₦airaland Forum

Stupedinluv:
Lol Are you saying people believe before they are born? Is believing not a spiritual fruit or something of such?

Hmmm.

PrOblem, pls which one comes first: Get birthed first and then believe or believe first and be born. Later sounds ridiculous now that i think of it.

The latter, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, is the case.

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that GOD hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Belief in Jesus is prerequisite to obtaining salvation and being identified as a child of GOD. You cannot claim to be a child of GOD if you don't believe in Jesus Christ.

Stupedinluv,

It is also pertinent to clarify what freewill is and what it is not.

Freewill is the ability to choose between options. Pursuant to our discussion, freewill is the ability to choose to be saved. Freewill is not the ability to be saved.

For example, your parents ask you "do you want to go to the university?" There are two choices: either you say yes or you say no. However, that you said yes does not mean that you're the one to get yourself through the university. Your parents are the ones to sponsor you. So you see, saying "yes" makes your parents swing into the action of making sure you get through the university, albeit with your own cooperation(because if you disobey the school, you can be rusticated).

There are two choices before all men(2 Pet. 3:9): being saved and being lost. If you say "yes" to GOD by believing in Jesus Christ, GOD swings into the action of making sure you are saved by cleansing and adopting you into His family. You can then be said to be born of GOD.(Jn. 1:13).

Stupedinluv:
I mean for the holyspirit to state that man's will or flesh isnt involved in his spiritual birth, doesnt that speak of foreknowing that some christians in future (which is now) will want to ascribe salvation to their willing power instead of God's thereby taking some of the glory of salvation?

The Spirit of God is wise and all knowing

You're getting it all wrong. Now look at it: Jn. 1:12 say if any man believe in GOD, he is given power to become a son of GOD. Now, a son doesn't fall from the air: he has to be born. And GOD acknowledges that in verse 13. However, that particular person is said to be born of GOD.

Sonship to GOD is not what carnal birth can impart, nor something one can achieve on his own. You believe in GOD, and you are reborn: this time not according to the will of man but of GOD.

Compare these things with 1 Jn. 3:9; Psa. 2:7.

raphieMontella:
do you really vouch for this? That there are no contradictions in the bible? Should i create a thread for you to defend this statement?

Yes. Do.

Stupedinluv:
Okay thanks. But i hope you dont mind me asking you what Jesus meant when he told his disciples that they didnt choose him but he chose them?

(Lets focus on the new testament, since thats where we have the clearest meaning of salvation and how it comes about)

Again, John 1:13 expressely said, those who were born of the spirit were not born of the will of man but of God. Was that a mistake because vs 12 said 'those who receive him...'? How do you interpret those verses without ruling out God's will?

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit..." Jn. 15:16. This verse is reminiscent of Israel. GOD chose them to bring forth fruit of obedience so that the gentiles can learn from them and glorify GOD. But we know that they chose not to.

Jesus simply tells His disciples that He was the one that chose them to represent Him. Those who believe in Him are said to be born of GOD.

driy65:
Guy, run ur own spiritual race and leave mine....hw many souls av u won for christ?? instead u are soo fixated on catholics and their activities..leave ur life and let others live thiers .stop takin ur fustration or lack of self satisfaction on others...i av no business with ur pentecostal vieews

Okay. I wish you all the best.

driy65:
I don't know why protestant and pentecostal on nairaland like robbing in catholics in any discussion....a church dat has existed 4 two thousand yrs with over 1.3 billion members..??..y dnt u build up your faith and stop rubbin your frustrations on catholics ??...na envy go finish una..

This is not about churches. This is about the salvation of your soul. This is about obeying GOD. Judaism had existed for about 2 thousand years before Christ came and abolished it.

By the time you realise that the way that leads into destruction is broad, and that many people go in it, you'll think again about large populations.

martin98:
First of all, the Catholic Church also baptise by immersion. The Catholic Church baptise in three ways. By immersion, by sprinkling and by pouring.
To your point about baptism only by immersion, take a look at the baptism of the jailer and his household in the night. How could they have possibly baptise by immersion at that time.

Acts 16:34 tells us that the baptism was not done inside the house, and so not by sprinkling. Nobody even knew what sprinkling was then and Paul certainly knew that pouring water on someone was not baptism. If it was done by sprinkling, there wouldn't have been any need to go outside the house as Paul would've just taken a cup of water sprinkled on them. We don't know whether the baptism was done in a pool or whatever, but we know it was done outside the house and so it was by immersion.

The method of pouring/sprinkling was introduced much later by the catholic church, and it's not biblical.

Stupedinluv:
nawa o. Thats what i thought too but what i am seeing in the bible is different. Maybe because i am not reading meaning into singular verses like i use to? but reading everything nd making sure there are no contradictions.

Hmm. There are no contradictions in the Bible, one will see, if s/he studies the Bible prayerfully with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is its own concordance. What you read in one place might be explained in another place.

Just invite the Holy Spirit whenever you want to read the Bible and He will make all things clear to you.

Ioannes:
The Church shifted the day of Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday popularly known as the day of the Lord to honour the day he resurrected from the dead.

Compare this statement you made with Dan. 7:25. Who do you think that verse is talking about?

The catholic church adopted Sunday as a day of worship in conformity with paganism. Forget the lies they tell you that it was done in honour of Christ's resurrection(which He didn't tell us to do). Emperor Constantine wormed his way into the church and made Sunday a mandatory day of rest in honour of the sun god. Read please.

Ioannes:
OK. My last one. (Couldn't resist. You're like a sitting duck in a barrel for me)

The Church shifted the day of Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday popularly known as the day of the Lord to honour the day he resurrected from the dead.

How can they do that? Because he gave them the power to. "What you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven..." remember?

2. Where and how does the Church teach others to disregard the commandments? Wait lemme guess, somebody told you right? Or worse you read it in a book somewhere.

How about you ask Catholics what they believe instead of asking anti-catholics what catholics believe.

"My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." Psa. 89:34. GOD spake the 10 Commandments (Exod. 20:1). Who told you that anybody can change His words?

Do you know anything about covenants and ratification?

Ioannes,

The catholic church slaughtered well over 50 million people during the dark ages for refusing to conform to her abominable practices. Surely the Holy Spirit was with her when she was doing this?

The Bride of Christ is not the catholic church. The catholic church is the adulterous woman of Revelation 17. (Read and understand). Many people think they will enter Heaven because of their church. Sadly, they'll be disappointed.

The Bride of Christ are those who keep the commandments of GOD and have the testimoney of Jesus Christ. (Rev. 12:17; 14:12).

GOD bless you.

Amaga:
In that case, it would be more acceptable if you had said the Catholic Church is 'trying to' lead millions to hell. Rather you said the Church is 'leading' millions to hell. Do you see where you got it wrong?

Forgive my not-excellent command of the english language, but I'm saddened by the fact that the catholic church is hiding the truth from people and deceiving millions. Not only the catholic church, but also all other churches which teach and practise things contrary to the Bible.

Ioannes:
I'm sorry.

If we are doing this then we have to do it properly.

I don't debate on issues based on beer parlor gist with no basis nor foundation.

If you say the Church doesn't keep God's commandments you have to be specific. Which commandments? There are ten of them you know.

As per keeping Sabbath, what do you mean? Please be specific.

And teaching others to disregard the commandments...?

Seems you really don't have anything. You're just throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks.

Fine. Since you now want to feign ignorance of what I'm talking about:

1. Why do you not keep the 10 Commandments of GOD and His Seventh-day weekly Sabbath?

2. Why do you teach others to disregard the 10 Commandments of GOD?

Ioannes,

The Catholic church may have compiled the Bible but surely she is practising what the same Bible describes as strange.

The Holy Spirit was with the church when she compiled the Bible, but was not with her when she was killing the saints of GOD like Jerome, Huss, Knox, Luther and Tyndale for practising the Bible.

The Holy Spirit can leave when He is no longer welcome.

By the way, the catholic church did not place the Bible in my hands. She actually tried all she could to hide it from me. But GOD, in His infinite mercy, through heroes like Wycliffe and Luther gave me the Bible.

Amaga:
You are funny. You are not the one to decide who will go to Heaven but you already know those being led to hell.

Anybody that makes you disobey GOD is trying to lead you into destruction.

Amaga:
I didn't misquote you. You said it yourself that the Catholic Church is leading millions to hell. You have no right to judge. That's my point. If you cannot accept that you were wrong for judging who goes to hell or not, how can you then accept to listen and learn?

Yes. The catholic church is leading millions into hell. It's very sad.

However, I am not the one to decide who will make Heaven.

Ioannes:
What does the church practice that is contradictory to the Bible? Give me one.

But then I guess what you want to be asking is why does the church practice what is contradictory to your own interpretation of the Bible?

So maybe you ought to rephrase the question.

1. Why do you not keep GOD's commandents and His Sabbath?

2. Why do you teach others to disregard GOD's commandments?

Stupedinluv,

We choose to be saved and we choose to be lost. When we accept Jesus Christ into our lives and begin to bear fruits meet for repentance, we have been born of GOD, according to John 1:13.

Romans 9:16 makes us understand that no one can be saved or make Heaven by his/her own power.

GOD has not reserved salvation for some people, and damnation for the others. Those who will be saved are those who accept GOD's invitation, and then run this Christian race with His help.

The writers of the Bible: Moses, Joshua, Samuel, Ezra, Nehemiah, David, Asaph, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Nahum, Micah, Jonah, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter and James and others were never catholics.

I don't know what authority the catholics claim to have over the Scriptures.

tete7000:
Mumu!

Good night.

tete7000:
They put together books that were also written to some churches already in existence and you claim the church didn't exist before those compilation. Maybe you don't know what you called bible is a compilation. They determine books to compile. They held the books you claim they didn't believe in for over 1500yrs until martin luther came and revealed them to you. Before luther no truth you believed. All before luther were damned. Just go and sleep. I won't reply you again after this. Sleep well.

If I am correct, the organization called the catholic church came into existence after the bishop of rome was made the head of all churches by a pagan emperor.(LOL).

Don't try to make it look like the catholic church wrote the Bible.

I wonder if this brother doesn't know that the Holy Spirit can leave when He is no longer welcome.

Ioannes:
Two things:

First I notice you conveniently sidestepped my question. No problem. It's still going to come back and bite you in the @ss soon enough.

Second, it's hilarious that you'd rather conclude that the Catholic Church was given the Holy Spirit to compile the books of the Scripture but weren't given the Holy Spirit to interpret it. Funny right?

So here's it again. Its either the Catholic Church has the Holy Spirit to compile the Bible in which case She also has the Holy Spirit to interpret it which means the Bible is authentic and true, OR

The Catholic Church doesnt have the Holy Spirit now, which means it didn't when it was compiling the Bible, which means we can't trust that the Bible is free from error.

Which one do you settle for. Those are the only options and I'm baffled at times that Protestants don't even think about it this way.

And I ask: why does the church practise what is contradictory to the Bible she compiled? Answer me.

tete7000:
You want to begin teach me history of the bible again after I just showed you your knowledge of history is shallow? Oga, go and sleep. You have nothing to teach me. Good night.

Can you dispute any of the things I wrote? Did the Catholic church write the Bible? Did they not simply put the books together?

Good night.

tete7000:
It changes the fact that you are not knowledgeable enough to teach what you supposedly claim to know.

I already made it clear that I do not count myself to have apprehended.

However, I know enough to detect the paganism and absolute corruption practised in the catholic church.

tete7000:
I have heard you. The holy Spirit resides in the church and operates through it. In as much as I believe each person should study the bible, the church through its headship resolves issues when controversy arises. In the bible itself, you see that when the apostle convened to resolve the issue of circumcision among the gentiles. If all begins to carry bible, read and give interpretation as desired, we end up with confusion. Something already prevalent among us. The church compiles the bible, the church existed before the bible, the church has authority to interprete the bible. That is my take.

The books of the Bible existed before the church. The church simply put them together.

The church doesn't have the authority to interprete the Bible wrongly for material gain. The Holy Spirit is given to every believer, and He interpretes the Bible to them.

I wish you well. And I pray that you'll realise soonest that nobody will be admitted into Heaven by church.

tete7000:
Read my link! Luther was a church's monk, after the reformation, he left the church, got married and continued to be a minister elsewhere. The church separated from church were built on his theology. He started the rebellion and continued to be the focal point after the split for the luthrians. He provided the theological foundation on which their church was founded. How can you now say he did found a church? Stop living in denial. A thorough study of your history will help you. Your problem is you already chose what to believe.

Fine. What does that change? Does it change the fact that Luther was a pious man through whom GOD worked to bring light to people and dispel the darkness of catholic teachings?

Ioannes:
First you admit that the compiler of Sacred Scriptures is the Catholic Church, then you go ahead and tell me it doesn't give them the right to interpret it. Wow.

If we can both agree that the Catholic church compiled the bible then here's the implication.

It's either the Catholic Church is divinely guided by the Holy Spirit and there is infallible in all matters of morals and faith which makes the bible authentic and free from error OR

the Catholic is filled with errors which means it isn't divinely protected from making mistakes in matters of faith and morals, therefore there's no assurance that the Bible is free from errors since it was compiled by fallible Church magisterium.

Oya, pick one.

It is funny that the Catholic church doesn't abide by the Bible she compiled as a creed of doctrine.

Can it be that the Spirit that led her to compile the Bible is no longer in her?

tete7000:
You can allude anything you like to those scriptures. Why should I believe you when ordinary history of the lutheran church you don't even know. Is it your interpretation of the most complicated book in the scripture I should now rely on? Definitely No. He who is not faithful in little things,Jesus said can't be trusted with big things. He who lacks understanding of mundane history can't be my bible teacher. I wish you luck on your journey to heaven.

Don't believe me, please. I only beg one thing of you: Please, read the Bible for yourself and ask the holy spirit to open your eyes. Do that, in comparison with history. "My people perish for lack of knowledge."

I am not a qualified Bible teacher. I do not count myself to have apprehended. I strive to know more.

I pray that one day the Holy Spirit will open your eyes.

Amaga:
'Broad is the way that leads to destruction' does not give us the right judge and say who goes to hell or not.

However, it tells us that the way the leads to destruction contains many people.

Don't ever misquote me: I have not condemned catholics. I have not said that all catholics will go to hell. There are people who are worshipping GOD in all sincerity according to the light they have in the catholic church. Jesus said that He has sheep in many other folds, and He must bring them out from the wrong folds, and unite them in obedience to Him.

tete7000:
Luther started a reformation that led to a split and the formation of the lutheran church. Google can help you. I am posting a link here for your education: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism.
Learn first before seeking to educate others. If you are not in the lutheran church, I insist again you are an hypocrite. Luther didn't start pentecostalism of today.

Yes. Among the protestant churches are the Lutherans. However, Luther never personally founded a church and called it by his name.

You can call me a hypocrite. The Pharisees called Jesus Beelzebub. If I am a hypocrite for preaching the Bible, then I glory in my hypocrisy.