₦airaland Forum

Hello...ooo... Ibrahim... where are you...?

Okay... let's make some progress.

Let me say up front that I am not an authority in the quoran neither do I believe that the Christian God is the same Allah Muslims worship. There are just too many things that distinguish the two but I will not go into an academic scrutiny of that. Frosbel may help you out in that regards with the materials at his disposal.

Now, for a long time I have began to question the whole process of becoming a Christian. The usual thing in our churches is for us to hear the gospel message, come out to the front of the church and "give your life to Christ". I am convinced such exercises do not convert most people; although God is sovereign and we have people who meet the Lord that way. But how then does one come to meet the true God... How can one be "saved"(Permit me to use the Christian parlance)?

I would not bore you with a lot of bible scriptures but let me show just one here (my favorite):

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Here Jesus talks about two things 1. Knowing God 2. Eternal Life

It is because of 1. that you opened this thread: You desire to know God. Like someone has said, if you truly desire to know the true God who made heaven and earth, he will reveal himself to you; either through this thread or through some other means; it is his duty to do so.

Now, we also see Jesus talk about eternal life and then makes this connection: that knowledge or understanding God is eternal life.

See, Ibrahim, I am not going to belabor the point of why the bible has so many versions and why the quoran has just one. It is simply obvious: the bible has been subject to many translations based on scholars preferences. And it has only been to our advantage because those who do not understand the original languages with which the scriptures were written may use this various translations to catch a glimpse of God's mind in a text. I cannot say much on the quoran; but I am sure other Christians here can help out with that.

The important thing is seeking knowledge of God: the right knowledge of God.

Let me relay a story you may know well but pls for the sake of this knowledge thing you have come to seek here assume you've never heard it before and be open:

God created a world He Himself said was "good" and perfect. Satan tempted our first parents: Adam and Eve and they sinned and were sent out of paradise. Though God pursued them away, from that moment on He, God, has been at the forefront of redeeming or saving man from his sins. The first thing God did after Adam and Eve sinned was to kill an animal and use the fore to cover them both for clothing, Genesis 3:21. What we see there is the providential faithfullness of a God of love stretching his arm out to fallen and shameful man. But what that scripture protrays is the redeeming act of God, who will someday become the lamb of God to be sacrificed for the sins of the whole world.

Sin raged on from the time of Adam and even up until now and it seemed fallen man would never find hope; would never find God; would never find redemption. Then a ray of hope showed forth: Many years after Adam's sin, an angel appeared to Joseph and Mary, with a message:

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This message was about Jesus, who will be born of the Holy Ghost, from a virgin mother Mary. He sole purpose for coming to the world will be to save people from sin. So we see that by one man, Adam, sin came to all humanity; and then by another man, Jesus, we shall be saved from sin.

Sin shows itself in two way: 1. In our nature 2. By our actions. Jesus has come to save from both of them. The nature of sin is an inherited one from our parents and that is why no one teaches a child to lie or abuse or fight, etc. It is a nautre of sin manifesting itself. It is from this nature that the evil that men do manifests. When Jesus came, he came first to transform our nature from that of a sinner to that of a righteous person. That is what it means to be born-again. The bible shows that the man that is born-again is a new creature (2 cor 5:17)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new

. But this creature is actually likened to a child in the bible, 1 Peter 2:2:

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

. A baby is expected to grow. But there is something else about a baby: A baby throws tantrums; a baby is not mature; a baby thinks like a baby; etc. So therefore, it is incumbent on a baby to outgrow all these.

Many people criticize Christians for doing a lot of bad things and even say they are not true Christians. While this may be true, the truth is that a Christian who does not grow has the tendency to do immature things; to behave as if he is not a Christian. And so we are told not to judge one another; only God knows those who are his.

So Christ came to secure a salvation for us. A salvation from sin and its effect in life. When we are thus born-again, we are expected to therefore grow. If through Adam we became sinful by first having the nature of sin and living as sinners; in Jesus two things happen to us: we become righteous and we have the ability in us to live a righteous/holy life. In the first case we did not become sinners by our own efforts but by simply being born to our parents; so likewise in the second case, no one can become righteous by his own effort but simply by trusting in Jesus. When you trust Jesus he gives you a perfect righteousness. That is the way God sees you: perfect! Without doing anything to earn it!! This itself, is the gospel message, the fact that what we could not do to please a perfect God perfectly, Christ did for us. The life we now live, we live trusting Jesus daily for right standing with God. This is the very solution to sin the angel was talking about in Matthew 1:21.The process of knowing God is believing in Jesus, at one time and at all times, thereby we become born again and then like a child is expected to grow into adulthood, with the expected ups and downs of growing up, a Christian also can grow into full maturity, showing forth the perfection and holy lifestyle that God expects from him.

The whole process of a Christian attaining maturity is a lifelong effort and learning, and it cannot be fully discussed here.

Surfeit to say this: that understanding God is eternal life. But that is were Satan would attack you because he would present different messages on God to you. The knowledge of God that you need and that can save you is the one that is found in Jesus Christ.

I would leave there for now and trust that my brethren and I on this forum will help you comprehend the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ as we progress. I tell, if you are truly honest about finding God, you will find him here. But if you came here to make jest of the gospel message; it would do you no good. Salvation will evade you and go unto another person.

But I sense you are genuine and that is why I have taken the pain to go this length to explain God, through Jesus Christ, to you.

Hello Ibrahim

Its wonderful U are here seeking truth. I trust God U will find it.

Now a word to Christians: it doesn't matter whether a person is phony or not; ours is to 'give a ready answer to anyone who ask of this hope we have placed faith in'. He may use it against us, but someday a true seeker will come and it will liberate him.

Back to Ibrahim, I am constrained with having to type on a phone but... on a second thought bc of U I will load my glo modem this moment and trust God to deliver a thought to U.

Coming Soon...

Goshen, have U seen your mail?

@All,

this back and forth on tongues has made us loose the valid points raised by the OP.

We are in times when the bible is being challenged by extra biblical inspiration all in the name of the Spirit. If the Spirit authored scriptures then he would speak to us according to scriptures in whatever form he manifests himself.

There are valid manifestations of the Spirit today but it is the duty of all Christians to judge them by what is written and throw away anything not in keeping with the bible.

busuyem: I never knew this kind of discussion has been going on here until now. Wow, what a fellowship of the Spirit! This is the same message I have been preaching to some christian folks here but some still find it too good to be true. I understand them anyway. See, I still don't knw where most of our pastors found this error from in the Bible to complement their scripture ignorance. Tithe paying started LEGALLY with the jews as written in the law that God gave to the Isrealites in the Old Testament, we're no Jews 4 God's sake; we're no more under the Jewish laws but under law of the Spirit and the Truth. The area where most of our pastors missed it their inabilities to differentiate between the Old Testament and the New Testaament, that's where the error emanated from. There is a LIFE in the Old Test. and there another LIFE in the New Test., and you can never live both together as a christian. Can u imagine? Jesus came, preached and did all we could need without collecting TITHES, FIRST FRUIT, etc frm anybody, yet He kept on blessing lives on daily basis. All He preached was GIVING which could be seen in the lives of all the Apostles throughout the Scriptures: every1 gave according to their ability and decision in Act chapter 4 and in Pauline revelation, he said u must not give by force (Law) or compulsion but rather give with cheerfulness and willingness(2 cor.9:6-. Jesus said, "Give and it shall come back to u..." (Luke 6:38). I don't knw when Prophet Malachi's words became superior to the words of Jesus. Whatever u give to the work of the ministry is GIVING in the eyes of God no matter what u religiously name it. We owe God nothing!! We're worshippers in the Spirit and in the Truth , not laws carriers. Happy Sunday to all.

Welcome to the party Bro. And you are very, right up there!

Goshen, still awaiting your mail. Thanks.

[quote
author=Bidam]Copout words oyibo preachers always use to discredit God's
tithe."legalistic".SMH! Lord let your Kingdom come and let you will be
done.God is indeed in Africa.[/quote]I thought you were supposed to be on 'retreat'

Candour: @DrummaBoy, Pastor Kun & Goshen360, you asked for update of my meeting so here goes

Well, i went to the see the pastor as agreed and i was armed with my bible of course.I really was ready to show him all he was missing or mixing up but as we approached his place(my sister and i), i had a leading in my spirit to just listen and hear him out and i was glad i did.

We exchanged pleasantries, sat down and he began to speak.He started by asking when i stopped tithing and i told him exactly 2 years ago this august.He then wanted to know how my finances and health were faring to which i replied that i had never been better placed in these areas.I believe this threw him off balance (as he obviously expected a negative report) and forced him to adopt a new approach.He cited Abram's tithe to Melchizedek and tied it to Gal 3:14,17 (i wondered the extrapolation he did to arrive at that link). He agreed Abraham had been blessed in Gen 12 but explained the blessing did not come in full until he paid tithe in Gen 14(more surprise). He agreed Jacob's tithe was a vow(therefore voluntary) but said this was why God made it a law under Moses(another wonder).He admitted Christ has delivered us from the curse of the law(Gal 3:13) but said that Oyedepo and Adeboye confirmed(from God of course) that financial blessings could only come from obedience to the tithe(really?).At this point, i ignored my bible(as he didn't have need for it) and just kept staring at him.

He then delved into testimonies of what Tithe paying had done in the lives of people.How Copeland got so rich by obeying tithe that he dashed out 26 jets out of his personal collections.How Oyedepo acquired 4 jets and started an airline just by obeying tithe too.Then how he too will soon join their ranks because he's obeying the tithe.I guess he deciphered i wasn't moved by these so he told of 7 Colombian youths who were shown the harsh torment in hell for good Christians(his exact words) who refused to pay tithes.Then he told me how God had planned great riches for me but non payment of tithe was hindering them. He admitted i looked comfortable but there was a higher plane of riches i needed to get to.

At this point he conceded that there were Christians who were not reaping benefits of tithe but he will soon release a message that will explain how to make tithe work for you. He then ended by saying i should pray to God that night for God to reveal the tithe principle to me.

At this point, i thanked him for his time and took my leave.I had come for a bible discussion but i ended up being preached at.It was a long sermon but it left me very sad. Sad at how Christians who should be relaxed and revel in God's peace were busy getting worked up in the hysteria of material acquisitions and becoming depressed when expectations are dashed.I was very happy i didn't talk much as it might have looked like bragging and it wouldn't glorify God.

My brethren, the sheer emptiness of most sermons in our churches of today hit me fresh from my encounter with this pastor.I could just imagine him struggling to make God see him as qualified for blessings(he hinted at financial difficulties for the past 12 months) when he ought to be walking in the realization that we were already blessed simply because we are in Christ Eph 1:3.We have access to all we need because of God's love Rom 8:32, Phil 4:19, Heb 13:5

That night, i just prayed that God will liberate him from his legalistic bondage. What more could i do?

You don't know what that write up did for me.

In fact, ever since I came to this section to ask about the tithing, I didn't even know you were not tithing. You always maintained the Romans 14 attitude that people should be given the freedom to use their finances the way they like. Now I have heard atleast a bit on your position. Very interesting.

I have been a secret non tithe payer. But with this write up, I am going public on my facebook this moment. And I would be quoting you.

I trust God for the strength to withstand the avalanche of criticism.

debosky: ^^ Just wait for The Lord to show you as he did to Oyedepo and Adeboye.

@ DrummaBoy

To avoid endless back and forth, let's agree to disagree. I take your point that there are other things money can be used for, but these alternatives will always exist. If the chosen use is legitimate and beneficial to church members, then it is permissible. We should seek for the best, but let God direct us and not be led simply by what we consider to be best.

I agree also. Thanks

Candour: my brother, sorry pls.i've done a PM to you.i await your reply

Sent

Candour: my brother, sorry pls.i've done a PM to you.i await your reply

I have sent it. I have to resend it bc apparently, I did not add the attachment I was to add. Check the latetst mail for the attachement

@Everyone and anyone

Does anyone know or have the personal contact of Candour? Pls do PM it to me. I need it ASAP. I have sent him a PM and he has not replied.

Thanks

christemmbassey: seen and reply sent.

I have seen it. Thanks.

Christembassey pls check you mail. You got mail.

Bidam: On the contrary. I am rather open to learning than you are.Anyway stick to your beliefs.let God be the judge of your faith.don't always hang on the opinions of the crowd to get the loudest ovation.The way to Jesus is narrow and lonely not wide with popularity.That's my understanding of who God is.

If I judge correctly, my position in Christendom today, the one of not paying tithe, is the one that is increasingly becoming uncommon. Your position, of tithing, with the clergy benefiting illegally from and the laity possessing a false religious hope in, is the broad way to destruction.

I, my friend, is the one walking the narrow way!

Bidam: I told you guys my convictions about the tithes but your folks(camp) had to go on a mockery trance about it with some one telling me i have malaria fever.That scripture i quoted is to stop all that nonsense dissension and vain babbling.Right now God is teaching me to listen to Him more and argue less here on nairaland.You would have notice i am not a frequent visitor anymore.

So to you it is now a camp thing. Two camps opposing themselves in some sort of competition. No wonder you are not open. Well I wish you the best in your retreat. Maybe God shall be able to get to you all the things we have not been able to. I do not have the energy to respond to your response to my post. And even if I do, it will still be a back and forth thing.

I believe I have made my point.

So how do you interpret all you have written above, in the light of another scripture you quoted below?

Bidam: Let God be the judge of that Not you.

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. (Romans 14:5-6).

Incase you want to interpret this scripture carnally as you do the others lemme explain.Paul wants the brethren to live at peace with one another and not argue or judge each other over their human opinions, which he calls "doubtful things" (Romans 14:1).

I am in agreement with this write up

well done, K Sukurat

^ Goshen, you got mails. Please read the latest (9.40) and let us have a response ASAP

21 Reasons Why You Should Not Tithe Today:

1. The tithe was the tax instituted by God to sustain the levithical priesthood. This has been changed with d coming of Christ's eternal Priesthood that does not need tithing to sustain it, Hebrew 7:12.

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law

2. Tithing is obligatory giving. 2 Cor 9:7 shows that NT giving should never be obligatory.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

3. Abraham tithing, which some argue is pre-law, was a once for all thing and it was a tithe of spoil of war. Christian's incomes today is not war spoil. If we must tithe like Abraham, it must be once and for all and we must give the rest away like he did. God never demanded tithes from war spoils in all the wars Israel waged in the OT.

4. Jesus' mention of the tithe in Matthew 23:23 was in keeping with the Mosaic law, same way he commands those healed of diseases to report to the priest after he's healed them.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Matthew 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. 4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

5. Paul, the leading NT author, never mentioned tithing in all his epistles, including the pastoral ones.

6. The tithe as mentioned in Abram's case, the law, Jesus, etc, was never hard core cash. The tithe was always from agricultural produce. How it transformed for this to monthly or weekly income can only be explained by modern day preachers.

7. The tithe mentioned under Moses was three type: that included giving to levite, giving to the poor, widows, etc and feasting by the tithers themselves. Which one are we to practise today, if indeed we are meant to tithe?

8. The tithe mentioned in Malachi 3 is an offshoot of the tithe that originated from the Mosaic law. The Malachi tithe ended in a curse. Believers today have been redeemed from the curse by Jesus being made a curse for us.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

9. Tithing, like circumcision, was both pre-law and within law, but Paul argued passionately that Christians are not bound to be circumcised. This argument can be applied to tithing too.

Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised tithes, Christ shall profit you nothing.

10. Tithing denies the grace of God: God has freely given us all things, as he gave us Jesus Christ.

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised tithes, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

So far, I have given what I would call 'scriptural' reasons for not tithing. I continue with 'non scriptural' but sensible reasons:

11. Historically tithing was first practised by Gentiles 700 after Christ.

12. Tithing is the institutional church means of supporting its bogus and unnecessary system.

13. Tithing became popular among Baptist, Mormon and Catholic churches with time, although recent popes do not emphasize tithing.

14. Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Spurgeon and some other former reputable men of God never preached tithing and spoke against it.

15. Tithing is not practical. Like in the case of the OP, many people are not sure how much to tithe; whether to tithe lottery monies; or tithe business capital or school fees; etc.

16. There is also the conflict either to pay tithe or to use the money to provide for a family need, buy drugs, ap fees, etc.

17. The word 'pay' shows that pay tithes today are doing according to the law because that word denotes fulfilling an obligation.

18. If tithing was to be limited to 'give' and not 'pay' it would be tendering more to the NT spirit that permit freedom in giving as we purpose in our hearts.

19. Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that we should follow after weightier matters of the law; thus tithing is not weighty. Paul in Romans 14 shows that matters of doctrine that are not weighty should be left to individuals to decide to do or not: there fore 'He that tithes, to the Lord he tithe... But he that does not tithe, to the Lord he does not tithe'.

20. In spite of the liberty Paul has given the church to follow in Romans 14, some insist that tithing must be compulsory; therefore, a worthy response to them is that tithing is not compulsory.

21. Lastly, for now, tithing feeds the flamboyant, ostentatious, arrogant, un Christlike, and selfishness of today's gospel preacher. Thus, to justify these lifestyle, the prosperity gospel is promulgated. The root of Jet, Limousine and mansion acquisitions is the tithe.

Bidam: Let God be the judge of that Not you.

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. (Romans 14:5-6)

Ahhh... finally, you're coming to grasp with the truth.

Where is all those talk about Torah this... Torah that...

So what have we been saying all these days?

If Alwaystrue and Bidam will imitate you in the manner of your response and not have to resort to sentiments and bile, I would have little trouble with them

debosky:

There is. . . .you can have a valid opposition to some of their doctrayines, but if that leads you to view EVERYTHING through that lens, you may have an issue. It's like saying because I disagree with Pastor Kun on the trinity, I immediately condemn him for not supporting tithing as well, assuming anything he says must be wrong.

I do not oppose everything about the RCCG; I only oppose many. I recognize the RCCG as a church of Christ were many are coming to know Christ and being discipled but I think the manner of doing it can be better enhanced to yield more results. Many churches, including my won here in Ibadan, imitate Baba Adeboye and if somethings he does or allows are left unchecked it can very easily become standard for many in the Nigerian church. So, my broda, debosky, I am seeing this issue clearly and not from a clouded lens of prejudice. I mean, what do you think will happen if we begin to have 3 km by 3 km churches all around town. It will be commotion. Already, the preponderance of these churches in the nation is a headache and many of them are simply imitating Baba.

No - the RCC was building St. Peter's to be a glorious building for admiration of the world. This particular project is aimed at housing people who are currently coming together under less than ideal circumstances. Even Jesus in his lifetime sought the welfare of those who had come to listen to him teach. That is the equivalent of what I believe the RCCG is seeking to do, not a grandiose vanity project like the Basilica.

Debosky, let me attach here something I put up on my facebook and then I will make my point

Immigrants were flooding New York City then (with as many as 30 000 orphan immigrants on the streets in 1850), and no one had the time or money to look after their plight - no one, except Charles Losing Brace, a 26-year-old minister. Horrified by their plight, he organized a unique solution, the Orphan Train. The idea was simple: pack hundreds of orphans on a train heading west (of the USA) and announce to towns along the way that anyone could claim a new son or daughter when the Orphan Train chugged through.

By the time the last Orphan Train streamed west in 1929, 100,000 children had found new homes and new lives. Two orphans from such trains became governors, one served as a United States congressman, and still another was a U.S. Supreme Court Judge (culled from the Zondervan NIV Student Bible, page 1050).

This for me is VISION worth imitating. I believe I have said about all I need to say concerning the RCCG's 3 km by 3 km church auditorium.

It is good that religious discourse is upped in this country and we begin to learn to treat issues and let go of personalities. The matter on ground is the building of a 9km square church. What sort of vision is this? Why do we need people having to travel long distances to hear God's word? What about the perils associated with these travels? The traditional means of ministering in all times is to minister to saints in a locality. If you feel there is the need to reach more people, there is the radio, TV and sattelite to reach far distances. Why do people have to travel to have their spiritual needs met? And now that the congregation is growing, why not devise another means of reaching them so that the over crowding they are contending with can stop, the traffic situation on the express can improve and everybody can have some peace! I am sorry to say it: but the reason why this cannot be done is because the RCCG people have succeeded in deifying their Pastor and the man is enjoying every bit of it. They do not realize that God does not share glory with man and that they are reducing the man's life span that way.

Even Moses in the OT knew better. That if he has to minister to so many people at the same time, they will wear him out. The wise things is to divide them up under other leaders. It will be assumed that we are supposed to be wiser in the NT but not RCCG... So if wisdom is applied as it should be there will be no need for a mass exodus of people to receive spiritual adminishing on the express and thus no need for a building. If the 9 km square building is built today; what certainty do we have that they would not be needing a bigger place after tommorow? And can anyone assure us that following the leader's retirment or death, this crowd will be sustained. And if it cannot be sustained, why the need to waste resources on such? There so much more we can use resources for in Christ kingdom. The problem is not a lack of resources but a lack of vision.

You are making a leap again - simply saying RCCG is 'wrong' in one area of doctrine (in your view) is not sufficient cause to say they are wrong on this account. I appreciate your point on subtility and the need to be on guard, but that is different from imputing negative motivations to this project simply due to your other views about RCCG.

Most of the time a destructive means cannot bring about constructive ends. If I criticize RCCG today, it is more likely going to be on doctrinal matters that tend to yield practices that do not glorify Christ. So it is not so much of a "leap" here but a continuum.

This is largely a matter of approach - miracles serve to bring people in, and discipleship can only be carried out once people are drawn in. Jesus appealed to unbelievers too with signs and wonders, so again there is nothing unscriptural in letting miracles and signs draw in unbelievers. Even the first disciples only followed Jesus after seeing his miracles.

That is right. Christ was confirmed via signs and wonders also. But do you notice something about our Lord: how he instructs recipients of his miracle to be secretive about it? How he tries to avoid the crowd; even though he could accord a lot of glory to himself as the Lord of glory. Compare this to our modern day miracle workers: hand bills, jingles on radio and advert on TV, billboards - all announcing signs and wonders. In apostolic days, the signs and wonders were done on mission fields as they reached men for Christ; today, miracles are done on stage. That is why I call you to compare the Spirit. Paul calls us to judge the spirit. Because, as John said, many spirits have gone out... and it behooves us to be discerning.

There are examples of Jesus providing for people's needs while they came to listen to him - the feeding of the 5,000 was one instance. I do not see a returning to the OT simply by building a place to meet together - I don't see a holy of holies or outer court or ark of the covenant in RCCG, or burnt sacrifices. To imply building places to meet is returning us to the OT is simply absurd. There is no prohibition of collecting funds for building meeting places in the NT.

And I agree with you. I am not against building. I am against what we pre-occupy ourselves with in the name of gospel preaching. Any investment in the world is with the hope of maximum yield or impact; Will RCCG not make more impact if it find better means of channeling the over 1 billion naira it intends to raise for this building if it tries? Debosky, I believe you reside in Nigeria; do you see needs around you? Are there not more things to use money for? I think I have belabored that point way too much.

Again, there is still no prohibition to people meeting regularly in Jesus name, even if under the leadership of one man. There is no biblical limitation on the number of people that can meet together under the leadership of one man, nor the frequency. It may not be to your taste, but it is neither prohibited nor condemned in the bible. I am not saying the RCCG method is the gold standard or the best way to do it, but neither is it wrong. Those that go know why they do so - leave it between them and God and don't seek to demean it simply because it doesn't sit with your own views.

Certainly there is no prohibition, now. But do we have to wait until we are prohibitted before we do the right thing? In many countries laws have been enacted to curb pentecostal excesses. I hear of the Camerounian govt banning hundreds of pentecostal churches recently and no one orthodox church was. El-Rufai said in his book that all the churches whose building were pulled down were all new generational churches and not one orthodox assembly. In those days, the church and Christians set the pace for positivism and progress in socieity. If in our day, civil government have to restrain church excesses because they broke laws, we need to check again the spirit behind such "churches".

There is nothing contradictory in meeting together or facilitating such fellowship in decent environs protecting people from the elements. There is nothing contradictory in building a meeting place and apostolic practice. Overseers are supposed to care for the flock - if the intent is to provide a meeting place to cater for people's needs, the building is fully in line with doctrine.

Our modern day overseers need to find more scriptural means of taking care of the flock. The example the RCCG is setting is not worthy of emulation.

If we were talking about private jets now, I would hold a different view.

Atleast, we agree on that one.

I refer you to this thread Pastor Kun opened recently https://www.nairaland.com/1398401/proposed-new-rccg-auditorium-another

Thanks.

Goshen360: @ D'boy,

I haven't received the email yet. I guess I have to go now. I will reply from my phone at work. Take care bro.

Internet is messing up. U will find it when you return

Goshen360: E be like say that new book wey you dey read na eim you get these ^ words from and you wan come take that one cajole people here abi? Anyway, those words are heavy and right but the final usage and intent is wrong sir - The Spirit will never tell you to do what is against the word as he uses the word as a platform for leading. Prove all things and hold unto that which is good is not out of place. Abeg try again later!

Goshen, I will send you a message in five minutes. Pls check it and let me have a reply immediately

Thanks Debosky. It showed that you read the long write up. Let me attempt a response to the issues you raised.

Debosky:

Drummaboy

Unfortunately, your post is clouded with the same issue as frosbel's - conflating issues.

You also have issues with RCCG's doctrine in general - that much is evident. That is a valid view, but using those (and other) objections to tar this particular project is misguided in my view.

There is no way my view can be valid and misguided at the same time. But let have what you have to say...

You have also made some invalid comparisons with the RCC as well, which further weakens your position:

I thought I mentioned that they both are being pre-occupied with buildings?

1. On the issue of indulgences/taxation - is the RCCG introducing practices like indulgences in order to build this auditorium? No - requests have been made, and each person is free to contribute as he/she is convinced. This is the most important point - let each man ask God for direction on whether to give or not.

The greatest strength of satan is his subtility. His ability to show up as an angel of light to deceive. If you have followed my contribution up to the last post you're commenting on, you will see were I have been talking about spirits. Every man has a spirit. Even the gospels we preach have a spirit. The true gospel is propelled by the Spirit of God; false gospels are propelled by false spirits. And yes, somethings can be dictated by spirit of greed. I mentioned in my essay that any time collections were made in teh NT (check Acts, 2Cor 8 and 9) it was always to help the poor. No collection was ever made for buildings. If I as a preacher however realize that people have money in the congregation and do not realize that there are more laudable things such money can be used for, I can very easily take advantage of these people and ask for money to build. You are right that I do not agree with Adeboye on many points of doctrine and much of what the man preaches have been proven in many places to be another gosple; shall it be difficult for him then to use another spirit to demand money off the congregation?

2. On the issue of Miracles, Signs and Wonders - while you may object to the perceived 'focus' on these, they are still valid ways in which God moves. The RCCG continue to emphasise biblical discipleship in its doctrine - even though these do not receive the same level of media publicity.

The RCCG itself, not the media, advertises her signs and wonder, miracles on TV, radio, sattelites, internet and newspapers. If their focus is truly on biblical discipleship, they will tell us so on these mediums. But they tell us what they think people want to hear and these are the reasons people go there. If people have been properly discipled like you said, the need for monthly/annual conventions would have ceased.

3. On the issue of 'building men' vs 'building bricks' - again, the two are not mutually exclusive. You can build men and build bricks too, especially if the bricks facilitate the building of men. That no one 'advertises' or 'reports' such men building programs does not mean they don't exist.

What are your NT examples. I know you can find hundreds of such in the OT and that is exactly what is wrong with the theology of RCCG and churches like them: the fact that Christ has delivered us from an old covenant but they are bent on returning us to it.

4. On the issue of 'pilgrimage' to the Camp. Again there is nothing wrong with this in principle - meeting together is encouraged, and no limit is placed biblically on the scale/frequency of these meetings. That people meet at camp regularly is no proof of men being developed.

If meeting together is encouraged biblically, why not meet together in the legion of local parishes they have in town? Why do they have to go to one man all time? If he dies what happens to the whole pilgrimage? Does this not amount to a sort of show that people go to for spiritual entertainment? NT discipleship says that we need not go up or low to find Christ; the word of faith that we need is close to us. Jesus is a shepherd who leads his sheep to green pastures; the sheep does not need to travel to find pasture to eat. God knows how many people have lost lives, limbs and loved ones because they are going to "camp".

5. I agree that we should be watchful for the influence of the world on our churches, however, I am not in agreement that building an auditorium for people to meet constitutes evidence of another spirit

I do.

What I find a bit disturbing in addition to all this is that Christians do not see anything wrong with all of this. It is does that have issues with that they take up issues with. The church has strayed so badly from apostolic doctrine and practice. We must return to them.

frosbel: @Drummaboy , took some time, , but I read the entire thing

Well said and perfectly broken down.

The bottom line is this, our duty as MEN and WOMEN is to worship GOD and fear him, he will lead us to meet with fellow like minded believers , whose only motive is LOVE and sacrifice.

Well said !

Thank you frosbel.

I didnt even plan to make it that long. When I realized it was that length. I edited it and put it up on my blog and shared it on FB.

Thanks again

Candour: Drummaboy

I had to cut short my self imposed ban from nairaland to applaud your treatise up there.If only christians will put in their thinking caps.becoming believers does not equate to handing our brains over to super men in the mold of MOG.

When churches fall over themselves to compete with the secular world, i have to agree a strange spirit has taken over.

Coincidentally, i have a discussion tommorow with an area pastor of the RCCG whom my sweet mum and younger sister reported my anti tithe stance to.i really want to hear what new revelation he has on this issue.

Thumbs up once again bro.

God bless u plenty

Thank you Candour

I had wanted to ask after you sometimes ago but it slipped my mind.

Do let us know how the discuss with the Pastor goes. My wife thinks I am out of my mind when I discuss mine with her too. They think it is pure heresy. I must say that our Pastors have done a good job at indoctrinating many with the tithe lie that not to tithe is for some like cursing God.

Thanks again. Pls resume NL O; we need your bright ideas.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Galatians 6

11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

12 As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised keep the law; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

I am again forced to have to write a treatise not just because of what Eben 2 said but because of many who are being deceived daily in the name of Gospel preaching in Nigeria

MY POSITION ON RCCG'S BUILDING OF A 3 KM LONG AUDITORIUM

One of the biggest tragedies of our time is the fact that Christian do not know were we are coming from. I have mentioned on this forum before that I listen to orthodox Christian teachers a lot. One of them, the late Dr David Martyn Loyd-Jones, used to say that Christians, along with a sound knowledge of the bible, should know church history. Because of ignorance of where the church is coming from, we are repeating the mistakes of the past.

Martin Luther’s grouse with the Roman Catholic Church, which led ultimately to the 16th century Reformation, started with this same issue of buildings. The Roman Catholic Church was in the middle of building the St. Peter’s Basilica at Rome. It was reputed to be the most awesome church building in Europe in those days. The Pope, despite being the head of the Church, had such influence over European countries that it was said that he could influence the overthrow of kings in their own kingdom. To raise money for that building, the church began a series of excruciating taxation all over Europe. Quite naturally the money recovered from this means was not enough and so they enacted the outrageous doctrine on indulgence. In those days religious superstition thrived because very few people had access to the bible and did not know the word of God for them selves. So it is what the priest teaches you that you believe. So they taught the people the doctrine of purgatory (and Catholics still believe that) and said that loved ones who were dead were in purgatory and must be purged of their sins before being allowed into heaven. If the people were to pay a certain amount of money as indulgence money, it will speed up their exit from purgatory to heaven.

So the people who quite naturally wanted their loved ones to go speedily to heaven paid this money. In fact the more you pay the faster the process. A certain gentleman came to the town in Germany, from Rome, were Luther ministered to collect these indulgence money and Luther heard of it. Before that time, Luther a priest, had been having private bible studies with his students, because he was also a theological lecturer. They discovered from their study of Romans the profound doctrine of “Justification by Faith” (Romans 1:16,17). The implication of the doctrine in relation to these indulgence money was that there was no need for the people to taxed indulgence money. We gain acceptance with God by believing what Jesus wrought for us on the cross and we live the rest of our Christian life by faith; no amount of indulgence money can move God. It is faith that moves God.

Luther stormed a public building in his home town of Wittenberg and nailed what is today known as “Luther 95 theses” on the wall for people to read. On it he listed 95 errors of the Roman Catholic Church, including the error of indulgence. By that time the fire of Reformation had began to engulf Europe. I write these things so that those who read can simply access Wikipedia and look up stories on Martin Luther or Protestantism to confirm what I have written above. And of course to let us know that this is not the first time apostate churches have been pre-occupied with church buildings.

When the church looses her vision like it was in Luther’s days, it would begin to prioritize things that God doesn’t. In Luther days the errors was indulgence. Today, the error is tithe. One would have thought the money they collect through tithes and offering should be able to build these things they are continually shoring up, but never. They will always ask for more like Oliver Twist. So what do we have in our hand, a call for more money to build our own “modern day St. Peter basilica”.

In spite of the truths revealed by the reformers that liberated Christendom from the hands of men in those days, we still have a large part of Christians today as Roman Catholics. What is more depressing is that what our fathers liberated us from, we the children are returning to in bondage. The biggest culprit in this matter are Pentecostals. Their brazen ignorance is legendary. And this is further compounded by the miracles, signs and wonders that the Pastors display, which enslaves the worshipers and rids them of the ability to think. The doctrine of “touch not my anointed” has become so widespread that it is unbelievable how many have become servants to this lie. So the thinking is that a “man of God” should never be questioned; should never be criticized; should never be put in a bad light because if you do so, the anointing will fight against you. The implication is that these men have become demi-gods in their respective enclaves and they can do and undo; no one must talk.

When we question the tithe, they tell us that who are we to question what they do with tithe money, as long as we have paid the money we should leave them to God. And I say, where do you find such in the bible. Paul said this concerning monies being raised for the needy in Jerusalem under the ravaging effects of famine (and by the way all collections collected in the New Testament were always geared at providing for the poor and needy and not to build temples or buying private jet for pastors):

2 Corinthians 8:19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind: 20 Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us: 21 Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men. 22 And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you.

So the collections were to be as open as possible so that no one is blamed and that the minister provides honest things before God and men. In our days, we claim that man need not know what another man is using Church finances for. But here Paul tells us that both man and God should know. John had written in his epistles that the person who claims to love God who he does not see but hates his fellow man who he sees is lying. Same as the man who claims to be honest before God who he does not see but sees no reason to be accountable to man who he sees is not accountable to God in all reality.

The RCCG should cease to build bricks and begin to build men. The purpose of the pilgrimage to Lagos-Ibadan express way is dwindling every day. Pastor Adeboye is over 70 years old now. His biological clock is running out. A wise master builder will not necessarily be grooming a successor, like many of these men claim, but be working at imparting himself in a great number of the leaders under him to continue the work when he is no more. The proof that he is not doing this is in the fact that the leaders under him, just as the Church members too, cannot but continue going to “Camp” for spiritual blessings every month.

Jesus left 11 illiterate men, after only 3 years of earthly ministry, to continue the work he had begun. He trusted them to do the job not because they were able in themselves but He knew the Spririt of Truth will endue them from on high and enable them to do as he did. And those men turned their world “upside down” from Christ. When the Spirit of truth is absent in a place, another spirit takes over. What naturally the Spirit of God would do using men, any man for that matter, this other spirit will require only one man to do; and he must continue to do this things in the strength of the flesh. It is called another spirit, another gospel. That is why the priorities of this other spirit differ a great the deal from the priorities of the Holy Spirit. I call all men to beware – these are the last days when falsehood will reign.

Goshen360: Good people like you always ask for clarification and that's why I always say when I say things people don't understand, they should ask me questions.

Now, what I meant is, our spirit which is the new man born of God is always at opposite against the flesh, the old man we still carry after being born again. The flesh wants to do A thing but the spirit want to do God thing. So they are both at war with each other. Now, it is to who you subject yourself unto, that is who you serve, whether to the flesh to do the commands of the flesh or the spirit. The new man in you will never tell you do something against the nature of God, the new nature because God is working from the inside out but flesh is working from the outside in to fulfill a desire.

In such case, your spirit doesn't take side with what you have subjected yourself to by your will. Two natures warring one against the other. The true son-ship of God is now of those who are led by the Spirit from within and such shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. That's what scripture meant when it says, HE that is born of God does not sin and cannot sin - that he is not your outward man because it is the outward man that you carry before you got born again that you still carry after you became born again.

I needed that clarification; not just for me but against those who think teaching grace is teaching lawlessness. Thanks for the clarification.

Did you see my mail?

peedeeasobie: @Frosbel, Demi, Goshen, Embassey etc.
I want to teach and clear the air about tithing. If u tell me to teach, I will. Arguments will not teach, insults will not. There is no need insulting any Man of God. Tell me to teach.

You are free. Teach!

@Alwaystrue

You didn't understand me at all. I would have thought that a believer who is so intent on bearing Christian fruit and showing works that verify true faith will recognize an opportunity for peace and understanding even when they dis-agrees with another.

You can have it your way. I rest my case.