₦airaland Forum

Katz - Your comment on the first page regarding the reasons for the blockade starkly contradict Cheif Awolowo's own explanation given in his 1983 interview on the matter while campaigning for the Presidency in Abeokuta.

Martian: .

This man. What on Earth did you write and then remove. Fess up.

Logicboy03: Wassap Deepsight?

been meaning to talk to you privately.....is that okay?

Of course. sightdeep@gmail.com

Any HICC member's available to confirm/ explain away this?

manmustwac: RUBBISH! It really means Lord Of Love

Nonsense, we all know it means "Life of Leprosy" for the sayer.

Earlier this week (Tuesday, I believe) Pastor Matthew Ashimolowo was at HICC Church in Gbagada as a Guest Preacher.

He informed the audience that there is something he does which is called a 24 hour blessing in which those who tap into it receive a huge blessing within 24 hours. According to the Pastor, Those who wanted this special blessing were to come out and line up and sow a seed of USD $ 240.00 (Two hundred and forty USD).

He informed the congregation that there is also another special blessing which requires paying $100 and also asked those paying this sum to come out and form a second line.

He further said that those who wanted both special blessings should come forth and form a third queue between both queues and come out with $340.

All queues were full, long and crowded.

I was informed of this by a relative of mine who is a member of the Church and was filled with disgust.

He wondered why these "blessings" are not available to those who could not afford such sums.

[quote author=Sisi_Kill]This is why I would like the participants to express clearly their definition of State Police.[/quote]A Constitutional or Legal Establishment empowered to maintain law and Order and Enforce the Laws of the State, period. Has nothing to do wth Indigene/ Settler issues.

We cannot have a State Judiciary and State Department of Public Prosecutions without a State enforecment Unit.

HNosegbe: Just to clarify, it is not my intention to limit the recruitment of state policemen to those who originate from such state, and that's why, in my response to Sisi_Kill I said that if a Bassey Ekpeyong is born and bred in Jigawa state and understands the culture of the terrain, he can become a policeman in Jigawa state.

Okay, or if he is trained for their regulations!

Jarus: CHEDDARKING Is unavoidably absent but he sent his taped presentation:

By CHEDDARKING

On the 20th of October this year, Moses Osigwe walked into the Personal Residence of Aliyu Wammako.

Moses as Business Manager of the Gwiwa Business Unit of PHCN was invited by Mr Wammako to discuss the recent dips in power supply to Mr Wammako's Hometown.

Somwhere along the line, Mr Wammako brutally assaulted Moses with a Whip. Poor Moses was beaten Black and Blue, but Mr Wammako was not satisfied- He then instructed the POLICE detail assigned to him to further infict damage to Moses's battered body.

Poor Moses was crushed physically. Mentally. Emotionally.
His Crime? He was the Business Manager of the Gwiwa Business Unit of PHCN in a state where Mr Wammako was the GOVERNOR.

Say hello to State Sponsored Police Brutality with a Personal Twist. Say hello to State Police in Sokoto


On the 21st of January 2010, a team of armed policemen arrested Ikenna Samuelson Iwuoha and whisked him off to the Imo State government house. On that day, the GOVERNOR of Imo State, Ikedi Ohakim alias IKIRI, decided to personally flog Ikenna.
Right there in the governor's office, IKIRI backed by his POLICE goons, stripped Ikenna half-naked and flogged the Living Daylights out of Him. Forget the Passion of the Christ, this was a full-on, one-man-jungle-justice.

Ikenna was completely destroyed.

His Crime? Ikenna Samuelson Iwuoha as an anti-corruption crusader was detailing and publishing IKIRI's systematic looting of Imo State's treasury!
Say Hello Boys and Girls...

This is State Sponsored Police Brutality with a VERY personal twist. My Friends this is the State Police in Imo.


September 20, 2012, an unnamed lady was stripped NAKED by officers of the OSUN STATE SPECIAL POLICE UNIT for a great crime against Humanity.

What was this crime? Only that most grevious crime against God and Man- That most unforgivable of Iniquities:
INDECENT DRESSING
She was dressed Indecently and as so she DESERVED to be exposed NAKED to the whole world.

Step right up folks! Come see for yourselves State Police in Osun State! Can I get an AMEN?

Nigeria is a country where Criminals like James Onanefe Ibori, Diepreye Alamieyesiegha, Lucky Igbinedion, Timipre Sylva, Peter Odili, Chimaroke Nnamani are listed as ex- State Governors.

Nigeria is a country where Schizophrenic Psycopaths like Wammako and Ikiri revel in State Power; Invincible, Untouchable, and of of course 'Un-Annoyable'

Nigeria is a country where State Governors like Rotimi Amaechi, Godswill Ukpabio, and Danbaba Suntai purchase Private Jets with State Funds

Nigeria is a country where Men like Chief Lamidi Adedibu(RIP) backed by his army of NURTW thugs could walk into the House of Assemble and SEIZE the very symbol of Government Authority- the Mace. With IMPUNITY.

I'm not even going to argue against State Police:

I ask YOU esteemed Nairalanders: DO YOU WANT TO THE GIVE THESE MEN MORE POWER?

I ask YOU ALL - ARE WE READY FOR STATE POLICE?

Thank You.

I believe all these scenarios are addressed by the simple suggestions in my posts above.

Tata all, and thanks for the discussion.

Katsumoto: Are you suggesting that the president move troops into such a region? Wouldn't lead to an escalation of hostilities? You have to remember that the police may not be as armed as the army but they will be able to mount some resistance which may lead to loss of life and destruction of property.

Again, recall I had said that this only requires a little thinking. There could be limitation of armaments for State Police. We all know for how long the Street Bobbys (Police) in the U.k even have gone without firearms.

@ All -

I 'd like to clarify that I do not agree with the position canvassed by Hnoseghbe in terms of indigeneship of Police Officers. I speak from a Constitutional and Historic point of view which makes it imperative that every Federating Unit must have its enforecement unit (Police) trained according to its laws and regulations, given that the practices and even laws in the Federating Units are not the same.

This, for me, is a matter of training and residence and does not invoke the indigene/ settler dichotomy.

Now, I mentioned, (although I note that it is time past for main arguments) that I wished to introduce some judicial issue. In order not to offend the debate process, I will not do so in extensio, I will only ask the question: How can you have a State Judiciary, a State Department of Public Prosecutions, etc (which we currently have) without the requisite enforcement departments – i.e – Police?

Katsumoto: DeepSight
Given that the central plank of your argument rests on the inappropriateness of the political structure in Nigeria (Centralist Vs. True federalism), how do you hope to implement State Police within the current structure without introducing significant additional problems?

I think I made some suggestions in my post above - - - >

Deep Sight: I say this because regional/ state policing is not a new animal or a strange concept in Federal Democracies across the world and there are well established protocols to be borrowed from if necessary (just as we borrowed our entire presidential system from the United States) in terms of setting clear distinctions of the jurisdictional competence of respective law enforcement agencies. Now this is with respective to legal issues alone: and I say straight away that this is a matter which can be very easily set forth in terms of the enabling laws for regional policing in the first place.

In the United States, although every state has its own Police force, there remains the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and there are clear protocols and regulations governing the jurisdictional competence of the Federal Law Enforcement as well as those of the regions.

Nevertheless, I must point out that the core of this particular objection is not legal; it is rather political: namely the fear the rival politicians may utilize their police forces as instruments of intimidation and coercion against political enemies.

In response to this, I say that a proper legal framework is sufficient to deal with this. All that is required is that the respective regional police forces are sufficiently insulated from individual political control through the establishment of a process for Police appointments and Disengagements through the Police Service Commission, which may be appointed, say, by the House of Assembly of State and the Judicial Service Commission.

This, I must point out, is critical, regardless of whether State Police is implemented or not: there remains a necessity to insulate the Police from Individual Political control in the same way as the INEC, the EFCC, and the CBN should be isolated from individual political control to prevent abuse of power.

As such, in re-evolving regional policing in Nigeria, only a little thinking is required to deal with the possibility of conflict and abuse of powers.

[quote author=Sisi_Kill]TO ALL
Can you please define clearly your understanding of STATE POLICE? Do you define it by GEOGRAPHY or ETHNICITY?

To Deep Sight, you wrote - that are properly empowered to pursue an internal security policy unique and suitable to their culture, linguistics and ethnic as well as social identity.

Are you of the opinion that crime and punishment differ ethnically and culturally? That A Hausa man theft of goats is different from a Yoruba man's theft of the same thing? That how one person is punished should be different from another because of his tribe? And Security - How can that be made to order? I guess your use of the word UNIQUE and SUITABLE is throwing me off a little.[/quote]Again: for example, in the USA, the Death Penalty does not operate in all states. This has ramifications for the training of a Police Officer in terms of dealing with a potential escappee who may have committed a capital offence.

[quote author=Sisi_Kill]TO ALL
Can you please define clearly your understanding of STATE POLICE? Do you define it by GEOGRAPHY or ETHNICITY?

To Deep Sight, you wrote - that are properly empowered to pursue an internal security policy unique and suitable to their culture, linguistics and ethnic as well as social identity.

Are you of the opinion that crime and punishment differ ethnically and culturally? That A Hausa man theft of goats is different from a Yoruba man's theft of the same thing? That how one person is punished should be different from another because of his tribe? And Security - How can that be made to order? I guess your use of the word UNIQUE and SUITABLE is throwing me off a little.[/quote]Thanks for this question.

Under the current laws in some states of the North, I should be flooged about a 100 times because as I post, i am nursing a bottle of big stout.

Do you think that it is proper to randomly post police officers across areas of different laws and criminal understanding since that is the case?

I only use this as an example: as far as I am personally concerned, extending Shariah Law to criminal Law is unconstitutional in Secular Nigeria.

Nevertheless this example is suitable to show that it is important that the Police Institution in every location is unique since, the laws being implemented are not always the same.

eGuerrilla: @Deepsight,
The central plank of your argument for the introduction of police forces at state level is predicated on "our cultural and linguistic differences".
Why do you think the outcomes derived from the Nigerian experiment are so different from Tanzania's?

Becuase of the fact that our supposed Federalism derives from such, as explained.

I might add to this the simple fact that in terms of Crime, there are different codes for the North and South, and this is the current legal reality in Nigeria. The Southern States operate the Criminal Code while the Northern State operate the Penal Code in addittion to Sharia Law.

Now how do you expect a Police office who has been arressting people based on the Penal Code to be instantly re deplyed - without and re-training or induction classes - to the South, and have a situation where he will not make false arrests?

I should mention that this is why we have from time to time had some Northern Commissioner's of Police in Lagos who have sought to arrest women for skimpy dressing or wearing jeans.

This ridiculous fact alone seals the argument.

Obinoscopy: Mr Deep Sight, this question is for you: you mentioned in your presentation of the activity of what you branded ‘virtual State Police’ in the form of the Hisbah as well as the OPC vigilante groups which are well known in the West. Don’t you think that the creation of state police will further legalise and constitutionalise the possibly brutalities that could be carried out by these bodies?

Like legalizing prostitution or marijuana, you get to control and regiment in proper fashion, something that is currently expressing itself anyway, out of hand: as opposed to giving it free reign into anarchy.

I will now proceed to deal with what I consider (as laid out in my previous posts) could form the only reasonable and logical objections to regional policing in Nigeria today - - - >

1. Abuse of Power – namely that the State Chief Executives may abuse their authority with respect to the command of the Police Institutions.

With respect to this issue, I must ask the question: where is there greater likelihood of abuse – in a situation whereby one person – i.e: the president – subsumes all policing powers – or a situation such as that which is herewith recommended: namely that policing powers are devolved amongst constituent units?

Which scenario provides for checks and balances?

I don’t think I need to answer that question: the answer is self evident!

In any scenario in which we may raise the question of abuse of powers: that danger is only amplified where the policing powers of the Federation are subsumed in one human being only: as obtains currently: the President.

From a dialectic point of view thus; this could not possibly form an argument against regional policing because it rather points in favor of regional policing to the extent that it reduces the extent and possibility of the abuse of power by devolving the policing powers of the Federation amongst constituent units.

As things are: the President may singularly, and according to his whims and caprices inflict grave damage on any Government within the Federation in the exercise of this power alone. We may recall in this regard the following incidents which occurred during the Obasanjo Presidency –

- The abduction of a sitting Governor of a State (Chris Ngige) in the presence of Federal Police – which was clearly conducted by Politicians affiliated with the Presidency

- The removal of Governors of States under Declarations of State of Emergency – even where the Constitution does not provide that the declaration of a State of Emergency should lead to the removal, even if temporary, of a Governor

- The unilateral appointment of Administrators of such states by the President – under a Federal Democracy!

These are only a few incidents which make it manifest that the concentration of Policing powers of the Federation in one man alone, presents a far greater risk of abuse of power than the scenario of Regional Policing.

2. Conflict of Power – namely that there could be potential competition and conflict in exercise of powers in political circles via the agency of Police Institutions.

Now with respect to this issue, I will have to say that the only problem I see is that of a complete lack of exposure and imagination on the part of the Nigerian establishment: or else’ a deliberate dishonesty of purpose with a view to consistently centralizing power.

I say this because regional/ state policing is not a new animal or a strange concept in Federal Democracies across the world and there are well established protocols to be borrowed from if necessary (just as we borrowed our entire presidential system from the United States) in terms of setting clear distinctions of the jurisdictional competence of respective law enforcement agencies. Now this is with respective to legal issues alone: and I say straight away that this is a matter which can be very easily set forth in terms of the enabling laws for regional policing in the first place.

In the United States, although every state has its own Police force, there remains the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and there are clear protocols and regulations governing the jurisdictional competence of the Federal Law Enforcement as well as those of the regions.

Nevertheless, I must point out that the core of this particular objection is not legal; it is rather political: namely the fear the rival politicians may utilize their police forces as instruments of intimidation and coercion against political enemies.

In response to this, I say that a proper legal framework is sufficient to deal with this. All that is required is that the respective regional police forces are sufficiently insulated from individual political control through the establishment of a process for Police appointments and Disengagements through the Police Service Commission, which may be appointed, say, by the House of Assembly of State and the Judicial Service Commission.

This, I must point out, is critical, regardless of whether State Police is implemented or not: there remains a necessity to insulate the Police from Individual Political control in the same way as the INEC, the EFCC, and the CBN should be isolated from individual political control to prevent abuse of power.

As such, in re-evolving regional policing in Nigeria, only a little thinking is required to deal with the possibility of conflict and abuse of powers.

Constitutional Issues

All of the foregoing suggestions need not detract from the supervisory powers of the Governor. These provisions will only serve to ensure that the Governor does not have an over-arching power over the Police Force such that he is able to abuse the institution.

For what reason are Governor’s constitutionally recognized as the Chief Security officers of their states, if they can have no supervision over the Police? They should. And I should mention that in this regard, a Federal High Court has already ruled that the Commissioner of Police of a State should take directives from a State Governor.

This judgment only shows the lacuna in the policing structure set forth in the Nigerian Constitution of 1999.

As I have said, setting in place a process for appointment and removal of Police Officers which is independent of the individual political control of the governor, is hardly rocket science.

3. Fragility and possible Federal Disintegration – namely that the existence of regional Police Forces could form a platform for the evolution of state/ regional armies which may eventually crystallize civil-war or dissolution of the Federal Republic.

I will make only two quick comments on this.

First, if the suggestions made above are adopted, then the possibility of this scenario is mitigated.

Secondly, there are myriad possibilities for dealing with this. Such as a limitation on armaments for State/ Regional Police Institutions. Light armaments could be prescribed, and it is even conceivable to limit such forces to the use of no fire arms – namely the use of objects such as tazers, batons, etc, and perhaps only very light firearms for incidents of armed crime. This could reduce police brutality.

Overall, I need to emphasize that thinking is required; and in so thinking, we can see that there core objections against regional policing and easily be dealt with once we are legally imaginative enough.

In my next post, I shall deal with Judicial Issues.

And so to the core question: Are we ready for it?

I say: why not?

There are only three realistic reasons for which any person may claim that Nigeria is not ready for regional policing and they as follows –

1. Abuse of Power – namely that the State Chief Executives may abuse their authority with respect to the command of the Police Institutions

2. Conflict of Power – namely that there could be potential competition and conflict in exercise of powers in political circles via the agency of Police Institutions.

3. Fragility and possible Federal Disintegration – namely that the existence of regional Police Forces could form a platform for the evolution of state/ regional armies which may eventually crystallize civil-war or dissolution of the Federal Republic.

Given that I have shown the philosophically genuine basis for regional policing, the only questions to be addressed in terms of this discussion are the foregoing. In my next post I shall discuss why these form no reason to dismiss the original policing structure in Nigeria – Regional Policing.

Now proceeding Further.

Having laid forth a philosophic basis for the existence of regional policing in Nigeria, I would like to address the question: are we ready for it?

With respect, I must say that the question in itself looks odd to me! For it places the cart before the horse: in that it makes it appear as though this were a new and previously un-contemplated change which we seek to make - - - whereas, as is the case with the question of derivation and fiscal federalism - - - THIS is rather the ORIGINAL position that Nigeria started with at Independence, which position was violated only and I repeat ONLY by military intervention in the politics of this country.

Now, I should ask the reader: what is the nature of Military rule? It has a command structure. It admits of no deviation from the chain of command. It was thus only natural that the Military aberration in Nigeria would lead to a Unitary System of Government, completely at variance with the position at Independence and completely at variance with the self evident distinctions in genetics, linguistics, culture and social Identity within the Nigerian Space, which, as I earlier pointed out – are distinctions far deeper than those within the whole of Europe ! ! !

The first and initial question thus must be – ”Given that this unitary imposition which arose from the Military aberration in Nigeria is evidently unnatural to Nigeria – nor obtained at independence: why: as in the matter of derivation – must we insist on retaining the aberration?

The historical reasons why we do so: and the subject as to why it is false to claim that we are not ready to change such, will form the subject of my next post.

Hello Everyone,

I would like to commence this discussion with reference to the broad history of mankind – and then a reference to the specific history of Nigeria. The reader might, I very well know, wonder what the broad history of mankind has to do with the topic at hand, but it is actually, the epicenter of the matter.

I am often at a loss as to how desperately lost many Nigerians are – politically – and specifically in terms of key political and constitutional questions – that I am forced to wonder exactly how Nigeria has somehow managed to remain in existence for the period of time that it has. I say this because, all that leads to war is injustice; all that leads to disintegration is imbalance: and all that leads to decay is inertia. My friends, injustice, imbalance and inertia are all very present and alive in Nigeria today. At all events, I must return swiftly to the relevance of the broad history of mankind to the discussion at hand.

Broad History of Mankind - Relevance.

It is today generally accepted scientific thought that mankind originated in Africa, and this is confirmed by the broad tracing of the genetic information amongst the races of mankind. In layman’s terms, it suffices to say that given that the larger portion of mankind’s history was spent in Africa in terms of the early stages of mankind’s development, the genetic information discloses that on account of that origin, history, and greater period of breeding, the peoples on the African Continent have by far the greatest genetic diversity on the face of the Planet.

Before I proceed, I verify this statement from research as follows -
“The research showed that there is more human genetic diversity in Africa than anywhere else on Earth. The genetic structure of Africans was traced to 14 ancestral population clusters and the ancestral origin of humans was determined to probably be located in southern Africa, near the border of Namibia and South Africa.
Human genetic diversity decreases in native populations with migratory distance from Africa and this is thought to be the result of bottlenecks during human migration, which are events that temporarily reduce population size.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_variation

As such, (and although I do not need the foregoing to prove the point – bus specifically use it to avoid dispute) it is evident that Africans are the most genetically differentiated peoples on the planet Earth. This differentiation has extended into culture, language, religion and virtually every aspect of human existence under the sun.
Language, for example. Virtually the whole of Western Europe is tied at the neck in terms of origin of language.

In fact, I make so bold as to say that the principal European languages – French, English, Spanish, and Italian – can all be referred to as different dialects of the same language – LATIN. The significance of this may at first be lost on the inattentive reader. The significance of this is that there is greater linguistic and cultural diversity within the Nigerian Space alone, than there is in the whole of Europe.
And yet, Europe is divided into many nations, and has a history of great wars and divisions.

Returning to the broad history of mankind, what this means is that the European Colonialist in conquering African colonies, merged together swathes of land which were the dwelling places of peoples far more genetically, linguistically and culturally divided than the whole of Europe. Nigeria alone, represents one such case, which discloses a greater ethnic, linguistic, cultural and genetic diversity, than do all the nations of Europe put together.

That is why in terms of countries and languages there is France and French. England and English. Italy and Italian. Spain and Spanish. Portugal and Portuguese. And all of these languages like I earlier said, are derived from Latin, and share most words in common, and seen from the broad perspective of human linguistics, are in fact really merely different dialects of the same old language – Latin.

There is no Nigeria and "Nigerian" – as a language.

It thus emerges the tribes of Nigeria – in their deep seated genetic, cultural and linguistic differences, are wholly nations unto themselves, with distinguishing marks far more deeply seated that that of the entirety of Western Europe.

And it is with this in mind that we must now come to the specific History Nigeria in furthering this discussion.

Specific History of Nigeria – Re: Police.

In recognition of the key distictions within the Nigeria Space, the departing British Colonialists bequeathed a Federal System in which the majority of internal powers rested with the initial three federating units of the North, West and Eastern Regions. In the structure that obtained at Independence, every region had its Independent Police Force and the heads of these Police Forces were responsible to the Premier of the respective region.

Without much ado, I quote as follows –

“The debate on whether or not to have state police has resurfaced and it seems it will not end. Before 1966, each of the four regions — North, Mid-West, West and East — had its own regional police and regional police commissioners. There was also the Nigerian Police Force and of course, Inspector-General of Police.

The regional police commissioners were all under the Premiers of the regions, while the Prime Minister directed the IG. There were areas of conflicts, no doubt, as revealed in Section 106 of the 1963 Constitution. This manifested in the political crisis that later engulfed the western region over who controls the NPF.

Sub-section 3 of Section 106 of 1963 Constitution states that, “the Prime Minister or such other Minister of the Government of the Federation as may be authorized in that behalf by the Prime Minister may give to the Inspector-General of the Nigerian Police such directives with respect to the maintaining and securing of public safety and public order as he may consider necessary and Inspector-General shall comply with those directives or cause them to be complied with.”

Sub-section 4 of the same section 106 further states that, “Subject to the provisions of sub-section (3) of this section, the Commissioner of Police of a Region shall comply with the directives of the Premier of the Region or such other Minister of the Government of the Region as may be authorised in that behalf by the Premier with respect to the maintaining and securing of public safety and public order within the Region or cause them to be complied with.”

http://www.punchng.com/opinion/bye-bye-to-confederation/

The Article in the link above, by Eric Teniola explores in detail how Nigeria gradually evolved from a truly Federal creation into a virtual unity state in terms of the issue of Internal control of the Police. Indeed, the article does conclude against State Police, but I cite it for the purpose of referring to the genuine history of Federal Policing Structure in Nigeria.

The fact is, and remains, that, just as is the case with the question of fiscal Federalism, at Independence, we had a truly Federal system in place in terms of the principle of derivation – just as we had in terms of the Policing Structure which was regional.

And my contention in this discussion is that it must remain regional to the extent that –

1. Our cultural and linguistic differences remain acute especially in a society where predominant swathes of population remain literate only in their native tongues

2. (1) above is understandable in light of the initial point made: to wit: the vast differences that we possess ethnically, linguistically, culturally and genetically.

3. Building on (1) and (2) above, it is inconceivable that we can have the same standards or approaches in terms of crime: this is evidenced by chasms of differences such as the operation of Shariah Law in the North of Nigeria and the activity of what is already virtual State Police in the form of the Hisbah as well as the OPC vigilante groups well known in the West.

4. The groups mentioned in (3) above are unhealthy and unconstitutional developments for the reason that they exist outside the framework of our constitution. Nevertheless, their existence is a pointer to the obvious fact of our key differences in the matter of crime and law, and indeed in all other facets of life.

5. It thus only makes sense that in order to have a proper and meaningful Federation in the right sense of the word, we must have federating units that are properly empowered to pursue an internal security policy unique and suitable to their culture, linguistics and ethnic as well as social identity.

In concluding this post, I would point out that this is exactly why the Federating Units in Nigeria each have their own JUDICIARY – and it is of course preposterous to speak of a Judiciary which has no enforcement unit - to wit – it’s police.

In succeeding posts, will address further issues on the desirability and implementation of State Police. I just wished at the out set to give a broad philosophic outline as to why we must be truly federal in this matter.

Jarus: Oga, this one that you're still about different topic when we have settled for teh topic for over a week now, I hope you know what thsi prograame is about. Pls go through last month's edition to see how it went. This is less than 48 hours to the even when one would thought you had composed your presentation, you are still talking about changing topic.

No wahala sir! No vex o, don't worry I no go mess up.... was only worried about the absence of takers

You could also change the topic to SNC (sovereign national conference) or rotational presidency if that would get more takers?

InesQor: I almost never post outside the religion board but I'll try to be here to watch you do your thing on Saturday

If i'm selected, that is!

Longest time my dear friend, how you dey? Hit me up by email joor. cheers

dayokanu: I am for using Aiyelala to police the states

Lol. I have this friend who always uses this term "aiyelala" as an exclamation. what the hell does it mean? ? ?

Jarus: All those who have expressed interest in this topic should confirm:

1, their intention again and the side they would be arguing
2, that they will be available 6-9pm Nigeria time on Saturday
3, that they have the intellectual capacity to add value and flair to the exercise. We can't afford to have a dull exercise.

Deadline is 5pm Wednesday.

4 debaters, 2 arguing for, 2 arguing against.

Thank you

Confirmed, available.

For State Police.

For SNC.

Any other topics?

O, and having said that, I think the question of zoning/ rotational presidency, would be a real hot topic in naija today. Please consider it as well. Cheers.

Jarus, Jarus, Jarus. How many times did I call you. I am interested in this month's debate. I am for State. Also for a Sovereign National Conference, if that topic is to be considered. At this time of Constitution Amendment, I think its highly topical. Let me know well in advance please, if you do happen to permit me to discuss these topics, so I can make the time. I am very passionate about these.

No sane person can deny that in war, all sides DO commit atrocities.

As such, it is very odd to read a discussion in which attempts are made to deny such.

Atrocities known, and atrocities unknown, no doubt occurred on both sides.

However, in deference to Dede, I must point out that it is of no use discussing atrocities without pointing out the persons who allegedly committed same. I say this not because I do not recognize PhysicQED's point - i do - namely that one cannot expect civilians to recognize specific military insignia - I say this for the simple reason that there is such a thing as a war crime - and needless to say, you cannot be discussing a crime in the absence of any accussed. Even where this is done, it is futile: i.e: there can be no trial. Who is to be tried? It is a perfect waste of time and emotion

The only plausible way to try anyone in such circumstances would be an uphill task: to show first that the crimes occurred and then to hold the living leaders of the accused side personally responsible for a war crime, one would have to also show that they personally authourized such. This is impossible, and for this reason I say that it is futile to attempt to talk about war crimes if one cannot, as Dede said, point a finger at those supposedly responsible.

On the other hand, Dede, for his part, was very specific in naming names and units and brigades involved in the crimes he alleged. That gave his allegations better credibility, and certainly make them prosecutable, as opposed to the futile discussion about crimes in which there is no accused person pointed at.

In my opinion, Physics QED did a great job of dismantling Dede's contention that civilians ought to recognize military insignia, for which Dede had no response, but persons who think that he thereby held the day are simply not clued on to the precise nature of proper debates. As I have said, Dede's contention that it is useless to refer to crimes without mentioning an accused remains very valid: and may I just point out that I AM NOT thus saying that the crimes did not occur, or are not tragic: I am only saying that it is futile to discuss such. Who would you try for such crimes, if they occurred? Ghosts?

Obinoscopy: How about the second debate topic? I'm thinking of 'State Creation' - for or against?

AGAINST O!

Odunnu: I bet he had me in mind describing his 'goods'.

Surely, you're teasing me. Please be careful o, because I am desperate for anyone who fits the bill as I described.

For him,
I dont even mind being described as 'property' or even 'customised car'

Lol.