₦airaland Forum

debosky:
Hardly - not every creature is meant to procreate or engage in sexual activity.

We are discussing humans.

In any case, this person is not advocating abstinence forever, but simply till certain life long commitments are formalised

Is it not true that that decision is based on the myth that premarital intimacy is evil?

Why would she be holding back pent-up desire for FIVE YEARS?

Does that sound natural TO YOU? ? ?

Like I said, defecating is an imperfect analogy - you do NOT need to engage in intercourse to live, while the lack of discharge of bodily waste will cause the system to break down.

Abstinence will cause the human race to go extinct.

This is going off topic though - the individual is not advocating to not have intercourse ever, but to simply abstain till she feels it is appropriate, hence exercising control rationally.

Is it rational or sensible to resist sexual urges based on ancient judaic myths? ? ?[quote][/quote]

Krayola:
Natural instinct does not determine how human beings should behave.  That u've been saying it does all day doesn't make it so.

Really? And what dictates the fact that you eat food?

Natural instinct, no?

debosky:
People can choose to go against Natural Instincts anytime they want - that is why we are called 'higher animals'. It is against natural instinct to hold your waste in till you get to a toilet - instinct says release it on the spot. So unless you defecate whenever you feel the slightest urge regardless of location, even you are running counter to natural instinct, on a daily basis no less.

You are misrepresenting me sir.

Your example shows that control can and should be excercised.

I do not contest this. For example i may have the hots for my housegirl or a WH.ORE but rationally decide that i will not touch either.

What i have SAID is simply that complete ABSTINENCE is clearly UNNATURAL.

Just as surely as a complete refusal to defecate AT ALL is insanity. YOU CANNOT CONTEST THAT.

Examine that, sir.

^^^ I have a problem that it is BASED ON STUFF THAT CLEARLY RUNS COUNTER TO NATURAL INSTINCTS.

Krayola:
@ deepsight. . . what does the video have to do with someone's DECISION not to have intimacy before a certain date?

^^^^I have a problem with the fact that that decision is influenced by notions of morality related to myths about pre-marital intimacy being evil -

when it is EVIDENTLY natural.

JESOUL;

DAVIDYLAN;

KRAYOLA;

TV01 -

I VERY VERY VERY STRONGLY URGE YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE DEEP AND ENLIGHTENING VIDEO JAGUNLABI POSTED ABOVE.

THEN PLEASE GET BACK TO ME.

THANKS.

Quote from Krayola -

We are not slaves to instincts. We think things through and make decisions based on our individual values, motives, or whatever.

I suppose you are not a slave to the hunger instinct?

I suppose you can take a decision not to eat food for the rest of your life?

Go ahead and try.

davidylan:
Fallacy. Se.x is integral to the human race in terms of replenishing its own stock . . . it is NOT the same as food. Food is ABSOLUTELY important to the survival of the individual. A human can remain celibate for life and never suffer any negative consequences.

Survival of the race or survival of the individual: all na survival.

Nature gravitates towards survival - as a scientist you are aware of survival instincts no?

Thus in addittion to everything i have said, intimacy is a survival instinct as well - AND YOU CANNOT DENY THIS.

And?   What does this prove? That man is designed in such a way that we eliminate what the body does not make use of? Build up of toxins in the body is also released through sweat or eliminated in the kidneys through urine. Do wet dreams kill anyone?

This is BS dude.

Get real David. The body DOES NOT produce things that are not meant to be used - REGULARLY.

davidylan:
Does the fact that a 6 yr old boy has a functional pen.is mean its is naturally ok for a 6yr old to have se.x?

Get serious. Sexual maturity sets in at puberty, and as a scientist you are fully aware of that.

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=399034.msg5526144#msg5526144 date=1266345191]lack of intimacy isnt the same thing as starvation. You absolutely dont die from not having intimacy at a particular time.[/quote]And who specified the "particular time" that is appropriate for s.ex?

Bingo - HUMANS.

The sexual hormones come on strong at about puberty. That is the time nature has specified.

CLEARLY - That is the time God has specified as being appropriate to commence s.exu.al actions.

It is YOU HUMANS that have criminalized natures dictates.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

Thus if Nature intended people to have s.ex only during marriage, puberty would probably arise at an age when people are mature enough for marriage!

You can thus see that marriage itself has no NATURAL CO-RELATION to the se.xual instinct.
neither you nor davidylan nor a million moralistic christinans can claim that!

davidylan:
I dont think you are even bothering to reason through your own comments before posting. What does the above in highlights mean? So God shld have only given us the hormones AFTER the wedding?

Are you trying to indicate that man is an animal that cannot control his instincts?

Be serious. Nobody is suggesting that.

I am saying that teh fact of the presence of the hormones is evidence that the desire which they spark was meant by the creator to be used. The idea that such NATURAL desires should be suppressed is nothing but a HUMAN MORALISTIC presumption.

God does not create things purposelessly. Thus is teh hormones are there; then nature is telling you to use them.

What can you say about semen build-up in men who are astaining? Irrefutable evidence that abstinence IS UNNATURAL.

davidylan:
You brought up a false analogy, eating is not an instinct . . . it is a requirement for survival. I can be celibate and live a fully normal life . . . you cant refuse to eat or breathe and continue to exist.

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=399034.msg5526091#msg5526091 date=1266344441]btw, your starvation analogy is rather offbase because while you can starve to death from lack of food, you dont die from lack of or delayed intimacy.[/quote]YOU ARE BOTH WRONG:

1. Sex is just as integral to survival of the human race as food is. We would have been extinct eons ago without sex.

2.  The science of the human body shows us that if a man does not have sex regularly, he will suffer a build-up of semen within his scrotal sack and the body will contrive a force ejection of the semen usually through a wet dream.

THIS IS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT NATURE DESIGNED MEN TO HAVE REGULAR INTERCOURSE. THE VERY FACT THAT THIS HAPPENS THROUGH WET DREAMS FURTHER UNDERSCORES THE PSYCOLOGICAL HARM BEING DONE TO THE PERSON ON ACCOUNT OF THE MANIFESTLY UNNATURAL CONCEPT OF ABSTINENCE.

davidylan:
makes no sense to me . . . so her frigidity is enough for you to throw her away? I dont think you ever loved her in the first place.

It is clear to me you have never come across a frigid woman before.

Quote from TV01 -

Believe abstinence whilst single is what God expects

What is the meaning of this? ? ?

If God expected abstinence while single, why did he give the hormones that cause the powerful sexual urge? ? ?

ABSTINENCE IS UNNATURAL AND AS SUCH CANNOT BE SAID TO BE THE WILL OF GOD.

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=399034.msg5526052#msg5526052 date=1266344039]frigid woman= clueless man[/quote]That may be sometimes true, Tpia - but in reality there are many women who are actually and truly frigid.

What's to be done with such a woman/

Tell me her man would not definitely seek solace outside the marriage? ? ?

And would you blame him?

Krayola:
Anger is natural. Whether it is positive or negative does not change that. Also, releasing anger is healthy . . and being healthy is positive.

So, technically, knocking a mother fuka out is healthy if you are angry.    Seduction may be form of provocation. The point isn't about what is felt, but how it is acted on.


But what it seems u are saying is that our natural instincts should not be suppressed as long as they are positive. .  whatever the consequences of acting on these "instincts" are. I think that is ridiculous.

There are benefits to intimacy, and there are benefits to abstinence. The individual must sort it out for him or her self. This your "natural" criterion for how humans should behave is nonsense, IMO, simply because we are rational beings. We are not slaves to instincts. We think things through and make decisions based on our individual values, motives, or whatever.

Like you said intimacy is important for relationships to be healthy so one might want to test drive the goods before a life-long commitment. But that is an individual choice. But this "natural" argument u are making doesn't add up, and u seem to just be shifting goal post once an objection is made.

Your argument was that it is a natural urge and should not be suppressed. That has been shown to be ridiculous.

What are you on about, Krayola?

If a man is starving, would you advise him to shun food?

Simple!

Besides you have answered your own question when you stated -

But what it seems u are saying is that our natural instincts should not be suppressed as long as they are positive. .

- Which encapsulates a balance between passion and reason, so what else is there? ? ?

davidylan:
But sexual incompatibility is enough to stop you from marrying someone you love right?

But it isnt all about intimacy right?

Just go and try marrying a frigid woman. You will come back to me and confess pronto! ! !

What sort of love is that? A woman loves me and she can't get down with me?

Puhleaaase!

0hsisi:
Get married and make it legal.

What is the meaning of this? ? ?

Whoever told you that pre-marital s.ex is illegal? ? ?

davidylan:
And how many marriages where the partners are sexually compatible are still standing today? If sexual compatibility was all it took to make a marriage then i guess indecency stars would have the most successful marriages of all time.

Marriage is a lifetime commitment, it is also a spiritual relationship that does not revolve 100% around intimacy.

DAVID - I NEVER said it was all about intimacy so don't misquote me Mister.

I said s.ex is a huge component for a successful marriage.

If you don't think so try marrying a frigid woman.

You never hala.

davidylan:
the usual red herring we use to justify fornication. I'm no saint by any means but this does not wash. What if you find out you're not sexually compatible with the first 3-5 women you met? How many are you going to "test drive" before you finally decide on one?

As many as necessary. Marraige is a lifetime commitment and it makes no sense to take chances with it.

Sexual incompatibity has destroyed countless marriages. It is also a leading cause of infidelity.

If you are prepared to sign a transaction without conducting due-diligence beforehand, good luck to you.

Krayola:
hahaha. U be tiff, my guy.

Let's pretend anger is a "negative" emotion.

Y0ur argument was that sexual urges were natural and so should not be resisted. Not that they are positive and should not be resisted.

I pointed out something that was natural and should be resisted and you moved the goal post.

Remind me never to play table soccer with you. By the end of the game your post will be the diameter of my pinky finger.  

WRONG - It was VERY unfair of you to bring something that is accepted as negative and harmful and compare that thing to sex. Sex is altogether beneficial and natural.

Besides i could stretch the argument further. Anger is natural.

You yourself noted the element of provocation. It is natural to be angry whne provoked.

Let me offer you some provocation. You walk into your house and see Abuzola rapi.ng your six-year old daughter.

Will you resist the natural anger that arises withoin you?

If you would not resist that, then why should you resist the equally natural urge for sex? ? ?

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=399034.msg5525875#msg5525875 date=1266342342]are you saying intimacy is the only thing in this world that doesnt have any negatives? [/quote]I AM SAYING, AND HEAR ME LOUD AND CLEAR THAT S.EX IS NATURAL.

SAS NATURAL AS HUNGER.

WHEN YOU ARE HUNGRY THE NATURAL THING TO DO IS EAT. IT IS GOOD FOR YOU.

THUS WHEN YOU ARE HO.RN.Y THE NATURAL THING TO DO IS HAVE intimacy.

SIMPLE.

What would you think of a starving man who stubbornly rejects food? ? ?

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=399034.msg5525863#msg5525863 date=1266342216]^^ good points but what I actually mean is eat to live, dont live to eat.

Something along that line.[/quote]Fair enough.

Excess is relative and in any case its not just about excess but also eating sensibly.

I assume you must perforce agree that it is sensible to have intimacy with a person you are in love with and plan to marry?

Krayola:
Why resist anger, then? Is it unnatural to get angry when provoked? Why resist the urge to knock out anyone that provokes you?

Bad example. Anger is clearly identified as a negative emotion as opposed to positive emotions.

What is negative about sex, tell me? ? ?

Why resist the urge to knock out anyone that provokes you?

Because they just might knock you back

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=399034.msg5525807#msg5525807 date=1266341554]people struggle against the very natural instincts of their sexual hormones for the same reason they struggle against the very natural instinct of eating food to excess- it has an adverse effect on your health and mentality.

I like food doesnt mean I must spend all my time eating.

The OP's position is ridiculous because the alleged relationship has been going on for five years. Not because of the celibacy thing,  . .[/quote]You have ceded the debate with your very own words. You said -

"the same reason they struggle against the very natural instinct of eating food to excess- "

Thus it is clear that doing things TO EXCESS is what the problem is.

You also said -

"I like food doesnt mean I must spend all my time eating."

Which further proves my point as i like intimacy myself but do not "spend all my time" having sex!

Krayola:
test drive the "vehicle" before u commit for life. U may just end up with a jalopy.

That's another thing. People just punish themselves for no reason.

Sexual compatibility is a HUGE component for a successful and happy marriage.

Does it make sense to get married to somebody without even knowing what making love to that person is like? What if you buy into a lifetime of miserable intimacy?

Do your Due-Diligence beforehand and be sure of the goods you are buying.

JeSoul:
Oga no problem at all The only thing I got is - christians will understand why it is a sin - and I leave it at that.

Escapism dear friend.

You have yet to show me why sane people should struggle against the very natural instincts of their sexual hormones.

I define sin as that which runs counter to nature. That which is unnatural.

intimacy IS UNDENIABLY natural.

Thus resisting intimacy is resisting nature.

Thus resisting intimacy is a sin.

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=399034.msg5525738#msg5525738 date=1266340717]^^ marriage is very much a civil and physical thing, not just butterflies and fairies on rainbows.[/quote]What? ? ? Have you not heard of common-law matrimony? That extensive co-habitation is even legally construed as matrimony in certain legal matters? ? ?

Besides that is not the point. WE are talking about pre marital intimacy here: and you have yet to show me why sane people should struggle against the very natural instincts of their sexual hormones.

as countless women have found out after being replaced by a female who knew the importance of that piece of paper.

If i were advising the lady on how to secure the man's millions legally, i would advise her to get married and even offer her a draft pre-nup.

But we are not discussing that here. We are discusing intimacy before marriage.[quote][/quote]

[quote author=Evang. Olu link=topic=399034.msg5525685#msg5525685 date=1266340161]Ensure that both of you don't meet in secret places.
Always get a friend when ever he is coming around[/quote]My goodnress, what sort of dreadful advise is this? ? ?

A personal relationship with one's fiance is now to be a three-way-party?

Abeg, three is a crowd. Relationships are meaningless if people cannot even have privacy.

Lawd these terrible Christians with their ante-diluvian notions of morality.

intimacy IS NATURAL. GET OVER IT.

JeSoul:
It doesn't make you a carnal christian, it makes you human. For you to feel attracted to your partner is to be expected, infact if you weren't that would be a problem. You are not the first and will not be the last christian to struggle with intimacy with a partner whom you're not married to.

That being said, there's a reason sexual sin is the only sin we're commanded to "flee" from because of how complicated it is and how it can affect your life - spiritual, physical and sexual. And there are reasons we're told to abstain until marriage, and if you believe the bible as a christian, you understand that is it for your own good to do that - both of you. I encourage you to limit the opportunities for things to happen, and discuss openly with him about it - if you're both serious about getting married that is (if not then what are you doing with him?). And finally pray, and ask God to help you both in the way you should go. Godbless!

What do you define as a sin? ? ?

Does a bare sheet of paper presented as a marriage certificate have any spiritual relevance?

Was there a marriage certificate between Adama and Eve?

Is it nort clear that a couple who are deeply in love with each other and who are committed to each other emotionally and spiritually are already a married couple in the sight of God?

Is your spirituality based on the contents of sheets of paper?

KunleOshob:
Deepsight, you don dey kolo why don't you demonstrate this your idea of "holiness" by starting to move around butt unclothed? i can assure you you would get n instant space in the VIP section of Aro.

estrella:
I'm a young lady who loves God and is trying to walk with him as honestly as I can. I have one problem however; i feel extremely carnal when I am around my fiance! we have been together for over five years now and we are talking about getitng married.We made a vow to keep ourselves till we get married and even imposed a no kissing rule, just hugs. however,we have broken that rule a couple of times and its mostly because we both have mad chemistry.A peck can cause as much damage as a french kiss for both of us.
The thing is,when he isn't around me,Im perfectly fine.I feel like Im making progress with God,I read my bible and Im on a lovely spiritual plane.The minute he comes around,I always have to fight the urge to sleep with him.I think thoughts that shock even me when i see him and it bothers me greatly.I don't feel this way for any other person except him.As a christian, does this make me carnal? does this mean I'm not really born again? Is it wrong for me to want him the way I do? please I need the advice of mature christians,

By resisting the urge you are resisting the call of nature and that is a very unnatural thing to do.

The urge is there for a reason, just as surely as hunger is there for a reason: so that we eat.