₦airaland Forum

The fact is you don't understand christianity,

The fact is that Christianity is a ridiculous myth-infested foreign dogma which persons like you chop hook line and sinker without thinking.

Essentially iwe may say -

Eternal Time = Self Existent continuum

Self Existence = I am that I am.

I am that I am = God.

But havin watched that video, i cannot see what so demonic about it.

Get an imagination, folks!

Probably some of you guys are also the sort that would class alcohol or night clubs as demonic.

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=390266.msg5427469#msg5427469 date=1265042704]There is NOTHING like demonic, devil, witches, magicians et al. My friend, wake up.[/quote]Such things are products of humanity: i:e - good and evil spring from the Human Heart.

Thanks again, Beneli - great comments again.

But don't you think there is a difference between eternal time (no beginning and no end) - thus timeless in effect - and finite time (as we know it) in the material realm?

Because i think the description in the poem of time -

That mighty River with
Neither source nor mouth,
Which was –
Which is
And which shall ever be.

Is sufficient to suggest eternal and not finite time - and Eternal Time (without a beginning) surely refers to the transcendental.

In other words we are actually talking about a timeless state (seeming contradiction acknowledged: insufficiency of words).

Great comments Beneli.

I do agree that the way it is captured, it seems to refer to a beginning - whereas God cannot be said to have had a beginning.

But this is still hinted at when it says -

Then one day –
Or is it right to say “one day?” –

- It thus acknowledges in the words - "Or is it right to say one day?” – the timelessness of the factor it is referring to.

The description of Time is pertinent -

Upon the invisible waters of time –
That mighty River with
Neither source nor mouth,
Which was –
Which is
And which shall ever be.

- And indicative i think of utter eternity. Thus the subject of this Poem is clearly not the physical realm - or matter - but is transcendental reality. I therefore believe that the "beginning" of this universe (big bang/ whatever) is not what the poem refers to but the "rational" for the existence of an uncreated God -

Because the admixture of self-existent eternal time and "nothingness" (which is not nothing) is the very basis for the eternal existence of the uncreated and eternal GOD.

I recently purchased a wonderful addition to my personal library titled – “Indaba, my Children – African Tribal History, Culture, Legends, Customs and Religious beliefs.”

I was struck by following set out in the opening –


The Sacred Story of the Tree of Life -
The Self Created

No stars were there – no sun
Neither moon nor earth
Nothing existed but darkness itself
A darkness everywhere
A nothingness neither hot nor cold
Dead or Alive –

For how long this nothingness lasted,
No one will ever know;
And why there was nothing -
[/b]But Nothing is Something[/b]
We must never try to learn.

Nothingness had been floating
For no one knows how long
Upon the invisible waters of time –
That mighty River with
Neither source nor mouth,
Which was –
Which is
And which shall ever be.

Then one day –
Or is it right to say “one day?” –
The River Time desired Nothingness
Like a flesh and blood male beast
Desires his female partner.
And as a result of this strangest mating
Of Time and Nothingness –
A most tiny invisible spark
Of Living Fire was born

This tiny Living Spark could think
And grew conscious of it’s lonely state –

“I exist – I am what I AM!” –
Was the living thought that pulsed through the “mind”
Of the tiny spark -
As it wildly flew through the dark.



This, I thought was utterly beautiful, especially as it contains seeds of the thinking I have tried to pass across regarding the rationale for God’s existence.

It is written as a poem, and thus may not be taken rationally or in terms of pure logic – but I think it conveys an interesting concept of the existence of God.

The poem carries on for about forty pages – needless to say, I cannot type this all here, but I will try to type out some portions which dwell on the existence of the Tree of Life – and which show that knowledge of that Tree is not unique to the ancient Middle-East.

^^^ Yep, it's easier to take the high road and take off than address glaring inconsistencies right out of your Harry Potter novel.

Mavenb0x:
Ilosiwaju, Jesus being a son of David is not literal and ancestral. It is symbolic, a figurative expression of his spiritual messiahship.

Typical. Standard christian-template response. Once anything does not add up, they declare it symbolic.

You need to understand Jewish tradition and prophecy to unlock that.

Jewsish prophecy specifically spoke about a descendant of David, and the FACT remains that Jesus of Nazareth was NOT a descendant of David anymore than i am a descendant of Christopher Columbus.

Besides if you talk about Jewish tradition, go and ask the Jews: they are not fooled by this hocus pocus - they know their prophecies well and you arrogantly imagine you understand their own traditions bettrer than they do - they DO NOT ACCEPT ALL THIS HOCUS POCUS.

Quote from Mavenbox -

@Deep Sight: your question is troublesome. Think. When the Greeks mentioned Hades, what were the extents? As far as the Greeks understood, besides Heaven where God and angels are, and the physical planes where man is, and Tartarus where imprisoned angels were, and Gehenna: that final furious hellfire to consume all evil, all other realms were lumped as Hades (Hebrew Sheol) and included the devil's unseen military bases to influence the physical, included the receptacle of good &evil dead men's souls, and also other realms above the physical. Do you understand set theory, sir? Then picture what I said on a Venn diagram to understand better. Heaven is not part of Hades, but Hades has intersected with heaven since Christ rose. The intersection is what was called paradise. Stop thinking in LOCATIONS using words. Think INFLUENCES of spiritual aspects and understand the limitation of the human languages in expressing spiritual truths!

When will you stop this fraud?

Why the ceaseless twisting and turning? Is it not easier to honestly re examine your convictions and see if there are not things to be re assessed? Does it make any sense to stubbornly insist that everything you know and believe must needs be correct in its entirety and must therefore be defended at the very cost of common reason?

We all well know the meaning and definition of the word Hades. Every Bible Concordance you can reach for be it here or in Kathmandu will affirm to you the simple truth: Hades means, has always meant, and will always mean the realm of the Dead.

It remains an absurdity to suggest that paradise – a realm clearly supposed to be pulsating with life – rests in the realm of death. It is an incongruous and appalling contradiction that can only rise from the cesspit of bizarre dogma which you seem to have an abundance of!

I INSIST THAT THE POST ABOVE IS FRAUDULENT FOR ONE REASON: YOU ATTEMPT TO PULL THE WOOL OVER OUR EYES BY URGING US NOT TO “THINK IN TERMS OF LOCATIONS” BUT TO “THINK IN TERMS OF INFLUENCES” – WHICH DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO HELP YOUR CASE BECAUSE IT CANNOT BE ARGUED THAT THE INFLUENCES OF DEATH (HADES) ABIDE WITH THE INFLUENCES OF LIFE - ESPECIALLY WHEN THE TREE OF LIFE IS STATED TO BE RESIDENT IN PARADISE. WHAT “INFLUENCES” FROM YOUR HADES AFFECT THE TREE OF LIFE WHICH THE BIBLE SAYS IS WITHIN THE ETERNAL PARADISE OF GOD? ? ?

It thus remains clear and certain that the somersault you tried to perform – in changing the definition of Hades to “the unseen” must rebound on you forcefully by categorizing heaven and God as all resident in Hades, since Heaven and God are the prime unseen realms! ! !

This twisting and turning only spawns even more bizarrely formed results, such as -

Heaven is not part of Hades, but Hades has intersected with heaven since Christ rose. The intersection is what was called paradise.

What sort of spin is this?

This is what annoys me. Where did you get this information from? You imagine that the realm of the dead “has intersected” with “heaven” from a particular point in time, and that the intersection is “paradise!” Do you realize this is a brand new theory different from the absurdity you initially proposed? And you bark down everyone else telling them how limited the understanding is. Your imagination is very rich madam – write a Harry Potter Novel!

Aside this, if Hades intersected with Heaven at the point of Christ’s death, then that would mean that paradise (which you say is the intersection) only began to exist at that point. So where the heck had the tree of life been – which the bible asserts had been in paradise from the beginning of time!

I don’t even believe I am addressing this spin.

@Nuclearboy – please deliver me. I am at severe pains that any person would advance the sort of obvious spin above and expect candies from me. I address this to you because you have accused me of hunting her for no reasons or petty reasons. Please tell me what you make of this fresh claim that – “Hades has intersected with heaven since Christ rose. The intersection is what was called paradise.

And she goes as far as using analogies of set theory to show us an “intersection” between Hades and Heaven! Please!

Perhaps you can now appreciate in all clarity my difficulties with this poster.

Justcool maybe you can assist me in discussing the nature of God with Viaro. I am at odds that he imagines the laws of God are such that a physical body may dwell bodily in a spiritual realm. I have yet to summon the energy to deal exhaustively with tat presupposition of his. Thanks.

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=388869.msg5414975#msg5414975 date=1264847733]look how I turned out. . . A model citizen![/quote]

Why I am so often misunderstood on NL?

Maybe you might want to re examine your convictions.

Or the way you put them across.

My personal view is that you are quite reactive and judgmental on others: notwithstanding that the ideas you yourself advance rank among the most outlandish. It is very difficult to stomach the idea of a person who advances some of your ideas (i.e: paradise is in Hades, the Tree of Life is in Hades; the Tree of Life will be moved to heaven) barking down others and telling them how ridiculous they are in their beliefs.

Just my two cents: sincerely meant.

Lol guys!!!!! Such great fun!!!!!

This is really stitches!!!!

Anyhow I do think Maven and Viaro will make a great couple, very passionate duo.

@ Nuclearboy - I am saddened at your conclusion. Did it not occur to you that I am genuinely perplexed at Maven's claims? They seem outlandish to me -  and by the posts of others - not just to me! Even after her "explanations" the whole thing still looks terribly bizzare.

I wont lie to you: its beginning to appear to me that as long as a "christian" on this forum makes a claim - no matter how outlandish it is, other christians must rush to defend it when it is attacked - as some sort of odd dogma-induced solidarity.

I challenge you to examine closely Maven's statements and revert to me with your personal conclusions.

Also in all of your allegations i urge you to remember that Maven asked me to open this thread to discuss hell - and of course her claims regarding Hades are an important aspect of her views which i need her to elucidate.

@ Viaro - I am at odds that i am important enough to have upset you. I would have thought my "linear tarradiddle" and "id.iotic" arguments would elicit no more than a condescending smirk from your excellency.

Let me assure you of one thing though. I have an incurably thick skin - so be rest assured that in everything i still consider you my dear friend. WHAT YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THOUGH, IS THAT MY FONDNESS FOR YOU WILL NOT STOP OR CHANGE MY PERPECTIVE REGARDING YOUR LIMITED REASONING WHEN YOU SAY THINGS LIKE - PHYSICAL BODIES RISE AND DWELL BODILY IN SPIRITUAL REALMS. THAT CAUGHT ME ASTONISHED: AND I AM STILL REELING FROM THE SHOCK THAT ANYBODY COULD THINK THAT: I WILL GET BACK TO THAT THREAD TO TRY TO ILLUMINATE THE SUBJECT.

@Marvelous Maven - Yes, back to topic - Heaven is also "unseen" yes? Does this suggest that the word Hades as used in the bible also encompasses Heaven and the abode of God? I am confused, please assist.

Thanks.

Krayola:
@deepsight. I apologize for my rude comments yesterday. I was gettin a hard time from my family and was just generally irritated and I took it out on you. I had no reason or right to speak to you like that and to be honest I felt kinda shitty later in the day when I had gotten over my mood swing. Abeg make u no vex. I owe you four big stout and a bucket of pepper soup.

Men you are a gentleman 99.99999% of the time so like i always say you have the right to vex and explode every now and then! You be my guy, you know say you get immunity for my side.

If the four stout na small stout, e no go do o; na big stout i dey hammer

It appears that the Christian gang led by Viaro and Mavenbox are currently holding another Council of Nicea Nairaland and striking out Reincarnation from the body of beliefs again.

Mavenb0x:
Is that why you are yelling in CAPS? Can we not have a civilized discussion without raising our voices like barbarians? Thank God I am not there, maybe I would have gotten a complementary slap induced by your defeat-engendered red eyes!

Slap from me? Come on now. I have told you several times that I like being spanked by women, and not the other way round.

Yes of course I agree that Elijah was translated into the heavens BODILY. He DID NOT DIE. Death is a separation of spirit and body, which did not happen in his case.

1 . Tell me, where is it written that a physical body cannot enter into heaven?

Amazing the somersaults of these Christians. In another thread you insisted that Elijah never went to heaven. Do not bother to deny it or I will go fetch the quote. You were at pains to make a distinction between the Hebrew words for “sky” and “heaven”. You insisted that Elijah only went to the “sky” (to do what I wonder amongst the clouds? ? ?)

Now your mentor Viaro comes along and states clearly that Elijah went to the spiritual heavens with his physical body, and you somersault and fall into line with this!

Amazing, these guys!

My lunch is getting cold.

Quote from Justcool -

The bible we have today does not teach reincarnation, [size=16pt]although there are stories in it that suggest reincarnation. IE stories that suggest that the writers might have believed in reincarnation.[/size]

Thank you. And some people want to break my head simply because i pointed out such stories.

I would havethought it would suffice to state that the words of Jesus were symbolic only and then prove that they were symbolic.

Is that so hard?

I hope my points are clearer.

No, regrettably they are not: and i will return to address them. I am off for lunch now.

Cheerio!

Hmm Maven. That Chess game is becoming embarrasing for me again. Why are you so merciless?

@ Ilosiwaju - The stout was good, i still don't regret my decision to decamp to stout after fifteen years of drinking star beer and foreign lagers. Now the stout gave me a good sleep, and in the morning the usual quality session in the loo: now i am strong and refreshed.

Where is marvelous maven? Maven I am not sure you can sustain your outlandish claims.

Now it is very interesting for me to note the extents of absurdity to which the Christian is willing to subject himself/ herself.

Let's take another look at Marvellous Maven -

1. Paradise, before Christ's resurrection, was part of Hades (the place of the Unseen). After Christ's resurrection, those who used to be in Paradise are now in Heaven, so can we then say that Paradise was left behind in "Hades"? Of course not, the inhabitants were now in Heaven, which gives for my statement that paradise "moved" to heaven, I was talking about the "contents" of Paradise.

Before Christ's resurrection, paradise was part of Hades? Jesus. Where do I start? These are the same Christians who will happily lambast everyone else as being id.iots. I noticed that a poster in this thread expressed his opinion when entering the thread without insulting anybody at all. Not even an untoward word. The Christian soldier Marvellous Maven promptly declared him an "idio.t" and a "jack.a.s.s" - her excuse being his positions in previous threads.

Now with this statement of hers I just wonder who really is who.

Let's note a few things -

The word predominantly used in the NT for hell is the Greek word Hades. It is well known that this refers to the realm of the dead. Indeed Marvellous Maven must accept that this very word is the word used in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Thus the rich man is said to be "in hades” and the parable specifically states that he was in great torment. The inference is pretty clear that he was supposedly in the place understood to be hell - the use of the word "torment" - makes this clear.

Thus the word “hell” which we know and use, is the word “hades” used in the NT. Aside this, this word “Hades” and its Hebrew equivalent – “sheol” together account for 90% of the appearances of the word “hell” in the bible. Accordingly it is absolutely correct – and denial of this fact is nothing but deceit – it is absolutely correct to state that when Maven asserts Paradise to be in Hades, she is clearly asserting paradise to be in Hell – as far as the bible understanding of the word “hell” goes.

This aside, her surmise is as incongruous as it is bizarre. The Eternal paradise of the living God is a place that has existed from the dawn of creation. This paradise is the place into which the first human spirit germs were seeded. It is the very bastion of life itself: and that is why the tree of life is recorded in both Genesis and Revelation to be resident therein: within the eternal paradise of God.

It is a mockery of both commonsense and evidential reasoning to suggest that the Tree of Life – the very bastion of all life  - is actually resident in the place of death.

Now to escape this apparent conundrum our marvellous magician maven has come up with a scenario whereby the Tree of Life was once in Hades, and according to her, it will “be moved” to heaven!

Now I wonder what the scriptural basis for this is – and this same person will shout all day about others “importing” things into scripture.

If we must import things into scripture, at least let’s not import Walt Disney fantasies!

Guys, tell me if I am losing my mind here ? ? ?

The tree of life spoken about in the Bible is in the Paradise of God. Understanding that this "paradise", being an "Unseen" was also in Hades, then we see that the tree of life is in that "Unseen" place called Hades.

Maven is being clever by half in attempting to subtly alter the meaning of the word Hades. If she will stick with her insistence that Hades refers to the unseen, then we must per force conclude that Heaven itself is in Hades – since heaven is an absolutely unseen realm.

We must also go further to declare that God himself dwells in Hades – as He is resident in an unseen realm.

Oh dear – God used to be in Heaven, but since Heaven is unseen, he has now relocated to Hades!

Beware guys all the relocation going on! ! !

Nah Viaro . . .it simply indicates that since they are conscious of nothing at all, they necessarily have no part under the sun.

Nothing more.

Abeg una don tire me o. I dey go club go drink stout now.

Later.

Right Good,

So far we have shown that paradise, according to you = a place of no perception - given that it is in Hades - yes?

Nah. Ecclesiates states - "conscious of nothing at all" - so it is beyond me that you contradict it and state - "no - another type of consciousness."

Typical escapism, i am getting used to your disrespect for your own scriptures.

Anyhow, i do not want to derail - let's get back to your interesting surmise of Paradise being located in hell - where there is no "perception!"

Come on guys.

It cant be this hard.

Twisting and turning again?

You may both carry on about your dim view of me: i will be more circumspect and try not to disclose my own view of your arguments!

To business now -

Maven - you waste my time when you talk about physical sight. You should have seen in your very own attachment - which i referred to - that the word "perception" was also used. This altogether goes beyond physical sight to all manner of perceiving anything at all.

Thus it is gravely beside the point to insinuate that i was referring to physicaly sight. I referred clearly - and stated - "NO CONSCIOUSNESS" - which is a compound statement that closes down all forms of perception altogether.

The Ecclesiates quote is pretty clear - it states that -

1. The Dead are conscious of nothing at all

2. That all their passions (jealousies, hatred, love etc) are totally shut down.

Thus it is absolutely incongruous to suggest that -

1. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man was real and not just a parable -

2. AND THAT SUPPOSEDLY DEAD PERSONS SUCH AS LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN COULD PERCEIVE THINGS IN A PLACE MAVEN CONCEDES THAT NO PERSON CAN PERCEIVE ANYTHING!

It is artsy, and frankly dishonest, to claim that the second refernce to events under the sun obliterates the first statement categorically stating that the Dead are conscious of nothing at all. I see that the second statement merely adds that since they are conscious of nothing at all, they could of course have no part in live events on going under the sun.

Jeeeeezzzzy!

YOU MUST BE KIDDING ME MAVEN.

GOD BEING THE COMPOUND OF ALL SELF EXISTENT LAWS IS NOT WHIMSICAL.

THIS IS WHY IT IS SAID THAT GOD IS IMMUTABLE - UNCHANGEABLE.

PERFECTION CANNOT CHANGE - AS IT IS ALREADY PERFECT.

THAT IS THE BASIS OF THE IMMUTABILITY OF GOD; GOD IS ONE AND GOD IS PERFECT.

FOR THIS REASON GODS LAWS DO NOT CHANGE. YOUR BIBLE AFFIRMS THIS WHEN IT STATES THAT HEAVEN AND EARTH MAY PASS AWAY BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ABIDETH FOREVER.

THIS IS WHY PHYSICAL LAWS APPLY ON PHYSICAL PLANES.

VIARO'S ASSERTION THAT A PHYSICAL BODY MAY RISE TO A SPIRITUAL PLANE AND LIVE THERE BODILY IN ITS PHYSICAL FORM IS A FARCE. I ASKED A SIMPLE QUSTION: DO YOU ACCEPT THAT AS YOUR POSITION ALSO?

IF YOU DO I WILL HAVE TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND BY THE TERMS "SPIRITUALITY" OR A "SPIRITUAL PLANE".

MY COMMENTS WERE SARCASTICALLY DESIGNED TO HELP YOU SEE HOW RIDICULOUS THE CLAIM THAT EARTHLY BODIES LIVE BODILY IN SPIRITUAL REALMS IS.

GOD HAS SET THE LAWS - AND BELIEVE ME EVEN GOD IS BOUND BY HIS PERFECT LAWS - FOR THE VERY REASON THAT GOD IS PERFECT.

THUS HE CANNOT CHANGE THEM; HE IS IMMUTABLE.

THAT WHICH APPLIES TO A PHYSICAL BODY MUST NEEDS APPLY TO IT.

I DOUBT THAT YOU HAVE THOUGHT THIS THROUGH IN ANY TERMS AT ALL. OTHERWISE YOU MIGHT WONDER WHAT DEATH ITSELF IS ALL ABOUT IF PHYSICAL BODIES SUCH AS OURS LIVE BODILY IN SPIRITUAL REALMS.

I AM SURPRISED THAT THE ELEMENTARY FACT THAT PHYSICAL BODIES ARE FINITE ENTITIES OF MATTER HAS MISSED YOU. I WONDER HOW SUCH FINITE ENTITIES -WHICH ARE TIME-BOUND ARE SUPPOSED TO DWELL IN A TIMELESS REALM.

GO FIGURE AND DONT EVEN BE HAVING A CIRCUS.

MEN! ! !

DeepSight, please drop it - your style of discussing is becoming too much of a bore to waste time on.

So why the heck do you waste so much time on me and my inanities?

Oh - It must be evangelism laced with four letter words!

This is just fantastic. I'm having a party.

Maven asserts now that those in Hades (the unseen realms) cannot "see" or "perceive" anything.

And this same Maven asserted in another thread that the Parable of Lazarus & the rich man in Hades was a real event and not a parable only - thus that the rich man in Hades could "see" and "perceive" Lazarus in Abraham's bosom - FAR OFF!

Wow! Such delightful contradictions!

Tell now Maven, how do you escape this one? They cannot "see" or "perceive" according to your defintion attached above.

But the Rich man in Hades can see and perceive! And you say it was a real event!

Marvelous Maven! This Christian thing no go kill your logic o!

Maven - do you also take the stand that physical bodies such as we currently have may dwell in spiritual realms bodily?

Just asking so i address it 2moro.

Men Elijah it would be interesting o. Elijah must be eating physical food to sustain his physical body while he is in heaven. Doubtless he will be defecating there too, since that is a physical imperative of the physical body. Marvelous! These Christians. . . 2moro sha.

Mavenb0x:
You have (deliberately?) taken the post out of its context, because I will quote the entire scripture below:

I am not on my PC so I will quote from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+9&version=NIV

The scripture you have misconstrued above never indicated that the agents and entities in Sheol have no consciousness. Rather, it makes it clear that they have no PHYSICAL INFLUENCE in the SEEN realms that they can partake of (see the red emboldened part). Even Dives' request to send Lazarus to change his brothers' lives was turned down flat by Abraham. So what exactly is your point?  

Maven/ Viaro - Why do you both conveniently skip the sentence which says - "THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING."

I suppose -

 1. That you will now tell me that it is symbolic only OR -

 2. You do not wish to accept that this shows off a biblical contradiction when contrasted with the verses Viaro cited.

Right. I am all ears for the twisting and turning that is sure to follow.

Thank you Mavenbox.

Can you address this for me -

Ecclesiates 9:5 -

"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead are conscious of nothing at all - neither have they any further reward - even the memory of them is forgotten."

This clearly suggest that Hades is a place of no consciousness at all.

How do you reconcile your ideas of paradise, comfort, abraham's bosom, the garden of eden, etc etc - all being in a place of no consciousness at all - Hades?

Thank you Viaro.

For tonight i am not certain that i have the words to address a man who belives that physical bodies may live in spiritual realms.

Tomorrow perhaps i will try to address both biblically and commonsensically why that is a really really bizzarre thing for an educated mind to suggest.

Gnite Viaro.