₦airaland Forum

Joker. go debate nursery school kids, not me.

You statements are most clear.

You state clearly that Jesus is God. Thus what is the difference between these two statements -

1. Jesus rose to heaven in his physical body

2. God rose to heaven in his physical body.

Your STATEMENT THAT GOD ROSE TO HEAVEN IN A PHYSICAL BODY IS MOST CLEAR.

Laugh it off, Viaro - tight corners dont feel good do they?

MyJoe:
Deep Sight has asked this very important question of many Christians in this forum, but I must say this is by far the best reasoned and thought-out response I have read so far. Thanks, InesQor.

But as an aside and at the risk of sounding like a contrarian, I must add that I find the level of endorsement Deep Sight has conferred on products of liberalist hagiography like Mohandas Gandhi a bit bewildering. Most people I know take it from what they hear that these (add Abraham Lincoln and Kwame Nkrumah, among others, to the list) are “great men”. There are songs, books, and Hollywood movies, all in the service of revisionism. But Deep Sight is not “most people”. If a new universe was discovered at 4am tomorrow morning, Deep Sight would give you precise details of its inner workings by 5am. That is why I find this whole Ghandi business surprising. But, of course, we may have different standards for beatification and he may know things I don’t.

@  Myjoe –

I strongly urge you to study the life, times and passions of Mr. Ghandi.

Here are a few of his sounbites -

“In the attitude of silence the soul finds the path in a clearer light, and what is elusive and deceptive resolves itself into crystal clearness. Our life is a long and arduous quest after Truth.” - Mahatma Gandhi

“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.”  - Mahatma Gandhi

“An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.” - Mahatma Gandhi

“Always aim at complete harmony of thought and word and deed. Always aim at purifying your thoughts and everything will be well.”  - Mahatma Gandhi

“It is beyond my power to induce in you a belief in God. There are certain things which are self proved and certain which are not proved at all. The existence of God is like a geometrical axiom. It may be beyond our heart grasp. I shall not talk of an intellectual grasp. Intellectual attempts are more or less failures, as a rational explanation cannot give you the faith in a living God. For it is a thing beyond the grasp of reason. It transcends reason. There are numerous phenomena from which you can reason out the existence of God, but I shall not insult your intelligence by offering you a rational explanation of that type. I would have you brush aside all rational explanations and begin with a simple childlike faith in God. If I exist, God exists. With me it is a necessity of my being as it is with millions. They may not be able to talk about it, but from their life you can see that it is a part of their life. I am only asking you to restore the belief that has been undermined. In order to do so, you have to unlearn a lot of literature that dazzles your intelligence and throws you off your feet. Start with the faith which is also a token of humility and an admission that we know nothing, that we are less than atoms in this universe.” – Mahatma Ghandi

“I worship God as Truth only. I have not yet found Him, but I am seeking after Him.”  - An Autobiography (1936); also in All Men Are Brothers : Autobiographical Reflections (2005) edited by Krishna Kripalani, p. 63

“Truth alone will endure, all the rest will be swept away before the tide of time.” – Mahatma Ghandi

“We need to be the change we wish to see in the world.” – Mahatma Ghandi

When Christians like Noetic assert that Ghandi is going to hell, or Inesqor imagines that since he knew and understood Christ but never accepted Christian dogma – then he is not saved. . .

I can only utter a silent prayer that they themselves ever attain the spiritual height and development of an advanced and blessed human soul like Mahatma Ghandi.

Ants assessing an elephant.

Inesqor –

I am at odds when you speak about “having heard and understood the person of Christ and still rejecting his deity and sacrifice.”

I positively assert that there is enough reason within the Bible itself to suppose that the questions of his deity or sacrifice are totally irrelevant to salvation.

Indeed what is relevant is the disposition within the heart, and also the “deeds” of each man.

The bible supports this -

From the first letter of John chapter 2 verses 3 and 4.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Another translation renders it thus -

3[b]We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s loveb is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.[/b]

Thus showing that the Christ-like life of love and brotherhood is what is required for salvation.

Furthermore there is great emphasis to be placed on this -

Acts 10:34 - 35: "Of a truth i perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. . ."

Let's not forget the full context of that verse. Cornelius was a gentile, a roman whose prayers, kindness and service to the poor went up to God in simple purity. He had no knowledge of Christian or even Jewish theology. – [I]Quote from Pastor AIO[/I]

Furthermore lets have a look at this -

Revelation 20:11-13:
The Final Judgment
11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

The foregoing is painfully clear that each person will be judged on the basis of their deeds.

An acknowledgement of Mr. Jesus from Nazareth is thus devastatingly beside the point.

Again have a look here -

Matthew 25:31-40:

The Final Judgment
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was unclothed, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or unclothed and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’

I cannot go on.

It is vitally clear that each human spirit shall account for his own deeds, his state of heart, and this actions to his fellow man.

I cannot emphasize the point enough – “rejecting Jesus Deity or sacrifice” are items that pale into pagan insignificance beside the eternal truths cited above.

Gracias.

Great observation Jagun.

So sad KAG never came back to deal with this thread.

jagunlabi:
. . . hotblooded guys like me would've hung around christianity to worship the living daylight off the divine chica, provided she is as goodlooking as her big brother. This is trying to answer the question in another thread on why more women go to church than men, making them more religious.

Is it a wonder then that so many women are christians? With the son of yahweh looking so handsome and dashing, and so photogenic, or maybe i should say, "portraygenic", the population of women worshippers has always been guaranteed to be high. If jesus return to earth now, im go nack taya! . . .

If only jesus had had a sister, i would've had the posters of the sexy begotten daughter plastered all over my abode, my vehicle, my place of work, my T-shirts, tattooed the image of the begotten babe all over my body, and fantasize over her every night. What would she have been named? Justina Christ, most preferably to match the name of big brother.

But as things stand, only christian babes can do all the fantasizing with the posters of jesus "prettyface" christ.

Too bad yahweh never deemed it fit to have had a begotten daughter. So, what are you guys still doing in a religion with no feminine side for us guys to oggle? What are you doing with a male god with no wife, no daughter, nothing. Na only bone to bone! C'mon guys, let us all go and worship godesses Athena or Diana. Those babes are more than seksy . . . If we have to worship somebody, atleast let us worship some beautiful and voluptuous divine wench.

The grim reality is that we are saddled with a male God and his male child (who must be worshipped) simply because the judaic society that gave birth to these myths was male dominated.

Simple.

No other reason.

Marlbron:
Read through all of this. Why young men do these arguments end up in flames/IS it a question of ego?

Noetic v Viaro

Noetic concludes that even though it is stated that Elijah went to heaven, the evidence of Jesus from a recent testament counters that, plus the fact that there are many heavens. Which heaven did he go to? Certainly not the one Jesus came from! Why is it a big deal to understand this, Viaro? Seriously this is what I take out from this.


Viaro v Deepsight

Deepsight has made straitfoward deductions from your statements, like a lawyer in a court, and he is right. Your understanding of scripture is the problem here. Let us examine the situation of Christ. he was taken up towards heaven and a cloud receive him from their sight, Now, none of us can say for certain if he went with his body after the cloud receives him. We can only conclude that in heaven, God will look like an angel being, and on earth, he will exist as man. Ditto for Enoch and Elijah, the writers saw them taken up, but after they disappeared, they will most likely be tramslated from their pysical being to spiritual being. There is no material address in the sky called heaven. Do not take Bibilical words carnally. Let me give you another example. Christ said he came down from heaven;

Does it mean he flew with a chariout down to earth?
Does it mean he flew down from heaven by himself?


I think it is a spiritual event.

When it is written that the trumpet will sound, a carnal understanding will take it to mean that some angels will stay afloat in the sky with trumpets sounding all over the earth. Is this not the work and understanding of false religion?

I really would have thought that it should be clear for him to see and it saddens me that Viaro of all people would possess such a physical reading of a spiritual matter.

These huxley's threads sha.

Notice this:
1. neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
2. no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
He very well claimed ontological oneness! Jesus was direct in his claims, yet you choose not to see it.

Excuse me sir: this is vacuous.

Any authourity who is representative of another authourity can speak like this, for crying out loud.

Just as an ambassador can speak about "his" Government.

Notwithstanding that he merely represents the President, who actually holds the Government.

Come on! ! !

Jesus states that he has been GIVEN all power in heaven and on Earth.

WHO GAVE it to him? The air? Please.

Revelation states that he sits on the right hand side . . .

OF WHOM? ? ?

Sango? ? ?

Come on giuys. This thing is clear.

@ Alethiea -

I do not know what your own understanding of an eternal being is.

But in my view there are many embodiments of the self-existent nature of God that are eternal.

I have often argued on this forum that darkness is perforce eternal.

That does not make Darkness God.

@ Jesoul - YES I POSITIVELY CONTEND THAT THE WRITERS OF THE NT WERE INFLUENCED BY DEIFICATION AND HERO WORSHIP OF JESUS.

I hope you are aware that the NT Gospels were not written by the apostles but ascribed to them.

If you will check out Jesus' OWN statements which i quoted above you will see that NO WAY did he regard himself as God.

Why are you so willing to IGNORE his own statements?

JeSoul:
I don't even need to add anything, aletheia you have gone where I was going to go and done way better.

Oga Deepsight, don't you see how this is coming off?

-you say the gospel of John has been corrupted.

-but yet you quote from it when it supports your position

-but when it is quoted where is contradicts your belief, it should be taken with a grain of salt

so in essence, we should only read the entire bible literally where it suits you? and dismiss the other parts that don't as corrupted or symbolic? dude, like seriously?

Astonishing. Do you really mean to take the understanding of the Jews over Jesus' own explanation of his unity with the father?

Here is Jesus' own explanation for the umpteenth time -

John 17:20-23: “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”

Seriously babe? ? ?

Please Olaadegbu, I am tired of these cartoons. They give a puerile feel to an otherwise academic affair.

Kindly desist.

Thanks.

@ Mazaje -

I have often put the question to you and you have persistently skillfully evaded it.

In all your submissions you constantly refer to "the gods of man made religions" - and you declare such to be myths.

In fact I have always noted that you are CONSTANTLY VERY CAREFUL never to simply state - "God does not exist" - but rather - you always state that "the gods of man made religions do not exist."

I think that is worthy of note. I firmly agree with you on that.

However your careful qualification suggests that you believe that there is actually a real GOD, a real and trancendental creator whom mankind may know nothing about. As opposed to "the gods of man made religions."

Please answer honestly for me.

And please I already know about the "gods of man made religions" so no need to repeat that to me.

Just tell me if you think that outside mankind's perceptions and religious fantasies, could there be, or is there likely to be an unknown supreme creator?"

Thanks.

^^^ Noetic, dyu belive in extra terrestial intelligence?

That there could be other beings like us living in other reaches of the universe?

Dyu think they would be required to beleive in Jesus of Nazareth?

huxley:
How long did God exist before he decided to create the universe? Some notions of God hold that God does not change. If this is true, then deciding to create the universe constitutes a change, because God's state of mind prior to and after he created the universe must have undergone some change.

Can there be change without the notion of time?

Has it occurred to you that perhaps God has always been creating eternally?

Why assume that this universe is all that exists?

But i will issue here a stern warning never to wash our dirty coal pot in the open internet.

Does it not count that it was anonymous?

Seemed like it was the guy who came and spilled their identities.

Might I also ask -

1. If it is possible for one who accepts christ's deity and sacrifice to simultaenously in his heart and by his actions "reject christ."

2. If it is possible for one who rejects christs's deity and sacrifice to simultaenously in his heart and by his actions "accept Christ."

Thank you.

Hi Inesqor.

Thanks for your time.

Might i ask what it takes to "reject Christ?"

Is it a rejection of -

1. The notion that he is God or Son of God

2. The notion that he died for our sins

OR -

Is it a rejection of -

The essential teachings of Christ as summarized in the beautitudes.

Thank you.

Wirinet -

Please note carefully the distinction involved here -

Being an ATHEIST DOES NOT INVOLVE MERELY REFUSING TO WORSHIP GOD.

I personally do not believe in conventional notions of worship.

I believe in living life to the fullest in harmony and peace. I regard that as all the worship required.

The issue is not the worship of God but the EXISTENCE of an ULTIMATE UNCAUSED CAUSE called God.

Our assertion is that to be an atheist: namely to deny the EXISTENCE of such a supreme cause is ridiculous -

. . .Because the reverse simply means that everything sprang suddenly and pointlessly out of nothing.

That, I submit, is worse than magic.

Really, OLAADEGBU, Heaven is a material place?

Na wah.

I fit take Luftansa reach there?

Na wah.

Viaro: "God is in heaven in a Physical Body."

Olaadegbu: "Heaven is a material place."

A STANDING OVATION FOR THESE GUYS PLEASE! ! !

I am very sorry to say what i am about to say.

Apologies in advance to those who I may offend.

BUT ATHEISM IS STUPIDITY.

Frankly, you are a gift. No flattery at all.

Talking with you makes me feel very small.

^^^ Why are you so wonderful?

^^^ When i was a child I carried a bible everywhere.

My family called me "Pastor."

They are at severe pains at my current perspectives.

Wouldn't it be odd if their constant prophecy turned true.

Aite. Am sorry if that was offensive. I was just being rascally.

Ejoo e ma binu.

O come on, Commander.

That was just a sarcastic joke from me!

I thank you Inesqor.

There is much that you have written that is of immense value.

Is there more?

I will like you to be done before I revert with my thoughts.

Cheers.

Really.

^^^ Thank you sir.

I am enriched.

I particularly thank you for not being impatient with me: or tired of my making the same inquiries everytime.

Thank you earnestly again.

^^^ He also regards lying as a sin.

And arrogance - your own weakness David.

So who's judging now?

Ok, o.

I will revert later. But not much as I know i cannot change your mind.

Inesqor?

Over to you.

OLAADEGBU:
and for your information, heaven is a [size=20pt]material[/size] place created by God

OLAAAAAAAAAAADEGBU! ! !

DID YOU REALLY SAY THIS? ? ? ? ?

^^^ But what does it take to be called a follower of Christ, really.

I was of the impression that Christ said that many would be his Sheep without even knowing it.

This suggests that its the heart that counts?

2. Would Ghandi go to Hell?

What choice of words?