible. Explain carefully with scriptures as I have explained that Jesus is Michael the archangel earlier. Please do so in earnest.

hoopernikao:
Bro, Daniel 10:13 said one of. Didn't you see that? Can you readily twist that? One of? Means it's not consistent?

Also leave aside the wrestling of Jesus as Angel. You have no scriptures for that yet you consistently mentioning it.

One of the chief princes.

See below.

Ephesians 3:10
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The word principalities here is from the same root "arche" which implies beginning of, the chiefs. Note that it is principalities and powers. That is chiefs, leaders. Refering to heavenly being.

The bible never mentioned number of arch angels and we must stay with bible narration. Making assumptions that we have only one because Michael is refered to as arch is dubious. Scriptures pointed that we have many of them.

If you understand bible narration, you will know that it will usually leave out names that isn't needed in discussion, hence the reason for Michael mentioned.

You will only be dubious to see "one of the princes" and said Daniel made a mistake.

See how confused you are?
Ephesians 6:12 speaks about “...governments, against authorities, against the wicked rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in heavenly places”
And not one of the angels in God's army.
Coming back to your argument again, the Bible does not state the number of archangels because there is only just ONE whose name is Michael[or Jesus] Jude 9
Can an army of soldiers have two people who have the commander in chief rank? No, the position is just for one person. Also, in God's army of angels, there will likely be other angels of notable ranks, but not having that “archangel” title. Since it is reserved for one person, Michael.

Everything I've stated above is clear. You're just causing more confusion for yourself.
Peace.

hoopernikao:
So it is by assumption or derived right? Not mentioned absolutely? Good.

Now for archangel. You assumed it to be one Sir.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

The word archangel is taken from the Greek word archaggelos. It simply implies a chief, a ruler of angels, a superior angel, to rank first. It is the same used by Daniel.

Daniel spoke about more than one chief and ruler or angels. Pay attention.

Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

One of here implies more than one. So we have chief princes of the angels.

Because Michael is mentioned doesn't mean he is the only chief or archangel. It won't be. So, that means God may likely have created many Jesus as archangels as we don't know the one he is using his voice in Thessalonians.

Of course it means he is the only chief angel. If the Bible calls him the only archangel in Jude 9 and calls him something else in Daniel 10:13, it would then mean there is an inconsistency which is not so. Now think of this, can an army have two people filling the role of a commander in chief? No. At Revelation 12:7, we read “...Michael[the archangel] and his angels battled...”, then we go on to read at Revelation 17:14, “These will battle with the Lamb[Jesus]...” meaning there is only one of such army in heaven that carry out all God's will/judgment in one accord. Saying that there is more than one army in heaven is inconsistent, although the Bible says the angels in heaven are “myriads of myriads” or “thousands of thousands”. It does not indicate that there are division of armies in heaven, since they are all doing the will of God.

Now considering what you pointed out at Daniel 10:13, it reads “...But then Michael, one of the foremost princes...”
Taken into account what ‘foremost’ means that there is only one prince of the first rank.
Okay see, in an army of soldiers, there is only one commander in chief, in God's Kingdom, that person is Jesus or Michael. Coming back to military ranks, there are other notable positions that can be occupied as well, such as “General of the army” , “Lieutenant General” , “Major General”. So the Commander In Chief here is referred to just Michael[or Jesus] even though he is among princes of notable ranks.

In the Bible, individuals sometimes are known to bear more than one name.
For example, Jacob is also known as Israel, Peter is also known as Simon and Cephas, Nathanael(one of Jesus' apostles) is also called Bartholomew. That the Bible didn't come out explicitly and say “Jacob is Israel” or “Peter is Cephas” or “Nathanael is Bartholomew” doesn't mean we can't discern on in-depth study that they can be called more than one name. Though Jesus at one point called Peter “Cephas”
The same goes for Jesus Christ, because the Bible didn't explicitly say “Jesus is Michael” doesn't mean we can't discern from the Bible that they're the same person. Apparently, his name in heaven is Michael and the authority Michael holds and the action he took, portrays all the things said about Jesus Christ.

hoopernikao:
Bro, don't be too fast to conclude. Lay out the answer nah. You haven't done it yet. Let me see how Jesus is angel Michael.

What is the meaning of the term ‘archangel’?
It means “chief of the angels”. Jude 6 calls Michael “the archangel” meaning there's only one angel in that position. And it is never used in plural, meaning only one person bears this title.
Also in Daniel 12:1, Michael is also called the “great prince” which coincides with a prophecy foretold at Isaiah 9:6,7 which called Jesus the “Prince of Peace”.

Now in Revelation 12:7, we read “...Michael and his angels battled with the dragon...”, we also see at 2Thessalonians 1:7 that says “...the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels...”
Jesus himself said the time will come when he will “come in the glory of his Father with his angels...” (Matthew 16:27)
So regarding the position and authority Jesus wields in God's Kingdom, it is safe to say that Jesus is Michael the archangel. In light of that, in Paul's words to the Colossians, he called Jesus “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15)
All these are drawn from the Bible and only those who truly want to do the will of God will find such sacred secrets.

hoopernikao:
Well, you know scriptures you have argued with all the time. It's your turn to tell me how Jesus became angel. Lay out scriptures and not assumptions like your colleague said I should use insight. Explain it here. At least we have a solid conclusion already that it wasn't taught after the Apostles.

Your type of person isn't looking for answers to learn, rather to ridicule or to make a point. If you can't accept what's being presented to you, that's your own business.

DappaD:
Bro there are many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures that point to Jesus Christ as having existed before the world was created (Proverbs 8:22-31 & Micah 5:2) and also in the Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus said that he descended from heaven(John 3:13). There are also other scriptures that point to Jesus being the firstborn of God's creation in the Christian Greek Scriptures, two of which are Colossians 1:15,16 and Revelations 3:14. Now tell me, considering all the scriptures point to, what form could Jesus have possibly existed as in heaven before he came to the earth?

@hoopernikao, read this again.

hoopernikao:
Enough and you couldn't provide beyond 3 scriptures, or tell where it was used directly. Aren't enough scriptures on Jesus as God too?

Please quote from the Bible where it says that Jesus is God or it looks like it's saying Jesus is God. Please do quote.

hoopernikao:
.
Bro, you are the one who just raised this. So tell me the form.

I want you to use your intellect. What form could Jesus have existed as in heaven if not as an angel?

Rozz:
I seriously do not believe that Jesus is Angel Michael since it was not found in the bible,if you say it's a hidden knowledge,why was the knowledge hidden and how did only JW came about that knowledge,so many things not adding up regarding this

You could ask any Jehovah's witness around you or one you know up front about questions you have and they'll respond to you using the Bible. There is enough evidence in the Bible to know that Jesus existed as an archangel in heaven, that is, by the name of Michael.
Most people on this thread read the Bible for the sake of being called “Christians” or just read it on the surface but they don't truly understand what the Bible really teaches.

hoopernikao:
Is it not arguments you have been involved in on this OP from beginning? Why is it now that I asked for evidence on your claims that you then shift ground.

Well, it is not an argument, it's an enlightenment for you that no church fathers received such doctrine of "Jesus is an Angel" from the Apostles or Jesus himself. And thus, none of them preached it. The doctrine likely originated from 3rd century (go and research the proponent) that is about 250 -350 years after Jesus's death and about 300 years after the last apostle of Jesus died.

And like I told you, you can't say same of the doctrine of "Jesus as God" in the early teaching of these men. Except you can point me to what I don't seems to know or havent read then this won't be an argument with you but enlightenment for you to research further on what you claim to be true.

Lastly, don't always make claims from scriptures and then throw the card of "I don't want to argue".
It's presents you in bad light.

When claims are made in the scriptures, you must be ready and able to provide unshaken evidence as taught, practiced and documented by the early churches as the information you give here can mislead many (as you are deliberately doing on Rozz).
And for some of us, in as much as we desire to overlook some of your wrong claims, we won't fold our hands seeing you using bible as defence yet without the bible teaching.

Bro there are many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures that point to Jesus Christ as having existed before the world was created (Proverbs 8:22-31 & Micah 5:2) and also in the Christian Greek Scriptures, Jesus said that he descended from heaven(John 3:13). There are also other scriptures that point to Jesus being the firstborn of God's creation in the Christian Greek Scriptures, two of which are Colossians 1:15,16 and Revelations 3:14. Now tell me, considering all the scriptures point to, what form could Jesus have possibly existed as in heaven before he came to the earth?