₦airaland Forum

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=426896.msg5864161#msg5864161 date=1270859287]^^ can you also control the attitudes of the person or people she'll be having intimacy with?[/quote]You cannot control such even within a marriage.

noetic16:
I left the poser for u to decide. Is Jesus omni-present?. . . . .

I am unable to see how or why a mere mortal man like Jesus of Nazareth could be described as omnipresent.

Are you omnipresent? ? ?

If not, then why should a Jewish Rabbi be described as omnipresent. Do such comments not reek of a slight instability which might require expert attention from persons trained in neurology and other associated sciences?

I am at odds that a man of your profound spirituality and intellect cannot see the comedy of the claim that Mr. Jesus is almighty God.

You severely dishonour and blaspheme the primordial Godhead by equating mere mortals to God.

Quote from Purist -

This particular case of God hardening Pharaoh's heart is one that I have special interest in, and is usually my number one reference in the freewill argument (Deep Sight beat me to it). In fact, it transcends just freewill alone, and also puts to question, the morality of Yahweh. Why would an all-loving God choose to harden someone's heart, thereby leading them to their destruction, when softening their heart would yield the same desired result (letting His people go), while at the same time, possibly bringing the Pharaoh to salvation? Well, let's leave that for now. Freewill.

God hardening Pharaoh's heart may not have been against Pharaoh's will as you said (actually, it WAS against his will. . . no one likes to be manipulated), but it completely ruled out any and every probable iota of possibility of the Pharaoh having a change of heart. That is, the Pharaoh was now completely left with absolutely NO choice but to go on keeping the people of Israel captive. His freewill (to decide otherwise) had been taken from him.

Indeed for me this highlights the many redoubtable contradictions and internal inconsistencies of the concept of God advanced by the Bible.

For me the biblical God seems to operate very often like an extremely sinister pagan cultist or occultic deity. He is highly partisan, and often issues injunctions to genocide and grossly unjustifiable slaughter. Suddenly in the NT he seems to repent of his old ways and commands love and pacifism - while retaining the discretiuon to predestinate salvation or damnation.

I doubt that a proper answer to the questions raised by this thread can be presented in terms of the idea of God advanced within the Bible.

It is a contradictory concept of God - one that does no justice to the idea that God is perfect or even remotely moral.

The idea of God advanced within the Grail NMessage and as elucidated by M_Nwankwo above seems much more at home with truth and presents satisfying answers to these posers.

^^^ Because as Malbron has noted these verses within the Bible very very strongly assert absolute predestination of all things by God himself. . .

"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9

"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=428003.msg5865379#msg5865379 date=1270895369]Hi Deepsight. How are you? Hope you are kool. Pre-destination and free will are compatible. Indeed what people regard as pre-destination is the reciprocal actions arising from their free choices in the past or even in the present. The seeming contradiction arises because the recipient of the blessing or misfortune is not conscious of the chain of choices as well as the travel of these choices through both the visible and invisible worlds of God. Hence since he is unaware of the choices that resulted in the blessings or misfortune, he regards it as arbitrarily and thus predetermined by a source independent of himself. But what I said above is just a scratch at the surface. A deeper insight is only possible if we know the origin of free will. Free will resides in the spirit, it is an inherent characteristic of the spirit and it is an ability given by God to the human spirit for his development and maturity. Free will simply means the choice to choose but once a choice is made, the man is irrevocably bound to the consequences of his decision for only through tasting the consequences of his decision will he recognize whether they are good or evil and adjust himself accordingly. Thus God gave man the absolute freedom to use his free will to raise himself to the kingdom of God or dig his grave into the kingdom of darkness. The free will is so free that man can and indeed uses it to oppose God and his will. Now the actions and events which are physically visible are only the after effects of a spiritual decision and it is the spiritual decisions which can draw on the neutral power of God vibrating in creation to bring about forms, first intuitive forms, motive forms, imagination, thoughts, words and then the physical action. These various forms are linked to there producer and then to gigantic masses of similar forms in various planes of creations. In other words the forms I mentioned above are connected to power centers from which the draw homogeneous strength. Thus envy, lust, gossip, slander and similar things have power centers  and so do love, compassion, purity, heroism. It is these forms that is the tapestry of mans fate and determines what returns to him as blessing or curse according to the laws of God. Every second, man exercise his free will and thus new threads are constantly added to his tapestry of fate and thus altering the outcome. If one looks deeply to what is said above then it will be clear that if a man indulges in one passion or the other, let us say envy, he is surrounded by envy and connected to massive power centers of envy such that it is very easy for one who can survey these connections to prophesy that acts of envy will spring forth from this man 100 years from now, or even in a future incarnation on earth. But as I said new threads are constantly added that change the colour of the outcome, mitigate or even in some cases abrogate it.  Let us take a man who 2000 years ago mocked and laughed at the son of God as he was being crucified. The threads of fate are knotted that some where in subsahara Africa, this man reincarnates completely oblivious of what happened 2000 years. A consequence of this personal mockery or inward satisfaction at the physical suffering of son of God is that at 30 years of age, the man will suddenly develop the wound marks of stigmata and experience the events of 2000 YEARS. If such a man have not inwardly changed since then but relishes in the suffering of others, then certainly at 30 YEARS, he will develop genuine stigmata that defies all medical treatment. But it may well happen that in the course of 2000 YEARS prior to his reincarnation as a west African, this man has inwardly changed and may have even recognized his personal evil and instead of hate, he has love. Then the rays of love will be added to his tapestry of fate and the power of love can mitigate or abrogate the appearance of stigmata. The spiritual currents retuning stigmata to him will surely come but they meet a man who is no more evil but pure and thus cannot penetrate, this stigmata currents will only be repelled back to the homogeneous centre without the man being harmed. Instead, an apparently symbolic action will happen which he is not conscious of in the earthly sense. Thus at his 30TH birthday, spiritual guidance of which he is unaware in the physical sense will guide him to visit the trauma section in a hospital to donate a pant of blood or give help to a neighbor etc. These apparently meaningless symbolic activity severs completely the knot of the stigmata currents and such a man is redeemed. Thus what would have severed the head of one may just remove his cap, or a tragic accident that may have killed may simply manifest as a burst tyre or simply a help to a fellow driver who is stranded on the road. Such is the incomprehensible love of God which allows humans to raise themselves back to the kingdom of God even when they are buried in the deepest darkness. This earth life is just almost an infinitesimal but important spot in our existence and only very little snapshots of the consequences of our free will are evident, hence the dilemma of people on how there can be free will when somethings appear to be predestined. The love and justice of God can only be understood as far as we realize that we have been on earth several times and also lived several times in the so called beyond and that what happens to us takes into account our entire existence and not just what we are physically conscious in this present incarnation. Reincarnation is essential to understanding the working of God in his Justice and Love. Indeed there is predestination but not by God or other creatures but by man himself using the power of God through the exercise of his free willl. Because we use the power of God, we get blessing and resurrection to the kingdom of God if we apply it to pure channels but if we abuse this power of God and draw it into impure purposes, we will finally lose the ability to draw on the power of God and thus cease to exist as a conscious being. Man has the key to this power of God but this power of God is not in man himself as many mystics or occultists seem to think because they do see only the effects but not the source of the effects. This key to open or unlock  the power of God is the free will. In addition, this power of God is neutral but the application of it to good or evil "creations" is dependent on the free will. If this power of God is applied purely, then it is reinvigorated and by a process of radiation cycling moves hiigher and higher even right to the kingdom of God, thus forming an invisible flight of steps drawing the human wanderer back to the kingdom of God. If however this power of God is applied for impure purposes, the union destroys itself releasing the entrapped neutral power and in the destruction, the originator man is also destroyed in the process. This explain while in the end the good will always triumph over evil and the supreme will of God reigns. The apparent battle between good and evil is only in the interval between the beginning and the end. The same explanation that applies to individuals can also be used to throw light into group karma, national karma, prophecies and indeed cosmic events. Stay blessed.[/quote]This is so ever deeply satisfying.

I thank you for this. . .

Might I ask if it is fair to to say that the Bible and perhaps other writings such as the Quoran contain limited or outrightly incorrect premises regarding this matter: often making it appear as though God Almighty deliberately predestines certain things for men?

Please no be today.

The resurrection is YOUR myth and not my baggage.

And it springs directly from your imagination that that fellow is the Creator of the Universe.

Odd, aren't you?

1. Was Jesus still omnipresent while he was in his physical body on Earth?

You stated - "The physical entity who died on the cross is Jesus." -

Was he omnipresent whilst dying on the cross?

If not, did he cease to be the Holy Spirit for a time? ? ?

2. You stated - "The God he prayed to is called the Father"

- Does God pray to himself?

- How could he be the Father when he expressly stated that there are things he does not know - whereas God the Father is said to be omniscient?

- Did he lose his omniscience at any point?

^^^ Maybe because you have a video tape of his resurection? ? ?

away4real:
@ Deepsight, I have one question for you and please do be honest.

At what age would you want your daughter to engage sexually? and would it be in several relationships with a woman, a man or with both.

I will be perfectly honest.

1. Once she attains the legal age of consent she is mature enough.

2. I will be sure to raise her to chose to be with a responsible gentleman.

3. I would raise her to decide these matters with a balanced sense of natural instinct, caution, responsibility and spiritual unction.

Once she attains the age of legal consent, the mere fact of having se.x will never by itself be considred a crime in my household.

I would also expect her mother to weigh in with sound se.xua.l education from a woman's perspective.

^^^ This has nothing to do with belief in the gospel.

I am genuienley trying to understand predestination and freewill.

Do you believe in predestination?

davidylan:
What a disgusting piece of work you are.

Smile. Life is beautiful.

Jesus never affirmed you as a "god" . . . read properly before misinforming others - John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

And who wrote the law? I thought it was inspired by God? Are there parts of the bible that are not inspired by God?

Ha.

if the old testament scriptures recorded that "ye are Gods" . . . and you were fully ok with that why then do you want to stone me for making exactly the same claim?

Exactly.

Now lets go back to the psalm Christ was quoting . . . Ps. 82:6[b] I have said, Ye are gods[/b]; and all of you are children of the most High.

But was God saying we are "divine gods" to ourselves here? Well then read the very next verse - 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Did Christ himself not die like a man?

Did that stop you from calling him God?

How can you be a "god" and then "die like men"? Is that not a blatant contradiction?

oooo la la l a. . . this is delicious. . . where is Abuzola - you have finally come round to see his long standing point about the death of Jesus disqualifying him from Divinity!

Thanks David.

But there is a host of scripture that makes it plain that God does actually predestinate certain things - These are just two that come to mind -

“The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; / he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases” (Proverbs 21:1).

“The word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, / before you were born I set you apart; / I appointed you as a prophet to the nations’” (Jeremiah 1:4-5).

There are others. What freewill did Pharoah have when God was "hardening his heart?"

Clearly, God had determined the way certain people would act beforehand, and he did so in his sovereignty as God.

Now if this is the case, what freewill really exists?

But the real question is this - Is pre-destination real? If it is real, how does it work out with Freewill?

davidylan:
. . . and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.[/color]

It is amazing how close the Satan's ideas are to Jesus' ideas. Because Jesus himself affirmed men as gods, no?

davidylan:
the answer to your question in highlights = Yes.

The betrayal was not absolutely necessary to bring about the will of God . . . without Judas, Christ would still have died on the cross.

That is fine and well understood David.

But then factor the fact of its prediction into the equation.

Could we say it was merely knowledge of what Judas would use his freewill to do -

Or given the will of God that such would happen to Jesus. . . was it something already sealed?

I don't know, I am just asking.

But the real question is this - Is pre-destination real? If it is real, how does it work out with Freewill?

Was Judas predestined to do what he did?

Quote from Noetic -

I would like to open a new thread to in the very least attempt to explain the concept of freewill and predestination from God's perspective (with regards to my understanding) . . . .and would like u to also highlight any posers/discrepiances that u might find disturbing in the bible.

There. I've done it for you. Oya fire.

For other readers the issue is the compatibility of the doctrines of Free Will and Pre-destination.

We can perhaps use Judas Iscariot as an example.

Did he have free will?

Was he excercising free will in betraying Jesus?

How so, since the betrayal was necessary to bring about the already predicted will of the omnipotent Father? Could he really have excercised his "free will" and refused to betray Jesus - thereby scuttling the plans of the Omnipotent Father?

I am really interested in this cos its an area that confuses me.

I believe in some level of destiny myself.

If that's the case has the script of my life already been written?

Am i just going through the motions and imagining myself free?

Now this one, the Divine Emperor of Japan, was forced to renounce. . .but -

On August 15, 1945, following the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the entry of Russia into the war against Japan, Hirohito made the radio broadcast announcing the unconditional surrender of Japan's military forces (known as Gyokuon-housou). Despite pressures to try him for war crimes by numerous leaders, among them President Harry S. Truman, US General Douglas MacArthur insisted that Hirohito remain Emperor to keep him as a symbol of continuity and cohesion of the Japanese people. Hirohito was spared trial and retained the throne, but Hirohito was forced to explicitly reject the traditional claim that the Emperor of Japan was divine; a descendant of the Sun Goddess. The imperial title was thus transformed from 'imperial sovereign' to 'constitutional monarch' in 1946. It should, however, be noted that immediately after this explicit repudiation of divinity, he implicitly reaffirmed it by asking the occupation authorities for permission to worship an ancestress and then worshipping the Sun Goddess; this reaffirmation would have been comprehensible to all Japanese though not necessarily by the occupation authorities.

No o o. . .Olumba is still God Almighty. . .o

^^^ That is beside the point so long as -

1. It is accepted that it also acts as a singular noun in the Torah and crucially -

2. When it appears as such, it is then understood to denote the single God of Israel.

This is clear. No argument.

But by the way -

Have you ever heard of the plural of royalty? Maybe the Queen of England, who is addressed as "they" "we" and "us" is also a Trinity?

^^^ Exactly! Hallelujah!

I insist that you did NOT read it or i would not have to post these parts of it again -

[size=14pt]In the Torah, the word sometimes acts as a singular noun in Hebrew grammar, and is then generally understood to denote the single God of Israel,[/size]

Claims to Divinity everywhere!

Ain't it exciting?

Check out this one -

http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/doss2claims.htm

When you open the page, click on the arrow that points right and read the next two pages of the slide show.

^^^ I am going to presume you did not read the quote from wikipedia above at all.

When you read it, revert to me.

_{I am reading Psalm 22.}

Yawn.

We have just proven that people taking the bible seriously proves and shows nothing.

99% of humanity are a herd of cows in spiritual matters.

Well, you folks are not alone in this business -

http://www.jagatgururampalji.org/photogallery2.html

viaro:
You would be surprised the number of people who take the Bible seriously

You would be surprised the number of brilliant people and brilliant scientists who as Hindus, take belief in the divinity of cows seriously.

You would also be surprised that brilliant people have lived in all cultures throughout the ages and have accepted all sorts of pagan doctrines as inviolable truth.

Brilliance, Viaro?

Ha.

^^^ Here's your answer -

Wikepedia on the word "Elohim" -

Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity or deity, notably used as a name of God in Judaism. It is apparently related to the Northwest Semitic word ʾēl (אֱל) "god". Within Hebrew, it is morphologically a plural, in use both as a true plural with the meaning "angels, gods, rulers" and as a "plural intensive" with singular meaning, referring to a god or goddess, and especially to the single God of Israel. The associated singular Eloah (אלוה) occurs only in poetry and in late Biblical Hebrew, in imitation of Aramaic usage.[1]

In the Torah, the word sometimes acts as a singular noun in Hebrew grammar, and is then generally understood to denote the single God of Israel, while in other cases, it acts as an ordinary plural and refers to the polytheistic notion of multiple gods (see Sons of God).

Well if your Bible teaches you such things as material bodies rising to reside bodily and materially in immaterial and intangible realms (a proposition no serious thinker would countenance), then you will have to understand why I am not able to take your book of myths any more seriously than an edition of Sesame Street.

Its that simple.

As for the God preached by the bible, he has always been distinctly single -

"Hear o Israel, the Lord our God is one God" - Deut. 6:4.

^^^ It is telling that pagans believed such long before it was suddenly imported into Christianity, no?

WHERE in the bible is there even a faint suggestion of ANY Triad?

SHOW ME.

That it was not there is what inspired the fraud in 1 Jn. 5 v 7 KJV which has since been removed.