₦airaland Forum

Workch:
No one complains when you threaten us with Hell if we don’t believe Jesus Christ o.

Have you gotten to find out the kind of person I am and what I believe in the first place? Do you think I’m one of those ignorant imbeciles who pander their worthless doctrine of a hellfire to instill fear into their audience when they’re not responsive?
Listen, I’m all for applying reason to the Bible and I’ve found it out to be authentic and reliable.

***********************************

This is where it gets interesting, I can bet my bottom dollar that you will not be satisfied with the above response and you will need me to start proving and proving why I believe in what I do so let’s see how the condition you set below comes into play now:

Workch:
Nobody can control what you believe

Workch:
Nobody can control what you believe,

it's your personal life however It becomes a problem when those who believe the fictional Bible can't keep it to themselves.
It's becomes a problem when they try to use those fictions to dictate how everyone should live their lives.
Everyone is aware of the fact that there's no rationality in the scriptures and those who believe it do that on the basis of faith and not reason, it's okay to believe whatever you want but it's not okay to spread such beliefs like cancer and literally make your fictional narratives the unfalsifiable truth. That's where Christianity has a problem
If your fictional stories have to be true then it's going to do so on the basis of rationality and evidence.
Religion is like a penis, it's okay to have it but when you flash it on the faces of those who don't want to see it, it becomes a problem.

Says the tryhard who’s created over 20 threads on the religious section constantly hoping to bring the belief in a God to disrepute. I don’t need to read the rest of your post, just the first line is enough for me. Do you know if you take your own advice, you won’t be all over the place taking panadol for the headache of religionists?
I’ve come across a number of atheists on NL but I got to give it to you man! You’re the only one actually going overboard with this.

The answer is pretty much easy.

The Almighty God did not have a beginning(Psalm 93:2) while Jesus had a beginning. Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14

johnw47:

false jw dappa d dope
you have searched for a faulty translation to suit your false belief.
the one to be served/worshipped in verse 27 is the most High:
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Strongs: 06399
6399 plach pel-akh' (Aramaic) corresponding to 6398; to serve or worship:--minister, serve. see HEBREW for 06398

Daniel 7:27

Good News Translation

“The power and greatness of all the kingdoms on earth will be given to the people of the Supreme God. Their royal power will never end, and all rulers on earth will serve and obey them.”


God’s Word Translation

“The kingdom, along with the power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven, will be given to the holy people of the Most High. Their kingdom is eternal. All other powers will serve and obey them.”


JPS Tanakh

“And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.”


What makes you think the above translations are faulty and the King James is trustworthy? For your information, in that verse there is no third person pronoun “him” in Hebrew.
The above translations used “them” because the context is not referring to a person, but a group of people.

Heck it’s even in harmony with the rest of the Bible. Jesus promised his disciples that God would give them a Kingdom and they would rule as kings and judges alongside him. Matthew 19:28, Luke 12:32, 22:28-30, Revelation 3:21, 20:4,6 see also 2Timothy 2:12


The question remains, are we to worship these people who also receive a Kingdom like the son of man did in verse 14?

Nawa! OP quoted Daniel 7:13,14 hoping to make it stick to the belief that one should worship Jesus.
Somehow somehow, “serve” suddenly changed to “worship” in his dictionary.

Since Daniel chapter 7 is being considered, why is the OP omitting the verse 27 of that chapter which says:

“The kingdom, along with the power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven, will be given to the holy people of the Most High. Their kingdom is eternal. All other powers will serve and obey them.”—God’s Word Translation(1995)

Does OP agree that we should worship these people mentioned in the verse 27 or shall we stick to the original meaning of the word “serve” ?
Will these people automatically become equal to God since they also receive a kingdom just like the son of man did in verse 14?

MaxInDHouse:
If this is how the Holy Spirit made the first century Jewish Christians argue always without coming to terms how then were they able to make disciples under one umbrella?
Well Jesus have passed the judgment: LIARS against God's Holy Spirit will never be forgiven {Matthew 12:31-32} because God's Holy Spirit doesn't continue speaking against itself all the time. Romans 15:5-6; 1Corinthians 1:10
You know i'm beginning to suspect that this people are making some sense when they are saying their holy ghost is a person, don't you think that could be true of one spirit person who takes pleasure ruling over confused people? 2Corinthians 4:4; Revelations 12:9

Acts 15:28
“For the holy spirit and we ourselves...”

At the very best, God’s holy spirit(having no gender i.e. neuter) enabled the apostles and elders in Jerusalem to reach a finite conclusion which resulted in the rejoicing and strengthening of the congregations. Acts 15:32,41

Meanwhile this unholy ghost that they claim to be a person has only been multiplying the confusion amongst those who worship him. Another funny thing is that since they claim it’s a person whom they chat and gist with, they cannot still figure out his name up until now.

Bishopkingsley:
A natural man can never understand the things of the spirit

How about you go pick a fight with someone your own size? BassReeves, awitness41, shadeyinka maybe?


Update:

Bishopkingsley:
The things we say here looks strange to you because they told you holy spirit power is no longer working

Here’s the thing Kingsley, you and BassReeves(aka MuttleyLaff) very much believe in a Trinity (although Reeves has his own version) yet both of you obviously can’t come to an agreement on doctrine.



Honestly, I feel my IQ steadily decreases whenever you mention me and I reply. I’m serious. Don’t quote me anymore. Thanks.

Trinity will never cease to amaze me. Bunch of confused human beings.

MightySparrow:
So, they talk about money too in their organisation!

Lol no they shouldn’t. Construction/engineering firms will supply the Witnesses building materials free of charge na.

tctrills:
Like earlier stated, Abraham and the ancient father's did not give the Lord 10% of their wealth because they just felt like.
That's never how it happened. It was because it was the right thing to do in the sight of God.
In our religion, we don't just do whatever we feel like but what the Lord require's of us.
In religion, man does not dictate how to worship. Our worship can only come as revelation from God.
If Abraham was inventing his own worship, then it is Apostasy.
Abraham was commanded to pay tithes. It was not his own creation
Again let me stress that all forms of church donations are voluntary.
The early Christians gave all and shared all things in common. How many churches do that today?

There were a lot of other things that Abraham did which the Israelites didn’t and couldn’t do, so please relax this is not about creating a different form of worship. Also remember we are no longer in the Abrahamic period so let’s get past that. I believe the Scriptures provided are sufficient enough for the points I’ve made. All you have to do is provide where the highlighted was stated in the Scriptures.

tctrills:

You used the word willingly and I agree. We are not forced to keep any commandment.
Then you said tithe was abolished but you failed to quote any scripture to prove it.

Tithing was a requirement under the Mosaic Law. The Israelites had to give a tenth of their belongings to priests serving at the temple while those priests at the temple would give a tenth of what they received to the High Priest that came from Aaron’s descent. Numbers 18:21-30

My question is, the people who claim to pay tithes today, are they paying it to the natural Levites and those who descended from the family of Aaron? Because from what we know, the former covenant God had with the fleshly Israelites was done away with(Jeremiah 31:31) when Jesus became the High Priest(Hebrews 6:20) and became the mediator of a new covenant. Hebrews 9:15

I agree, no one should be forced to contribute but that isn't the discussion here.
The early Christian's sold all and lay it at the feet of the apostles and still they were asked to donate every week.
Now let it be noted that the tithe isn't the law of Moses. It's the law of God to his people and it was before Moses.

Excuse me, tithing only became an obligation/commandment when the covenant associated with the Mosaic Law was established. Deuteronomy 14:22

Prior to that, there was never any command in the book of Genesis that the patriarchs had to give a tenth of what they had. Abraham and Jacob gave simply because they wanted to, not because they were commanded.
If you don’t agree, you’ll have to show me where Isaac offered up any such tithes since you claim it was a law.

If the law was abolished, it would have been revealed.
In summary, the bible speaks of at least 3 kinds of donations
1. Tithe2. Weekly contributions3. Giving 100%None was abolished for the other at any time.. I stand to be corrected.

Read the Bible for yourself!

Ephesians 2:15
“By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, in order to make the two groups in union with himself into one new man and to make peace,”

Other Scriptures to support this include:

Romans 10:4
“Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.”

Colossians 2:13,14
“Furthermore, though you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of your flesh, God made you alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses and erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.”

Hebrews 7:8,12
vs 8 “And in the one case, it is men who are dying who receive tithes, but in the other case, it is someone of whom witness is given that he lives.”

vs 12 “For since the priesthood is being changed, it becomes necessary to change the Law as well”

tctrills:
First every church collects money one way or the other including JW. They may call it by different names but athe the end its the same money.
Again, do your research, the JW are not the only ones that don't pay tithe.
I know a few envegelical churches in the US that don't pay. They only make contributions.
Finally, in the new testement, Christians were required to give 10% but 100%.
They were asked to sell all they have and give all to the church.
Those who held anything back were stuck dead.
I personally don't know many churches that do 100% today

Wow. I wonder where the words in bold were stated in the Bible. And that word “required” is such a strong word, don’t you think? Funny because such reasoning is not found anywhere in the New Testament. Whoever had to give was to give willingly, you never had the apostles tell anybody what they had to do(Acts 4:34) in fact Peter mentioned that if Ananias and Sapphira had chosen not to sell their field, it would have been totally fine and okay. Acts 5:4

The tithing arrangement of 10% was abolished and is not in force amongst true Christians.

1Corinthians 16:2
“On the first day of every week, each of you should set something aside according to his own means, so that collections will not take place when I arrive.”

Notice that Paul didn’t specify what each member of the congregation was supposed to contribute, he didn’t mention any 10% or 100% but he said according to the person’s means and it should be from a willing heart in order to please God(2Corinthians 9:7) not someone who merely wants to give as a duty. If you notice, neither was the person who gave promised good health, good job etc etc as Churches in Christendom practice when one gives.

wehla:
The Jehovah's witnesses seems to be the only christian denomination not putting emphasis on tithe which has dominated the theme of most churches. From the Bible, tithing is not one of the criteria to make everlasting life and enjoy God's favour

Very true!

Under the Mosaic Law, the Israelites were required to give a tenth of what they had to the Levitical priests(those working in the temple courtyard) and those Levites were required to give a tenth of what they had to Aaron’s priesthood(those serving as High Priests). Numbers 18:21-30

But Christ cancelled the Mosaic Law with his death(Ephesians 2:15) and became the new High Priest(Hebrews 6:20) so there is no physical Most Holy on earth anymore for a human high priest to enter, as heaven had already replaced it(Hebrews 9:24) which means that we don’t need to contribute a tenth of our physical belongings to give to him. All we have to do is listen to and obey his commandments. Matthew 28:19-20, John 15:10

Next time you come cross people who emphasize on the giving of tithes, ask them if they pay their tithes to Levites and those who came from the fleshly bloodline of Aaron. Since the answer will definitely be NO, then it shows they’ve been misled all this while because the death of the Christ terminated all those arrangements under the Mosaic Law. Colossians 2:13-17

MaxInDHouse:
Face the OP, you and i aren't on the same page!

Reminds me of when we used to engage in house to house ministry. One would be out in service conducting Bible study at the home of an interested person, his “aproko” neighbours would begin throwing shades and try to discourage the student afterwards. They don’t want to know the truth and they don’t want others to know it either. Matthew 23:13

Myer:
Are you saying there is no second coming of Christ then?

When and where did I say that? I laid emphasis on the difference between presence and coming. The Bible mentions events that are to take place during the presence of Jesus Christ and there are also events that will take place during the actual coming of Jesus Christ.

For your own convenience, look up the meaning of the Greek words parousia and erchomai. They mean totally different things as the former appears in Matthew 24:3 while the latter appears in Matthew 24:30,44.

What I said was that the KJV mistook the former for the latter meanwhile they mean different things.

Myer:
One of the core doctrines of Christianity is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 24:44
Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
This verse is supposedly over 2000 years ago.
Here are my questions;
1. Has this prophesy been fulfilled? Has Jesus had a second coming after over 2000 years?
2. If any other religion had made this claim which has failed for over 2000 years would you not criticize the religion as fake?
3. Is he coming as a Christian or could he birth another religion viz Islam perhaps?

There are alot of things to unpack from Matthew 24&25. There is also a notable difference between presence mentioned at Matthew 24:3 and coming mentioned at Matthew 24:30,44.
Since the KJV mistook presence for coming, it has led to a lot of problems for most persons to gain understanding.

livingchrist:
Gibberish, you are confused

After all isn’t that what Trinity is all about in the first place? What else do you expect apart from CONFUSION ?

MaxInDHouse:

You can never get a sincere response to that question because there is no group that's zealously preaching and industriously teaching in their neighbourhood like Jehovah's Witnesses!
Case Closed!

I’m still waiting for the answer from her. I don’t know why she has gone mute.

Nuttella:
Yes please?

Please can I find out the name of your church? What’s my reason for asking?

Nuttella:
Yes they study the scriptures but they don't have the real deep understanding

Earlier you alluded to the fact that Witnesses know and study the Scriptures but you also said they don’t have the real deep understanding.

So my question is, what is the name of your church where all its members,
1. Know and study the Scriptures.
2. Have deep understanding of the Scriptures?
And here’s a bonus question for you
3. Are people who are known to live and abide by the standards found in the Scriptures to the extent that outsiders would notice their good works and fine conduct? 1Peter 2:12


It’s just a straightforward question so please and please, do me the honors of giving an answer.

Nuttella:
So you are calling what is written in the bible fraud? Wonderful. Even Jesus said I and my father are one, also the holy spirit is the spirit of God
In the meantime, stay with these scriptures.
Galatians 1:8-9
[8]But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[9]As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

There has been controversies over 1John 5:7-8 and even people who are Trinitarians are being skeptical over that Scripture.

That’s why Johannine Comma was mentioned in the post you quoted, so you can go and look up what that means. The interpolation in that verse was not found in the older and more authentic Greek manuscripts, rather it was added in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible some 300years after John completed those letters to Christians. It was also added to the King James Version centuries later.

The Scriptures says to make sure of all things(1Thessalonians 5:21) so if after someone finds out what the truth means and still keeps on holding on to false notions, it shows that he/she prefers the darkness to the light. John 3:19

Moreover the editor of the Latin Vulgate didn’t take to heart the words found at Revelation 22:18-19 because all what he wanted was to lay a foundation for the false doctrine of Trinity.

Nuttella:
I was arguing with a jehovah witness guy sometimes last month, he opposed some certain doctrines, though he knew the scripture to an extent but not deep enough, I was able to help him understand the scripture he thought he knew, you need know the scripture to an extent before you argue with these people cause they can argue. Yes they study the scriptures but they don't have the real deep understanding, the rhema.
Maxindhouse do you have anything to say about this?

Can I ask you a very simple question? It’s not something you have to think about so I believe you can easily give an answer.

She has got to be the last person through which marriage counsel should come from.

nakaman:
disagree with the bold. In the Catholic doctrine the request through Mary, non Christians make requests to God directly, and their prayers are answered.

According to 1Corinthians 8:5, there are thousands of Gods operating in the spirit realm. So which of them were they praying to?

How do you expect to contact the managing director of a firm if you don’t go through the executive secretary? Do you think you can get to him through workers of lower ranks? Wouldn’t it be appropriate to go through the proper channel?

MightySparrow:
Never, I put questions for anyone to contribute. I have always believe and maintains my stand that JWs do not understand Christianity. Most people I have had discussions with are not sincere when confronted with questions. The same with MaxInDHouse, he dodges questions or not definite in given answers. I am not so bothered, I have met quite a number of you.
The best answer I have got this far is ' New Light.' How many people have been misled by old light? Keep your knowledge to yourselves.

Of course, the ones who don’t understand Christianity put in the same kind of zeal Jesus had when it came to preaching and teaching about God’s Kingdom. Luke 4:43

The ones who don’t understand Christianity are the ones obeying Jesus’ command to love one another to the extent that honest outsiders will confess that they have love amongst themselves. John 13:35

The ones who don’t understand Christianity have proved to be separate from this corrupt system of things and not pledge allegiance to Satan’s governments. John 17:14-16

The ones who don’t understand Christianity are the ones truly obeying Jesus’ command not to use weapons of war against their fellowmen(Matthew 26:52), not even their enemies(Matthew 5:44) but to be peaceable with all sorts of people. Matthew 5:9, 39

Meanwhile you who understands Christianity perfectly cannot answer a simple question related to the reason why God killed Jesus instead of Satan.

So yes that makes perfect sense!

No matter how many billions you spend on publications.

I don’t know why I so much loved this part of your post. So you know the GB are spending billions in producing publications and reaching others with God’s Word while your papa keeps on accumulating billions by garnering tithes and offerings from his clueless members and uses it to maintain his private jet.
I mean, these jokes write themselves!

nakaman:
I have been thinking about this now for some time, I pray in Jesus name, but make all requests to God, whom , Christians believe is the father of Jesus. , I concluded that am worshiping God, what then is the function of Jesus, because according to the Bible, we are all sons and daughters of God.

Worship is to be directed only to the true God and Father because this was what Jesus told his disciples. Matthew 6:9, John 4:23-24
As for the words in bold, Jesus is the mediator between God and men(1Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 9:15) so if you don’t go through Jesus, the Father has nothing to do with you. John 14:6, 15:16

gideonjeta:
In human society today especially in Africa or Nigeria, women are not treated with respect or they are downgraded. What do you think, in your opinion, is God's view of women?

The Bible reveals God’s view of women. The true God is empathetic towards all women whether they are rich, poor, old, young. For instance, the Law he set forth 1,500 years protected the rights of women including widows(Deuteronomy 10:18), allowed women inherit land as a tangible asset(Numbers 27:1-7), and declared justice for vulnerable women who were raped. Deuteronomy 22:25-27
Most especially, he despised men who mistreated their wives. Malachi 2:14-16

Even when God said the Israelites should have nothing to do with the nation of Moab(Deuteronomy 23:3), he still made allowances for a woman from that nation because her heart was complete towards him. Ruth 1:16
There are so many other experiences to relate on how God displayed his love and affection for women in times past.

The Bible reveals that God’s view on these kind of matters doesn’t change so we are sure that he feels all the same way towards women in our day. Malachi 3:6, James 1:17

rabzy:
I hope you are not referring to me...if you are...I wonder on what premise you are assuming this..studying...well all of us are Bible students, we will never graduate from studying...on that you are right..lololol
Just for more clarity...I was baptized at ota assembly when it was not yet an auditorium on September 7 1991, I won't mention other privileges of service through the years. I asked dappa if he wants the zoom link I can give him, and I will remove him after 10mins because I manage the meeting ...I only cautioned on the language I have seen being used here by people who am sure are JW. Even though it is online, we are still ambassadors of Christ when we discuss Bible truths with people in no way should we resort to disparaging words..would you do the same when you meet an irate householder..before the quarrel burst forth take your leave..proverbs 17:14
If someone is not agreeable to the message and we can not continue in an amicable and amiable tone then it is better not to comment at all.

Hello rabzy, seems like we got off on the wrong foot last year. My apologies.
How do you do?

MightySparrow:
Have you shown honesty in your posts?

Never mind me. You have nothing to learn from Witnesses but you solicit answers from them every now and then. Well done.

MightySparrow:
JWs hasn't anything to teach me. The get confused and go into charms. If your God is not sufficient, how do you claim to have faith. If your members male and female abscond from marriages, how do you convince me of sanctity of marriage? I see hypocrisy in your claims. Not to talk of doctrines your GB subtly abandoned.
Your problem is laziness to probe to your past. You are blind followers of confused people.

No wonder the screenshot below speaks volume. You’re not even honest with yourself.

MaxInDHouse:

MightySparrow often feels how intriguing what JWs type each time he read through but he just wish all the religions claiming Christians will be acceptable before God so God could choose people for everlasting in all religions claiming Christians.
I often pity him whenever he's trapped and say "delusion" so just like his Apostate friend, he wish he's worshiping the same God with JWs even though he doesn't want to live by the same standard!

Not just him, anyway. But many other people like him. I often come across people who love how Witnesses do their thing in terms of worship and all.

BUT!

where they seem to get lost is when you choose not to engage in any form of sacred service with them. 2Corinthians 6:14-17
That’s when they turn furious and start saying all manner of distasteful things against you.

I laughed when he said he didn’t have anything to learn from Witnesses. Yet in all the threads he has created on Nairaland, it’s usually Witnesses who do come to his rescue. In fact, for even asking such easy questions like “Why did God kill Jesus instead of Satan” shows how the man is languishing spiritually(Luke 16:24) It seems like the next step forward for him is atheism.

Funny, isn’t it?

About 16/17 years ago, some villagers in the Eastern part of the country ran into a Kingdom Hall when they observed some irregularities in their environment as at then. They remained there until very late in the night. It later turned out that people burning materials in the bush were the cause of the whole brouhaha.
All the while they were in the Hall, the villagers kept muttering, “Armageddon will not destroy this Kingdom Hall”.

Even when the brothers there asked them why they didn’t run to their churches for refuge, they said “All others are nonsense churches, your Armageddon will destroy all of them and not your Kingdom Hall” . Do you think those villagers were deluded to have said that or did they express similar faith like Rahab?

Honestly, I’d say we’ll expect that such would reoccur in the future when people would see all the distressing things happening around them and start looking for Jehovah’s Witnesses to come and preach to them.

MightySparrow:

I laugh in JW' s paradise's language. You JWs are a joke, worse than Islamic Fundamentalists. The kind of things your governing board members put into your heads are weird. I watched Stephen Lett's teaching on Apostates, I think last week. You guys are deluded.
He was talking about how God would destroy all others but JWs!
Hahahaha
Heheheheeeeeeee

Chykes4micheal:

JEHOVAH WITNESS i guess. Tithing is wrong?.... But it is in the bible na. Abi is it someone who was led by the spirit of God that wrote about tithing in the Bible? Una dey read back of Bible?... Na wa o

Which Levite and High Priest are you paying your tithe to? Didn’t the Mosaic Law become obsolete? Ephesians 2:15
Didn’t Jesus replace that arrangement by becoming the High Priest? Hebrews 6:20