₦airaland Forum

shadeyinka:
I think I understand you. The punishment seems extreme for a sin of rebellion committed under a space of 100 years.

But, I didn't make the rules and sometimes, secretly, I wish something could be done about it.

But I think as a Physicist you can understand the concept of time.

In the spirit rhelm, time doesn't exist. Time is meaningless. In such an environment, 100 billion earth years may be like 20 minutes in "heavens" time and vise versa.

I believe the concept of eternity is in the framework of timeless existence.

Finally, even though the bible did not expressly teach this, I believe that the punishment of hell is not the same for all men. My justification is that if the righteous will have varying rewards, it makes sense based on the law of justice that punishments will be in proportion to the offence. But, this is just my speculation and I could be far from the truth about this.

I do understand the concept of Time and sincerely from all logical points of view, Hell cannot exist without the concept of Time.

In physics, Time is just the sequence of events, as long as events occur, then time has occured, and so if we want to use a framework where events happen but no time exist, then we are heading to a paradox, but lets just say for the sake of argument, that time is different and 100billion years on earth is 20minutes in Hell or the spiritual world, as long as the events taking place in Hell never ends, you cant shy away from it, it is Infinity, in other words Eternity.

I am sure you have heard of Infinities inside Infinities, and Actual infinities, stuffs like that.

This idea describes it, so if someone is feeling pain in hell and that pain would never stop, then it is for eternity no matter how you measure it relating to time on earth.

Just as they are infinite decimal numbers between 0 and 1, doesnt mean there are no infinite whole numbers, so likewise this.

Then above has been discussed above however, this your statement makes sense if the gap between the judge and the convict is not great.

In this respect, the gap between man and animals is not too great. Therefore, in killing mammals even for food most humans show some measure of concern. We want to give the animal as painless a death as possible.

As the gap between judge and condemned becomes higher empathy doesn't come into the equation. How many billions of bacteria's have you killed in the name of disinfecting your toilet, bathroom and utensils?

Have you once bothered to find out if these bacteria's are feeling terrible pain? We don't even bat an eye that we killed millions of bacteria's just trying to survive. No iota of guilty conscience over a mass murder!

If God could be described in Physical terms, He must be by size at least the size of an average galaxy. (Assuming a single person can build a facility 1000 times bigger than his size). This means that we should be like the size of electrons to God. If God was to be quantified in terms of Age, he must be some trillion years old and by comparison, we humans will be like a transient occurrence.

The point is, if God is infinitely bigger than us, why should He feel anything about consigning " these insignificant rebellious humans" to hell.

You seem to be making my point for me.

First,If God is so infinitely larger than us that he cannot comprehend our feeble emotions, and reasonings and mistakes and triumphs, then why worship such a being that obviously cannot relate with you on a personal level but demands so much as to giving him your entire life?

Second, If God is so infinitely larger than us, why should he care whether we worship him or not, and why should he care about what we do or what we dont do, I dont see humans giving a bat's eye what a bateria does or does not do, infact we dont care and even if those bateria worships us, they would be wasting their time and energy because we would not notice it even a single bit!

Third, You seem to acknowledge that God is tyrannical in his rule over us and noone should question him, but when i say the same thing point black, i am reprimanded by you and others like gaelllic. What is the difference between "God being so great that if you offended him,you would burn for all of eternity" and "God is a tyrant"?

Rebellion against One who is infinitely greater than you may provoke an extreme judgement.

Historically, the greater a king, the more extreme his punishment against rebellion against him. Eg
Vlad Dracula of Wallachia, Roman Crucifixion etc.

The point seems to be "how dare you rebel against your creator!"

Thank you.

You just stated the exact reason for a belief in such a barbaric act.

The originators of the concept of Hell lived in a society where the peasants dare not offend the rich, lords and the kings, if you did, you hands could be chopped off or tongue sliced off or eyes plucked out.

These was the culture and tradition and so when they taught of the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE who is far grander than any king, lord or Noble, they imagined the punishment against such a being would be infinitely greater than what they were accustomed to.

That's how the concept of Hell prevailed, but like many things, these ancient cultures were extremely wrong and primitive so to say, and they imposed their primitiveness on their creator.

Modern day intellectuals like you still hold these primitive ideas that survived from a different time,different world and different culture and defend it even though you know deep within your heart its a barbaric and primitive idea or concept.

But God is not the Father of everybody...but He is the God of everything!

Well,That's still debatable.

shadeyinka:
..and the reason is because you desire a SLAVE and not a FRIEND from your car invention. Love and friendship conly occur when there is freedom of choice.



In this your case case above, you didn't have any right over her in the first place. You don't own her! A dog however may be a close enough example.

You bought a dog as a companion in your household and this dog reacts violently to anything that is dear to you. The least you will do to that dog is to chain it down.

You will not chain down a girl for not loving you..except something is wrong with you!




First, God is a Spirit and except you are in the spirit rhelm (which happens to all after we die) you cannot see Him.
BUT
Even if God was to physically appear in the Sky once a year to all men, will it make us to love Him?
Lucifer was an Arch Angel who stayed in the presence of God; did it stop his rebellion?

Trust me, as humans, a day will arrive when we would organise a demonstration against Him if we could see Him.

And again, it is about OWNERSHIP! GOD owns us! We are not independent beings who subject our wills to Him. We were created with that purpose in view.
The car analogy is validly close.



LOL!
Tools? Noooo!
A tool is a slave! Consciousness is not even required.

Love and Submission as a selection tool for ones "INVENTION" of a concious free willed ENTITY makes sense.




"I have set before you Life and Death...chose life that you may live" Deut30:19

We all do that for our children don't we?
..clean your bedroom result= Peace
..mess up your bedroom result =Trouble

Therefore, Clean your room so that there will be no trouble!

It is called Expo for the one you love. An objective question with just a YES or NO answer. As a teacher you tell your students :
Choose YES and I will give you full marks
NO! Is the wrong answer. If you choose it, I will mark it wrong!
In the exam hall, a student is free to choose his answer. His free will is indeed free.

To mans every action there is a consequence



As explained above, God doesn't want us as tool else we would be like the planets, the stars, atoms, laws of physics etc these are the tools and not humans

shadeyinka, i must say i respect and like your intelligence into issues we discuss about, we disagree on some issues both we agree also on many issues and it is always enlightening to have discussions with you, which got me thinking, we should have a thread where we have a civil discussion just as theist and atheist and show other people how a matured, respectful and intellectual debate between a theist and an atheist should look like, kudos, i hope you do the honors.

But addressing this issue, you still havent gotten my main bone of contention, I am not saying people cant be forced to choice something that would benefit them the way our parents do.

No, on the contrary, they are cases where people should be forced and if punishment is necessary, then so be it.

My Main point, is not that God wants free agents as his tools or companions, but how far he is willing to go at it.

Lets use your dog example, a dog is a free agent in a limited way and can make some decisions on its own, if you bought a dog and it is not serving your purpose, be honest, would you go tie up the dog, beat it mercilessly to within an inch of its life, starve it for a week and then make it walk in fire 3hrs of everyday?, i am guessing your answer would be No.

Then why is God, sending free-agents with feelings and emotions to hell where there is so much agony, despair, pain and anguish; Where people are burnt every second of every minute of every hour of every single day, for the rest of all eternity just for something they did in less than a 100years and majority's only crime where just because they did not believe in the right God. Do you really think thats fair?

Bring the worst dictator that every lived and i would tell you that person doesnt deserves an eternity in hell, well maybe hitler, stalin and a few others can spend at least 100years though for the pain they caused , but NOONE and i mean NOONE deserves an eternity in hell.

I get sick when i think about it, how can a loving parent say because he wants to correct his or her child, he/she would lock the child up, torture the child, day and night using fire and starve the child for a year. Such a parent would be regarded as a psychopath and locked in prison, and if you would not condone such a parent, then why are you condoning God who is far more worse than this?

NB: Some people might read this and think its because of that reason i am an atheist(I am angry at God), but on the contrary, i dont believe in hell or in an afterlife or even in a God that sends people there, i am just trying to understand how many theists can hold the idea of a God who is loving and merciful but still sends people to burn in hell for all of eternity, it beats me.

Smallville10:
I have seriously thought about it and i then came up with a conclusion that it could be evolution and hot temprate region.
Also the bible in book of songs of solomon chapter 1 vs 6 said " dont look down on me because the sun has tanned me. My brothers were angry with me and made me work in the vineyard. I had no time to care for myself" goodnews version...
I need some one to explain if there is anyone

The question shows a systematic brainwashing of africans abd black people in general by western religion in making them believe they werent important in the grand scheme of things.

I am sure, all the pictures of adam and eve you have seen were white, jesus is also a white man, angels are white hence you wonder, where did we come from.

This is the bondage that the western religion has on blacks and it has brainwashed them that they dont even have a sense of origin or belonging.

Well, to answer you question, your hypothesis is correct, Evolution is responsible for the different pigments of skin colour we humans have, infact since the human race first evolved in africa, the first homo sapiens were black, it was a useful adaptation to prevent skin cancer, whites and asians diverged from the black ancestry.

So please, dont let your brother talk you out of knowing and thinking for yourself, break the shackles that hold many africans alike and let your thinking soar higher than the highest clouds.

gaelllic:
Every government on Earth requires citizens to 'accept its right to rule'. This is enforced by threat of violence and imprisonment. Is 'treason' a

new word to you? This supports my argument.



Be honest. Many of government's laws are not understood, but are still obeyed (e.g. marriage only lasts a month, but Mr Man has to pay alimony

for life). And the same man will balk at obeying God because he 'does not understand'. Hypocrisy.

Be honest. People are chided and victimized for not loving their country. In fact, the southeasterners of your own (I assume) country are in

this very position.



Do you know if you toss some pork sausage in front of a mosque you could easily be dead? And if you dropped some beef before a Buddha statue in India, the result could be the same? What chaos. So what rule book, precisely?

Someone must define what the standard of Good is.

Babies cry when given an injection. If they knew its purpose, they might rejoice. We are babes in God's eyes.

Thus people cry over His medicine, because they do not know its purpose.

Christianity is the One Faith, the one standard, the precise one 'rule book'.

And He is not only my God, He is God - plain and simple.

Still did not answer my question!

Let me ask again, why doesnt God judge people on how they lived on earth without considering whether they believed in him or not, and not burn them for all of ETERNITY in hell?

NB: you hardly see buddhists in india, and if i were to urinate on a cross or use the bible to smoke weed, i would still be criticized by christians, wont i?, So you cant cherrypick and say because a person from another religion gets offended because you dishonored his beliefs automatically means yours is the one true religion, thats just absolutely inaccurate.

gaelllic:
Divine Law is the rule of conduct in the Universe.

When you reject God you are immediately under the devil's influence. By default.

The government wants you to obey its authority. If you don't, there are consequences.

Go smoke crack by Louis Edet House and tell the officers there 'you're a good person'.

The scenarios are parallel. Please don't prevaricate.

Answer the question if you can.

Is it not obvious that the spirit in you yields to the authority of man, but not of God?

Why are the government not tyrants according to your opinion?

I just answered you and i would answer you again, the government are not tyrants because they do not force you to love them, infact oppressive regimes are specifically referred to as tyrants because they force their citizens to accept their right to rule.

Rules are rules, if buhari leaves office tomorrow, the rules of the country would still be the rules, everyone is suppose to follow it so that we dont live in a chaotic society.

Now, if buhari puts an embargo on Nigerians, that in addition to the laws of the land, we must love him and his party and if we dont, we would be thrown in jail, thats TYRANNY. Do you understand the difference now?

Now why cant people just live good lives, Majority of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, and even Atheists are good people and just want to do good by themselves and their fellow man BUT because they do not believe in your God YAHWEH(i would assume you to be a Christian) and his only begotten son JESUS CHRIST, they would burn in hell for all of eternity.

why cant God just allow people live by the rule book and judge people according to how they lived, why must God emphasize that these people believe, love and worship him and his son for entry into heaven?

Doesnt that sound like tyranny?

gaelllic:
By this argument every government in the world is a tyrannical dictatorship.

Since we face punishment when our choices diverge from the law.

Do you agree?

The law is how you conduct in society, if you default, you are thrown in prison...it has nothing to do with loving the government.

God wants you not only to live a good life but also love him and accept his son who died for our sins, now if you dont do this, you would burn in hell even if you were a good person all your life...doesnt that sound tyrannical to you?

shadeyinka:
The day and night is a figurative term for continuously!

The best way of understanding is comparing with what happens in a dream. Within a space of 5 min rem sleep, you could find yourself through a two year dream episode, whereas in the physical sense, its just 5 min.

In the spirit time doesn't at all. However relative to the earth, we are used to measuring time interval between events which really doesn't make any sense in the spiritual. In the spiritual the best way I can explain it in physical terms is that we can have concurrencies and overlaps of events.

LOL. John must have been confused writing the book of Revelation; how do you describe parallel events without putting them in linear form? LOL




God doesn't need anyone's worship: it doesn't add anything to him.

God requires humans who will Love Him and his fellow men unconditionally: These are the ones who meet the cretaria of SELECTION for His own pleasure. These ones can call Him (as children will do their father) Daddy-Daddy

Now, back to why should God discard the useless creations!
You spent £930,000 building for yourself the most intelligent car in the world with ability of freewill. The car is supposed to be a friend and companion whenever you ride in it. It was your pride! The Car..Your Car!

Now, you enter your car and say car (let's give the car a name-Alex): Alex, let's take a pleasure ride round the city!

And Alex says, to you "I'm I your slave? I don't feel like going no where!"... "You can take a bus for a ride if you want, but I go no where".

It finally dawns on your that your precious car is adamant and by choice refuse to cooperate with you.

After given it enough time to repent and reconsider, what will you do?

You will abandon that useless car!
If you feel like the car is cluttering your garage, you will drag it out to the scrap yard.

At the scap yard, this your expensive, self aware, independent but Arrogant car would be torn up, broken up, squeezed and mangled beyond recognition. It would be melted in the furnace with other junks.


Someone now exclaims!
Why should you destroy this beautiful expensive car. You must be wicked. Didnt you say you love your masterpiece? Why should you send it to the refuse dump?

So you see why God has to discard those who choose not to be useful to His purpose of creating them!

Any more Questions?

I understand you perfectly but i would say i am still not totally convinced about your argument.

If i was going to create an intelligent car for my pleasure, i would be sure to not give it freewill because doing that, i am no longer subjecting it to my will but its own, and so if it chooses to not obey my commands, then it is well within its rights to do so.

Now on the flip side of the coin, imagine you love a girl with all your heart, and can do anything for her but sadly she doesnt feel the same way about you, Do you lock her up in a dungeon and torture her because she doesnt love you?...only a psychopath would do that.

Look at another scenario, a queen who never shows herself to her subjects and remain hidden for the public eye claims she doesnt need anybodys love and admiration, but every sunday, all her subjects are required to show love and admiration to her with gifts, and those who do not do that are thrown into a dungeon she ordered built for that specific purpose and torture them till they die.

The idea of we being tools for God fails when freewill is thrown into the equation, because as a free agent you choose whether you want to be a tool or not, and if you are punished because you choose otherwise, then obviously the choice is there to override the freewill.

What i mean is if i offer you two choices, and one of those choices leds to a severe punishment but you are free to choose anyone, i am automatically trying to override your freewill because i am forcing you to choose the choice without punishment.

So if God really wanted us as tools, he shouldnt have given us freewill, and if he wanted free agents to be tools for him, he shouldnt threaten with the punishment of hell because then he no longer have free agents.

Thats the paradox, bro...

shadeyinka:
God created some special class of creatures with free will. The first is
Angels: created to be servants to Him
Man: created to be his "babies"

Angels were to Serve Him by their choice
Men were to Love Him by their choice.

I guess God did NOT want Robots: the peak of creations will need autonomy.
Which do you think is greater in sophistication; a preprogrammed robot or a self programming robot?



Like I said before:
Time is an illusion of the physical space. In the time-space of the spiritual, time doesn't exist. A trillion years using the earths time space is extremely long, but in the spirit realm, time doesn't have a meaning. Moreover, spirits cannot die!




He didn't create us to serve Himself!
He created us and gave us guidelines which will lead us to a life of Love to Him and to each other. That is why the greatest commandment is about Love to God and Love to Man.

To Love is a choice we all make and Love CANNOT be Forced





No! LOL
God doesn't need anyone's worship. Those who Love Him worship Him because they see that He was the one who actually loved them First and due to the greatness of His majesty.


The only test or prove for LOVE is choices you make by your FREEWILL

You say time is an illusion, so how do you explain the punishment of hell? Not happening because anything happening is already a function of time. I dont really understand that part and the bible also said in Revelations 20: 10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So please clarify!


Then your last point was that God doesnt need anyone to worship or love him, my simple question is why does he now punish those who doesnt?

myboy2010:
point of correction, the world was created some 6000 years ago nt 13.8 billion as atheist like you do say

If the world was created 6000years old, why are they trees older than 6000years old?

I think you need science in your life...

adjoviomole:
If evolution was true den, humans should be able to grow back amputated limbs. Since it is blivd dat we evolved frm something dat had no arm or legs nor head, den it should not be impossible for evolution to regrow limbs in human.



Over to the wise men!

*clapping*...genius, wow, you have dismantled evolution is one minute, why ddnt i think of that?, i now denounce evolution...

You are the MVP dude....

shadeyinka:
Who says God is the Parent of everyone.

To those who Believe in His name He gave the Power to become Sons of God...I am sure you have read that before.

God is a God of Everything but He is not the Father of everything. God is the Creator who desires a special trait of His creations He chose to give Free Will or Volition.

When a person is NOT useful to God, He is discarded into Gods refuse Dump.

It should be easy to understand:
Suppose as a scientist, you genetically produced some bacterias who were designed to boost the immune system of cows. Now after building these bacteria's you discover that the bacteria's even though ALL have capabilities to do your bidden, only a few consistently do it.

Would it be wrong to filter these bacteria's for your purpose?
Should you keep the useless bacteria's as a trophy or destroy them?

The concept of forever is NOT as in the earth's tick tock time. In eternity, time doesn't exist so here on earth, it looks like billions of years but in actual sense, time doesn't exist.

God loves the World in a generic sense: many are called but few are chosen.. SELECTION!

I guess you understand this above:
If God is as great as He is described then we will be like viruses compared to Him

Any Question?

Yes bro, i do have lot of questions

If God wanted to use us for something, why did he give us freewill in the first place?

If God wants to discard the unuseful bunch, why doesnt he destroy them, why must he torture them for all of eternity?

If he wants us to serve him, why did he keep himself in hiding for 13.8billion years?

Why is God so egocentric that he needs you praise and worship to reward you and if you dont give him that, he punishes you, isnt that petty?, he is the creator of the universe as you would claim, i feel the creator of the universe should have better things to do than to keep a tab of those who dont worship him!

ROCK100:
Sir, there is no other god but the God in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ.
Even your scientists say Africans are dark-skinned for a specific purpose.
We are talking about the God Whose Name is otherwise known as WISDOM.
Please enlighten yourself here: https://www.reference.com/science/africans-black-skin-7ff23aa3a3150497

God bless you!

Did you read the link you pasted?...scientists are explaining how africans have black skin using Evolution.

Anyways back to topic, so God and his son Jesus christ and all the angels are white and they just made africans black because they wanted variety, according to you right?

So jesus is a white man with blue eyes and pointed nose...and just by chance happened to look like all other portraits of him but with a little variation.

I see...

I wonder when we africans would have sense

shadeyinka:
No! It's more like your parents sent you to the medical school knowing that you will face a lot of stress and examinations which the probability of failing is high

My parents dont lock me in a dungeon they built and flog me everyday for the rest of my life because i failed the exam and say they still love me.

An armed robber says your money or your life, and you refuse to give him your money and then he shoots you and claims it was your choice...

That seems like what i am reading...

Gpdwise:
science is growing and new findings are discovered everyday. what will you do if science proves that God exist and you no longer alive to witness this ground breaking discovery. what will now be your faith.. science with all its sophistication can't even tell you what causes GRAVITY

You see what i mean, Bad science.

You already have a preconceived notion that God exists and his responsible for everything and it clouds your judgement on things.

You believe science is going to discover God but what if it doesnt?, what if in the future science finds a naturalistic explanation for the beginning of the universe and reality. A true scientists always puts his ideas on trials and always think about alternatives, have you thought about the alternative if science doesnt discovered God, or are you so dogmatic that you would never accept such outcome?.

Then finally, science doesnt have all the answers but it is our best bet for finding out what is true about the universe, no other enterprise has been able to do what it has done, not even religion.

shadeyinka:
But with such changes, life may not even have started in the first place. You also need to factor in time and phases of the reactions if evolution was true anyway. Its not just aboutbthe constituent's but the right sequence of changes in atmospheric parameters.


It is actually futile discussing creationism from Biological point of view since biology can only take reference from several billion years after the big bang

@bolded, i really doubt that, Life started as fast as it could in an environment very hostile on a very young earth, i believe given the right conditions and ingredients, Life has started multiple times in the galaxy

You know if we were special, we would be made of uncommon stuff, but we are made of the most abudant elements in the universe, Hydrogen, oxygen, Carbon, Nitrogen, phosphorus...

If you want a complex chemistry, those are the elements you would use, and we are made from it, Life is just one of the inevitable effects of carbons powers.

If life was based on a chemistry that was hard to find in the universe, then we have an indirect clue that intelligence was involved, but no, so if life here was created by abundant elements and it arose as fast as it could (200million years on earth given that the galaxy is 10billion years), you can imagine the sheer number of planets that would have different forms of life on it now.

Gpdwise:
Fred Hoyle is the atheist astronomer who coined the term “Big Bang.” He once confessed that his disbelief was “greatly shaken” by the undisputed science, writing that“a common-sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with the physics, as well as with chemistry and biology.”

The fanatical atheists are like slaves who arestill feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who – in their grudge against traditional religion as the ‘opium of the masses’ – cannot hear the music of the spheres.”“I’m not an atheist,”added Einstein.“Theproblem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have writtenthose books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws.”

Illustrious NASA scientist (and agnostic) Dr. Robert Jastrow (1925-2008) put it this way:“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have beensitting there for centuries.”

First of all, i dont find evidence for the God of christians or any other God and so i dont believe in any of those Gods.

Does that mean i know for sure that there is no God or force behind it all?, No, i cant know that, but i prefer to wait for the evidence.

Now, it seems to me, that theists already come to the table with a preconceived notion that God exists and so any finding is attributed to him or she or it.

That seems like bad science in my point of view, it is better to come with a clean slate and always begin with a plausible answer and if and only if that fails before jumping into extraordinary ones.

The idea that an intellectual is behind the creation of the universe when we have found no evidence whatsoever in the universe for intelligence except for us humans, is an extraordinary claim and it needs extraordinary evidence.

Lennycool:
While I agree with most of what you wrote, there's one part that I have to say is incorrect. Belief is not harmless as you say, it can be very dangerous, the belief that there is a euphoric after life filled with Virgins is what gives a suicide bomber courage to carry out his self destruction, in total disregard to the self preservation present in all organic beings, a belief that is so strong it completely rewires what thousands of years of evolution has imbedded in man, that is amazing, that is belief. Similarly belief is what caused crusades that has annihilated thousands in the name of religion, they believed they were fighting a holy war for God. A being powerful enough to create the entire universe, but apparently is unable to wage and win his own battles.
So belief is not harmless, it can rather be very deadly.

I agree with what you said, i think my use of the terms were confusing.

What you described here is what i termed superstition, that is actions carried out rooted in unverified beliefs.

What i meant by "beliefs are not harmless" are just ideas that has no relation to reality, like belief in santa clause, God, heaven, afterlife, bigfoot, spirits e.t.c

When one start acting out in a way due to those beliefs, then it becomes superstition and is very very dangerous.

But i agree with you all the way.

lordnicklaus:
@johnydon22. Thank you for the reference to my thread. The ancients all took a step in explaining the mysteries that have confounded us for centuries, all penned down by thinking minds and accredited to the inspiration of a supreme universal order known as God. The Sumerians might have started this search by the observation of the expanse and also developing mathematics to provide answers but at the same time claiming to have come in contact with divine beings who provided them with explicit knowledge regarding the creation of the cosmos. As for the notion of "creation from nothingness", such is probably a misunderstanding and misconception on the part of some theists who see the Big Bang theory as threat to faith. The Big Bang proposes the idea of a universe originating from infinite singularity due to a fusion of matter and anti-matter and not really nothingness but another question still pops out from such theory, what existed before the singularity? And again, is there really anything as "nothingness" when considering the cosmos? Sure, it could be devoid before the setting of time and motion or any other physical, dimensional and sub-physical laws ordering the universe but that doesn't mean space is not there or there is no vacuum. Nothing is in a room doesn't mean the room is not there or there is no space to be filled. Truely, creation and mind-twisting complexity of the cosmos will continue to give more questions to ask for every answer that has been given but it wouldn't still give effontry to put a Creator out of the picture even if we would still have to ask how He came about.

Cc johnydon22 donnffd Hcpaul ValentineMary raphieMontella.

Well said, i agree with you 100%...These are just the mysteries we face as aware creatures trying to understand our place in a vast and possibly infinite cosmos

Gpdwise:
u should tell me!!! cos the last time I checked it all started with a big bang!! there must be an action before a reaction isnt that science or has that law changed. something has to cause the bang!!!

I hear this argument alot, and i cant just help but to think that theres alot of fallacies that goes off when that is mentioned.

First, great post, i am happy atheists makes you think about your believes, and to correct the notion, many atheists i know accept everyone for who they are and hardly discriminate, although there are some few exceptions, but belief is a personal thing, you can believe what you want to, i personally am against superstition, but believes are harmless. So great for you.

Secondly, you use the law of physics to deduce the creation of the law of physics and that in it self is an error. We know that the laws of physics were created at the big bang and many theists accepts this, but still ask what caused it, they use the famous "to every effect, there must be a cause" as their premise.

I beg to differ, if the laws of physics(including the cause and effect law) was created at the big bang, then its not necessarily at all for the big bang to have a cause because it doesn't follow the law of physics.

Its simple logic...

shadeyinka:
I quite agree with you that the factors raised about the earth and the origin of life may be explained naturally and of course that is not my aim. I am just focusing on the statistical odds of having ALL these factors in a single planet.

As close as the moon is, it is barren. Why? So many things missen in the equation especially the size which is not sufficient to trap an atmosphere through gravitation.

Without the Orbital inclination of the earth, we would not have our climatic seasons. The earths magnetic field is a saviour against the dangerous cosmic radiations that would have destroyed all probability of life's existence. The size of the earth is just the right size...imagine if humans live on Jupiter!

The presence of enough quantity of water in the sea, the water cycle supplying fresh water on land, Nitrogen cycle, Carbon cycle and Energy cycle all on just one planet? How come everything necessary for life on one planet?

You know i agree but let me throw in a thought experiment, please indulge me: Imagine microbes never evolved photosynthesis and never pumped oxygen, imagine we had just Nitrogen and hydrogen in our atmosphere, imagine the earth wasnt bombarded with asteroids carrying water but Ammonia, imagine the earth didnt have an ozone layer to protect it from UV rays from the sun and imagine Life started on the earth(given the age of the earth and how life was discovered, scientists suggest that life must have started quickly on earth).

Now what do we have, No ozone, ultraviolet rays everywhere, a sea of ammonia and no oxygen, Life would remain in the sea, and evolve, they would use Ammonia has their solvent and probably hydrothermal vents as their source of energy, some might evolve to use the UV light but lets be generous and say no animals crawled to land, they all evolved in their sea of ammonia.

Now imagine one species that evolved intelligence now claiming the earth was just right for their existence and the odds of it happening was astronomical.

Of course we can argue that we have billions of planets and so statistically it is possible. I agree, but there exist no guarantee that life will exist in a similar planet to ours in any other galaxy. Because, apart from the physical elements, we also have time as a variable. This make the odds almost impossible!

The galaxy is about 10billion years old, so there has been plenty of time for planets to flourish life across it

The earth has a molten inner core and it is in orbit of a stable star able to survive billions of years. To me, its about ALL the factors that simultaneously create an almost impossible statistical odds.

If the features where different, like my thought experiment above, then we would not be here rather a different set of organisms adapted to those conditions

Usually for me, I dont attempt to prove the divine origin of life on earth by recent events. I go to the origin, just before the B bang when the laws of physics break down.

Yea, i agree alot of premise that comes from before the big bang is promising and captivating, and can be a real contender for an explanation for a divine creator but not the origin of the earth, it is well understood and no divine work seems to be at play.

shadeyinka:
Actually, my point is what happens if you take away just one of these variables can evolution of life take place? If the earth did not have the right amount of gases eg Ozone the earth would be barren.

The statistical odds of having all the necessary ingredient for evolution in a planet is outstanding.

Do you know that it is possible to also have every physical attribute of the earth and life still would not be formed (evolution)?

When the earth was young, about 500 million years, it had an atmosphere mainly composed of hydrogen, the earths surface was bathed with ultraviolet rays from the sun. This environment would have been extremely hostile to life as we know it but what we found out, these ingredients were what was needed to spark the first living things.

Life stated in the ocean and grew rapidly, microbes were the only inhabiitants at the time. They were bottom of the ocean getting their energy from hydrothermal vents, and they flourished until some moved upward closer to the surface and evolved photosynthesis, they were able to use sunlight to create their own food and give oxygen as their waste product.

These organisms thrived for billions of years slowly pumping oxygen into the atmosphere, we owe how atmosphere to these amazing creatures.

The fact that animals evolved to depend on oxygen wasnt a surprise because if you didnt, you would not survive, thus we are here.

Many of the factors you mentioned can be explained naturally and doesnt need an extraordinary cause for it to happen.

shadeyinka:
I think that the placement of the earth in its orbit is special. If the error in placement is up to 10% there would exist no living thing even if we take the path of evolution. It would have been extreme heat and extreme cold.

The presence of the moon of the right size is also special. Most likely life wouldn't have existed without the moon. Without the moon, ocean movements would be adversely affected hence there may be no life in the ocean.

The size of our sun and its energy density is just right for life on earth.

If you ask me, the earth is a privileged planet. It is however not a conclusive proof of creation. But you will agree with me that many things about our planet is just perfect for life.

Right amount of Water, Oxygen, Pressure, Radiation etc. We may ague about adaptation but if life managed to exist with absence of one of these factors, life would be totally different from what we have now.

You are right, the earth is perfect for life as we know, the only misconception here is overturned cause and effect.

You are assuming that the earth was created because of life, when it should be the other way around, Life evolved to fit the earth.

We both agree the earth is beautiful and its our home.

An unborn embryo cannot be compared to a living baby...

lordnicklaus:
So, I have seen your premise and there are lots of logic driven by facts in what you posted up there. All of what you vouched for have only occured in spacetime. Stars with large masses than our sun have gone supernova and imploded into infinite singularities due to a compression of matter. But our sun is not a large enough star to become a blackhole and would only become a white dwarf should it go supernova, so wouldn't such facet account for the fact that our sphere in the universe was specially made? Your thoughts please......

donnffd raphieMontella ifenes weah96.. Please what are your views on this?

I dont think because our sun wouldn't collapse into a black hole that means it was specially created, there are lots of stars that would die without collapsing into a balckhole, we are not that unique.

Amazing thread hopefulLandlord, thumbs up

adjoviomole:
You will be the same way n age u wer wen u died.

Its just that, you av no wrinkles, the old ones with wrinkled faces will be restored to their youthful facial smoothness, those who are disable will become able, the blind will be able to see, those without teeth will have der teeth back, those blown to pieces will have der body back, those burnt to ashes will have der body back, those with sickness will have a body without sickness. Bottom line is that we all will have a glorified body. Those innocent lil children dat died wen dey wer lil will be der waiting for der parents.

Those who die of brain cancer and lost their memories in the process nko?

oaroloye:
SHALOM!

I BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE NO TRILLION PLANETS.

There is no "LIGHT-YEARS-WIDE" Universe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VcC9Gf_r5c


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdXYMhN5YFM

I believe that everything NASA has told us is a LIE.

Lol, very interesting hypothesis you have there, but examine the facts and see how it fits your hypothesis shall we?.

If the earth was concave, why dont we see the other side of the world above us?

How do you explain how some part of the earth is in daytime and others are at night simultaneously, if it was concave, there should be day time everywhere all the time.

How do you explain sunset?, where does the sun sets to?

How do you explain the moon, other planets, the nightsky and the starlight?

How do you explain seasons?.

Your hypothesis creates more problems than it solves...

NB: NASA wasnt the one who told us the earth was round, it has proved beyond all doubt some 400years ago

To the best of my Knowledge, SETI was terminated years ago.

Having wasted the time of millions of people.



IT WILL BE FAKE.

Its interesting to see conspiracy theorists of a different flavour...

Exactly how did SETI waste peoples time?, i wonder...

For your information, i contributed some of my computer time to SETI to help with processing of massive data influx from radio telescopes, so the idea that it was shut down years ago is bonkers.

The Alien Creature that we know about (DEVILS) can disguise themselves to look like ANYTHING.

They have made themselves look like "GODS," but that is NOT what they REALLY look like.

I wonder how you came about this information...

Most people do not see anything after they die- because their Souls are destroyed.

Even though we can agree on the conclusion, i wonder the process in which you arrived at this conclusion!

We were not created from MEST- only our BODIES were created from Matter, Energy, Space, and Time.

If necessary.

Confusing me the more, if we were not created from MEST as you call it, then what were we created from and how exactly did you know?

shadeyinka:
You have forgotten to add that,:
There is another, the "god of self" the devotees are usually educated and intellectually above average.

The god of self is actually a part of the trinity of Satan, Rebellion and Self.

Lol...i believe God is a relative term, and so if someone asks me if i dont believe in God, i ask him to define God.

I really dont understand the concept of a God of self, but if it has to do with satan who in my opinion is a fictional character, then i think this god of self is also fictional, but i might be wrong, so please enlighten me more on this god of self.

HardMirror:
You don't understand conventional religion. Very logical question, but as far as our conventional religions are concerned, humans on earth are all that matters, because religion does not know the existance of other planets, all we see in the sky are stars. That is religion

Religion has a way of trying to adapt, the bible writers clearly taught that the earth was flat, they believed that the sun revolves around the earth and when ideas came along that threatened these beliefs, they resisted and fought back until they found out they cannot win, it was proven beyond doubt that the earth is not flat and it does indeed revolves around the sun, and what did they do?, they adapted, they claimed the bible was right all along and it was only meant metaphorically.

So, when we do find intelligent aliens probably thousands of years ahead of us, i want know in what ways can it also adapt in accepting the fact that we really are not the goal of the universe and the universe wasnt created just for us and we are not that special in the grand scheme of things.

cc: AnonyNymous

Would drop my thoughts later