₦airaland Forum

menxer:
I was clear about what I said.
is the big bang theory parallel to theory of evolution?

You can correlate all these the way you understand for us to learn from.

I am trying to correct you from your obvious mistake, if you want to accept it fine, if you dont want to, na your business...Evolution of life and The Big bang has absolutely nothing to do with each other....

menxer:
To me, evolution and creationism are interwoven.

The theory of evolution talks about the Big bang, the point the "Creator of Creators" became conscious or came into existence and Created the universes (manifest and unmanifest), which is continued by creationism to talk about the creation of the Earth by the Creators (...and God said let us...)

Is it possible to create something out of nothing? Yes, an idea.

Is it possible to create something new out something? Yes, a pot of soup.

If the Bible says that "God created man out of the dust of the earth," how is that different from "God creating man from the genetic materials already found on earth; which amounts to remodeling that material into something he wants?
This is where Evolution talks about the missing link, because the evolutionary line was tinkered with.

Take a look at the phone device in your hands, is that the original phone as conceived and designed by Billy Graham Bell? No.

It has evolved into what it is today because many people over many years have tinkered with the design and added other functions Bell didn't even imagine.

Same with man.

Since we Know that God is a title, the question is who are those entities that bore that Title?

I just want to clarify, The theory of Evolution(by natural selection) has absolutely nothing to do with the Big bang theory...please i hope you study more about it...

[quote author=naijadeyhia post=48741848][/quote]K...takia

naijadeyhia:
To your comment above, i have taken the liberty of highlighting some of them which you really need to be careful about when saying them.

The only crime i am guilty of is underestimating the figures...

These planets whether you believe it or not have gravitational pulls which influence each other and this influence ensures we have times and seasons and they are not random otherwise we would have 5 hour days today and 50 hour days tomorrow....There is always a cause and effect

Lol, the only bodies that affect earth gravitational are the sun and the moon...every other are either to far away or too small to make any significant difference. Then we have 24hrs has nothing to do with gravity but rather the spin of the earth. Seasons are caused by the positions of the earth in respect with the sun at different periods of its revolution.

In the universe as large as it is with all these your supposed galaxies in them would mean we have a lot of meteorites and space rocks flying everywhere but as old as science claims we are which is several billions of years old there has never been any super collision between the earth and other stars or planets and i wonder why.

Another mistake, earth has been bombarded many times, infact our oceans came from an asteroid that hit the earth 4.3 billion years ago, the dinosaurs were wiped out by an asteroid 65million years ago...you need to research all these things...

You see if everything was random and the universe was random then we would have everything flying about up there without control. Let me give you a small scale example;

What happens if you put 9 small marbles in a big bowl and you shake up the bowl so all the balls would bounce around randomly? You would discover that they would bump into each other too many times to count within a very short period but for the universe this is not the case...somehow everything as large as they are are kept away from each other and only rotate and revolve in a set manner but never breaking away from that pattern due to a phenomena called gravitational pull but why do they conveniently have this pull? Why is it that no matter how we claim randomness there is always something that regulates this supposed randomness and creates order from it?

Wow, i am surprised that you are saying this, sincerely...you are comparing the solar system with a bowl of balls?, it is obvious you dont understand how planetary bodies move, the scale and the distances in the cosmos , if you do, trust me, you wont say what you said...

I am trying to get you to think and not just spew what you learned in school which someone else thought about for you.

I think you should take your own advice...

naijadeyhia:
So in all the orderliness and purpose all you still see is an illusion of purpose? I suppose you would not get married and desire Children or save up some money for a project or desire a car or eat or sleep or ensure your kids get some education or even in this scenario.....I suppose you did not register and sign onto nairaland without a purpose.

All that you have stated here are intentions, and no doubt intentions are a product of an intelligent mind, but we dont see intentions in Nature, the sperm and the egg doesnt have intentions, its not like asif it intends to make a human or of that sort...so you see why i say the comparison is mismatched

naijadeyhia:
Are you living underwater?

If you still cannot understand how our whole discussion can be linked to the purpose of the universe then i cannot push any further

Are you kidding me?

is that your evidence of purpose for the UNIVERSE?

We are not living underwater?


Let me break it down for you:

- You cant live on 2/3th of the earth's surface
- you cant live on half of what remains, which means if you do your math correctly, you can only live on 1/6th of the planets surface
- The earth is just one of 8planets in our solar system, majority are far larger and can contain hundreds to thousands of earths in them.
- The sun which is a middle-sized star can contain about 100,000 earths in it
- The sun is just one of 100billion stars in our galaxy
- Our galaxy is just one of 100billion galaxies in our universe
- There are more planets in the universe than there are grinds of sand on planet earth
- The distances between two stars is freaking enormous and consists mostly of empty space


So you see my friend, 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the universe is inhospitable to human life...

where is your design and purpose in that?

naijadeyhia:
smh..

Nobody is annoyed with you....you have been incensed ever since we began and all i have been doing has been politely discuss with you...

The human eye is like a blueprint which keeps replicating itself from the original. Its like having a money printer that will always give you exactly what you pre-programmed into it even if you make a quadrillion copies.

You assume that we are saying that at each conception there is a tinkering and manipulation of the fetus before it is born? No

What we mean is that there is a purpose to DNA and there is a purpose to the outcome of DNA composition and these are not random..neither are they without a purpose... We could as well say there is no purpose to a Pen..is or a Vag..ina afterall without them there would be no conduit for sperm passage in humans and neither can we say there is a purpose to an egg being produced during ovulation and a sperm as tiny as it is having a homing device that homes in on the egg and the egg also being programmed to become a hard shell the moment one single sperm penetrates it and then settle itself in the womb for a function is has been designed for.

Are all these coincidental or driven by purpose?

I mean the millions of sperm released could just decide to chill and lounge within the walls of the vagi..na and play pocker or form a singing group but they do not...their single purpose is to seek out the egg and fertilize it and this they do so efficiently.

I think you should read about human reproduction, sperms dont swim efficiently to the egg, majority of them swim to different places, only the few ones that were lucky enough to swim in the direction of the egg have a chance of meeting it.

Then we cant talk about DNA and replication and purpose without diving into Evolution, which i have no strength of doing, but if you know anything about Evolution, you would understand how these illusion of design and purpose really came about through mutation and Natural selection.

naijadeyhia:
Wrong! What i said was every creature has its boundaries of intelligence and only functions within those boundaries in a world they know which ironically has also been perfectly arranged to meet their specific purpose.

Humans on the other hand also have their own purpose which is also with a boundary of intelligence though wider than those of other creatures but still perfectly purposed to meet our demands as well. There is a balance in everything no matter how you view it...otherwise animals would be sacking us from our homes at will.

Perfectly arranged?...are you sure about that?

Your last statement was confusing, are you telling me that given the chance animals wont run into your house and find something to eat?, i wonder why the invented gates and fences...

Finally, we have been dancing around purpose for living things and i am still not closer to understanding how it relates to the universe as a whole.

naijadeyhia:
This is the thing that you do not understand. Man and science says they know the composition of the eye with DNA and molecules and all that as you said but with all that knowledge can you show me one genetically engineered eye in flesh and blood form?

Sure we have mechanical versions but mechanical versions are not the real deal and if the real deal came from nature then we should be able to naturally recreate it since we already have all the ingredients to its existence.

We can do this mechanically so why not naturally? Man builds a mechanical version and says its intelligently done but denying that the one they copied was also intelligently done.

Is that not foolishness?

But, it wasnt designed

From the day your dad's sperm fused with your moms egg, your eyes have been slowly forming...Now tell me when exactly did this "designer" come and fix that eye? or where did he do it?...

We see these thing happening in front of our eyes, sperm and egg slowly transform into a full human being, Where is the designer?, when did he do the work?... i really dont get it with you guys!

So if we call the eye what it is, why are you annoyed at us?

KingEbukasBlog:
We have animals that migrate , plants that respond to the changes in their environment . Isn't that a sense of purpose - survival ?

Animals can be trained to carry out specific tasks - isn't this an exhibition of intelligence .

Animals also teach their young ones how to hunt and evade being hunted - isn't that an exhibition of intelligence .

Ok, so because a few animals with high cognitive abilities have a sense of purpose!, how does that automatically mean that the universe have a purpose?

naijadeyhia:
Plants and other animals work with what they have available and make the best use of it which funny enough is perfect for their existence....Man being part of the circle of life physically and having a world population of about 7.4billion partakes in the regulation of the eco system. Even science knows this why is why there is so much talk about global warming, gas flaring, endangering of certain species and all that.....The issue here is that our purpose automatically drives us while those of other creatures also automatically drives them but their limitations keeps them within certain boundaries of this purpose so stop looking for plants who would say kudos to man or cats and dogs who would write a thank you note to you because they have boundaries of intelligence. If you can talk with cats and dogs and plants please come and teach me how...i want to learn

So you are admitting that the more you have intelligence, the more you see purpose in things...So i would ask you, how many things are as intelligent as humans? and if humans are the only ones, why is it surprising to you that we would assume purpose to everything because of our high intelligence?

If you really were a software engineer then this statement shouldnt be coming from you. You create programs as a software engineer to what end? For fun or to serve a specific purpose? Some programs you give them the ability of carrying out multiple tasks while others have dedictated assignments so why again are you a software engineer?

Please, stop comparing computer programs with the relationship living things have, its obviously mismatched.

KingEbukasBlog:
But some factitious creations of man was gotten by emulating nature . E.g robotics , artificial intelligence

Man describes his emulations as intelligently designed but rejects what is being emulated as intelligent designed ? That's blatant dishonesty !

So because we emulate nature and the eye, and create a camera which is made of metals and clogs(which cannot reproduce, is not dynamic and cant be built from smaller molecules) then the eye(which has DNA, is very dynamic, was formed slowly from smaller and simpler molecules) is automatically a designed object?

naijadeyhia:
You said you are a software engineer because you "love it". Ok let me stop right there!

This love for software engineering is it not a purpose for the entire job in the first place? If you hated it would you do it? Even if you hated it and still did it, it would mean that there is a higher purpose you have to serve even if you hate the job and do not agree with the terms.. e.g

You could be a software engineer for a company that pays you 100k and you know other companies pay 500k but since you have no offer from such higher paying companies you are forced albeit unhappily to still do the job why? You have needs, you have bills, you have responsibilities...

Without purpose there would be no motivation

without motivation there would be no going forward

without going forward there would be no discoveries

without discoveries there would be no essence to life and no development hence no knowledge

which brings us back full circle to why you love software engineering...

do you follow?

Remember you already said you are part of the universe which to you just happened and serves no purpose. So why would you break the supposed universal purposelessness and have purpose if the same universe serves no purpose whatsoever?

Because we evolved to have intentionality doesnt mean intentions is an intrinsic part of the universe...Infact it is obvious that we are the only species and Natural objects so far that we know of that have intentions, Intentions are not common in the universe, so how can you make that big leap to saying the universe should now have intentions because we have it and we are part of it?

KingEbukasBlog:
What gave life the propensity to evolve

Evolution, bro... Read up on it...

naijadeyhia:
The difference is that the tadpole and the lion see their respective locations as habitable due to favorable conditions and serve its PURPOSE (safety, peace and quiet, availability of food, e.t.c). The tadpole and lion are also a part of a larger number of creatures who by purpose need each other to survive.....A tadpole grows to a frog who lives in the gutter and lays eggs, the frog is food for other larger creature who are in turn food for other larger creatures and some of these larger creatures help sustain the particular food the lion would eat and the lion in turn increases in number and helps keep certain species in check numerically.....Even kids know about the CIRCLE OF LIFE

To each there is a purpose.

Clap for yourself...

so the lion and tadpole see the locations as habitable due to favorable conditions but humans are not allowed to see the air, and the plants we eat as part of favorable conditions also?, we are not allowed to also be part of the circle of life (in which by the way we are)?, why cant the dog or the cat say the purpose of humans existing is for us to take care of them?, why cant the plants say the purpose of humans existing is for us to produce CO₂ for them to live longer?...

You see, you can label purpose on anything that is beneficial to any entity, but that doesnt mean that was the real purpose or whether there was a purpose at all in the first place...

KingEbukasBlog:
You are a software engineer and you don't see how this validates the existence of a creator .

Evolution is used in software engineering to meet the constantly changing requirements of a customer and according to your sense of reasoning , this means you as the programmer does not exist .

How far you na

With your logic , automated systems preclude the existence of a creator

Stop equating human-made things with Life, Nature and the Universe...things dont generally become better because there is a purpose or plan behind it, things just happen.

naijadeyhia:
So you are a software engineer just for the purpose of being one? Or you felt you could be a solution since you "love it"

In a court of law, my lawyer would have shouted "objection, whats the point?"

We are getting too personal and i am wondering how it relates to the universe having a purpose

KingEbukasBlog:
So which is more rational ?

its like asking, my future first grandchild would be either a male or a female, which is more rational?

If you are suggesting evolution , it does not preclude design . Phones , laptops , Cameras all evolved into what they are today evidently orchestrated by intelligence .

Evolution is a topic for another thread, but cameras and phones dont reproduce, life does and the fact that we can see something complex come all by itself without the input from any designer obviously breaks the logic that complex things always need a designer.

The snowflake argument is banal , it fails to recognize that the snowflake is a product of natural processes . Nature is designed by a creator .

Again, Faulty conclusion from a faulty premise, you still havent established that Nature was designed.

naijadeyhia:
So there is no intelligence in plants and no purpose?

Do you eat rocks? Do you breathe carbon dioxide? Do you

The clothes you wear are gotten from what?

The furniture you use is from what?

The medicine doctors use are from what?

Rubber is from what?

The nutrition your body makes use of is from what?

Do you still believe plants serve no purpose and have no intelligence?

A toadpole lives in a gutter, reproduces, and dies in the gutter...it cant imagine a life without it...does that mean that the gutter was designed for it?

A Mountain lion lives in the mountain, reproduces and dies in the mountain...it cant imagine a life without the mountain, does that mean the mountain was there because of the lion?

naijadeyhia:
I asked 2 questions..i said what do you do for a living and why?

its like you dont read the posts before you reply

donnffd:
I am a software engineer and i love it...
but i dont see how that relates to the universe having a purpose!

is that not your answer

winner01:
So snowflakes are as complex as all we see around us?
Why do you people choose simple occurences like sand dunes and snow flakes to discredit God's infinite power?

How many complex things do we see around us apart for life(which we all know wasnt designed) and Artificially made things??

naijadeyhia:
Thank you for being honest with the first answer now to my second and last question;
What do you do for a living and why?

I am a software engineer and i love it...

but i dont see how that relates to the universe having a purpose!

naijadeyhia:
I decided to single this one out as the others held no importance.

Life in all its supposed randomness is still a product of our purpose and deliberate choices. Life (experiences, the world in the context of beauty, motion, transformation) cannot exist without us acting on it. Life isnt complex its just a collection of choices and errors!

I wasnt talking about life in terms of society, i was talking about Life in terms of biology...

And moreover you can only say that about human life not the rest of 99.9999% of life that lives today which stresses my point even further, we never see intelligence or purpose anywhere in other species, plants, planets e.t.c only humans.

naijadeyhia:
Are you a part of the universe? Yes or No?

Yes, i am part of the universe

KingEbukasBlog:
When its over the internet , its called netiquette - this is more appropriate .

alright, thanks, i ddnt know that...

KingEbukasBlog:
The universe has a cause and its cause is its creator .

True, i agree...The cause can be an accident or deliberate.

The intelligence behind the complexity of design of the universe is proof that a conscious creator exists .

I disagree, First, complexity of something doesnt mean it was designed (an example would be Life).

Second, how can you assume a conscious creator for the universe when you have a sample of just one. its like seeing one snowflake and because of its beautifully structured crystalline shape assume that it was designed by a conscious creator. The argument doesnt hold, you would need to have a larger sample before claiming such a claim

Humans have been bequeathed with consciousness , emotions , intelligence and dexterity - this is in variance with your claim they were gotten through serendipity aka 'evolutionary need' .

Still conjecture, no evidence to support your claim...

The aforementioned attributes man has logically suggests he was made for a purpose .

Arriving at a conclusion from a faulty premise would obviously give you a faulty conclusion.

naijadeyhia:
Were you there when the universe began? If you were not how could you confidently declare it was not via intelligence especially when you as a person needs to intelligently assemble in perfection a complex appliance you would require.

First off, i did not declare that there was not an intelligence before the universe neither did i say there was...My answer has always been "I dont Know" because i have no evidence to make a declaration.

You are the one declaring intelligence and that is an extraordinary claim, and you would agree, extraordinary claims deserves extraordinary evidence.

If the universe is an appliance on a larger scale which serves a purpose then someone or something intelligently put the parts together for that purpose same way you would intelligently assemble all the parts of a car engine before it can serve its purpose. True or false?

@bolded, Again inferring without evidence, How do you know the universe has purpose?, what is your evidence for a purpose of the universe?

KingEbukasBlog:
netiquette

are you trying to correct my spelling?

ValentineMary:
In that sense, a programmed computer can be a real person?

A thinking program is a entity that thinks, whether it was programmed or not, and if it does have the ability to doubt, the only thing he can be sure of is its ability to doubt, which in turn means he can be certain that the thinking entity exists. Now, is that being real, i cannot say but it sure does prove that there is atleast a thinking entity to start with.

winner01:
This is not true. This position was made by atheists high priests and has since been parrotted by other atheists to sound reasonable. It is not true. Atheism is usually referred to as a lack of belief in the existence of God/gods.
The modication you've given to it suits agnosticism at best.

You tend to project your own religiousness on atheists, and thinking we have an authority we must surely adher to...sorry to burst your bubbles, it doesnt walk like that. I was an atheist even before i knew any of those popular atheists. Then your assumption that an agnostic is different from an atheist is misguided and infantile. Agnosticism is the fact that you dont know anything for sure and it must certainly is not mutually exclusive from being an atheist or even a christian.

You can be an agnostic christian, just that people like you would accuse people like that for not knowing the word thereby claiming infinite knowledge.

naijadeyhia:
Atheists do not have one position as they all arrived at their "NO GOD" position differently so its difficult pinning anything on a singular atheist. All they are willing to admit is their no God position which is why to an Atheist proof is relative and individual.....

But here we have a general proof of intelligence and purpose in everything and you still seek proof?

First, i would ask you to stop reply in all bold, its really not cool

Secondly, you ddnt show any proof of intelligence in the universe apart from things done by humans

naijadeyhia:
Look up to the post i gave to weah96 and answer that too

Dont tell me to look for a post you sent to someone, its really impolite and not a chat etiquette.

IF you want to quote your post, you can as well paste it here or quote me on the post...