₦airaland Forum

JeSoul:
I have a feeling of a prayer about DS and Krayola . . . by His mercy, it won't be long before they are arrested beyond rescue by the beauty and mystery of the cross.

Too late sista: you have no idea what a great christian fanatic i once was: from the age of about 4 my whole family and relatives called me "pastor" and "bishop" because of this business of obsession with the truth and seeking it. . . used all my poocket money in primary school to buy bibles and christian literature. . .bored my siblings to death preaching to them. . . wrote hymns. . . became a Jehovah's Witness. . . preached in Secondary school. . .u have no idea dear. . . it's been a long road; but i will never turn back to that now: its dead whereas now i am firmly and truly liberated and alive in the will of the one true living GOD. . .this i know in my heart for sure. . .

JeSoul:
Lol, you know DS, some of us actually have lives outside of NL and do not spend 24/7 here .

Now what was your question again? This is why I told you I purposed not to discuss christian issues with non-christians - we don't speak the same language.

You see how incomprehensible it is to you that a person can give up se.x for the sake of Christ? In your reasoning that soul is missing out on a pleasure you believe man cannot live without, BUT to that person, they have gained a joy and peace and freedom from being bondaged, ensalved to their flesh.
Exhibit A: Paul. He gave it up to dedicate his life to God. Monks and nuns do this all the time. Kini big deal? There's so much more to life than se.x my dear, so much more. If only the revolving doors can halt for just a second to take a look at what's around they'd be shocked at how much fulfilment there is in a life live solely for God not self.

And this is even only in extreme cases. How many christian women/men have really NEVER found a husband/wife? How many? Cos I personally don't know any. Even a crazy friend of mine who I once thought no man could ever live with just got married at 26 last week, a full decade before any of us thot she would. As Tpia alluded to, it is very rare to even see the kinds of cases you're worrying about.

Thank you, but you are yet to say if YOU will be celibate for life in the event that you do not marry.

The quetion is that simple.

P.S: Please i never said a single word about sex for pleasure so please do not misquote me: i said sex AS A NECESSARY NATURAL INSTINCT.

MyJoe -

The biblical assertion "the fool says in his heart - there is no God" applies perfectly to the atheistic mindset.

Let me hasten to add however, that there are millions of people who do not believe in the God per se; but remain highly moralistic and apply the principle of humanist love and brotherhood to all that they interact with.

I will be inclined to saying that even if the conscious mind of such a person rejects the idea of God as expounded: the inner spirit of such a person has apprehended and absorbed the most essential principles of God.

Can such a person be called "a fool" in biblical terms?

I think not.

Viaaaaaro!

Where you don dey na? I have missed your caustic tongue. . .

Deep Sight:
I ask YOU Jesoul - if it so happened that you never found a partner (Jupiter forbid) WOULD YOU OPT FOR THE SECOND OPTION: A LIFETIME TILL DEATH WITHOUT ANY SE.X AT ALL? ? ? ? ? ?

I KNEW you would abscond from this question.

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=399034.msg5544731#msg5544731 date=1266582577]Una dey sell condom?[/quote]

this is the best thread i have ever read on nairaland

Dogma is a terrible blindfold.

Christian dogma being by far the worst and most outlandish.

Imagine people defending the idea that one Jewish Rabbi is almighty God ? ? ? ? ? ?

Sickening.

Thanks Jesoul.

So i take it that we have now crossed the rubicorn.

WE can now thus clearly see that -

IF A CHRISTIAN IS UNABLE TO FIND A MARRIAGE PARTNER IN YOUR OWN WORDS, ONLY TWO OPTIONS AVAIL SUCH A PERSON -

1. Abandon Christianity or

2. Live the rest of your life without having se.x until you die.

I leave it to you to choose, whilst hoping that such an eventuality will never be your lot, so that you can see the real life consequences of the dogma you so lightly brandish.

I ask YOU Jesoul - if it so happened that you never found a partner (Jupiter forbid) WOULD YOU OPT FOR THE SECOND OPTION: A LIFETIME TILL DEATH WITHOUT ANY SE.X AT ALL? ? ? ? ? ?

Must it be that case that when oddities are pointed out in one's religion, the receiving party can only respond by pointing out oddities in the religion of the questioning party?

Why not just address the glaring inconsistency?

Nuclearboy - the best escape for the trinitarian is to claim that it is a mystery transcending human understanding. I offer that route to you: take it: for you well know that it is NOT a logical dogma.

You also know very well that there are zillions of verses in the bible that positively negate the trinity.

So please dont blame others if they see inconsistencies while you struggle to defend every obvious verse in the bible which contradicts the trinity.

Quote from Jesoul -

I'm not calling you a liar my dear, but you must understand why I cannot take your word for it.

You HAVE called me a liar. Emphatically so. Thank you.

Nevertheless that begs the question.

Let us assume that i am lying (which i am not).

It is not definite that there are many middle-aged christian spinsters in the world?

Is it not also definite that not all of them will marry in this lifetime?

I REPEAT; IS IT YOUR CHRISTIAN SUGGESTION THAT THEY SHOULD SPEND THEIR ENTIRE LIVES WITHOUT HAVING SE.X AT ALL? ? ? - SINCE MARRIAGE ELUDES THEM?

IS THAT EVEN REMOTELY NATURAL? DOES IT NOT REEK OF A PERVERSE ADHERENCE TO SOMETHING THAT IS SICKENINGLY AGAINST THE NATURAL ORDER? ? ?

ANSWER ME THIS AND STOP ESCAPING BY SAYING YOU DONT BELIEVE ME ON MY COUSIN.

Quote from Krayola -

It is a choice they have made, and it does not in anyway hinder your ability to chase your dreams. When it does that, feel free to raise hell. I'll bring the kerosene.

Really? You are one of the most honest and sincere persons on this forum in my view. I verily hope that that honesty has not taken flight.

BECAUSE you are all too aware as i indicated before that this sort of dogma actually interferes with EVERYBODY'S LIFE. You cannot claim as you have above that "it does not in anyway hinder your ability to chase your dreams."

1. Look at Islamic societies like Saudi Arabia. Which woman there is free to pursue her personally chosen sexual lifestyle? The society makes it IMPOSSIBLE for the individual to have personal choices in these matters.

2. It is the SAME religious dogmatic consideration that you are advocating that has driven the Saudi's to that sorry state.

3. Even in secular states such as Nigeria, the overwhelming condemnation associated with free sexuality serves to prohibit many many people from pursuing their own freely chosen path of sexual liberalism. Please do not dare deny that there is a mighty social burden; a stigma, which many people on a psycological level are frightened of: and as humans we cannot escape our social psyche. Thus the plain truth is that these beliefs actually affect everyone - including those who do not share such beliefs.

4. I cannot count the numerous instances where a potentially life-long and beautiful relationship has been cut short on account of the influence of dogma (he does not attend my church; he does not believe in this or that). . .

HOW DARE YOU TELL ME IT DOES NOT AFFECT US ALL? ? ? EVEN IN TERMS OF SOCIAL AND FAMILY PRESSURE ALONE IT IS VERY VERY REAL! ! !

DO NOT LIE!

JESOUL THIS IS A TERRIBLE FORM OF ESCAPISM.

YOU ARE CONFRONTED WITH THE VERY WORDS OF ST PAUL AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS DUCK BY SAYING YOU WILL NOT DISCUSS WITH A NON-CHRISTIAN? ? ? ?

ASIDE FROM THE FACT THAT THAT IN ITSELF IS DISCRIMINATORY (AGAINST ME: FOR NOT BEING CHRISTIAN) AND INDICATIVE OF A DIVISIVE APPROACH TO RELIGIOUS UNDERSTANDING, IT IS ALSO A GREAT WAY TO AVOID DIFFICULT POSERS. CONGRATS.

And yes, my Cousin complains to me. Feelings of guilt, etc etc.

When you guys propagate dogma like this, remember that your listeners are only human and can easily become confused and disoriented given that your dogma teaches them to contradict the very essence of their human nature.

I cannot think of anything more sinister than that.

JeSoul:
I'm just wondering why it bothers others so much that a certain group of people have chosen to keep themselves only for their spouse.

I have already provided cogent reasons why it bothers me but it seems you were not taking note.

I restate: It bothers me because -

3. Is it not true that the dogma affects many innocent people by causing them to feel a terrible burden of guilt for the simple fact that they are normal human sexual beings?

4. Is it not true that in many societies in the past and even conservative islamic societies up till today, people were and have been stoned to death, ostracized, burnt to death, etc for the simple fact that they did what comes naturally to everybody - they had s.ex?

And in addittion my poor cousin will go about under some misapprehension that she is obliged never to have se.x till she dies only because she did not get married!

Is that not enough to bother me? ??

JeSoul:
I'm just wondering why it bothers others so much that a certain group of people have chosen to keep themselves only for their spouse.

What is this? ? ?

Embedded in this statement is AN ASSUMPTION that everybody gets married eventually.

THAT IS FALSE.

My cousin is 49 and she is NOT married. Reason? She simply never found the man that gelled with her.

Now she is a christian. Is it YOUR recommendation that she spends thE whole of her life resisting sexual urges and remaining celibate? ? ? ?

DOES THAT SOUND NATURAL TO YOU? ? ? ? ?

GET HONEST! ! !

JeSoul:
Your opinion of Paul and you're most certainly entitled to it. The heaviest of emphasis on "your".

WRONG MADAM. IT IS NOT HIS OPINION OF ST PAUL: IT IS THE OBJECTIVE FACT.

This is the same chauvinist St Paul who -

1. Insisted that no woman must ever lead the church

2. Stated that women should not open their mouths to speak in the presence of male leaders

3. Stated that it is best for a man not to marry at all -

4. And added that men should feel free to marry IF they cannot hold their agro! It is CLEAR THAT HE WAS AN UNBRIDLED CHAUVINIST.

Must you defend every "man of God" ? ? ?

No sensible person, christian or otherwise, gets married simply because they want to get down.

But that is exactly what the chauvinist fanatic St. Paul recommended, no?

We're very satisfied and content with our chosen lifestlye.

No you are not. You have conditioned yourself to militate against nature and imagine that you are satisfied.

I tire o, Ilosiwaju - so much bl.oody hypocrisy on this subject. I am sure perhaps only 1% of those screaming abstinence here actually abstain!

And 90% of the 1% are probably abstaining because no show for them anyway.

Let me start off the poll by handing in my own confession: I DO NOT ABSTAIN.

I am not in the business of deluding myself and contradicting nature.

Escapism leads us nowhere.

Esp escapism based on dogma.

For Emphasis here are the points again -

1. Krayola said - "Hunger isn't deemed sinful, but gluttony is."

When he says that Hunger is not sinful, but that gluttony is sinful – he thereby admits that EXCESSES are what should be regarded as sinful.

So why is he shy of applying that very logic to se.x and reach the conclusion that only excess se.x is sinful? ? ?


2. WHAT ABOUT A PERSON WHO NEVER GETS MARRIED? Does your christianity require such a person to be celibate for life? How natural does that seem to you?

3. Is it not true that the dogma affects many innocent people by causing them to feel a terrible burden of guilt for the simple fact that they are normal human sexual beings?

4. Is it not true that in many societies in the past and even conservative islamic societies up till today, people were and have been stoned to death, ostracized, burnt to death, etc for the simple fact that they did what comes naturally to everybody - they had s.ex? IS IT THEREFORE NOT GLARING THAT SUCH DOGMA THAT PREACHES AGAINST SOMETHING AS NATURAL AND SIMPLE AS SEX SHOULD BE actively discoraged by all men and women of true conscience?

ANSWER ME!

Jesoul did you make a mistake?

Have a look at your post - No. 115 on this thread.

You quoted me where i stated that not everyone gets married and thus what should happen to such persons - lifetime celibacy? -

And then you posted a response that had absolutely nothing to do with the issue i raised. It rather seemed your write-up was directed at the post of Godson?

Perhaps you are tired.

I also notice you totally evaded the many many issues and posers i brought up -

Deep Sight:
JESOUL - It is entirely and altogether impossible to listen to Krayola on this one, my dear.

Let's have a look at what he has put on the table -

But first neither he nor your eminent self have cared to address this –

Note particularly the fact that not every person gets married.

Is it YOUR considered Christian view that christians who do not get married should spend the whole of their lives never having s.ex AT ALL?

I am going to presume on your behalf that you are able to see how scandalous and anti-natural such a proposition should be. That a human being born a sexual creature would spend an entire lifetime repressing the sexual instinct.

Now under your dogma, the only way ANY HUMANBEING would be able to avert this terrible fate is to get married. Thus certain people will per force end up marrying partners they care little for. . . just to avoid a lifetime sentence of celibacy. . .how does that sound to you? ? ?

More crucially Krayola has failed to revert to me on these crucial posers –

1. The dogma affects many innocent people by causing them to feel a terrible burden of guilt for the simple fact that they are normal human sexual beings

2. In many societies in the past and even conservative islamic societies up till today, people were and have been stoned to death, ostracized, burnt to death, etc for the simple fact that they did what comes naturally to everybody - they had intimacy.

Tell me why people should suffer a burden of guilt for expressing their sexuality ? ? ?

I will never accept that such makes any sense or is healthy in any terms in a rational society.


The truth is that all these myths and restraints are already on their way out of the human psyche as enlightenment spreads – you will hardly meet many Europeans who have these perceptions and I bet you that in another 100 years you will struggle hard to find such views ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Wanna bet?

Krayola said –

This is bizarre in the extreme. Especially since he had already defined dogma as belief without evidence or reason. He here insinuates that when I point out the natural world and natural instincts that is dogmatic? Is the natural world not the best “evidence” and “reason” or “basis” we could have for ANY belief? ? ?

What a stunning contradiction! Krayola has bastardized the application of the word “dogmatic” in applying it to a person such as myself who points at nature as a clear basis for his conclusions.

THE TRUTH is that Krayola who rejects the evidence of nature WITHOUT ANY BASIS, is the only one being dogmatic here! ! !

No; I will not listen to him on this!

Now look at this terrible statement from Krayola again -

When he says that Hunger is not sinful, but that gluttony is sinful – he thereby admits that EXCESSES are what should be regarded as sinful.

So why is he shy of applying that very logic to se.x and reach the conclusion that only excess se.x is sinful? ? ? You see, Krayola is not being honest here! ! !

Instead he states that the issue is about abstention from se.x before marriage. To this I respond –

WHAT ABOUT A PERSON WHO NEVER GETS MARRIED? ? ? ?

Answer me on that!

Mavenb0x:
Thanks JeSoul.

Deep Sight: Hahaha true enough you lost on time twice, but you were already "swept" with respect to positional play, and also material value, in the games.

FALSE! That was only the case in the first game. In the third game we had barely made 5 moves each and no piece had been captured. Then i was not online for 24 hours and lost on time.

But i will redeem myself. . .

JESOUL - It is entirely and altogether impossible to listen to Krayola on this one, my dear.

Let's have a look at what he has put on the table -

But first neither he nor your eminent self have cared to address this –

Deep Sight:
Krayola - CRUCIALLY -

And again the whole doctrine presupposes that everybody will get married at some point in their lives.

This is NOT true. Many people wander though life unable to find a befitting partner. What then? Life long celibacy? Surely even you will laugh at such a suggestion, Krayola.

Do not tell me that it is an individual matter only because -

1. The dogma affects many innocent people by causing them to feel a terrible burden of guilt for the simple fact that they are normal human sexual beings

2. In many societies in the past and even conservative islamic societies up till today, people were and have been stoned to death, ostracized, burnt to death, etc for the simple fact that they did what comes naturally to everybody - they had intimacy.

How do these twin facts appear to you? ? ?

It is thus vitally important that civil society guards against such dangerous dogma very actively.

Note particularly the fact that not every person gets married.

Is it YOUR considered Christian view that christians who do not get married should spend the whole of their lives never having s.ex AT ALL?

I am going to presume on your behalf that you are able to see how scandalous and anti-natural such a proposition should be. That a human being born a sexual creature would spend an entire lifetime repressing the sexual instinct.

Now under your dogma, the only way ANY HUMANBEING would be able to avert this terrible fate is to get married. Thus certain people will per force end up marrying partners they care little for. . . just to avoid a lifetime sentence of celibacy. . .how does that sound to you? ? ?

More crucially Krayola has failed to revert to me on these crucial posers –

1. The dogma affects many innocent people by causing them to feel a terrible burden of guilt for the simple fact that they are normal human sexual beings

2. In many societies in the past and even conservative islamic societies up till today, people were and have been stoned to death, ostracized, burnt to death, etc for the simple fact that they did what comes naturally to everybody - they had intimacy.

Tell me why people should suffer a burden of guilt for expressing their sexuality ? ? ?

I will never accept that such makes any sense or is healthy in any terms in a rational society.


The truth is that all these myths and restraints are already on their way out of the human psyche as enlightenment spreads – you will hardly meet many Europeans who have these perceptions and I bet you that in another 100 years you will struggle hard to find such views ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Wanna bet?

Krayola said –

clinging to some natural basis for decision making regardless of how badly it holds up under scrutiny is, IMO, dogmatic

This is bizarre in the extreme. Especially since he had already defined dogma as belief without evidence or reason. He here insinuates that when I point out the natural world and natural instincts that is dogmatic? Is the natural world not the best “evidence” and “reason” or “basis” we could have for ANY belief? ? ?

What a stunning contradiction! Krayola has bastardized the application of the word “dogmatic” in applying it to a person such as myself who points at nature as a clear basis for his conclusions.

THE TRUTH is that Krayola who rejects the evidence of nature WITHOUT ANY BASIS, is the only one being dogmatic here! ! !

No; I will not listen to him on this!

Now look at this terrible statement from Krayola again -

intimacy isn't deemed sinful. . .premarital intimacy is . . Hunger isn't deemed sinful, but gluttony is.

When he says that Hunger is not sinful, but that gluttony is sinful – he thereby admits that EXCESSES are what should be regarded as sinful.

So why is he shy of applying that very logic to se.x and reach the conclusion that only excess se.x is sinful? ? ? You see, Krayola is not being honest here! ! !

Instead he states that the issue is about abstention from se.x before marriage. To this I respond –

WHAT ABOUT A PERSON WHO NEVER GETS MARRIED? ? ? ?

Answer me on that!

[quote author=tpia. link=topic=399034.msg5528884#msg5528884 date=1266395594]traditional African culture and religion doesnt support premarital intimacy, so I dont see where "borrowed" religion comes in here.

Do you have any comments about the traditional practice of spreading a white bedsheet on the wedding night, which is then inspected carefully and used to judge the bride on the basis of her virginity or lack of it? Isnt that a cultural practice? How many men protested this custom in the past?

and single mothers are still looked down on by most naija males. Any comments on that?

Likewise let a girl mention she had one or more abortions in the past, to her naija partner, and see how fast the guy develops cold.

all these attitudes are a result of religion, you say? [/quote]The FACT remains that all those rooting for abstention here are not doing so on the basis of their traditional religion but on the basis of what THEIR BIBLE SAYS.

At all events the point remains the same. Whether from the bible or local tradition, supressing natural sexual urges is UNNATURAL.

Krayola -

Please understand me right: everyone is absolutely free to do as they please with their own sexual lives. I have no problems with freewill in that regard. What i have repeatedly tried to point out to you is that i have a problem with the BASIS of such decisions. If people abstain from s.ex because it is bad for their health, because it is too much exercise, because they don’t have a desirable partner, etc, i am at home with this. But you and i know very well that the reason for abstinence in terms of this thread is ONE REASON AND ONE DETESTABLE REASON ONLY  -

THAT THEIR BORROWED RELIGION CRIMINALIZES PRE MARITAL S.EX.

This i find appalling for the very reason that s.ex is a natural instinct which the processes of the body show clearly was intended by nature to be carried out with reasonable regularity.

Can you imagine a similar natural instinct such as hunger being declared sinful? That is surely an affront to nature and common and obvious reason. I regard s.ex as being just as natural and compelling as eating food. You can thus appreciate the level of bizarreness with which i view the attempts at abstention - especially given the indicated BASIS for such abstention.

Let us look at a natural instinct which i think is most similar to the sexual instinct: one that you can surely have no problems with as an example. The instinct to scratch your skin when it itches. You feel an itch. It pricks you. You reach out to assuage it by scratching your skin.

This is perfectly similar to the sexual instinct. You feel a sexual itch - an urge. You reach out to assuage the itch by consummation, or in the absence of a partner people will even masturbate. Can you imagine how ridiculous it will be if people developed a religion that told them it was wrong to scratch their skin in response to an itch until a certain date in their lives? It is quite simply a religious injunction that is completely at odds with the simple prescriptions of nature!

In the same way you can see that my views are not unfounded. I am at severe pains to imagine why a religion would impose on people the need to resist natural itches such as the clearly beneficial and wholesome sexual urge.

Religion is a terrible thing indeed.

jagunlabi:
Having seks with the one you love is the physical celebration of that which is both ethereal and sacred, LOVE.So in that sense, the act of seks is also sacred, whether done offcially married with papers or not.To turn this sacred act into a sin is an act of blasphemy.

Brilliant again.

Where is Krayola? Jesoul?

Perhaps if you instinctively reject anything said by Deep Sight maybe Jagunlabi & M_Nwankwo's deeper sights above can get the point across to you.

Quote from M-Nwankwo -

Only genuine love attracts the power of God and consecrates such a union. Whether or not such a union is blessed by legal, cultural or religious ceremony is irrelavant and of no consequence spiritually.

Brilliant!

GBAM! GBAM!! GBAM!!!

Just what i've been trying to communicate!

Wwhat do you make of this one Jesoul?

jagunlabi:
Bottomline, what is wrong with making love with the one you LOVE?Why do i need a farcking piece of paper and a pastor's permit to do that?Folks need to wake up,really.

Brilliant.

Oya, over to you Jesoul; answer this.

_{Christian perspective, we dont mind.}

debosky:
Then I wonder how you lived till 17-18 before having tercourse

Who told you i waited that long?

There was this fat black ghanaian woman who. . .

Krayola:
Our collective survival is not the responsibility of any individual.

But individuals inherit survival instincts that promote GROUP PERPETUATION. SCIENTIFIC FACT.

And even if this urge is instinctive as u claim, and WAS necessary for our collective survival, it isn't necessary for our collective survival anymore.

Nonsense. (Sorry to say that, you are my friend).

Nature gives instincts as needed. If nature has given an instinct for the purpose of survival of a species, the instinct will NOT dissapear simply because that species has developed technology that takes care or the need.

If dogs develop articifial insemination machines tomorrow, will they cease to go on heat? ? ?

So either way your argument ends up in the pit latrine.

Think again son.

Krayola:
The fact that it it necessary for my individual survival. I do a lot more than eat, you know? not sure about u  

Please give me a break joooor. Is s.ex not necessary for our collective survival?

Why the escapism? ? ?

debosky:
Is natural instinct making you post on nairaland now?

If you fail to post on nairaland, what will be the consequence?

Don't make circular arguments - natural instinct covers essential life support activities - eating, breathing, discharging waste, but nothing beyond that is governed only on instinct.

STOP LYING DEBOLA.

SE.X is, always has been, and always will be an essential life activity.

Deny that, hypocrite.