₦airaland Forum

Image123: +
You can't limit the workings of God's Spirit to the way He is working with you. Just has you don't want people to be forced to pay tithes, so also is it not okay for you to force people not to pay. Every one has their own motivation for service, their motivation does not have to be limited to yours. Let the people serve their God.
Cheers

Where the Spirit of God operates there is liberty: freedom to act or give. Where another spirit operates there is bondage: a call to obligation, leglaism, or tithing.

That is how to distinguish Candour position from Image's. Both claim inspiration from scriptures, both claim to be allowing people freedom in religion but one claims there should liberty to give any percentage the other insists the minimum must be 10%.

Thank U jare candour for referring me to this thread. Its been an eye opener. This is all I intend to say on this thread.

*Unfollows thread*

@Gombs

Proverbs 3:9-10, speaks about free will giving. Making God first in our finances. Its first fruit mentioned there and not tithes.

1 Corinthians 9 speaks of free will giving and not obligatory tithing.

Matthew 23:23 is Jesus speaking under the law.

Take the time to read the conclusion of the Q and A session in the OP.

^Thanks Pastor Kun.

Following my interview on the radio, I got traffic to my blog and many people very willing to be taught the truth in God's word.

It has encouraged me so that I will be devoting my effort more to such people on the blog and only come to NL once in a while.

Image is right in the scripture he quoted: strife about words does no one any good and sometimes I think that is all the discourse here result to.

Cheers.

Frosbel

Is there a link to that quote?

And I do hope the Americans are listening? We've had enough of wars.

Q: Good day Sir. Your article “I Cannot Afford to be a Christians” (http://yesufu..com/2013_09_02_archive.html) has generated some controversies. Can we say from that article that you are asking Christians to no longer give a tithe of their income to their local churches?


A: No.


Q: So what were you trying to say, in summary, from that article?


A: That article is simply an evangelistic message to non-Christians to reconsider the gospel of Jesus again. I was saying in that article that salvation is fully paid for by God for all men and to partake of it we are called to believe in Christ; Only. Now, as an addendum to the whole discourse, I brought in the issue of tithing; showing that tithing is one example, among others, in which modern organized churches have succeeded in discrediting this free salvation of Jesus; giving the impression that one is not a good Christian except the individual pays a tithe of his income. My grouse is with the word “pay”.


Q: So you are saying that Christians must not be asked to pay tithe, although they could give their tithe?


A: Exactly.


Q: Is there is difference between the word pay and give?


A: Plenty. The word pay denotes fulfilling an obligation; or meeting a prescribed requirement; or attaining the demands of a law. The word give denotes free will: a freedom to do as one purposes in one heart. The Old Testament clearly shows that the law required the children of Israel to pay tithe to the Levithical order (Numbers 18:21). The New Testament does not teach anywhere that Christians must pay tithes and offering. The scriptures show clearly that giving in the New Testament is simply free will and not obligatory or by necessity (1 Corinthians 9:7).


Q: How then did the concept of paying tithes and giving offering come into the church?


A: It came from a wrong interpretation and application of biblical truths. Most Christians today, following Paul’s revelation, accept that the laws of Moses have been abolished in the New Testament (Hebrew 7:12, 2 Corinthians 3:7, Galatians 3:24-27); they agree that Christians are not to pay tithes according to Moses’ injunction but they insist that we must follow the example of Abraham, who is the father of our faith, when he gave a tenth of the war spoils to Melchizedek. They say that Melchizedek is a type of Christ and for Abraham to give tithes to Melchizedek, Jesus is Melchizedek and we should give tithes to Christ through the church he has ordained on earth.


Q: But that makes perfect sense. So what do you have against Abraham’s tithing and the call for Christians to imitate him by tithing too?


Please read the conclusion of this interview on this link: http://www.yesufu..com/2013_09_12_archive.html

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire...27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Ephesians 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16[b] Redeeming the time[/b], because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Juxtaposing all of the scriptures I have quoted above, I want to say that I also do not find anywere where the word permisive will of God is used in the bible but from the meaning of the word "permissive" one can conclude that it means what God permits or allows, even though it is not his perfect will. Thus, we see from Romans 12: 2 that God's will may be good, acceptable or perfect and then Ephesians 5:16 tells us to understand the will of God for our lives and save our time from doing all kinds of things but simply do God's perfect will.

This leads us to what then is God's perfect will? God's perfect will is the scriptures. But will the scripture tell us to take up a job with Chevron or do a banking job or (for a lady, who wants to build a family), teach? No. Thus the need to know God's perfect will. the options so far may be good and acceptable but His perfect will shall come by learning to follow this dictates of God's Spirit in our hearts.

In the Matthew 5 scriptures, Jesus was speaking about things God permitted under Moses; even though his perfect will was the order way round. It is the Spirit of God alone that knows the mind of God and he alone can reveal that mind to us.

Permit me to bring a topic here that is very controversial on Nairaland. Tithing. I am convinced that if Jesus was to speak on tithing today based on the manner he spoke in Matthew 5 and 23 this is how he will put it: "Moses gave you the laws of tithing(Leviticus 27: 30-32; Numbers 18) ; and those laws are not binding on New Testament believers (Hebrew 7:12; 2 Corinthians 3:7; Galatians 3:24-27) but due to over bloated nature of organized churches, the tithes was re-introduced to the church and God permitted this because tithing is a kind of giving and every kind of giving to God will be blessed; however, God's perfect will is for the church to be supported by free will offerings that depicts the liberty of the Spirit that is the characteristic nature of the New Testament saint (Galatians 5:1; 2 Corinthians 3:17).

Thus permissive is not exactly sinful but simply permitted by God; although it has a higher tendency for abuse and it will not yield God's perfect will. But his perfect will is PERFECT and has the tendency to yield great results.

My opinion though...

luluosas: @BERNIMOORE, Mr. Fault Finder, what are you aiming to achieve with this your thread?

Mr False Prophet, is it not obvious what he is trying to do... To deliver Jesus' bride from marauders like you and OLAADEGBU.

At this point in your life, you need visions and revelations and not faith In Christ for your confidence to God's presence.

Now that Kumuyi has spoken, will U both SHUT YOUR TRAP.

I use this medium to extend my respect and admiration of Kumuyi for this very bold position he has taken over and against the position of draconians in his church. For me Kumuyi has redeemed himself from the opprobium that followed his son's wedding.

God bless U man of God. And thank U Benimmore for drawing our attention to this.

Candour, I hail O!

Excellent response from Pastor Kumuyi.

Although it is expected that believers should know better.

Now that Pastor Kumuyi has TALKED I hope OLAADEGBU'S ministry will end and he will find a better job to do.

Somebody sent this link to my blog. I guess the Living Faith church is developing a reputation for brutality these days. Here they are rerported brutalizing officials of Ogun State Govt. http:///McSk92oLxI

Mod'

Front page pls

https://www.nairaland.com/1430561/how-friend-brutalised-winners-chapel

Front page pls, mod'

BTW

I invite my friends to listen live to a radio presentation from the internet, anytime from 9am, as a popular broadcaster here in Ibadan has invited me for a live interview on my views which I shared with him that "a Christian revolution can fix Nigeria". We may also be discussing the above article.

The link to the radio broadcast: http://radio.securenetsystems.net/radio_player_large.cfm?stationCallSign=SPLASHFM

Splash FM, Ibadan.

Pastor Kun: @Drummaboy
I was wondering what took you so long to post this article on NL.

Abi O.

I just thought I should do it now, following the responses I got on my facebook and the fire I am facing in church bc of it right now!

The above title is my latest entry to my blog and I'm really surprised at the reaction of many folks to it. I would like to know what nairalanders' view is on it too.

For a summary: The article argues that salvation by Jesus is free and that the modern day gospel that call believers to PAY tithes is actually detracting from the power of the gospel and rendering it useless. And that many people would be Christians today if tithing was not made a pre-requsite for being a good Christian. Enjoy the article:

“I CANNOT AFFORD TO BE A CHRISTIAN”

Romans 8:32 - He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

2 Peter 1:2 - Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:


Evangelism remains a cardinal aspect of the Christian’s way of life. The call on us to “go ye…” by Jesus Christ cannot be over-emphasized especially in times like this when it seems the world itself is reeling from the weight of the sins of men. There is no other time in the history of the world that men need to hear the message of the saving works of Jesus Christ than now. But it seems to me that the world is tired of the gospel. An average non-Christian has heard these words “give your life to Christ…” so many times that it is making little sense to them day by day and thus there is a need to trust God for more creative ways of passing across the message of the cross to a world desperately in need of hearing it. As we endeavor to do this as Christians, we must also update ourselves about certain realities in the world today and the need for us as Christians to up our game, quit religion and avail ourselves as vessels to God to be used as his mouth piece to witness Jesus to a world in dire need of the salvation message.

One reality that we Christian seem not to notice about the mindset of a non Christian is the fact that many of such people cannot afford to be Christians. I use the word “afford” to drive home the fact that the Christianity that many espouse today cost too much financially and people cannot just afford to pay for it; and the best way of doing this is just to keep away from the gospel entirely. There is a certain false teaching in the heart and life of the Christian church today that says that for one to be a good Christian such an individual must pay a tithe of his income to a Christian clergy or to the church he worships in. And for this reason, many hard working and sensible individuals who, at one time or the other had considered the Christian message have been put off and relapsed into a world of sin. There is no scripture in the whole of the bible that says for one to be a Christian or for one to be a good Christian or for one to get to heaven, such an individual must pay a tithe of his weekly or monthly income to a clergy or church. To claim such is to put a sword through the heart of the gospel Jesus called the church to propagate around the world. The eternal gospel that God called us to tell the world is that Jesus Christ died a painful death on a Roman Cross to purchase salvation for the world. In doing this, Jesus paid for all that needs to be paid for. Anyone that believes the gospel of Jesus is not required to pay anything more both to be a Christian or to remain a Christian. Man’s salvation is fully paid for by the atoning work of Jesus on the cross of Calvary. Salvation is God’s free gift to human beings and any man can partake of this salvation by only believing in Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

This sort of conditional and false gospel tried to creep into the body of Christ in the early days of the apostles too. Christianity having been borne from a Jewish tradition was in danger of being influenced by Judaism, when some individuals began to say people could not be saved except they were circumcised first (Acts 15:1). This heresy was quickly dispelled by the apostles of Jesus when they showed the implication of Jesus’s dying on our faith: “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” (Acts 15:11). The grace of God in the cross of Jesus is the fact that God gives salvation freely to men and no one needs to work to earn it, talk less of paying for it. Grace is a favour that is not merited neither can it be paid for. The doctrine that teaches that Christians must pay tithe to their local churches is a false doctrine that is the result of a wrong interpretation of the tithe God demanded from the Children of Israel in the Old Testament as a kind of taxation to support the religious and civil life of those people. The tithe of the Old Testament is ten percent of the agricultural produce from God’s holy land. A land that God gave to the children of Israel and He instituted the tithe from any produce off that Land to be a paid to a tribe, the levites, who had no inheritance on the land. This tithe was expected to paid once, following the harvest, and was to be given to the levithes, who in turn paid a tithe of what they received to the priests for their own upkeep. The tithe was never money, even though money existed in Old Testament times. That system of tithing is however, today, defuct and obsolete, because the church of Jesus Christ is not physical Israel and there are no levities to pay tithes to today.

Jesus has paid all that needs to be paid and God is not demanding anything from anyone save for simple faith in what Jesus has done on the cross for sinful humanity. What did Jesus do? God created a good world. A world devoid of sin, sickness, poverty and every sort of ill. He created man and put man in the world he created but man sinned and lost his relationship with God. In spite of this set back, God put in motion another plan to redeem man. When Jesus was to be born, the reason for his coming was stated: He was to come and save man from his sins (Matthew 1:21). Jesus did this by living a sinless life on earth by fulfilling the righteous requirements of the laws God had given Moses. In the laws of Moses, men could pay for their sins by killing a lamb. However, Jesus, who had lived the law perfectly, became a sinless lamb, whom God set forth as a propitiation for our sin. Like in the days of Moses, God put the sins of the whole world on Jesus and He died as the sacrificial Lamb of God for the sins of all men. Jesus paid for our sins by his death on a Roman Cross. This is what Jesus did.

But the story did not end there, Jesus would however, rise up from the dead after three days in the grave, having purchased eternal salvation for all who will believe in Him. This is the crux of the gospel message and this is what satan has been attacking from all times. When a man, having heard the gospel message, is convicted of his sins and repents before God, such a man is forgiven by God and is made a new creation in Christ. Such an individual is saved and has begun a glorious journey in God that started in grace and will most certainly end in grace. Such an individual need not pay a penny to be saved, to remain saved or to be saved into God’s glorious kingdom.

To conclude this essay, I wish to offer a proper and balanced perspective on the whole matter of money in the Christian church. While God does not demand we pay tithes or offering to be members of the Church His Son purchased with His blood, God demands our love. The truth is that a genuinely born-again individual will have God’s love shed abroad in his heart. He will see life from a new perspective: he would love God and he would love human beings. It is this love God has placed in the heart of such a converted fellow that leads him to give because love always gives. This giving is not by compulsion (2Corinthians 9:7) as is falsely depicted by the doctrine of tithing, but free will. What this free will giving shall be is not a matter for any church or pastor to determine for any of God’s saints: an individual may be so blessed by God that he determines in his heart to give 10% of his income to support the church were he is being discipled. That is just fine; but what he gives is not a tithe but a tenth of his income.

Despite the position I have taken in this essay I still encourage giving to the church because of the great need for the propagation of the gospel in these last days. There is the need for more money in mission works to parts of the world that have never heard the gospel message; there is the need to take care of the weak in the church: widows, orphans, the sick, homeless, jobless, etc. And there is the need to minister our physical blessings to our Pastors, as they minister spiritual things to us. All of these needs in church can be adequately taken care of by graceful, sacrificial, free willed offering; without the need to impose the false burden of tithe paying on the flock of God.

The message of this essay is that salvation is free: fully paid for by the death of Jesus on the cross. We cannot purchase salvation by good works, circumcision or by tithing. God is calling on every person who is not a Christian to re consider the gospel message, not in the light of the false one that the demands money from you but in the light of the true gospel that says God does not desire a penny from you; rather, God desires you. God has fully paid for your salvation in Christ Jesus and you need not pay anything to receive it or to keep it. Every human being created by God can afford to be a Christian because salvation in Jesus Christ is free!

1. I shall be writing a comprehensive essay on why Tithing Is Not An Obligation For The New Testament Christian in the very near future. In that essay, I shall be looking at all the scripture were the word tithe or tenth is mentioned in the bible with the hope of driving home the lesson that tithing is not required of Christians today.

bentenny: i would like to thank every one that has contributed his or her own opinion to this issue...i never knew public forums like nairaland had such enlightened individuals..i have actually learnt a lot about this 'tithe' wahala..just hope such doesnt happen to me ...well,the buttomline is that my friend and his girlfriend have brought their 3-year relationship to an end due to disagreements over the tithe or tithe struggle and other hidden issues unknown to me...my friend was willing to accept her tithing belief..suggesting that there were more important issues to tackle but his girlfriend insisted that she can't marry a man who does'nt tithe!(na wa oh )..so thats actually the latest update so far...its really a pity.......!

too bad!

ledafaze: There is a man whom I love so much and I try get his printed works as part of my collection... They call him the prince of preachers... He is Charles Surgeon... He said and I quote...

With what you have quoted above, you are on the same page with the teachers and organizers of the convention. Thank you for this.

bentenny: tank U so much...i will definitely keep you posted about my friend and his lady..please is it true that such issues were treated in previous threads?
if true,cud u help me with the links to such?
tank you so much and God bless U!

https://www.nairaland.com/1239719/questions-frosbel-tithing

https://www.nairaland.com/1319662/goshen360s-exposition-hebrew-7-abrahams

https://www.nairaland.com/307798/says-tithing-not-new-testamental

And many others like it and you could visit my blog on my signature below

ledafaze: Yes...

The definition of Grace and how faith comes into the picture...

Ever heard of Faith renewed by Grace?

Please Faith started in the Old Testament.... Grace in the New Testament...

Sir,

Follow the teachings as enumerated on the time table of the convention on this link, you will find the answers to your questions there. The teachers for the convention did justice to your questions and others:

https://www.nairaland.com/1416947/welcome-e-grace-convention-2013/1#17754058

ledafaze: Faith as the precondition for grace? Please please please...

Do you have a question on this?

bentenny: My friend sam is in a relationship with a lady that he loves so much and she also loves him too but the problem is that they have different beliefs when it comes to matters of tithes and offering especially tithes.
My friend believes tithes were practised as a requirement in the old covenant and was used as a means by God to feed the levites and priest who had no allotment in the land,he also believes that after christ resurrection,the temple became non existent, so he was not required to tithe but rather offer free will giving and contribution as his heart leads him.
The lady believes that tithes after christ ressurection became a principle and so still keeps tithing....its now turning to an everyday debate and its almost threatening their relationship of 3years(note:both are very good christians)..please how can they reach a compromise and agree on what to do or whats the way forward for them?
Please your sincere advise and contributions are welcome!

I would have found myself in that situation some three years ago when I was courting my wife. But then I still believed in tithing and it was not an issue in our relationship. Five months ago, when I stopped tithing, I talked it over with my wife and though it was a really tensed situation, and she was unhappy about it, we resolved that as long as she could still pay her own tithe, the matter will not be an issue btw us. She even refused to listen to whatever reason led me to such conviction. She felt I had been deceived and close loosing my faith in God.

Five months later, I get to share my conviction with her on tithing little by little; she is now convinced that tithing is not a legal requirement for Christians but she gives a tenth of her income as a "freewill offering" to the church.

I related my story to draw home the fact that this matter is a very serious issue. On the one hand couples should share a similar faith, at least the fundamentals of their faith, if not it will tear at the foundation of their home. And if they do not have this, it is better they do not marry. On the other hand, what is really a fundamental to our faith? Tithe? This is the real issue. The Matthew 23:23 that many quote as the only justification for tithing showed Jesus implying that tithing is not a weighty matter or it is not fundamental. When did tithing become a fundamental issue in Christianity? It became fundamental when false prophets, benefiting illegally from it, made it so.

Now, it is easy for those of us who are not in this couple's shoes to just say they cannot marry bc they do not share a similar faith. But do we know what goes into the making of a relationship? Especially one that has lasted three years. I will give my advice in two fold, directing one to the husband and the other to the wife below, bc I know that I have a great home and with lovely children and if I had gotten the revelation on tithing, like I do now, three years ago, it would not have given me a home like I have it. I am saying the tithe matter should not stop this home from becoming a reality: So,

Lady/Wife:

Assume you are in your husband's home already. If you were and a matter arise, is this how you will continue to debate it? The bible commands the wife to submit to the husband. Take your time and read the following "evidences" I provide on NL on why tithing is no longer acceptable in today's Christianity.

I will refer you to these websites

www.tithing101.com (you can download a book here)

http://tekoapublishing.com/books/tithing/index.html (a book make up the website with each chapter on each webpage)

http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/

and you can download a book on tithing by a young Nigerian, Mofesola, here:

http://mb.mettalloids.com/tithe-and-you-the-book/

Tithing has been overly debated on NL; there is no evidence that this will reduce. We have people who keep asking the kind of question in the OP. Do your research; Study the scriptures; weight the arguments both for and against; check the website and pray. Then make your decision based on what God leads you to do and not what people claim could happen to you in the name of curse or curses.

Man/Husband:

You may not be married now but assume you were how will you handle your differences. Read Romans 14 and see there what Paul cations to do with non-weighty matters of doctrine like tithing. "He that tithe, to the Lord he tithe. He that doesn't tithe, to the Lord he doesn't tithe". Do not condemn your wife tithing; permit her to and trust God to bring her to understand the matter like you did, no matter how long.

If the point of difference of belief was the question of how to be saved; Jesus being the son of God or other fundamentals of our faith, ehen, you may say, let's put off the marraige; but if it is for a mere matter of tithing, pls do not. I advice, though, that you both work this matter out sufficiently before you go to the altar.

I wish you all the best. And, OP, do let us know how the thing is going btw the two of them.

Cheers.

Enjoyed this story and shared it immediately on my Facebook page. Thanks Abijam for it.

@Enigma. Issokay!

@christembassey. Thank u for sticking out with us this long. I think i get ur point and i made dat clear in mY last post. Sometimes i think d limitations in d english language contributes to long debates. Maybe will try greek next time. Lolz. As for d guy who request for ayoku paper i pass that to goshen to decide. @ enigma. Sir pls i am requsting a Q and A session with U. I see there is a wealth of knowledge in u that must be explored. If its ok with u i will open the thread tomorrow? Thanks in anticipation.

striktlymi: The first ever e-grace convention deserves a place in the hall of fames...


https://www.nairaland.com/1416947/welcome-e-grace-convention-2013

I second this motion. Thanks Strikt.

This story is made up. While I do not support what that Pastor did, it is a graver sin to say someone said somethings, as the Pastor is quoted as saying here, when he didn't say such.

Mynd_44: Epistles make my head ache jorh

So how else can you learn?

As one of the organizers of the E-Convention, what the OP erroneously called a heresy has been put in proper perspective below:

DrummaBoy:

alexleo: @Christemmbassy,

If someone has been born again and as time goes on he falls into the sin of fornication etc. do you mean that the person has not sinned? Because he is under grace?

christemmbassey: my brother take a look @ d story of d prodigal son, to his elder brother, he was a terrible sinner and deserved no mercy or welcome, but to their father, he never sined, that was why, as he rushed out to welcome d boy and d boy started convesions, d father did not even hear, his main concern was, "my boy was lost, but is now found, he was dead, but now lives, lets celebrate. Fortunately, for us christians, we have an elder brother who loves us (unlike the jealous law of Moses keeping elder brother of d prodigal son,) who d bible says "is nt ashame to call us brethren. Yes to you, he sin, but to God he never sined, bc "he can nt commit sin" 1jn 3:9, a christian is NOT 'a forgiven man' but 'a JUSTIFIED man'. He is innoscent, acquited, decleard, 'not guilty', why? Bc, every sin commited, d spirit activate a bill, grace paid up and is back dated to Calvary, IT LIKE SOME ONE DEPOSITED MONEY IN A SHOP AND GAVE A PERPETUAL STANDING ORDER, THAT ANY TIME U PICK SMTHING FROM THAT SHOP, D SHOP KEEPER SHOULD REMOVE FROM D CONTIGENCY FUND. should we indulge in sin bc of this? GOD FORBID BAD THING?. Now my bros, d man dat used to commit sin, died @ Calvary, d one dat lives now is Christ, Gal 2:20. CHRIST CAN NOT COMMIT SIN. He is holy and righteous. God bless u sir..

Enigma: 1 John 1

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.


And John was writing to Christians.

My Position

I think that Enigma and Christembassey are on the same page here. The two have provided scripturally correct positions to the question asked by Alexleo. The question is (paraphrased) can a believer commit the sin of fornication? My answer is: is there a greater sin in Christendom today than the sin of fornication? We may say yes there are others; but in reality, practice and perspective of the average Christian, there is no greater sin than the sin of fornication. If you are in doubt ask COZA. LOLZ!

But my point in that answer is that there are greater sins than the sin of fornication. It was the late Pastor R B Thieme that coined the term "mental attitude sins", when he tried to describe Jesus discourse about defilement coming from within and not without; and how Christ said that beholding a woman in a manner is as bad as a sin of adultery. Women may not understand this, but there is no man on earth that doesn't know this kind of sin: Lust. When we realize that mental attitude sin is as bad as any overt sin, we must then resort to scripture to help us comprehend sin in its true nature and let the same scripture offer to us the solution Jesus came to provide for the all consuming problem of sin (Matthew 1:21).

I said all that only to prove the fact that Enigma and Christembassey are right. The bible and the grace that came with Jesus provided two solutions to sin; and it is the two position each of our teachers have provided above, albeit independently. There is a positional solution to sin, that causes God to impart Jesus' righteousness on all that believe such that sin or no sin, such a believer cannot sin! There is an outworking solution for sin also: so that the believer that sin, and sins as gravely as fornication or any mental attitude sin, causes the Spirit of God within him to be grieved, which should make a sensitive believer to be convicted of sin and leads him to ask God for forgiveness. It is for this that the scripture, 1 Jn 1:8,9, applies so adequately to.

In trying to blend the two positions of our teachers above, I wish that every Christian is not so concerned about sin or no sin; but rather with the grace that Jesus died for us to enjoy. Let sin, like the matter of praying against satan, be relegated to a background, where believers can privately meet God and settle scores with. If we should be concerned about sin at all, let us be concerned about our own sins: the log in our own eye! The danger with an overly concern with sin, especially the sins of others, is the tendency toward self righteousness and pride: a mental attitude sin that outweighs all of fornication and adultery combined together.

alexleo: @Christemmbassy,

If someone has been born again and as time goes on he falls into the sin of fornication etc. do you mean that the person has not sinned? Because he is under grace?

christemmbassey: my brother take a look @ d story of d prodigal son, to his elder brother, he was a terrible sinner and deserved no mercy or welcome, but to their father, he never sined, that was why, as he rushed out to welcome d boy and d boy started convesions, d father did not even hear, his main concern was, "my boy was lost, but is now found, he was dead, but now lives, lets celebrate. Fortunately, for us christians, we have an elder brother who loves us (unlike the jealous law of Moses keeping elder brother of d prodigal son,) who d bible says "is nt ashame to call us brethren. Yes to you, he sin, but to God he never sined, bc "he can nt commit sin" 1jn 3:9, a christian is NOT 'a forgiven man' but 'a JUSTIFIED man'. He is innoscent, acquited, decleard, 'not guilty', why? Bc, every sin commited, d spirit activate a bill, grace paid up and is back dated to Calvary, IT LIKE SOME ONE DEPOSITED MONEY IN A SHOP AND GAVE A PERPETUAL STANDING ORDER, THAT ANY TIME U PICK SMTHING FROM THAT SHOP, D SHOP KEEPER SHOULD REMOVE FROM D CONTIGENCY FUND. should we indulge in sin bc of this? GOD FORBID BAD THING?. Now my bros, d man dat used to commit sin, died @ Calvary, d one dat lives now is Christ, Gal 2:20. CHRIST CAN NOT COMMIT SIN. He is holy and righteous. God bless u sir..

Enigma: 1 John 1

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.


And John was writing to Christians.

My Position

I think that Enigma and Christembassey are on the same page here. The two have provided scripturally correct positions to the question asked by Alexleo. The question is (paraphrased) can a believer commit the sin of fornication? My answer is: is there a greater sin in Christendom today than the sin of fornication? We may say yes there are others; but in reality, practice and perspective of the average Christian, there is no greater sin than the sin of fornication. If you are in doubt ask COZA. LOLZ!

But my point in that answer is that there are greater sins than the sin of fornication. It was the late Pastor R B Thieme that coined the term "mental attitude sins", when he tried to describe Jesus discourse about defilement coming from within and not without; and how Christ said that beholding a woman in a manner is as bad as a sin of adultery. Women may not understand this, but there is no man on earth that doesn't know this kind of sin: Lust. When we realize that mental attitude sin is as bad as any overt sin, we must then resort to scripture to help us comprehend sin in its true nature and let the same scripture offer to us the solution Jesus came to provide for the all consuming problem of sin (Matthew 1:21).

I said all that only to prove the fact that Enigma and Christembassey are right. The bible and the grace that came with Jesus provided two solutions to sin; and it is the two position each of our teachers have provided above, albeit independently. There is a positional solution to sin, that causes God to impart Jesus' righteousness on all that believe such that sin or no sin, such a believer cannot sin! There is an outworking solution for sin also: so that the believer that sin, and sins as gravely as fornication or any mental attitude sin, causes the Spirit of God within him to be grieved, which should make a sensitive believer to be convicted of sin and leads him to ask God for forgiveness. It is for this that the scripture, 1 Jn 1:8,9, applies so adequately to.

In trying to blend the two positions of our teachers above, I wish that every Christian is not so concerned about sin or no sin; but rather with the grace that Jesus died for us to enjoy. Let sin, like the matter of praying against satan, be relegated to a background, where believers can privately meet God and settle scores with. If we should be concerned about sin at all, let us be concerned about our own sins: the log in our own eye! The danger with an overly concern with sin, especially the sins of others, is the tendency toward self righteousness and pride: a mental attitude sin that outweighs all of fornication and adultery combined together.

christemmbassey: @ all, **pls sing with me** "it is enough that Jesus died and that he died for me (2x) , I have NO other argument, I have NO other plea - for, it is enough that Jesus died AND THAT HE DIED FOR MEEEEEEEEEEEE!. I want to apologise to all 4 d delay of my presentation, I have told Goshen d reasons behind d delays which are still valid, but d real truth is that, when it comes to preaching d Good News to d poor and equiping/edificatin of d Saints, i do not endore 'academic or intelectual process, tro prepared speach, I believe that God always want to speak to his ppl directly on d spur of d moment, so i'd rather stand, open and close my mouth n let God tro his spirit speak directly. So I planed to come online an hour b4 Am due to make a live presentation, but few hours to my time, my pc packed up, hence d delay. I know in d process of trying to articulate thoughts on paper n d presure of late presentation, many vital points are lost, but I trust d Spirit, our great teacher will increase and perfect you as regards this paper according to his purpose. AMEN. I thank Goshen, Drummaboy, Tgirl, d mods, all d teachers, Bidam, Image123, that sister who blessed us so much with those very edifying hymes, ATMC, all d attendees christians n non-christians alike and the Almighty God for the GRACE to share in this convention. "Grace and Peace be multiplied to all tro d knowledge of God and of his son Jesus. Who tro his Divine power hath given to us ALL THINGS THAT PERTAINS TO LIFE AND GODLINESS" AMEN. Praise the Lord!!! Abeg make una bring ur tithes and painful seeds that will move god hand n leg in ur direction, * i dey l tell una ooo,* key in ooo to dis grace, *laughs n leaves d podium*

truthislight: Sharrap !

Haba truth, take am easy now

I took out today to again study this thread and I must confess it has been very rewarding. The debate was hot but it was worth the effort opening the thrad. I hope people we find it a blessing as it has been to me.

I am DrummaBoy and I endorse every word written above by our brother and Pastor christembassey. Being the only practicing pastor among the presenter the preaching can be felt. God bless u our brother. The floor is still open to Q and A!