₦airaland Forum

JesusisLord85:

Ok lets look at Acts 15 because I keep getting questions on this, and some of your questions are on this:

JesusisLord85:

Acts 15:19-22 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren."


A carnal mind will read this and conclude that it proves that there are only four rules for Gentiles coming into the faith, to obey. Clearly, the whole Torah was not forced on the Gentiles all at once. The did not mention steal, kill, adultery, so obviously, there is more to this. Did God force the whole Torah on the Israelites at once? Was it not over a period of time? Here, they are trying to say that the Gentiles would learn the Torah over time, hearing it each week in the synagogues.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak. 10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

JesusisLord85:

Acts 15:21 "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."


Why do you people ignore this key verse in the passage? I bet when many read it they gloss over it, thinking, what has Torah being taught each week in synagogues have to do with Gentiles. And, importantly, why is it mentioned alongside four of the many laws? As I keep repeating on this forum, it is because they would learn it as the began to fellowship in the synagogue alongside their Jewish brethren. Only after pointing out the Gentiles would learn Torah weekly "did it please the apostles and elders" (verse 22) to send this letter out.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

JesusisLord85:

Acts 15:5-11 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Before jumping to gentile conclusions, lets approach this passage like I approached Galatians for you.
1. Who demanded conversion by circumcision and observing the law of Moses?
2. How did this group define the ‘law’
3. What was the response of the apostles to this particular group of gentlemen, and why
4. What do OTHER passages in scripture teach us about observing the law for gentiles and the Israelites

Please be patient and follow

JesusisLord85:

God is unchanging. Even Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away before one stroke from the Torah/Law (Yahweh’s instructions) be removed.
Matthew 5:17-18
“17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “

I just quoted Jesus oh! Even if you {falsely} interpret Paul to teach a contrary message, then you ought to reject it because Jesus is Lord. But as many know, Paul has been widely misunderstood.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ephesians 3: 1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ

Goshen360: I sure will. But seriously, you write more than I do. I troway salute bro. And less I forget, LWKMD real hard @ Torah lo, tooro ni...

2. That even though we are saved by grace through faith, we are expected to keep the Mosaic laws as listed in the Torah or Old Testament, after our salvation, as this is how the early churches lived following their salvation.

Acts 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus. 5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister...14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. 16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?...30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Goshen360: @ D'Boy,

Blessed art thou amongst the disciples Jesus loved. Great and good contending works.

1. The traditional/orthodox view of Galatians as a letter of rebuke from Paul to the Galatians churches who were becoming influenced by the Jewish religion (Judaism, as interpreted by the NIV bible) is wrong. Rather Paul was rebuking these people for subjecting themselves to the oral traditions - the same traditions Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for

1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you

4:17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them. 18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

shdemidemi: @drummaboy

You are a constant source of refreshment and blessing. The Lord grant unto you that you may find mercy of the Lord in that day.

JesusisLord85: lol. Can you imagine. So the evidence I use, he now says the APOSTLES of God were "copping out".
The Gentiles won't kill me.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

JesusisLord85:

I see you have many questions. I cannot attend to you only. I will
reveal the truth slowly, to all at the same time. Why will I spend 90%
of my time teaching those whose ears are shut up?
Let me go to the lost sheep.

JesusisLord85:

We also know that Jesus considered the "traditions of the elders" not equal to written Torah. Often times the oral tradition violated the written Torah (Mark 7:9).
Matthew 15:2-3
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

This verse gives real insight into the people that the apostles are confronting. Would they even be having this debate if the concern was the written Torah, the word of God? Of course not.

JesusisLord85:

Like Christ, the apostles upheld written Torah but rebuked those advocates of legalism, i.e. oral law. Basically, members of Pharisaic Judaism.

JesusisLord85:

So, to answer the first question, it is the Pharisees who are making the demands mentioned in Acts 15:5. The passage is dealing with whether the Gentiles needed to convert according to Pharisaic traditions, i.e. become proselytes to Pharisaic Judaism. How can they be talking about messianic Judaism, Jesus just spent his time teaching the Jews the scriptures, and now you’re saying they do away with all that? That is absurd.
We already know by checking other scriptures that Gentiles could be saved without going through the rituals of becoming a proselyte - the belief of Cornelius and his family confirms this (Acts 10).
To us, some 2000 years later circumcision is just one law out of the 613 laws in Torah. However, from the 1st century Pharisaic perspective, circumcision was the means by which one became a proselyte. (Notice I am not even talking about conversion to Christianity here. Jesus didn't even know what a Christian was. Chei.) That is why this ritual is being singled out as a demand apart from its inclusion in the Torah. Generally obeying the law is not the issue, this passage is bothered with how the Gentiles convert, and the requirements thereof.
Notice they didn’t complain that the Gentiles don’t keep kosher and the law, or the Sabbath and the law. The law already includes these things. It is singled out because it is what they consider to be the rites of passage to becoming a proselyte to Pharisaic Judaism.

It might sound absurd that circumcision had become a conversion ritual by the Pharisees, but today, baptism is sometimes misused as a means of joining a particular church. For example me refusing to be baptised in the Mormon church is my rejection of Mormonism, and NOT baptism per se!

The apostles rejected the Pharisaic demand that the Gentiles should undergo the Pharisaic circumcision ritual, AND NOT circumcision itself, that was not the debate. Why do you people imagine a vain thing?

At that time, the gospel was being received by Gentiles without them having to go through the conversion ritual of the Pharisees. God accepted the Gentiles as they were, hence he "made no distinction between us and them" (Acts 15:9).

"Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

JesusisLord85:

Side note: can Mr two-gospel shdemidemi explain how this Jew was preaching a gospel to the Gentiles that God had lead him to do? According to you, only Paul knew the full truth and that truth was given to the gentiles. lol

JesusisLord85:

Peter argued against the Pharisees, warning not to put a yoke on the new believers, a yoke neither they nor their fathers could bear; this yoke is the Pharisaic oral tradition. How can Peter be teaching that the commandments of God is bondage? That would be blasphemy!. Jesus said:

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

Now doesn’t that sound more like the yoke Peter is alluding to? The yoke many of you have blasphemously claimed is the very word of God?

See what Jesus also says to the Pharisees:
Mattew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

So we can see that the oral tradition of the Pharisees is a burden, NOT the commandments of the Most High God. God’s way is freedom, contrary to what many of you teach here:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach freedom to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18,19
This echos Isaiah 61:1 (please check, I'm trying to keep this tight, it is late)

Liberty is defined in Psalms 119:44-45
"So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts."

Leviticus 26:13
"I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright."

How can you say God brought them out of bondage, and gave them the instructions (his word, his Torah), which you also define as bondage? The traditions of man is the bondage.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

JesusisLord85:

Ok so let’s look at the demand by the Pharisees that the Gentiles keep the Law of Moses. To the Pharisees, the Law of Moses means both the written word (Torah) and the oral Torah (their traditions) – remember their dialogue with Jesus in Matthew 15:2-3. These people considered them equal. So when they say the Gentiles should keep the Law of Moses, they are not making any distinction between their traditions and the written Torah. Simple enough.

Let’s not forget that the Gentile’s were given four ‘starter laws’, and were to learn the rest of the law each week in the synagogues. And we know that these laws come from the Torah. Obviously, the apostles were not making up a new set of laws.
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."

I will go into detail why these are specifically mentioned as things the gentiles must adhere to immediately. That will come tomorrow. Early start tomorrow.

Shalom

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Colosians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

JesusisLord85:

Ok lets look at Acts 15 because I keep getting questions on this, and some of your questions are on this:

JesusisLord85:

Acts 15:19-22 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren."


A carnal mind will read this and conclude that it proves that there are only four rules for Gentiles coming into the faith, to obey. Clearly, the whole Torah was not forced on the Gentiles all at once. The did not mention steal, kill, adultery, so obviously, there is more to this. Did God force the whole Torah on the Israelites at once? Was it not over a period of time? Here, they are trying to say that the Gentiles would learn the Torah over time, hearing it each week in the synagogues.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak. 10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

JesusisLord85:

Acts 15:21 "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."


Why do you people ignore this key verse in the passage? I bet when many read it they gloss over it, thinking, what has Torah being taught each week in synagogues have to do with Gentiles. And, importantly, why is it mentioned alongside four of the many laws? As I keep repeating on this forum, it is because they would learn it as the began to fellowship in the synagogue alongside their Jewish brethren. Only after pointing out the Gentiles would learn Torah weekly "did it please the apostles and elders" (verse 22) to send this letter out.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

JesusisLord85:

Acts 15:5-11 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Before jumping to gentile conclusions, lets approach this passage like I approached Galatians for you.
1. Who demanded conversion by circumcision and observing the law of Moses?
2. How did this group define the ‘law’
3. What was the response of the apostles to this particular group of gentlemen, and why
4. What do OTHER passages in scripture teach us about observing the law for gentiles and the Israelites

Please be patient and follow

JesusisLord85:

God is unchanging. Even Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away before one stroke from the Torah/Law (Yahweh’s instructions) be removed.
Matthew 5:17-18
“17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “

I just quoted Jesus oh! Even if you {falsely} interpret Paul to teach a contrary message, then you ought to reject it because Jesus is Lord. But as many know, Paul has been widely misunderstood.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ephesians 3: 1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ

JesusisLord85: The problem they have is they misinterpret Paul in the first place. Paul was not against the law. Acts 21:20-24 proves that, as many of his writings, it is just they view it through the prism of a gentile.

I am yet to see where it was writte among the prophets that the Messiah would come to, alongside setting people from sin (sin is transgression of the law), but also 'free' them to be lawless.lol it is simply not written.

AMOS 3:7 "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

The church was a group of Jews who follwoed after Christ. Today's church today, despite not obeying the laws of observing the Lords feasts, reckon they are a special people who were never prophesied about. If you are not grafted into the olive tree, then you are not part of the bride. Period.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

1 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious

Galatians1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law...22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Hebrew 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrew 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Tgirl4real: This thread is so so interesting. I'm following.

Tgirl4real: Awww... Sorry dear Sir.

I just don't wanna open another thread...may be I should sha, but that will be 2mrw.

Sorry bruv.

Tgirl4real: I just went through the last 2 pages...

Gosh! I don't see how these can edify anyone. Sad!

Tgirl4real: I just went through the last 2 pages...

Gosh! I don't see how these can edify anyone. Sad!

JesusisLord85: haha if obeying the commandments makes me a 'Judaizer', then God bless you for recognising this.
So God denouncing the superficial use of the law, how does that support the idea that he dissolved the law? God wants to be worshipped in spirit and truth.
When you can show me that Yashua was a Christian, then I will follow your teachings.
Lol your quote is hilarious "you would realize that the law was not the central point of the Jewish religion... it was Jehovah God and what he demanded from his people" :s
The torah is God's instruction for his people my friend, stop talking nonsense.

Let me show you what the bible says about the righteous:

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Luke 1:6
And they were both righteous before God,walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

2 Peter 2:21
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

What do you people not understand about keeping the commandments? Or was John a false teacher?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

@Drummaboy, so is all this calling my username is because I refused to visit your thread. ?

Whatever name you chose to call anyone does not add or remove anything from them, not even a hair so if your opinion makes you happy by all means be happy.

Whatever you do not understand but claim absolute knowledge on shows more learning is required.

The word is a two-esged sword. You do not know it all. Cheers.e word of God

JesusisLord85: Lol so you now quote indirectly from the law. Shame it does not apply here.

MostHigh: 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law


KINDLY DIGEST THE ABOVE AGAIN ACTS 21

Now, MostHigh quotes a passage in Acts were it was said that Paul went to offer a vow at the instance of James and the other apostles.

Acts 21:17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly [b]what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

He claims from this passage that Paul lived like a Jew. That passage is easy to explain with two verses found in 1 Corinthians 9:

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

From this passage we can learn that Paul was free from pleasing men; he exercised his full liberty in Christ to live and preach the gospel of grace. But so as to win the Jews he lived like a Jew and subjected himself to the law. Jerusalem, at the time Paul visited, was in uproar. The allegation made against Paul that he taught men not to live under the law WAS TRUE. James and others’ suggestion was the sort of “wisdom” Paul had discussed about in the above passage. His main aim of going to Jerusalem, was to testify about Christ to the Jews, as he would later do to Ceasar, so that the Jews could have their very last warning from God to accept Christ or be overthrown (as it happened in AD 70). So Paul took up the vow and went into the temple to make the sacrifices, to be under the law, all in a bid to be acceptable to his people so that he could have the chance to tell them about Christ.

Apparently, it did not work. But they got the testimony they needed to hear. And Jesus confirming this testimony stood by Paul subsequently and told him the same way he testified of him before the Jews, he was to do the same before Caesar (Acts 23:11). Any sound bible scholar will realize that the message of that section of Scripture was not that Paul lived like a Jew but simply that Paul did everything, including coming under the law, to witness to his people.

Another example to buttress this point is Paul taking Timothy and circumcising him. He did this so that Timothy’s message before the Jews will not be rebuffed. But notice that he did not circumcise Titus (Galatains 2:3). So if Paul kept the law strictly, he would have circumcised Timothy and Titus but he did for one and not for the other. It is called walking in wisdom.

flourishG: yes,if the Spirit had led da brother.against such there's no law.He is the son of God.but we will not leave dem our judaizer brothers alone until christ be FORMED in them.

christemmbassey:

Q E D. If they av conscience at all, this is
more than enough to shut them up. 10million likes.

vickyO: this bernimoore dey gimme joy........

alexleo: [/b]

And that's what it is my dear. The most important thing to me is that I was led by God to do what i did and i have peace in my heart for that. If he doesn't see it that way then thats for him. It doesn't worry me. ssome of this people i abused may not have seen a post where i apologised due to the fact that they may not be interested in the topic being discussed in the thread. I read some places i quoted here last night, and deliberated on it, prayed about it sincerely and saw that i failed on my path. Then came the ministration to apologise and in the cause of it i decided to share the bible quotes too. i wonder how this should be a problem. Something that has nothing to put in my pocket except the peace i have in my heart. Like i said, i owe my loyalty to God and not anybody. God bless you.