₦airaland Forum

Alwaystrue:

You really are one funny guy.

The only person getting worked up over tithe and going on the offensive
is you. You said I was getting worked up on the other thread? No one
mentioned tithe on the other thread, yet you were asking me why I was
offended on why you do not tithe. You are trying too hard. Seems you
were thinking aloud and like looking for offense where there is none.
Lol.

I can see you like argument and can't seem to help seeing my posts. It
is fine. Whatever you say does not move me and I have made that clear
long before now.
If you do not see me fit to discuss bible matters with, then leave my
post when you see it. Try not to discuss with me by force. This your
grouse is so petty and it shows in your posts. If the best way to deal
with people is to insult them and have no apologies then you have God to
answer to. I am not bothered about insults, I just gave advice to you
as it is not becoming of those who profess to love.

I said whatever you fit is ok for you, go ahead, why should I prove you
wrong. You say one thing and do another. Now that you have said your
bit, please try to be happy. I have peace of mind with what I post.
Thanks for the advice.

Deep
Sight:
My deepest apologies, Anony and all.

I cannot continue this thread because I will be permanently withdrawing
from Nairaland going forward on account of the unacceptable disposition
of the owner of the site.

Best wishes.

5. That Paul writings cannot be taken as final authority for today's church rather our final authority must be taken from the Old Testament. And if at all we would consider Paul's letters, they must be seen in the light of Jesus' teachings.

4. That the Torah was the scripture of Paul's day and that Paul and the other apostles had no new revelation that could be called scripture or final authority on doctrine and practice for the churches in first century Palestine.

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Ephesians 2: 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

3. That Paul and the other apostles of Jesus lived like Jews after their conversion and subsequently taught this to the gentile churches, albeit bit by bit, according to Acts 15:21, in the synagogues every Sabbath.

JesusisLord85: hahahaha
We Nigerians (and various other groups of africans) circumcise and name our children on the 8th day beause this is one of the traditions our ancestors clinged to, after being "scattered" to the corners of the earth. We are Hebrews

Phillipians 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Bidam: Yeah..The brother is removing all those junks taught him by the sunday school teachers that Jesus came to abolish the law. Just like mosthigh pointed out a poignant point. How do i teach my children the bible? Should i tell them ok receive the Holy Spirit IJN? or should i with wisdom follow this wise sayings of Solomon.

Proverbs 22:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

JesusisLord85: This is why I say that, unless you embrace shdemidemi's two gospel myth (which I have dispelled severally), there is no way you can even begin to suggest that 'christians' don't have to keep God's commandments.
Despite this, they walk hand in hand...to the same destruction, lest they repent

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

You see why your reasoning is screqwed up? Your justification is that some sinless people today do not keep the law, therfore it must be ok?
Rabbinic jews rejected the Messaiah. And we know, they will accept a false messiah in the endtimes.

John 5: 43 "I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

The problem with your quote in Ephesians 2, is that it directly conflicts Matthew 5:17 and Romans 3:31

Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil".

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

The word abolished is here KATARGEHO, Strong's Gk. #2673). and interestingly, the same greek word is used here, as is used in Ephesians 2:15.
So what is the obvious conclusion, taking into account other scripture, and Strong's? That the translation is poor.

JMAN05:

You are quoting the words of Jesus to support that Jesus was not against the law and my "note" above addresses that point that Jesus was not against the law. the law ended AFTER his death. didnt I say so?

my brother, "telos" primary mean "end". the other one is "goal to end" not JUST goal. (exrgetic dictionary of the NT). from the context of that romans, end is the logical word to pick. can you say "I am... the beginning and the 'goal to end (or goal) (telos)'"? rev. 21:6. the context shows that end is the logical word. Strongs 5056: "(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit ie (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state...".

basically when something reaches its goal it ends. that is the sense telos convey. so the law points to Christ and ends after his death cos it has fulfilled its purpose. like i said above.

To get the full undrstanding, I sugegst you read this article:

http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/ 9706/970611_b.html

Shalom

MostHigh: Pual is you God

JMAN05: Are u ready to have this discussion following the format i said above?

1 corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth

JesusisLord85: Why do they like to argue about 'keeping the whole law'
Did not David commit adultery. Did not Abraham give his wife away to save his own skin.
Nobody was justified by keeping the law, no man can boast before God. Before Christ, they were saved by faith. After Christ, we are saved by faith. Only difference for the lawless is that they say they are now saved without any works.

1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Tgirl4real: Waiting for the concluding part...

BTW, can drummaboy n Jesusislord tell us what the torah is? I believe that this info will help us to be on the same page.

Torah (/ˈtɔːrə/; Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "Instruction", "Teaching"wink is a central concept in the Jewish tradition. It has a range of meanings: it can most specifically mean the first five books of the Tanakh, it can mean this plus the rabbinic commentaries on it, it can mean the continued narrative from Genesis to the end of the Tanakh, it can even mean the totality of Jewish teaching and practice.[1] Common to all these meanings, Torah consists of the foundational narrative of the Jewish people: their call into being by God, their trials and tribulations, and their covenant with their God, which involves following a way of life embodied in a set of religious obligations and civil laws (halakha).

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

JesusisLord85: ...for the simple minded

Goshen360: Good! If Christ is the END GOAL and\or THE END OBJECTIVES of the law, what does that mean? This is the best shot of scriptures you will ever have here. Doesn't it mean the law has an END OBJECTIVES and that end objective is CHRIST. Doesn't it mean, the law's end objectives is to end up in CHRIST - pointing to Christ? Doesn't it mean when one comes to CHRIST, the end objectives of the law is completed and is no longer needed? Doesn't it mean the law was to be a guardian UNTIL Christ should come? Doesn't it mean that as many as are in Christ, the law have been completed\ended its objectives? Doesn't it mean that when that END GOAL or OBJECTIVES are reached or fulfilled, such law is terminated, null and void? Now that the END OBJECTIVES or END GOAL of the law has been reached in CHRIST, what do you still need that law for? To retain you in Christ?

You're going from Lagos to Ibadan and your end objective is to get to Ibadan. You called a taxi and he drove you to Ibadan. Now your END OBJECTIVES is reached (to get to Ibadan); please tell us, do you still need the service of a taxi-man? You left Nigeria for the UK and now you living in UK, what law and\or constitution do you obey? UK or Nigeria? Christians lived UNDER a better covenant, NOT under the law because they now have the indwelling of the Spirit, replacement of the guardians of the law, Galatians 5:18; you're just simply not getting this simple truth. A GREAT CHANGE HAD HAPPENED SINCE THE TIME OF THE OUTPOURING OF THE SPIRIT - THE HOLY SPIRIT HAD REPLACED THE ROLE OF THE LAW GUIDING FOLKS UNDER THE LAW AND WHEN A BELIEVER IS LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, SUCH ARE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD AND ARE NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF MOSES NOR ARE THEY UNDER THE LAW.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
18 But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.

New Living Translation
But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But if you are led by The Spirit, you are not under The Written Law.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
If your spiritual nature is your guide, you are not subject to Moses' laws.

Galatians 5:18

YOU CAN'T BE LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND AT THE SAME TIME BE LED BY THE LAW. That's what Galatians 5:18 is saying. Read it again and understand. Led by the Holy Spirit = NOT under the law, not subject to the law. Flip the coin and see the other side: Being under the law or subject to the law = NOT led by the Spirit.

In other words, the law was our ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; an attendant slave who watched over a child in a wealthy Greco-Roman household] ·leading us to [or until] Christ so that we could be ·made right with God [declared righteous; justified] through faith. 25 Now ·the way of faith [L faith] has come, and we no longer live under a ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; v. 24]. Expanded Bible (EXB); Galatians 3:24-25

Amplified Bible (AMP)
24 So that the Law served [to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith. 25 But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a trainer (the guardian of our childhood).



New Living Translation
For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
4 For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.

Romans 10:4

shdemidemi:

burst loose exit mode activated by our ambiguous/equivocal friend....

Goshen360: ^ Bros, abeg PM me immediately with your mobile contact again. Its urgent!

JesusisLord85:

We also know that Jesus considered the "traditions of the elders" not equal to written Torah. Often times the oral tradition violated the written Torah (Mark 7:9).
Matthew 15:2-3
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

This verse gives real insight into the people that the apostles are confronting. Would they even be having this debate if the concern was the written Torah, the word of God? Of course not.

JesusisLord85:

Like Christ, the apostles upheld written Torah but rebuked those advocates of legalism, i.e. oral law. Basically, members of Pharisaic Judaism.

JesusisLord85:

So, to answer the first question, it is the Pharisees who are making the demands mentioned in Acts 15:5. The passage is dealing with whether the Gentiles needed to convert according to Pharisaic traditions, i.e. become proselytes to Pharisaic Judaism. How can they be talking about messianic Judaism, Jesus just spent his time teaching the Jews the scriptures, and now you’re saying they do away with all that? That is absurd.
We already know by checking other scriptures that Gentiles could be saved without going through the rituals of becoming a proselyte - the belief of Cornelius and his family confirms this (Acts 10).
To us, some 2000 years later circumcision is just one law out of the 613 laws in Torah. However, from the 1st century Pharisaic perspective, circumcision was the means by which one became a proselyte. (Notice I am not even talking about conversion to Christianity here. Jesus didn't even know what a Christian was. Chei.) That is why this ritual is being singled out as a demand apart from its inclusion in the Torah. Generally obeying the law is not the issue, this passage is bothered with how the Gentiles convert, and the requirements thereof.
Notice they didn’t complain that the Gentiles don’t keep kosher and the law, or the Sabbath and the law. The law already includes these things. It is singled out because it is what they consider to be the rites of passage to becoming a proselyte to Pharisaic Judaism.

It might sound absurd that circumcision had become a conversion ritual by the Pharisees, but today, baptism is sometimes misused as a means of joining a particular church. For example me refusing to be baptised in the Mormon church is my rejection of Mormonism, and NOT baptism per se!

The apostles rejected the Pharisaic demand that the Gentiles should undergo the Pharisaic circumcision ritual, AND NOT circumcision itself, that was not the debate. Why do you people imagine a vain thing?

At that time, the gospel was being received by Gentiles without them having to go through the conversion ritual of the Pharisees. God accepted the Gentiles as they were, hence he "made no distinction between us and them" (Acts 15:9).

"Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

JesusisLord85:

Side note: can Mr two-gospel shdemidemi explain how this Jew was preaching a gospel to the Gentiles that God had lead him to do? According to you, only Paul knew the full truth and that truth was given to the gentiles. lol

JesusisLord85:

Peter argued against the Pharisees, warning not to put a yoke on the new believers, a yoke neither they nor their fathers could bear; this yoke is the Pharisaic oral tradition. How can Peter be teaching that the commandments of God is bondage? That would be blasphemy!. Jesus said:

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

Now doesn’t that sound more like the yoke Peter is alluding to? The yoke many of you have blasphemously claimed is the very word of God?

See what Jesus also says to the Pharisees:
Mattew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

So we can see that the oral tradition of the Pharisees is a burden, NOT the commandments of the Most High God. God’s way is freedom, contrary to what many of you teach here:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach freedom to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18,19
This echos Isaiah 61:1 (please check, I'm trying to keep this tight, it is late)

Liberty is defined in Psalms 119:44-45
"So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts."

Leviticus 26:13
"I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright."

How can you say God brought them out of bondage, and gave them the instructions (his word, his Torah), which you also define as bondage? The traditions of man is the bondage.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

JesusisLord85:

Ok so let’s look at the demand by the Pharisees that the Gentiles keep the Law of Moses. To the Pharisees, the Law of Moses means both the written word (Torah) and the oral Torah (their traditions) – remember their dialogue with Jesus in Matthew 15:2-3. These people considered them equal. So when they say the Gentiles should keep the Law of Moses, they are not making any distinction between their traditions and the written Torah. Simple enough.

Let’s not forget that the Gentile’s were given four ‘starter laws’, and were to learn the rest of the law each week in the synagogues. And we know that these laws come from the Torah. Obviously, the apostles were not making up a new set of laws.
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."

I will go into detail why these are specifically mentioned as things the gentiles must adhere to immediately. That will come tomorrow. Early start tomorrow.

Shalom

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Colosians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.